Making ones live dependant upon what there stars say imples major psychological problems in ones life. As you may reach into a veil of mysticism to find purpose. For a price, astrology will offer an explanation and purpose to life. Unfortunately, the hidden price is one's own dignity and sense of free will.

Astrology is the notion that the position of the planets during and after birth affects people's lives and fortunes. Without a shred of collaborating evidence, they continue to market their flawed goods.

Astrology is a part of a larger body of mysticism. Mysticism is the acceptance of allegations without proof, apart from or against evidence of one's reason. All mysticism hinges on deliverance in the unknown, unseeable, or the afterlife.

It is pitiful when the only good things in life are seen as conjecture, whim, or supernatural.

Astrology is not bad because it may give bad advice, it is bad because it teaches that the future is out of our control. Consultation with one's own faculty of reason, however dismal the future may be, is always preferable to a positive future foretold by an ignorant crystal ball.

Everyone enjoys to spend time with someone who listens and offers encouragement, but this should not cloud judgment and rule ones life. The Astrologer makes broad encouraging predictions that have nothing to do with reality, but do make some people feel better.

Those who consult Astrology need a FRIEND, not someone who takes their money and delivers wishy-washy news of the future.

*************Or said another way********

Making ones live dependant upon what "Y2K experts" say imples major psychological problems in ones life. As you may reach into a veil of mysticism to find purpose. For a price, "Y2K experts" will offer an explanation and purpose to life. Unfortunately, the hidden price is one's own dignity and sense of free will.

"Y2K " is the notion that the position of the "date" during and after rollover affects people's lives and fortunes. Without a shred of collaborating evidence, they continue to market their flawed goods.

Y2K doomerism is a part of a larger body of mysticism. Mysticism is the acceptance of allegations without proof, apart from or against evidence of one's reason. All mysticism hinges on deliverance in the unknown, unseeable, or the afterlife.

It is pitiful when the only good things in life are seen as conjecture, whim, or supernatural.

Y2K doomerism is not bad because it may give bad advice, it is bad because it teaches that the future is out of our control. Consultation with one's own faculty of reason, however dismal the future may be, is always preferable to a positive future foretold by an ignorant crystal ball.

Everyone enjoys to spend time with someone who listens and offers encouragement, but this should not cloud judgment and rule ones life. The "Y2K expert" makes broad encouraging predictions that have nothing to do with reality, but do make some people feel better.

Those who consult "Y2K experts" need a FRIEND, not someone who takes their money and delivers wishy-washy news of the future.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), April 17, 2000

Answers

Cherri, be quiet. Are you having another one of your headaches? THAT would account for why you are so looney!

-- (Migranes @re part of . Cherri), April 17, 2000.

Cherri, all that your post proves is that you know nothing about astrology. Have you even read one book about the subject?

-- Mr. Pinochle (pinochledd@aol.com), April 17, 2000.

Such neediness in your post,... Cherri what's your sign? :)

-- Will (righthere@home.now), April 17, 2000.

The only thing Cherri needs is brain.

-- (Scarecrow@ if I only had a .brain), April 17, 2000.

Hey, Cherri! Didn't you used to be best friends with Diane Squire?

(Yes, you were. You low-life, condesending, whore. Why do you bother to post here?)

-- (Go @way. go far away.), April 17, 2000.

Rules of debate; never resort to name-calling as it is more of a reflection of you and your intelligence (or lack thereof).

IMHO, real critics target substance and ideas, not people, and confident people do not throw stones anonymously. It takes courage to post a thought or idea. Any coward can snipe from behind a curtain in a dark room...

-- Uncle Bob (unclb0b@aol.com), April 17, 2000.

Other ideas from Cherri.

A Positive Vision of the Future

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002DCU

-- (people@events.ideas), April 17, 2000.

Cherri, Being wrong for the right reason is a lot different than being right for the wrong reason. Equating mysticism with so called doomerism just doesn't wash. Stepping over the line into a mystic belief involves a plunge that doesn't describe the average doomer. We came in all stripes, colors and degrees of prep. Most of us, I'd bet, have benefited from an increased awareness and improved selfsufficiency.

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), April 17, 2000.

Cherri,

The consistent nature of your posts to attempt to debunk anything which you are not capable of understanding is a clear demonstration that you are of extremely limited intellectual and conceptual ability. Just because you are incapable of expanding your mind beyond the obvious, does not mean that it is not possible.

You seem to be among the same school of limited thinkers as those who suggested that the Earth was flat, the Sun revolved around the Earth, the sound barrier could not be broken, and man could not fly to the moon. It is in fact the negative energies of such non-creative thinkers such as yourself that interfere with the potential for those of a higher level of consciousness to discover the true nature of the universe.

If your imagination is so limited that you are frightened to think about new ideas beyond those proven with physical evidence, then I truly feel sorry for you. But if you are trying to demonstrate your debunking talents in hope of landing a job with the thought police of the future, please, save your energy. One thing that I will never allow to be taken away from me is my imagination.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 17, 2000.

It is pitiful that small-minded people cannot see beyond their biases.

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 17, 2000.

Cherri,

Dummy.

You don't know what you are talking about, so you look like an idiot with this post.

I wonder how many Saturn squares you have . . . .

Gesh, 'assumption' is the lowest form of knowledge. You are making assumptions without having facts.

Dummy.

-- tootsie (closedminded@you.too), April 17, 2000.

Cherri it used to be that only us doomers didn't like you

Now it seems everyone can't stand you.

-- Swampthing (in@the.swamp), April 17, 2000.

Well, well, Cherri it would appear that you have disturbed some of the lunatic fringe with your post. These are the Y2K losers that are responding and it looks like the meme is alive and well. Dont you just love Hawks' retort, which includes the following statement:

If your imagination is so limited that you are frightened to think about new ideas beyond those proven with physical evidence, then I truly feel sorry for you.

This from our own village idiot who never saw a conspiracy that he didnt embrace. I tell you people, we must learn to ignore this physical evidence stuff before the reality of it all sets in. As Hawk has said time after time, if you cant see it, touch it, or explain it than it must be true. Kind of like your sex life aye Hawkey?

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 17, 2000.

Cherri-- You seem as sure as the fundamentalists that astrology is not the "one true way." There are people who believe in checking out many roads to enlightenment. Along the way they are bound to pick some that lead nowhere. But how can they be sure beforehand?

Gotta go--see that little bridge over there? Wonder where it goes........

-- Pam (jpjgood@penn.com), April 17, 2000.

Ra-

"You seem to be among the same school of limited thinkers as those who suggested that the Earth was flat, the Sun revolved around the Earth, the sound barrier could not be broken, and man could not fly to the moon." -Hawk

Did you miss that part?

-- Debra (there'safull@moon.com), April 17, 2000.

Hawk dribbled..

If your imagination is so limited that you are frightened to think about new ideas beyond those proven with physical evidence, then I truly feel sorry for you.

This from our "aircraft crash investagator" who doesn't need to actually see any evidence or have any experience in the field on order to have a "theory".

Monty Python had something to say about folks like him...

-- Y2K Pro (y2kpro1@hotmail.com), April 17, 2000.

"Great minds discuss ideas;

Average minds discuss events;

Small minds discuss people."

-- (RaMikey/Pro@not.too.bright), April 17, 2000.

Who is Monty Python?

-- not (a.person@you.idiot), April 17, 2000.

Idiot

-- Tag janitor (hateliteral@tinfoils.com), April 17, 2000.

Cherri -- I don't think people that seek astrology or a profit-seekers for answers are looking for a friend. Most are just indecisive and need someone else to tell them what to do, or confirm what they feel

Reality has little to do with it.

-- (doomerstomper@usa.net), April 17, 2000.

You got Mysticism mixed-up with stupidity there Cherri. Someplace around here, there are threads dealing with TIME, I suggest a reread. The Mystic understands that all exists, everyplace, simiultaneously (call it a hope-wish-or creed if you like).

Basic problem is some think they are better than others. That they have some unique insight only available to them. Astrology is a great example. You can bad-mouth it all you want, I would choose to say it warrants "at least" acknowledgement there must be some truth there or others(similar to you) would not see something of value. To do otherwise is to dishonor self, to ignore that part of us which is curious. Maybe you did follow, and to you Astrology is BS, so be it. History alone "should" indicate there is indeed something to "it". Astrology been around a few years ya know. Personally I find the personality traits to be extremely accurate. Do I know why? hell no. but I do know I am one wacky Virgo.

Y2k Doomersim is the result of too much RATIONALISM, too much reliance upon concrete factoids. Sorry but as much as you would like to believe it, Science will NEVER provide all the answers a living breathing human being needs to have a fulfilling life, never has and never will. We need BALANCE. A Doomer is not Mystical, they are HYSTERICAL. NOBODY could be sure using facts. Did YOU personally visit every Y2k remediation project? Survey every embedded system for compliance or more importantly, was dating in question? Course not, why not? Cause at somepoint, you had a "mystical" moment and concluded the universe IS indeed consistent. Your Y2k "opinion" was mostly based on FAITH, is this not a leap?

Doomerism is fear caused by leading one's life ignoring the "mystical" side to life. At the center of this spiritual blindness is the belief that this world is a bad place and one is born into such, something I have found is nothing but vaporware.

Peace

-- Attack-Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), April 17, 2000.

Cherri -- I guess you just don't want to mess with people's religion, even if it is astrology.

One thing I think added to everyone's interest in Y2K is that it had a definite "end point" -- on January 1, 2000 (or sometime thereafter, depending on your perspective) we got to KNOW who was right and who was wrong. Unfortunately, Astrology doesn't offer that type of final certainty.

Personally, I think that anyone that believe the alignment of various chunks of rock and hydrogen swinging through space influences human events has an analytical screw loose. But, I've learned not to argue about such things. As the song goes, "you believe what you wanna believe"

-- E.H. Porter (Just Wondering@About.it), April 17, 2000.

Cherri:

Astrology does not preclude free will. An EMBRYONIC look at the discipline would tell you that planetary alignments and transits do not ACT on individuals; they merely speak to possibilities-certain physical realities may be more likely to happen during certains times.

The planets describe archetypes of the human collective consciousness- from the time when mythology was born, the human mind has created an outward expression of innate trials and tribulations. The mythologies, which I would posit all modern religions descend from, were developed as a result of humans trying to explain the forces within.

Cherri, as with anything, the proof is in the pudding; you can remain a complete objectivist and only believe in the "facts" of science, or you can use what works in your life. If a certain religion makes someone love their neighbor and themself, then that religion is TRUE for them. If I use astrology to decide what time to get married, or when to ask for a raise, or how to best approach a person based on t heir chart, and it works, WHY do you feel a need to debunk?

Yes, there are charlatans in any industry-their are pseudo- astrologers and palm readers and tarot readers who are just crooks- but their are crooks everywhere-How much do you think a $1.99 bag of potato chips cost to make? Maybe $.30? You can worship the shrine of science if that works for you-that goes for any skeptic-Just remember that absolute science fact of even ten years ago may be debunked today-Science is NOT absolutism-It cannot and will not ever describe all phenomena that occur in the universe.

And to the others who attacked Hawk-is this a new past time? Did he attack any of you today? Or are you a group of people who do not forgive? He called me Dicklips last week, but we have moved on and had an excellant dialouge on another thread. Forgiveness is a great healer, Ra.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 17, 2000.

The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves, that we are underlings.

-- fauna (...x@...y.com), April 17, 2000.

Cherri, I am almost embarassed for some of the folks who are so insecure in their beliefs that they attack you, instead of giving logical arguments for their beliefs.

It's pretty obvious that astrology is no more than a parlor game to most people. I think that some people, unfortunately, didn't realize this, and got caught up in it as if it were serious.

For pete's sake; don't they know that the sun is not even in the astrological sign on which all these astrological predictions and explanations are saying it is?

Here is a direct quote from my "New Standard Encyclopedia":

The constellations no longer occupy the same relative positions to the sun as they did 2,000 years ago (when they were assigned their names by Greek astronomer Hipparchus). The sun now occupies the next constellation west of the sign.

If you don't believe this, go out during any full moon. The full moon will appear in front of the sign which the sun will occupy exactly six months from now, and already occupied exactly six months in the past.

The astrologers don't even bother to correct this inconsistency.

My astrological sign, for instance, is Cancer. But when I was born, the sun was not in Cancer; it was in Gemini.

A larger problem, involving a lot more gullible people than astrology, Cherri, is that so many people blindly believe whatever their religious gurus tell them.

As far as Y2k is concerned, I agree that there are a lot of people who believe anything they are told by their doomer gurus, but don't you think that some of us actually analyzed as much data as they could muster, and prepared based on the information at hand? I certainly think I did. I weighed the evidence at hand, gave some more credibility than others, and decided that it would be prudent to stockpile a lot of food, but only food which I would be able to eat later. I actually SAVED a lot of money on much of this food, as I bought it in case lots, or in bulk quantities. I bought virtually nothing that was not already something that I eat. I also made sure to stockpile an adequate supply of firewood, which I always do anyway, but I'm sure there were those who stockpiled a lot more than they normally would have. So what? They bought wood at a lower cost than they would probably have had to pay in the future, or cut more wood than normal, and the result is that they now have extra firewood, which will be very well seasoned by the time they get around to burning it.

I believe that people who fled the cities because of y2k, or took other extreme measures, may be feeling pretty foolish by now, but if they acted out of the best interpretation of the facts that they were able to make, then they still were smart to have done so. For myself, I am certainly not qualified to directly interpret what will happen with computer chips, or anything else that's IT. So I went with the most credible seeming "experts". So they were wrong. Oh, well.

If I had it to do over, I'd probably do the same thing, other than I would be a bit more skeptical of some of my sources of information, including NEMA, John Koskinen, etc. I don't penalize our local county Emergency Preparedness Agency for warning us of the y2k risks; they, like I, recommended preparations based on the facts at hand.

Maybe we lucked out. Maybe the "experts" were bullshitting us. I don't know. Still, we did what we did for a reason.

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.neet), April 17, 2000.

Your Y2k "opinion" was mostly based on FAITH, is this not a leap?

Actually my Y2K opinion was based on physical facts and knowledge.

As for astrology, When I read the piece, it reminded me of how some people looked at Y2K before the rollover so I transposed where I could.

As for me, I am a Gemini, a triple Gemini, but we Gemini's are too intelligent to believe in astrology.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), April 17, 2000.

JumpOff:

I thank you for your characterization of astrologers as gullible-I am hardly gullible; I am a natural skeptic, a science nerd as a child, so I am not grasping at straws when dealing in this area. Do you think we are all so stupid that we do not know about precession? Did you know that there are ways of casting charts to account for precession? Did you know that it does not matter, in the physical world, what is happening with respect to the backkground of the stars?

Astrology is about cycles, it describes our inner nature; not our outer nature. We are the creators of our reality, and paying close attention to our internal cycles allows us to acheive a better reality.

Why must you attack a whole class of people and call them gullible? I must tell you that since I have used astrology as ONE tool among many that I use in my spiritual evolution, my life has taken off-my career has taken off, my marriage has gotten better, and my relations with others, including a family I could not stand, have gotten better.

If it works, why are you arguing with it? Leave us be to practice our "faith" and you can pursue the science "god"-until that scientific truth you were so sure of turns out to be wrong. Oops- happens all the time.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 17, 2000.

In the late 1930s and early 1940s, I believed in astrology.

Then the epiphany.

Hitler, a true believer, was advised by his astrologers - Europe's finest - that he would be drinking Riesling in the Kremlin on Christmas 1942.

It didn't happpen.

That is when I turned to Phrenology.

Phrenology Rules!

-- (retard@but.happy), April 17, 2000.

"Cherri -- I guess you just don't want to mess with people's religion, even if it is astrology.... Personally, I think that anyone that believe the alignment of various chunks of rock and hydrogen swinging through space influences human events has an analytical screw loose."

What are you trying to say??? That because I KNOW that black cats walking under ladders DO have an effect on MY LUCK I have a SCREW LOOSE??? I KNOW FOR SURE it affects my luck!!!! EVERY TIME that happens I CAN'T buy lotery tickets or ask a woman out because I KNOW I HAVE LOST MY LUCK and I WON'T WIN!! SO I DON'T BOTHER!!!

-- Looking (f@r.my.screws), April 17, 2000.

If the moon affects the tides in the ocean would it not also affect us? We are, after all, mostly water.

We're entering the full moon right now. Watch everyone around you. Alittle craziness going on? Do you feel alittle "out of sorts"? Keep it in mind for the next few days.

Cherri-

Are you "playing" when you say you don't "believe in" astrology? (My guess is yes!). I wondered that when I first read your post.

-- Debra (it'safull@moon.com), April 17, 2000.

Future, I still think you're gullible. Perhaps you are fooling yourself into believing that the position of uranus in relation to your sun is causing all your new found success. I could say that my life has turned around since I started driving a Mazda pickup. It would make good press for the car company, but it still would be "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc"

Believe it or not, I don't plant according to the moon, and I do quite well with my garden, thank you.

As far as my "god of science", well, yes, you could call it that. But in my opinion, science searches for truth, rather than claiming that it knows what the truth is, and refusing to consider anything contradictive of that truth, as is true of so many religions.

Yes, my "scientific god" does make mistakes; have no doubt! But when I, as a scientific type, realize that I took a wrong turn at St. Louis, and am heading toward Muskogee instead of toward M.I.T., I am willing to admit my mistake and do a one eighty, rather than repeating my mantra over and over that "Route 66 goes to Boston, Route 66 goes to Boston,Route 66 goes to Boston, Route 66 goes to Boston!

When YOU reach "Boston", someday, and the head of the Boston Philharmonic turns out to be Merle Haggard, will you keep telling yourself that he is really Seiji Osawa? This could be REAL Future Shock!

I am not, however, trying to get you to stop practicing your astrological art of gracious living. Nor to stop playing with your Ouija Board, for that matter. Go for it!

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.neet), April 17, 2000.

Astrology was the first science that used observation to draw a conclusion. It dates back thousands of years through a variety of cultures and has only fallen into "disfavor" within the last hundred or so years. Why? Because nobody can "prove" how or why astrology works, therefore it's thrown onto the junk heap by those who haven't bothered to investigate it, even if only to debunk it.

For the detractors: I invite you to explore the subject further. Watch how certain planetary interactions do indeed correspond to human affairs. I don't know why, only that it does. Take some time to observe the ebb and flow, the ups and downs, the cycles of life as they unfold. You might be amazed by the interconnectedness of it all. There are definite patterns there that cannot be dismissed.

I'm not saying to live your life based on the stars, but to be observant of the patterns that shape your existence. You are free to swim against the tides or to go with the flow, the choice is always yours. For me, I'll take the path of least resistance. And astrology provides an insight to that path.

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 17, 2000.

"Astrology was the first science that used observation to draw a conclusion." Astrology is to science as professional wrestling is to sport....

-- Y2K Pro (y2kpro1@hotmail.com), April 17, 2000.

Y2K Pro is such a fucking genius that he repeatedly has problems understanding how to use HTML tags that 5 year old children have mastered.

Clean up after yourself, asshole! You're like a kid shitting his diapers all over the place.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 17, 2000.

Frank:

Earlier in this thread I said:

"Astrology does not preclude free will. An EMBRYONIC look at the discipline would tell you that planetary alignments and transits do not ACT on individuals; they merely speak to possibilities-certain physical realities may be more likely to happen during certains times.

The planets describe archetypes of the human collective consciousness- from the time when mythology was born, the human mind has created an outward expression of innate trials and tribulations. The mythologies, which I would posit all modern religions descend from, were developed as a result of humans trying to explain the forces within."

Then you said: "If your future is set in the stars and pre-determined, then you have no free will. Without free will why bother? In any event, if the events of the future are fixed, why bother telling people about them, as they'll happen anyway?"

I fail to comprehend how you can characterize astrology as you did above after reading(did you?) my earlier comments. I HAVE experience at this, and I know what I am talking about. Seems to me you have a prepared Mantra against the art(yes, art-as I believe science is also an art).

To whomever talked about Hitler's astorlogers-Would you have said anything different to Hitler? Doncha thing there may have been a little coercion at play here?

JumpOff:

Because I use astrology does not mean that I do not use science-the problem with most folk is that they really DO see things in black in white-That is why my handle has the color "gray" in it-I try to see things from all angles, and science IS one of the tools in my spiritual kit. I appreciate your concern regarding my gullibility; But I think you do not understand how I use astrology. I AM aware of the logical fallacy that could possibly be made in falsely attributing cause. Make no mistake, I have the charts of both the owner of my company and the person to whom I report, and I will tell you that this is a HUGE advantage when dealing with them. In fact. the owner of my company allowed me to cunsult on a legal case-the advise I gave her and the outcome I predicted were right on. She settled the case for a large sum of money-she was unwilling to settle before I talked to her; she wanted to take it to the jury, but certain transits were taking place-I advised her of possible outcomes and Decided that although she may have received more by going to trial, she was satisfied with having it over.

Ya know what-I think I am going to leave this thread now and thank all you folk for your input and concern. Like Luna said, I do not know why it works but it does.

Time to move on.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 17, 2000.

FutureShock,

If some catastrophe occurred and the Human race was wiped from the face of the Earth, would the planets change their position? Or do you believe they are not really "tethered" to Human consciousness in any way?

For me it's hard to believe that some big ball of rock being spun around the sun would be a useful thing to listen to on such matters as when to get married, buy stock, etc.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 18, 2000.

I'm a Capricorn with two grand crosses so I don't dismiss the possibility of anything.

Hey, is this still a polly board? Hard to tell....

-- lisa (lisa@work.now), April 18, 2000.

Hey Hawk!

How's the ol' aircraft crash investigation business goin'? Snicker...

-- Y2K Pro (y2kpro1@hotmail.com), April 18, 2000.

You must be suffering from another one of your delusions there, "Pro" diaper-shitter. "snicker"

I'm not in the "aircraft investigation business", and never claimed to be.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 18, 2000.

He claims Im a high flying hawk,

Im an expert on planes does he squawk,

Those fucked up chips you cant see,

Will make planes fall into the sea,

Babbling certified idiot talk!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 18, 2000.

For poor little Mikey, thinkin' comes pretty hard,

everyone 'cept him, knows he is a retard.

He changed his name to Ra, to try to be smart,

but the only thing he knows, is how to eat, shit, and fart.

His tiny little mind is so mutha-frickin dim,

even certified idiots are much brighter than him.

He wanted to be a pilot, but they said "you're too ignorant",

so now he sweeps up metal shavings at the Boeing plant.

Everything he reads, he doesn't understand,

so he gets on the forum, with his weenie in his hand.

He gets really mad that everyone is so bright,

so he calls them silly names, and tries to pick a fight.

He feels really left out, always being so ignored,

so he jerks himself off, on his sticky keyboard.

Then he realizes, he's a worthless piece of shit,

but he's still too dumb to know, that he's an idiot.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 19, 2000.

Teee heee hee heee

-- very funny (RaMikey@retard.troll), April 19, 2000.

BWAAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAHAAAAHAAAHAAA HAAAAAA HAAAAA HAA HAA HAAA!!!!!

-- (laughing@the.Ratard), April 19, 2000.

...more proof that the young man known as hawk is both witless and a dullard. A cretinous, endomorphic, scatological nitwit who can't rhyme.

-- Savage (blah@blah.com), April 19, 2000.

BWAAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAHAAAAHAAAHAAA HAAAAAA HAAAAA HAA HAA HAAA!!!!!!

-- youbetcha (snickering@hawk.wind), April 19, 2000.

ROTFL!!!

Savage, it rhymes perfectly, are you stupid or what? Way to go Hawk, good one, Ra sure is a sick loser troll. :)

-- (the.trolls.are@losers.com), April 19, 2000.

Debra,

Shroom = drug type of LSD

just FYI.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), April 19, 2000.