Your thoughts on Suicide

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TB2K spinoff uncensored : One Thread

I am a long time lurker and this is my first time posting. I would like to hear your views on Suicide. Last week I lost a very close relative to suicide. This person was a Christian and believed suicide to be wrong even sinful. This person had even told their son that suicide was a permanent solution to a temporary problem. The person left no letter so we have no answers to what they were thinking. We are just all very confused and sad. The person was in good health and only middle aged. We think the person may have been clinically depressed and was a recovering alcoholic who was drinking at the time on death. I was just curious what people felt about suicide. What do you think happens to such a person and what do you believe as Christians and also other religions too. What do you believe your God thinks about such an act?

-- Missy (lonely@ now.com), April 18, 2000

Answers

I find it hard to believe that anyone with such strong convictions on the subject, would go against them like that. I was always taught that harming yourself in such a manner would keep you from heaven.

Are they absolutely sure it was suicide? Was any foul play completely ruled out?

I am very sorry about your loss, especially for the children. My condolences.

-- something (sounds @fishy.here), April 18, 2000.


Missy-

I have lost a couple of relatives to suicide, and a close friend as well. It is very hard to lose someone in this way. I'm not a religious person,and I believe that this life is all that we have, so I feel especially sad when I hear about someone wasting their life in this manner.

It is my feeling that the legacy we leave behind us is in the lives that we touch. It's only when someone is gone that we truly see the impact they had on us. Every time I cook a certain dish, I remember my grandmother. Every time I see someone who looks like they might be in trouble, I remember a very close friend I lost to suicide, and I take time to be kind and help them if I can. When I lost a cousin to suicide, I began to do volunteer work for a crisis hotline in my area, and was inspired to help hundreds of people in that way. In turn, I have touched the lives of others, who have gone on and made a difference in small and large ways. What a great legacy for my cousin to have!

You are richer for having known the person you have lost, and he has touched your life in a way that you will discover through time. Your loss will be with you always, but likewise that presence and influence will persist. I mourn your loss, and I hope that you find the energy and the stregth to acknowledge it and find some good there.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 18, 2000.


Something-

Depression and suicide hit all races, religions, and socio-economic group. Everyone is at risk of despair. Untreated clinical depression, coupled with substance abuse, can make anyone set aside their religious convictions in search of solace.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 18, 2000.


I'M THERE, and why not. I invested in gold and it refuses to go up even with inflation. So if gold does not respond I guess I will be one more dead goldbug. WHY WHY WHY is this happening.

-- GOLD LOSER (goldloser@and.lose), April 18, 2000.

I'm against it.

-- Uncle Bob (unclb0b@aol.com), April 18, 2000.


I agree that there are mental or substance-induced pathologies that can lead to murder or suicide.

But what about the rational, sober person? Is suicide ever conceivable for such a person? Although I believe suicide is a self-indulgent, immoral act that is an in-your-face to God who gave us life, I can imagine situations where I might do it:

1)-If by some act of my own, I were to cause an an enormous tragedy to others--for example if I were to head-on a school bus. I don't think I could live with that; I don't think I would deserve to live.

2)-Wusss that I am, I can imagine suicide if in enormous, untreatable physical pain-- due to cancer, vehicle accident, war injury, whatever.

3)-If something horrible were to happen to a person or persons that I loved--the loss of children, the loss of a spouse; especially a senseloss loss.

4)-If something were to happen close to me that is so monstrous that I would lose all my faith. I say "close" because there are horrible things happening everywhere, all the time--but I am not directly in contact so these things don't cost me any sleep. Genocide in the Balkans? Oh, that's just another TV show. Genocide in my own neighborhood, now that's serious.

I think that the will to suicide can be strongest at an intermediate age. No baby is born that wants to die. Everyone is born with a life-force that energizes us to live without even thinking about it. Likewise, when we get old, it is relatively easy to opt away from suicide because we are almost at the end anyhow; why not just stick it out? It is the younger adult who has the greatest risk of feeling hopeless enough to commit suicide.

Suicide is an issue like abortion, capital punishment and euthanasia that can be rationalized in so many ways.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), April 18, 2000.


Depression can be caused by mental illness. Individuals can not be held responsible for their actions in such cases.

-- walt (longyear@shentel.net), April 18, 2000.

Gold Loser,

how much did you invest, and at what price? I invested 3k at $300/oz last year, stayed pretty much the same over 12 months. Right now I'm losing $20/oz, but it went up a couple months ago. Thinking of keeping the shiny new coins as collector's item, they might be worth something to my grand-kids, I'm not strapped for money.

If you bought yours at around the same time at same price, you might want to cut your losses and sell now. It's nothing to get overly depressed over, it's just money! Think of those who love you, they'll love you no matter what.

-- (nuggets@pocket.s), April 18, 2000.


My mom tried to commit suicide when she saw her mate of 54 years growing skinnier and skinnier from the cancer that was consuming his body. He refused to go to a doctor and be treated.

With the help of anti-depressants and a good psychiatrist, she recovered from her depression, weaned HERSELF from the anti- depressants, and is now alive and kicking at almost 87. I forced dad to get treatment after mom's suicide attempt. Of COURSE it was too late to save him, but he had surgery and lived a painless 5 months longer.

To be honest, I got pretty pissed off at relatives who told mom that what she'd done was simply WRONG. They had no idea how low she had sunk into depression. THEY weren't there to hear how she told me to get out every time I visited her in the mental ward at the hospital. They weren't there to hear how she didn't want to live if dad weren't at her side any longer. They weren't there to hear "Why didn't you just let me die?" They weren't there to bounce back and forth between a mom in one hospital and a dad in another. They weren't there to sell their house and move them into a facility where they could spend their last months together with trained staff to handle any emergencies that arose. They weren't there AT ALL, except to say, "You were wrong."

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 18, 2000.


Suicide is always a response to a situation the person finds intolerable. It is never undertaken lightly. Anyone can commit suicide, given the right set of factors, regardless of their beliefs. Some people will seek help more readily than others and they will usually fare better than those who don't know how to ask for help.

Very often, in hindsight, the situation could have become more tolerable with the addition of some missing factor. Sometimes what was needed was medicine. Or love and companionship. Or financial aid. Or hope. Or just a shoulder to cry on. But, it is rarely as simple and easy as it may look in hindsight.

As someone else pointed out, clinical depression is very often associated with suicide and it can be treated. The success of the treatment has improved greatly in the past decade, but it still varies. Not everyone responds well to anti-depressant drugs.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), April 18, 2000.



Nuggets

3k whats that. Gee my bike costs more than that. I have well over a mill. in rare coins and gold coins and gold stocks. If it was 3k I was worried about, you would never hear from me. Lets get real pal, I made a bet and my life is on the line here. I'm hanging on even if it costs me my life. Inflation is here and in a few more months more people will be wrong than right in the stock market. Who knows anymore, but I can't give up now.

-- GOLD LOSER (GOLDLOSER@AND.LOSE), April 18, 2000.


Missy,

I believe that God views us as his children. Having children of my own, I can say he's probably much more forgiving of us than we are of ourselves, and our own failings. Don't worry about it. Whatever problems your friend had on Earth are over now.

Also, while I do think it's possible for someone to turn their back on God so completely as to go to Hell, I don't believe God sends people there who really don't want to go.

I see suicide as people struggling with a weight they just can't bear. I'd bet they'll welcome the chance to drop their burden and embrace the Lord. So for your friend, I'd say they're in a better place.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 18, 2000.


GOLD LOSER I felt sorry for you until just now.

If you have a million dollars in gold coins, you're not hurting financially. Even if you take a HUGE loss, you'll have more money than a hell of a lot of people.

I would never, ever kick a guy when he's down, but unless I'm missing something here, you really are shallow.

Knock it off; quit playing with our emotions.

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), April 18, 2000.


If the suicide was done during a time of mental illness(what else could you call depression), I believe that God is more merciful than we are, and all would probably be forgiven.

-- r (r.1@juno.com), April 18, 2000.

Missy, there seems to be mounting evidence of a peacefull afterlife coming from people who have been clinically dead and brought back. While some people did experience what might have been considered a hell, they were the ones who expected as much. There were several attempted suicides checking in with stories of a mercifull God and a wonderfull experience. They returned to their lives with renewed faith and happiness. I'm sure your friend is doing well as a spiritual being, and has found the peace they were lookign for.

-- kritter (kritter@adelphia.net), April 18, 2000.


Missy, I lost my greatest friend this way.You have had some really great answers & I can't add much to them except to tell you how I dealt with it.8 years on & emotionally I still cannot believe how it came to pass.Rational explanations are there,I know.

My last act for David was to go to the Chancel in Canterbury Cathedral early in the morning when nobody was about.I said a prayer & then gathered my rememberances & my love and tossed it high into the sanctified space into God's safekeeping.

Would I have done anything differently in the months before it happened?I would now knowing just how much depression can corrupt the "normal" thinking patterns.David was an articulate & educated person who also believed that suicide was "a cowards"way out.Will his soul find rest?I believe so because depression is an illness.

People say that time is a great healer.I'm not sure about that but time does have away of blunting the impact of those memories.The first three months are usually the worst.It took me about a year before I was able to feel reasonably in control again most of the time. Go get some books out the library & read about how to cope with bereavement.(isn't "Cope" a silly term?)Some of the side effects can be weird ..like panic attacks. Read slushy poems,cry buckets of tears for the both of you.

Above all,hang in there,I'm rooting for you.

-- Christine (chrisgibbs@griffenmill.com), April 18, 2000.


Lars,

Good list...it reminds me of someone who hasn't been around here lately. Has anyone heard from Shakey?

-- (wonderin@here.now), April 18, 2000.


I don't think that people want to stop living when they commit suicide, I believe they want to stop the pain they are living with. Anita, and others who have experienced losses, my heart goes out to you. I have spent the past 8 months trying to make my Father understand that he is still needed and deeply loved by so many so he would not give up on life after my Mother, to whom he had been married for 52 years, died. It appears to be working, for which I am extremely grateful. I realise he is almost 80 and will not live forever, but there is no physical reason for his death at this time.

I do not want to have to live through the pain of loosing him so soon after the loss of my mother. Unfortunately, due to the death of two of my own children, a brother, a best friend and then my Mother, I know what extreme pain to expect with the death of loved ones and although it does not come as a shock, it is still extremely painful to live through.

I realized finally months after the death of my first son that it was not that I did not want to live, it was that I did not want to live with such extreme emotional pain. I forced myself to give myself a goal to work towards so I would look towards the future so I was not consumed by the pain I did not want to live with.

People in pain can be helped to understand the difference. Others should not feel guilty if they are not aware of the extent of the pain a loved one is experiencing, for a lot of times they do not show it outwardly.

I do not believe that people who commit suicide are cowards, I think they are only human.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), April 18, 2000.


Missy,

I know not the answer, but i believe God understands. We may not, but the Supreme Being does. There are several things in my life I resist, suicide(because I believe that I am important), murder, (because I believe they are important, (in the eyes of one more than I.)

I tonight was very frusterated. I went and sat on the mountain, and looked at the world. The birds are free, the puppies that followed me up the mountain are more free than me. I take care of the birds and the puppies the best I can. I believe, that when one is totally hopeless, God understands, and all one has to do is try again. I believe he gives us the beauty of the world to help us through the rough times... it takes some a few lives to figure it out tho. Bless you and yours.

Salene

-- salene (salene814@hotmail.com), April 18, 2000.


What beautiful words, of one trying to help another human through their trials of life, I sit with slow tears, cascading down my face. Now, if only we could get the ear deafening commercial of "Gold Loser, Gold Lame' off this post, how the hell did they appear anyway? Distraction, probably. Job, in the Bible was a throughly miserable person, yet, he believed until he was delivered. Somewhere Jesus said "There is nothing another human can do to you". I figure this covers all the murders, the wars, the concentration camps. Consider that human is spirit and human. If the spirit chooses to die, as a last resort, when they have rejected every offer of human intervention, then let that Spirit go. However, If no one has made a human effort to reach and touch that human spirit, then the Pox, lies upon their soul. I lost my only Sister, through her means of this Skin Escape. I still miss her.

-- Suicide (as@lastresort.com), April 18, 2000.

I believe God loves each of His cildren, even if we hurt ourselves. I do not believe He would add to this hurt.

-- brock gannon (brockgannon@gnc.net), April 18, 2000.

Hi Missy,

I'm sorry for your loss and I hope this helps,if even a little, to understand and cope with your grief and maybe to get a glimpse into what your relative was possibly going through.

I'm gonna tell you a story about a guy named Capnfun,it may be a little abstract but hopefully it's as close as you'll ever come to understanding.

There once was this guy called Capnfun,he was 19 when he met the girl of his dreams,his soulmate,he had known it from the moment he saw her in a supermarket working at the produce stand.Well as things turned out they fell in love and lived together for about 2yrs.

But Capn being young and stupid had to see what life "out there" had to offer and did just that.

Two years or so later Capn realized he had made the mistake of his life and swore if he could ever find her again, his life was hers.

But after giving up and 9 years later guess what? he found her!!! But she was married,(very,very unhappily,and another story)But it turns out she had never quit loving him either and both had been longing AND searching for each other.

They did get married and were happier than anyone can imagine,even though anyone could see it their faces,life was great.

But she suddenly dies of accute asthma attack,life is fucked!!!

Normally cool Capn goes into a tailspin,wacked,don't give a shit for nothing.

BUT THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM KNEW NOTHING OF THE SORT.They thought he was coping as well as could be expected,he wasn't.

Capn had some thoughts runnin round in his head,he didn't see the point in seeing the sun come up the next day and didn't care if it did or didn't,he silently sank into the bottom of the darkest depths while those around him lived in their fantasy world.

He sat there at night,drinking to try and help himself escape from the absence that constantly stood beside him,finally, to the point that he had no reason to go on.

So he made a little contraption that could pull both triggers on a 12 gauge,it would work,and it made him happy.But this wasn't the only death attempts that were visited and played as if a game of chance.

Because life wasn't worth a fuck,without her his existence was meaningless.It was something that he could never fully describe to anyone,so why attempt it? No one could ever imagine.

But how could someone who in the past had labeled suicide as the cowards way out even think about doing his own self in? Simple,everything else in life had ceased to exist,the only thing left was the nothingness that is the present,the past is daunting and the future,there is NO future.Love,hate,happy,sad is replaced by a numbness that is only equaled by death,but not nearly as comfortable, or so you think.

So Capn is ready to do the deed,he sits and stares night after night at the invention,all the while becoming more at ease with the inevitable.Until one night when after another stupor decides it's time,adios,but then his two dogs freak out,wierd,twighlight zone shit,makes him have a sudden rush of the rational,if the dogs are gonna be this wierd,what are my mom and dad gonna think? What is God gonna think? Am I a pussy?Am I hurting her?The list is as endless as the reasons thought about suicide.

Capn destroyed that invention, and with it all his inclinations of self destruction,he started living again from that day on.

Till this day he still has "that void", but at least he has tomorrow and the hope and the desire to live life as if it were Her last.

You should realize that your relatives actions were not thought out involving anyone but "them", there is only a tunnelvision that magnifies within "them" and it is totally negative.Nothing else exists,just escape.

This to me is a "part" of the answer to your question, and sometimes, there just aren't any answers.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), April 19, 2000.


Hi Misssy

And welcome. First off, Sorry about the loss. Clinical Depression can be a factor with recovering alcoholics.

Drinking at the time of death perhaps to help w/the depression. I too had a friend who did the same, same situation. Very sad. He was a good man, fell out of his relationship w/God, but Still had a love for God in his heart.

It took me awhile, but I finally went to visit his grave and asked God to forgive him. Again, substance abuse for him was a major problem.

Although I am not a practicing Christian now, I will say that GOD and GOD only reserves judgement.

I believe God looks on our hearts and God will have mercy upon whom He chooses....

My personal view on suicide is this, I believe the person who does so is or can not be in right frame of mind. I believe it is a selfish act. Leaving behind many to 'wonder' and retain 'guilt'.

As it is often said, Alcoholism leads to 3 things:

1. Jail

2. Mental Institutions

3. Death

No in betweens. Except ACTIVE recovery.

Any who JUDGES your friend is wrong. Remember GOD is our judge.

Try the graveside praying, it did help.

Hope I helped. and hey, keep posting if you can put up with us...(BIG SMILE)

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), April 19, 2000.


Thanks everyone. Your opinions have helped and are appreciated.

-- Missy (feeling@alittle.better), April 19, 2000.

Oh, man, Capnfun, you just made me cry real tears. I don't think I want to ever love anyone that deeply after reading what you went through.

I'm so sorry for your loss.

Those words seem so inadequate, but I truly do feel grief for you right now. However, I'm also feeling hopeful that someday, you'll be able to replace that happiness you lost. Personally, I think dogs and cats are a great start. I don't know how many times a wag and a lick has pulled me out of the dumps!

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), April 19, 2000.


That last post just gave me a thought. People, please adopt your pets from your local Humane Society. If you buy them from most pet stores, you're supporting puppy mills. Please don't do that if you love animals.

Thanks for letting me get in the plug :o)

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), April 19, 2000.


Laura,

As I said that was just a "part" of the whole story,to help Missy understand her relative.Things are very much brighter today and such thoughts no longer have a place in my life,I was lucky in that a set of circumstances changed the direction of where I had found myself.Do not be sad,as this has allowed me a unique vantage point in helping many others and I am far removed from those days of despair.

Life is very good.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), April 19, 2000.


Capn,

~~~~~~~~~~things are much better today, could it be you FINALLY invested in that hottub sweetie?.....big smirk ....

Sad story, hard to imagine capn that you went thru that. with your humor, it is understandable how nobody caught on.

<<<< giggle.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), April 19, 2000.


Consumer: Shut up.

-- U.R. (notthe@judge.here), April 19, 2000.

HI HAWK,

UNDERCOVER I SEE?

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), April 19, 2000.


Consumer,

I don't think I have as much fun with hot tubs as you do ; )

But I have heard stories, hehehehe.

As a sidenote,I kinda wish I would have had this or some other internet place when all the bad stuff went down,I can see that it might have been beneficial.Food for thought.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), April 20, 2000.


I second that capn. I just posted on the lonely thread i think it was called anyway. This place is da bomb. Taking your advice, as you can see...(snicker) and avoiding certain situations DOES help.

Hey capn,

Thanks for being a friend.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), April 20, 2000.


Consumer,

Anytime hon: )

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), April 20, 2000.


Capnfun,

I've often wondered if/how a life-altering event could/would substantially impact one's life for the better.

I'd love to hear more about your feelings on this. Is that your real address?

-- (Cool @down with .me), April 20, 2000.


Cool,

Yes.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), April 20, 2000.


Missy,

I am so sorry for your loss. There is nothing like it. I lost my best friend to suicide 3 and a half months ago, and still feel raw, lost and lonely without her. Give yourself the time to grieve, however long it takes. I still find myself crying at the drop of a hat. I also feel tremendous anger towards her. She was married to my cousin, so now I see what this has done to him and he is devested, after finding her hanging from the rafters of their garage. Granted, she felt justified in her act; she had MS and just couldn't deal with it any longer. But he would have taken care of her forever. She was on a new drug that may have helped her, but she didn't give it time. SHe had been suffering for 8 years, the last 2 the worst. Not yet confined to a wheelchair, but nearly. Only 34. I miss her so, and only wish I could have done more to help. My cousin is so lost now, I fear he will join her soon. Horrible to say, but he won't think about therapy or support groups or anything. We try to keep him busy...sorry to ramble about my loss, just so fresh to me. I feel compassion for you and what you are going through. It is VERY hard...

Maria

-- Maria (jm6566@aol.com), April 20, 2000.


Maria,

I'm sorry for your loss and would like to give you an idea to help your cousin,If he doesn't allready have one, get him a puppy or a dog/pet that needs his attention.This is one of the best things anyone can do for him because it will take his mind off her if only for small amounts of time but enough so that the bad thoughts are not constant.It will also give him something to care for and something that needs him and will love him back.

This was one of those special circumstances that absolutely helped me out of the abyss.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), April 20, 2000.


I agree with Capt'n.

I got my Dad a very obknoxous half Siamese cat that absolutly rules his life and demands a lot out of him. For Christmas he got smokey (the cat) a high riase cat condo which is next to the bed Dad sleeps in. The cat adores Dad and will "high five" him as well as protect Dad from all the kids and grandkids that invade the house from time to time. The cat is in tune with his physical and emotional health. Dad cant even go to the bathroom without the cat parking himself outside the door to wait for him to come out. Pets can be a big help to people who are suffering grief.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), April 21, 2000.


Cherri, you are the pimple on nose of a 10th Grade Student, I cannot believe the conspiracy in one unkind human to another, that I have witnessed. A Pox to your arm pits, may your flesh itch and burn. Oh yes, May your nose fall off, in the process.

-- Cherri is (in@nothercountry.com), April 21, 2000.

Missy,

In February, I lost my 'baby brother' {the brother of my nearly- lifelong best friend} to suicide. My elderly father-in-law had died the day before, my Mother was in the midst of heart attacks...but 34 year old Michael's self inflicted departure has been the most difficult to cope with.

At this point my deepest feeling is of regret that he was in so much pain that I didn't realize, and was unable to help...

My condolences go out to you & yours.

A PS to Cherri,

My stepdad said when his first wife was dying of cancer, that if he hadn't had the dog to take care of - he would've killed himself. This is not a depressive type of guy, just someone in the midst of a seemingly unbearable situation. You did the right thing with the cat, psycho cats may be even better - because they are such unsympathetic characters for most everyone else.

-- flora (***@__._), April 24, 2000.


Moderation questions? read the FAQ