From "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion---1728

"I concieve then, that the INFINITE has created many beings or gods, vstly superior to Man, who can better concieve his Perfections than we, and return him a more rational and glorious praise.

It may be that these created Gods are immortal, ot it may be that after many Ages, they are changed , and others Supply their Places.

Howbeit, I concieve that each of these is exceeding wise and good, and very powerful, and that Each has made for himself one glorious Sun, attended with a beautiful and admirable System of Planets.

It is that particular Wise and good God, who is the author and owner of our System, that I propose for the object of my praise and adoration.

(Its tax time and i have to quit procrastinating and get busy freaking so I'll let one of you web wise folk find a link or paste in a full copy of this essay. Its a most amazing take on the universe)

----------while your at it, find a 1748 essay, "Advice to a Young Tradesman"---------

In 1728 Ben composed his epitaph.

"The body of B. Franklin.

Printer; like the cover of an old book its contents torn out and stript of its lettering and gilding lies here, food for worms . But the work shall not be wholly lost; for it will, as he believed, appear once more, in a new and more perfect edition, corrected and amended by the author.

He was born Jan 6, 1706. Died 17--"

_____________________

So ken, what you think? "the work shall not be wholly lost"

What do you know of Masons? Ben was a big mucky muck its said.

dave

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2000

Answers

David,

Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
http://www.nagasaki-gaigo.ac.jp/ishikawa/amlit/f/ franklin1718.htm

Not quite finding... Advice to a Young Tradesman. Will keep looking.

BTW, as to believers in reincarnation, you may want to add Albert Einstien to the list, George washington and as I recall Abraham Lincoln.

Diane

(OT... Remember buying a pamphlet in Colonial Williamsburg on this one... Advice to a Friend on Choosing a Mistress (1745) http://www.bibliomania.com/NonFiction/Franklin/Autobiography/ Letters2.html ... read especially about old women. *Smile*)

-- Anonymous, April 16, 2000

Hi Folks,

snip Howbeit, I concieve that each of these is exceeding wise and good, and very powerful, and that Each has made for himself one glorious Sun, attended with a beautiful and admirable System of Planets.

end snip

So what are you saying, Dave, that Ben was the first Mormon?

Now, since we're in the well of the 18th century American philosophers, look up Thomas Jefferson's Unitarian thoughts on theology.....

Masons - Bah, nothing but a social club. There's not a bricklayer or stone cutter in the whole damn bunch.

"...the work shall not be wholly lost..." Well, some people say

snip

If ever there were an entity invented for human wish-fulfillment, the soul is that entity. As Thomas Hobbes pointed out, the concept of a non-substantial substance is a contradiction. It is not possible to imagine a non-physical entity having life and perception. Even believers in souls always imagine them as being like human shaped clouds or fogs. It is a delusion to believe that the concept of soul is conceivable. Yet, billions of people have believed in a non- spatial perceiver which can travel through space and perceive and interpret vibrations and waves in the air without any sense organs.

end snip source Soul

Also, the "soul" in NDEs:

snip According to Susan Blackmore, vision researcher Dr. Tomasz S. Troscianko of the University of Bristol speculated:

If you started with very little neural noise and it gradually increased, the effect would be of a light at the centre getting larger and larger and hence closer and closer....the tunnel would appear to move as the noise levels increased and the central light got larger and larger....If the whole cortex became so noisy that all the cells were firing fast, the whole area would appear light. [p. 85]

Blackmore attributes the feelings of extreme peacefulness of the NDE to the release of endorphins in response to the extreme stress of the situation. The buzzing or ringing sound is attributed to anoxia and consequent effects upon the connections between brain cells. [p. 64]

Dr. Karl Jansen has reproduced NDEs with ketamine, a short-acting, hallucinogenic, 'dissociative' anaesthetic.

The anaesthesia is the result of the patient being so 'dissociated' and 'removed from their body' that it is possible to carry out surgical procedures. This is wholly different from the 'unconsciousness' produced by conventional anesthetics, although ketamine is also an excellent analgesic (pain killer) by a different route (i.e. not due to dissociation). Ketamine is related to phencyclidine (PCP). Both drugs are arylcyclohexylamines - they are not opioids and are not related to LSD. In contrast to PCP, ketamine is relatively safe, is much shorter acting, is an uncontrolled drug in most countries, and remains in use as an anaesthetic for children in industrialised countries and all ages in the third world as it is cheap and easy to use. Anaesthetists prevent patients from having NDE's ('emergence phenomena') by the co-administration of sedatives which produce 'true' unconsciousness rather than dissociation.

According to Dr. Jansen, ketamine can reproduce all the main features of the NDE, including travel through a dark tunnel into the light, the feeling that one is dead, communing with God, hallucinations, out- of-body experiences, strange noises, etc. This does not prove that there is no life after death, but it does prove that an NDE is not proof of an afterlife. In any case, the so-called "typical" NDE is not typical of anything, except the tendency of parapsychologists to selectively isolate features of a wide array of experiences and fit them to a paranormal or supernatural hypothesis.

end snip source NDE

...Let the rebuttal begin....

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2000

No Rebuttal Ken,

I see we got to work on definitions though, too many things are being mixed together, Explain why very different psychoactive agents with differing mechanisms generate common phenomenal experience, for example. Check out a guy named Hollingsworth, should be on yesterday's CBN web page---got knocked unconscious and talked to god and became a changed person.

What I was getting at is multifold.

Was Bucky Fuller (reread, No More Secondhand God) Ben Franklen reincarnated?

Are we mistaking non-simultinaity as instantanious? Or common. For example, every culture seems to have a flood myth. Drop rocks the size of hills in the ocean and you get floods, big rains you get floods, dam bursts (gibralter) you get floods---aint got to be the same flood at the same time all over, but it could be made to look that way.

Ben is postulating a startreck universe:

"I believe there is one supreme, most perfect Being, Author and Father of the Gods themselves. For I believe that Man is not the most perfect Being but one, rather than as there are many Degrees of Beings his Infieriors, so ther are many Degrees of Beings superior to him.

"Also when I stretch my Imagination thro'a nd beyond our System of Planets, beyond the visible fix'd Stars themselves, into that Space that is every Way infine, and conceive it fill'd with Suns like ours, each with a Chorus of World forever moving round him, then this little Ball on which we move, seem, even in my narrow Imagination, to be almost Nothing, and myself less nat nothing, and of no sort of Consequence.

When I think thus, I imagine it breat Vanity in me to suppose, that the SUPREMELY PERFECT does in the least regard such an inconsiderable Nothing as Man. More especially, since it is impossible for me to have any positive clear idea of that which is infinite and incomprehensible, I cannot conceive otherwise than that he the INFINITE FATHER expects or requires no Worship or Praise from us, but that he is even infinitely above it.

"I concieve then, that the INFINITE has created many beings or gods, vstly superior to Man,who can better concieve his Perfections than we, and return him a more rational and glorious praise.

It may be that these created Gods are immortal, ot it may be that after many Ages, they are changed , and others Supply their Places.

Howbeit, I concieve that each of these is exceeding wise and good, and very powerful, and that Each has made for himself on glorious Sun, attended with a beautiful and admirable System of Planets.

It is that particular Wise and good God, who is the author and owner of our System, that I propose for the object of my praise and adoration. "

---------- The local god, god in a star, god as star? Starmaker.

Quite a different thing than what powers all creation and which Ben is identifying as supreme perfection.

If we shift to looking for local gods what do we find?

Got to do some work now. You feeling fey yet tom? (still thing we misuse the word) manic? lunatic? its the gravitational pulser and light cycle transducer.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2000

My understanding is that ketamine was also what they issued field personnel in the Vietnam war - easy to inject ampoules that would provide pain relief but without the same concern over addictive effects that the opiates might commence.

Also - Lilly of dolphin research and isolation tank fame, used ketamine as his preferred state altering vehicle. Coupling the ketamine and isolation tanks definitely got him out of earth orbit on his trips.

Perhaps the commonality of experiences is a function of the commonality of the structure that is undergoing the experience. There is wide variation - but analogous biological operation of people's physiology allows us to use anaesthetics across different people with the expectation that it will work. So - this argues that if you follow the same state shifting procedure, whether meditative, ecstatic initiation, or LSD - if you manage setting and dose you can give people the "same" experience. Hell doesn't that match the presuppositions of what education is supposed to be about?

Anyway - if you hit a large bell with a stone striker, a hardwood striker, and with a metal striker - you will get the same tone - because the tone is a function of the resonance of the bell. (Overtones may be a function of the striker - so we get some variation, but at a level way down from the fundamental (fundamental frequence and point).)

So - if people have common enough structures for classes of drugs to work - and the drugs work on their structures, then other experiences which also operate on their structures could yield the same experiences.

The experience is a function of what is happening to the structure - so whether you are having endorphins attach to the receptors, or opiates to the same sites - you are going to have the same trip. It's a function of which receptors are being messed with.

The experience being transformatory - to me that is the trail to follow. Once you get that repetetive, then people can have these discussions from experience (like Ken and Diane) as opposed to second hand.

I guess the question that this opens up is that - if I can have an experience of angels by tripping on acid in church, what does this say about angels?

Does acid open me up to what is always there?

Are angels an internal experience waiting to be encountered as opposed to winged faery people or messengers of that old guy that the Hebrews had a covenant with?

Or what?

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2000

Tom,

For angels and the famous...

George Washington's Visions / Prophecies

http:// www.crystalinks.com/gw.html

George Washington's vision is recorded at the Library of Congress

Valley Forge, the winter of 1777, American forces were fighting against the British, the most powerful nation in the world. Many believe that only 3% of the American people took part in the struggle for independence, while "Tories" gave aid and comfort to the British cause.

"This afternoon, as I was sitting at this table engaged in preparing a dispatch, something seemed to disturb me. Looking up, I beheld standing opposite me a singularly beautiful female. So astonished was I, for I had given strict orders not to be disturbed, that it was some moments before I found language to inquire the cause of her presence. A second, a third and even a fourth time did I repeat my question, but received no answer from my mysterious visitor except a slight raising of her eyes.

"By this time I felt strange sensations spreading through me. I would have risen but the riveted gaze of the being before me rendered volition impossible. I assayed once more to address her, but my tongue had become useless, as though it had become paralyzed.

"A new influence, mysterious, potent, irresistible, took possession of me. All I could do was to gaze steadily, vacantly at my unknown visitor, Gradually the surrounding atmosphere seemed as if it had become filled with sensations, and luminous. Everything about me seemed to rarify, the mysterious visitor herself becoming more airy and yet more distinct to my sight than before. I now began to feel as one dying, or rather to experience the sensations which I have sometimes imagined accompany dissolution. I did not think, I did not reason, I did not move; all were alike impossible. I was only conscious of gazing fixedly, vacantly at my companion.

"Presently I heard a voice saying, `Son of the Republic, look and learn,' while at the same time my visitor extended her arm eastwardly. I now beheld a heavy white vapor at some distance rising fold upon fold. This gradually dissipated, and I looked upon a strange scene. Before me lay spread out in one vast plain all the countries of the world; Europe, Asia, Africa and America. I saw rolling and tossing between Europe and America the billows of the Atlantic, and between Asia and America lay the Pacific.

" `Son of the Republic' said the same mysterious voice as before, `look and learn,' At that moment I beheld a dark, shadowy being, like an angel, standing, or rather floating in mid-air, between Europe and America. Dipping water out of the ocean in the hollow of each hand, he sprinkled some upon America with his right hand, while with his left hand he cast some on Europe. Immediately a cloud raised from these countries, and joined in mid-ocean. For a while it remained stationary, and then moved slowly westward, until it enveloped America in its murky folds. Sharp flashes of lightning gleamed through it at intervals, and I heard the smothered groans and cries of the American people.

"A second time the angel dipped water from the ocean, and sprinkled it out as before. The dark cloud was then drawn back to the ocean, in whose heaving billows it sank from view. A third time I heard the mysterious voice saying, `Son of the Republic, look and learn,' I cast my eyes upon America and beheld villages and towns and cities springing up one after another until the whole land from the Atlantic to the Pacific was dotted with them.

"Again, I heard the mysterious voice say, `Son of the Republic, the end of the century cometh, look and learn.' At this the dark shadowy angel turned his face southward, and from Africa I saw an ill-omened spectre approach our land. It flitted slowly over every town and city of the latter. The inhabitants presently set themselves in battle array against each other. As I continued looking I a saw bright angel, on whose brow rested a crown of light, on which was traced the word `Union,' bearing the American flag which he placed between the divided nation, and said, `Remember ye are brethren.' Instantly, the inhabitants, casting from them their weapons became friends once more, and united around the National Standard.

"And again I heard the mysterious voice saying, `Son of the Republic, look and learn.' At this the dark, shadowy angel placed a trumpet to his mouth, and blew three distinct blasts; and taking water from the ocean, he sprinkled it upon Europe, Asia and Africa. Then my eyes beheld a fearful scene: from each of these countries arose thick, black clouds that were soon joined into one. Throughout this mass there gleamed a dark red light by which I saw hordes of armed men, who, moving with the cloud, marched by land and sailed by sea to America. Our country was enveloped in this volume of cloud, and I saw these vast armies devastate the whole country and burn the villages, towns and cities that I beheld springing up. As my ears listened to the thundering of the cannon, clashing of swords, and the shouts and cries of millions in mortal combat, I heard again the mysterious voice saying, `Son of the Republic, look and learn.' When the voice had ceased, the dark shadowy angel placed his trumpet once more to his mouth, and blew a long and fearful blast.

"Instantly a light as of a thousand suns shone down from above me, and pierced and broke into fragments the dark cloud which enveloped America. At the same moment the angel upon whose head still shone the word Union, and who bore our national flag in one hand and a sword in the other, descended from the heavens attended by legions of white spirits. These immediately joined the inhabitants of America, who I perceived were well nigh overcome, but who immediately taking courage again, closed up their broken ranks and renewed the battle.

"Again, amid the fearful noise of the conflict, I heard the mysterious voice saying, `Son of the Republic, look and learn.' As the voice ceased, the shadowy angel for the last time dipped water from the ocean and sprinkled it upon America. Instantly the dark cloud rolled back, together with the armies it had brought, leaving the inhabitants of the land victorious!

"Then once more I beheld the villages, towns and cities springing up where I had seen them before, while the bright angel, planting the azure standard he had brought in the midst of them, cried with o loud voice" `While the stars remain, and the heavens send down dew upon the earth, so long shall the Union last.' And taking from his brow the crown on which blazoned the word `UNION,' he placed it upon the Standard while the people, kneeling down, said, `Amen.'

"The scene instantly began to fade and dissolve, and I at last saw nothing but the rising, curling vapor I at first beheld. This also disappearing, I found myself once more gazing upon the mysterious visitor, who, in the same voice I had heard before, said, `Son of the Republic, what you have seen is thus interpreted: three great perils will come upon the Republic. The most fearful is the third, but in this greatest conflict the whole world united shall not prevail against her. Let every child of the Republic learn to live for his God, his land and the Union. With these words the vision vanished, and I started from my seat and felt that I had seen a vision wherein had been shown to me the birth, progress and destiny of the United States."

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2000

tom,

Where are you finding that Lilly used Ketamine? Thought it was acid.

What does it say about the church? Have you read Varieties of Psychodelic Experience ? Set and Setting shaped outcomes.

Are the structures involved indeed common? I sense you doing with structure what we do with language, lummping. I say drugs and obscure mechanism by not being specific. In the same way, a seratonin dump and binding an opiate receptor seem to me different but its been so long and I am sure the understanding of the biochemical mode of action has improved, least I hope it has.

funny, I think there is no diversity but want lots of picky little catagories to screen reality through.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2000

Hey Dave,

I knew it was in one of the books Lilly authored (but my collection is in a box....) so I did a quick search and it turns out the reference is in his book "The Scientist". Here's the results from one site (alt.culture) at http://www.altculture.com/aentries/k/ketamine.html

Ketamine

Dissociative substance championed by scientist John Lilly since his 1981 autobiography, The Scientist. Known on the street as K, Ket, Ketamine, Kit-Kat, Special K, and Vitamin K, ketamine hydrochloride is legitimately used to anesthetize animals and children. Available over the counter in Mexico as Kelar (it is a schedule III drug in the United States), ketamine is most effectively taken intramuscularly but is also viable orally and nasally. While accounts of its effects range from rapture to paranoia to boredom, it commonly elicits an out-of-body experience that puts the user in touch with beings or forces of an apparently cosmic ilk (Lilly claimed to have enjoyed conversations with the "masters of the universe"). Ketamine's tendency to render the user comatose (or put him or her in a "K-hole") makes it less than ideal for party or rave situations, where it is frequently sold.

-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000

Dave said: "Are the structures involved indeed common? I sense you doing with structure what we do with language, lummping. I say drugs and obscure mechanism by not being specific. In the same way, a seratonin dump and binding an opiate receptor seem to me different but its been so long and I am sure the understanding of the biochemical mode of action has improved, least I hope it has."

I take it your chiding me for over-generalizing... I had thought that the opiates worked by binding to sites that are normally "used" by endorphins, but the extent of my biochemistry peters out at that point. Is seratonin an endorphin? And more generally, for any drug to work, I thought the lesson was that it had to participate in pre-existing working processes in the body. Ground granite doesn't participate, magic mushroom constituents do.

Maybe I can clarify my point, which is that experience is constituted by changes to our makeup. To register anything as having occured, something has to shift inside my structure. If the shift is normally mediated by placing me in a context where the external experience results in those shifts - then I have an "experience". If you introduce drugs into my system that modulate the structure the same way, then I say that I'm having the same experience.

So, whether I go to an old style Masonic initiation (unlike as Ken says the present day social club faint-remnant) and all the set and setting foments my own state shifting, or whether someone provides me with the acid koolaid test while reading excerpts of Tolkein - the net result is still going to be transforms of my structure. Finesse and control may be easier using old style props, whereas the "power" of the chemical method means you are going on a trip.

Does this is lumping and generalization miss some point I'm not registering?

If it is all structural i.e. there is no ghost in the machine, then what remains is the range of experiences and learnings the structure can have over the lifetime available. Sort of the existential absurdity question - if God is dead, and there is no afterlife, and there is no absolute meaning maker - then why go on? For me curiosity is a powerful answer to that question.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2000

No argument,Tom, and my biochem is too rusty to trust too. What I want is a technology, what I call the "mindarts". I want the mechanisms explicite so that there is "control" over the outcome. You do not want to put water in the gas tank nor petrol in the oil lamp. the devil is in the details.

Pure ethanol (everclear in the store) will render you unconscious the same way wine will but the hang-over is mild compared to wine. It has to do with my being picky about words---natural and normal are not the same, natural and organic and safe are not the same but look at the way they are being used.

Makes me crazy to be asked if my produce are "organic"! "

No, not a carbon hydrogen bond in the batch, synthesized them this morning right before market."

Idiots! Its natural, it must be safe, so they eat jimson weed or poke. Cobra venom is natural too!

rant,rant, rant (aint i cute when all lathered up?)

Have you checked out Diane's forum yet?

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2000