Greetings: I recently heard a priest talk about Lucifer, the "Prince of Darkness", and he mentioned that "soon you will be able to read about Lucifer's fall from grace, in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church". In another part of his talk he mentioned that "1/3 of the angels fell from grace with Lucifer". Does anyone have any information about this topic? I haven't been able to find it anywhere in the CCC. Is there a new one coming out shortly? Ed

-- Ed Lauzon Sr. (grader@accglobal.net), April 20, 2000

Answers

Welcome back, Ed!

If you "recently heard a priest [say that we] ... soon ... will be able to read about Lucifer's fall from grace, in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church," I hope that you were listening to, or watching, a tape made in the early 1990s. There is no new CCC on the way to being published. It was published first in French (1992), then translated into English (1995), then placed in its final, official form in Latin (including several small changes) around 1998. If you actually heard a "live" priest say that "you will be able to read about Lucifer's fall from grace," perhaps he simply meant, "as soon as you lay hands on a Catechism."

Most of the Catechism's references to the devil/satan are in paragraphs 391 to 395 (under the subheading, "the fall of the angels"). There is no CCC reference to a third of the angels falling from grace with Lucifer. That concept (which we are permitted to believe) is a private interpretation of a passage from the famous 12th chapter of the Book of Revelation (Apocalypse). This interpretation is widely accepted among Catholics, having been mentioned in the old (1913) Catholic Encyclopedia. Here are some verses from Revelation 12:
3: And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads.
4: His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. ...
7: Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
8: but they were defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
9: And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world -- he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

As you can see, there is a bit of uncertainty. If the dragon swept down a third of the stars [angels?] of heaven and cast them to the earth (verse 4), why did Michael and his angels have to throw down the dragon and his angels from heaven (verse 8) to the earth (verse 9)? Perhaps, in verse 4, "a third of the stars" are not actually symbolic of rebellious angels. Or perhaps they are angels, and we ought not to accept the order of verses in chapter 12 as a strict chronological telling of the events. The bottom line is that there is no clear-cut accounting, in public revelation, of just how many angels God created and just how many rebelled.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), April 20, 2000.

Thanks John. You are correct in assuming I heard these statements on a tape. You've been very helpful in clearing this up for me. Have a blessed Easter.

-- Ed Lauzon Sr. (grader@accglobal.net), April 21, 2000.

Hello, all. I have a different question but the same topic. I was doing some work last night. I was painting one of my "angel buddies" that sit on your monitor. Anyways, I've done these in various colors, for selection. People can pick their favorite color then. So, I was doing one in red. And as I sat there painting, I started to think "um, maybe I shouldn't do an "angel buddy" in red". It got me to thinking about why we associate red with the devil. Is it from movies we've seen portraying the devil as red with little horns and a long tail, holding a pitchfork? Or is it from the references to fire in the Bible? Which led to another train of thought.....Why did God throw Satan and his followers down to Earth? Why not just throw him into Hell then and be done with it? I got my Bible out and started to read Revelations. It said that he was put in the bottomless pit and locked up for a thousand years and then released "for a little while". And then he was let out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, in order to gather them for battle...Later, fire came down from heaven and consumed then. And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. So, we are taught that Hell is not so much fire and brimstone but our agony will be being separated from our God for all eternity. I can understand that but how will that be agony for the devil and his followers when they have already turned their backs on God? Is it the fire and sulphur that will torment them? And it also says in Revelations that the dead will be resurrected. Aren't we taught that when we die we immediately go to Heaven, Hell or purgatory? So, is the resurrection of our bodies? Ok....that's enough questions for one day. Have a good one. God Bless.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), April 21, 2000.

Hi, jackiea. Welcome back to you too.
About "red" and devils ... Did you notice this verse from Revelation 12 that I quoted above?
3: And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads.

Another verse to consider:
Isaiah 1:18 -- "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD:
though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.

And from the infamous "harlot of Babylon passage:"
Revelation 17:3 -- And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns.

About suffering in hell, you wrote: "So, we are taught that Hell is not so much fire and brimstone but our agony will be being separated from our God for all eternity. I can understand that but how will that be agony for the devil and his followers when they have already turned their backs on God? Is it the fire and sulphur that will torment them? And it also says in Revelations that the dead will be resurrected. Aren't we taught that when we die we immediately go to Heaven, Hell or purgatory? So, is the resurrection of our bodies?"

What we, on this earth, call "fire and sulphur" are physical things involving chemical properties and energies that can corrode or destroy other physical things. Angels (both bad and good) are pure spirits that totally lack the fleshy bodies of humans, so worldly physical things (natural disasters, chemicals, fire, weapons, etc.) have no effect on them at all. [God can permit angels temporarily to take on the appearance of human beings or animals, so that we can see them for some special reason.]

When we "die," our bodies are either buried (and usually decay to dust) or are cremated. But our souls separate from our bodies, are immediately judged by God (the "particular" judgment), and go to heaven, hell, or (temporarily) purgatory. Like angels, our souls are spiritual entities and thus cannot be harmed by mere physical things such as worldly fire and sulphur.

Our bodies, at the end of time, will be resurrected in a new "glorious" form and will be reunited with our souls for the "general" judgment and final disposition. [God's decision at our particular judgment will not change at the general judgment, but will simply be made known to all other men and angels, so that His perfect justice may be shone forth.]

I don't believe that God has clearly revealed to us all the characteristics of a resurrected, glorious body, though we have some notions from what Jesus was like from Easter to the Ascension. One thing for sure is that a resurrected body cannot be destroyed/consumed the way our mortal bodies can be -- but perhaps it is capable of the utmost imaginable physical pain. We do not really know if the "fire" and "sulphur" of hell are truly physical tortures that can be inflicted eternally on resurrected bodies (without destroying them). The "fire" and "sulphur" of hell could instead be symbolic language to denote a kind of non-physical, but equally intense and eternal, torture to which the souls already in hell today are subjected.

About the punishment of devils ...
From the moment they sinned, their hell -- for all eternity -- began. The Catechism says this about hell, with relation to man, but I think that it could be applied just as well to bad angels: "(1035) ... The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs." Devils must long to be back in heaven, for which they were created, but constantly are reminded that they never will be there again.

At the end of time, the devils' torture will -- if it is possible -- be intensified, as they will no longer even be able to tempt men to sin and to share their misery.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), April 21, 2000.

"and go to heaven, hell, or (temporarily) purgatory"

John: here I go again: how can we speak of time referring to Purgatory? Once we leave this world we are supposed to be in Eternity! No space, no time.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), April 22, 2000.

Dear Enrique,
No one has said you must necessarily leave this world, or ''time'', upon entering Purgatory. --Or, for that matter Hell. All those points are mysteries to us. It's Church Militant here, Church Suffering, and Church Triumphant.

Purgatory is Church Suffering. Heaven and Hell are eternal, the rest is here.

-- Eugene Chavez (rechavez@popmail.ucsd.edu), April 22, 2000.

Oh-oh >>> I meant, here, within a time and space boundary? It is God's creation, after all.

-- Eugene Chavez (rechavez@popmail.ucsd.edu), April 22, 2000.

Hello, friends, and a blessed Easter to all today. (Yes, every day from the past Sunday through the Sunday to come is all one big "Easter day," liturgically speaking, for our Church.)

I understand the difficulty you are raising again, dear Enrique. After I spoke of on staying "temporarily [in] Purgatory," you reminded me: "how can we speak of time referring to Purgatory? Once we leave this world we are supposed to be in Eternity! No space, no time."

We poor humans seem unable to help ourselves from slipping into speech about the "afterlife" that involves terminology more appropriate only to our our mortal lives. But wait a moment. Perhaps I am not wrong to speak of "temporarily [in] Purgatory." Oh, perhaps there are not seconds, minutes, hours, days, etc. in that "state." But there must be something akin to "duration." Yes, heaven and hell have no time, being eternal. But Purgatory is not eternal. It is "temporary," having a beginning and an end (when it is emptied at last).

Even our Blessed Lord made use of this terminology in an oblique reference to Purgatory. In a parable, he spoke of the unjust servant being thrown into prison and not being released until he had paid the last penny that he owed.

We (properly) pray for the release of the souls of our deceased loved ones from Purgatory. This would make no sense if there were not some form of "duration" in the state of purification/preparation of souls.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), April 27, 2000.

I have no information on the CCC, but this I do know: it was approximately 1/3 of the stars (angels)(not exactly 1/3). Also, the bible gives many examples of the vastness of the heavenly host. When Christ returns he will come in His glory ,His Father's glory and thousands upon thousands, ten thousand times ten thousand, just to list one. Those who will be saved will be in the billions. Think about how many people have lived and died since the beginning of mankind (over 47 billion?). Only God, the Father, will close the Book of Life and only He knows when that will be. When it is finished and the book is closed, every fallen angel will be replaced with a saved human life (the children of God). This is why Satan seeks to destroy mankind. Every life he destroys buys him more time to destroy more lives in hopes to continue the deception, that God and heaven do not exist. If you want more, let me know. Thank you

-- Robbin Hunter (rhmb99@aol.com), October 31, 2001.