Hallyx,

Haven't seen you post in the last couple of days, so I don't know if you're around or on "Easter Vacation". I would like to be able to say that our families have helped save another life in our Easter prayers, so would find it nice if you'd already sent off the $2.50.

Thanks in advance,

Frank

Oh well, since I am starting a thread on this, might as well explain for everyone else.

On this thread Link (near the bottom((long thread))) Hallyx wrote:

"I'll make an offer of $2.50 to anyone who can show me a critter that has ever existed that uses the principle of the wheel as we know it---a circular component revolving around an axle (or constrained axle revolving in a bearing, as the first wheels indeed were). Certain microbials may wave their flagellae, tentacles or tails in a circular fashion. As pointed out, some diatoms revolve their bodies around an axIS. But, as one of my engineering profs pointed out, the wheel may have been the first human artifact with no natural analog or model. "

Several posts later, she agreed that there is a wheel-like structure in nature posting:

"Well, Frank,

I wouldn't have bought off on it based on your link with it's funky hard-to-decipher sketch. But I've worked hard to give you my $2.50...and to allay my curiosity. Using the Google search engine (which I can't praise highly enough), I came across this marvelous animation of the Bacterial Flagellum and have to admit it meets all my qualifications as a wheel with axle. It even features a bearing/bushing element.

I could quibble that, since it was only discovered in 1973, that it could never have served as an analogue or model for the wheel. But I am so astounded that I consider the lesson worth $2.50 and the entertainment value plus a new trivia question even more.

Choose your charity, sir. I may up the contribution by ten times.

But I'm still not buying off on the ATP molecule until I see it work.

Hallyx "

To which my response was:

"Hallyx,

I've got to hand it to you, I looked around for ~1/2 hr. and that's the best net sketch I could come up with. Yours beat mine cold. I was thinking I'd have to scan in something, but by the time I figured out how to post that, it would be WAY cheaper for me to have kicked in the $2.50 myself.

I don't believe though, that this served as a *model* for the wheel we use, but I find it really fascinating that it exists at all. Most structures biological can't rotate freely as they're *attached* to something in a more-or-less permanent way.

ATP shouldn't be too bad to buy into, if only from a chemistry perspective. The more phosphates you add, the higher the energy. Strip them off one by one (generally) to deliver energy in discrete packets.

As for the charity, why not send it to your local Catholic church with a note to the priest to send it to a local anti-abortion group. (I'm kind of into the *life* sciences.)

Frank "

While no time frame was decided upon, I'd think it extra-special to have this done by Easter, and so the start of this thread. -F

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 21, 2000

Answers

Frank, will you please go away and get a life?

-- (Simon s@ys .so), April 21, 2000.

Simon,

No and No, by all indications....

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 21, 2000.

Hoop snakes. $2.50 please.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), April 21, 2000.

Lars -

You lost your bearings. Course correction required. :-]

-- DeeEmBee (macbeth1@pacbell.net), April 21, 2000.

Hallyx, don't send anything, but if you do, send it to Planned Parenthood.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 21, 2000.

HUH?

-- What (IsTheTopic@Here?.Com), April 21, 2000.

gilda, Planned Parenthood is your "charity"? They promote the killing of innocent life. But I bet you ARE against the death penalty. Were you a fan of Hitler as well?

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), April 21, 2000.

Gilda, being for population control myself, I can imagine how it could be very hard for Hallyx to come through on the deal they made. On the other hand, it's only $2.50. It's not going to make a difference to the pro-life organization itself, but might buy someone a coffee and donut. Would be a nice symbolic gesture from Hallyx who lost her argument and has enough integrity to pay up.

I would expect as much integrity from Frank if he had lost to send the $2.50 to planned parenthood, if that's what Hallyx wanted.

-- Ann A. Lyze (@ .), April 21, 2000.

Hey, why don't you lighten up on gilda, FactFinder? I suppose everyone who had a sirloin for dinner is also a fan of Hitler? We all have the right to an opinion. Why don't you do what your name implies?

-- Gia (laureltree7@hotmail.com), April 22, 2000.

Factfinder:

I've already had this discussion of Planned Parenthood on the EZBOARD, but Planned Parenthood does NOT PROMOTE abortion. They PROMOTE every possible alternative to unprotected sex that CREATES the pregnancy situation in the first place.

Once an undesired pregnancy takes place, they put absolutely NO emphasis on abortion as an alternative. I've no doubt that some would prefer that they lie and suggest that abortion is NOT a legal alternative, but in truth it IS. If women decide NOT to have an abortion, Planned Parenthood follows through with education, pre- natal care, etc.

Some folks don't like it that Planned Parenthood receives funding from our taxes. Some folks don't like it that Planned Parenthood teaches our sexually active daughters about birth control. These folks want our daughters to simply say "No." Well, our daughters aren't saying "No." They're interested in becoming sexually active and if their parents won't tell them how to prevent unwanted pregnancies, Planned Parenthood steps in to fill the gap.

It's unfortunate that sexual activity without appropriate education beforehand results in unwanted pregnancies. It's unfortunate that some folks refuse to teach their children about sex. It's unfortunate that kids want to have sex anyway. It's unfortunate that folks don't want kids to use birth control if they're going to have sex anyway. It's unfortunate that folks don't want to support the children of unwed mothers. It is NOT unfortunate that Planned Parenthood helps the kids that no one else wants to help.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 22, 2000.

Gilda, you said,

Hallyx, don't send anything, but if you do, send it to Planned Parenthood.

While I don't expect that you would agree with my choice of charities, I would NOT have expected you to encourage someone to renege on their responsiblities. Care to explain?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 22, 2000.

Hallyx, will you go ahead and send the priest the $2.50, so he can give it to the anti-abortion group, so they can go out and kill another doctor or bomb an abortion clinic. Of course that's not murder you understand. That's just saving "innocent lives." Never mind that religious fanatics always justify their most heinous deeds.

Fact Fouler, I most certainly DO support the death penalty. When I want you to bet on what I support, I'll ask you. BTW, you know less about Planned Parenthood than I know about rocket science. Your remark about me being a fan of Hitler is just typical crap I've heard all my life from good, loving, god-fearing Christians.

Ann, surely you missed the irony of my statement about Planned Parenthood. It was not to be taken literally. No lectures please. I get enough from these pseudo Christians. Frank does very well in the laying on of guilt and lecture department, without any help.

Thanks Anita for explaining what Planned Parenthood does and is. You're throwing pearls before swine, but I appreciate it anyway. I've been a member of Planned Parenthood for many years.

"The greatest evil always masquerades as the greatest good."

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 22, 2000.

Gilda,

Thanks! I guess I was wrong about you earlier, but we DO share the same beliefs as evidenced by your statement:

"Planned Parenthood: the greatest evil masquerading as the greatest good"

Happy Day,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 22, 2000.

Anita,

Puhleeeeeze!

Planned Parenthood is the biggest abortion machine in the country, PERIOD. Either you are mighty confused, or you are purposefully trying to cover up for this heinous organization that slaughters babies for PROFIT.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), April 22, 2000.

J, have you read "Women Who Kill" yet?

If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrilege.

-- viewer (justp@ssing.by), April 23, 2000.

My doctor said, "If men had to have the first baby, there would never be another one, and they'd have to take a year off to recover."

Isn't it funny how some men are so opposed to abortion, especially since they don't have to go through the pregnancy. I guess they consider their sperm to be a holy relics.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 23, 2000.

Gilda, you said,

Isn't it funny how some men are so opposed to abortion, especially since they don't have to go through the pregnancy. I guess they consider their sperm to be a holy relics.

No, some men just love their children, and think that they are living, breathing miracles.

Happy Easter everyone!

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 23, 2000.

Hallyx,

Are you back yet? Was hoping your donation would make it by Easter, but better late than never.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 24, 2000.

Last Friday, the smoke got out of my computer. As most of you know, electrical devices run on smoke. If the smoke gets out, they stop working.

I get back here after four days only to see my name on the New Topics list. I was mortified when I found out why. Now I'm insulted and offended. It won't be the first time that snert Frank has offended me. And I want to thank all you who have posted in my defense while I was away.

This afternoon, I had a beer with my old friend, Father David Perez of Our Lady Queen of Heaven parish church. Father Dave and I go way back to Viet Nam protest days. He was more of a hellraiser than even I. We play golf a couple times a year and share a beer or a doobie once in a while. Not for quite some time lately, so I was delighted to look him up.

Dave tells me that the Catholic church has no specified sanctioned organisation that councils against abortion. That's the purview of the parish priest. In other word's, Frank, you cheated! (Why am I not surprised?) I asked you to name your favorite charity; you made up some shit. Why should I feel obliged to fulfill my part of the bargain when you did not?

But I value my word. And I subscribe to Isaac Asimov's dictum: "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right." My principle of encouraging population reduction is not mortally compromised by my giving $2.50 against that effort. And, while that means putting my personal honor ahead of my principles, I only feel a little embarrassed.

On the other hand, you, sir, should be ashamed at abusing my good word. Knowing you as I now do, I'm sure that, had you lost, you would have quibbled and cavilled about contributing to, say, Planned Parenthood.(Heck, I even provided the evidence against my position, causing me to lose that bet.) And then, to compound your boorishness, you started a separate thread merely to question my integrity. That indicates a smarminess of which I neveren thought even you were capable.

To further expect that the timing of my payoff would or should in any way be constrained or encouraged by your celebration of your personal superstitious ritual, leaves me holding you in something beyond the dictionary definition of contempt.

If it makes you feel any better, on my way home from my lovely visit with an old friend, I stopped by the local chapter of Planned Parenthood and wrote them a check for twenty-five dollars, which was contributed in the name of Frank Someone. It was Father Dave's suggestion.

Hallyx

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."--- H.L. Mencken

-- (Hallyx@aol.com), April 25, 2000.

Ms. Hallyx, sorry to hear about your 'pooter. I think Frank was questioning your failure to respond, not your integrity. But I feel I missed something big: in what way did Frank "cheat"? And, although you were explicit about the $25.00 to PP, you were not concerning the $2.50. What did you do? I am always interested in reading your posts; helps my vocabulary.

Elbow

"contumelious"? :-) What an ugly sounding word.

-- LBO Grise (LBO Grise@aol.com), April 25, 2000.

Hallyx, man you really are a piece of work!

You said,

"Dave tells me that the Catholic church has no specified sanctioned organisation that councils against abortion. That's the purview of the parish priest. In other word's, Frank, you cheated! (Why am I not surprised?) I asked you to name your favorite charity; you made up some shit."

If you'd have bothered to read MY post, you'd see I said,

"As for the charity, why not send it to your local Catholic church with a note to the priest to send it to a local anti-abortion group.

NOWHERE did I say the Catholic church has an official anti-abortion group. Actually, my original intent was to have you send it to Operation Rescue, but figured letting you drop it off at your local RC church would be easier on YOU. Some grattitude.

As to this,

Why should I feel obliged to fulfill my part of the bargain when you did not?

I HAVE kept my end of the "bargain", but even if I didn't, you should still fulfill your part as that is a reflection on you. I would have, had I been in your shoes.

You also said,

On the other hand, you, sir, should be ashamed at abusing my good word. Knowing you as I now do, I'm sure that, had you lost, you would have quibbled and cavilled about contributing to, say, Planned Parenthood.

Nope. Save this post for later in case our situations are reversed. I live up to my word.

BTW, did you give the $2.50 to an anti-abortion group or not? Aside from all your invective, I can't tell from your post.

This should be a lesson for you Hallyx. If don't want to pay the fiddler, don't dance. Or in case that's too difficult to interpret for you, don't make bets if you don't feel like paying when you lose.

Frank

P.S. The other reason I said to give the $ to the R.C. church is that I'm reasonably sure their definition of abortion coincides with my own. This is not something I could trust to YOUR beliefs, as with a "pantheist" as people are not necessarily superior to animals or plants (all life forms) anti-abortion might in your scheme of things be taken to mean a donation to an animal shelter or organic gardening club. I don't know that, but didn't want to take the time to argue about it.

P.P.S. With regards to your computer failure, what kind of engineer has access to only one computer? None that I know. Now THAT would be considered questioning your integrity. -F

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 25, 2000.

Frank:

I hate to interrupt your fight with Hallyx, but I'd be interested in your comments on Paul and the bible in the Atheism thread.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 25, 2000.

[Frank] BTW, did you give the $2.50 to an anti-abortion group or not? I gave it (in cash) to Father Perez with instructions to give it to "some anti-abortion group" as per your request. And again you question my integrity (with a sly non sequitur about pantheism). You're so lucky this is online, punk.

... what kind of engineer has access to only one computer? None that I know. Now THAT would be considered questioning your integrity.

A RETIRED one, asshole.

Hallyx

"So many idiots. So few comets." ---Harlanquin

-- (Hallyx@aol.com), April 25, 2000.

Hallyx,

First, thanks for dropping off the $2.50 with father Perez. I'm sure he'll put it to good use. If in hindsight you feel that you have you have slandered me to him (with statements along the

"In other word's, Frank, you cheated!...I asked you to name your favorite charity; you made up some shit."

vein, I'll assume in advance that you'll call him and correct them. You could be really big and apologize to me as well. :-) But, I don't expect it, so don't feel obliged.

Also, you said, "You're so lucky this is online, punk. "

Hallyx, we may disagree about some things, but on this we are 100% on the same page. If you were my next door neighbor I'd have to either move or shoot myself. And thanks for the expletive. It's quite becoming.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 25, 2000.

I can actually put myself in Hallyx's and Frank's shoes, and I'd react exactly the same way as both have :-)

This is great to watch, safely online, far from the flying objects :-)

-- (spectator@spectrum.com), April 25, 2000.