Ken wants to know:

"So really, how dead does a brain have to be before we can, with reasonable certainty, give a separate level of credence to the NDE experience?"

The question needs work....stopped is not dead, if I could flash freeze and then restart a brain, would it have been dead---is my computer dead because its turned off?

More importantly, we again fix the "I" in that little control room behind the eyes in the brain---knowing damn well that mentation is a whole body (and then some)process and that chemistry as well as electricity is a major driver.

Recall stories of French Revolution, prearranged code of eye blinks since no vocal cords, grab the fresh head out of the basket---"do you hear me Jean-paul?" Blink, blink---the signal for yes. (BTW. when you lop the head off a live human the blood sprays about 12 feet in the air. most impressive pump, the heart.)

As I think about how much of my body can be disposed of with out the "me" being destroyed I see that as in all areas we are talking of processes and verbs not nouns. The I I am now is not what I was though the core sense of me does not change. Being blind without glasses is a current reality but once I was better than 20:20 vision so its clear that aging of the body forces a redefinition of what I am and what I can do. I break easier, tear more readily, ache more, sleep less, etc.

In the same way, dismembering my body would force me to redefine myself. Pieces I can regenerate are somehow different from permanent loss---I may miss the toe nail while it regrows but its different from having the whole toe or foot cut off. (Do ghost limb sensations represent an internal, false, signal or could they represent a real signal from a portion of the limb not severed in, say, dimension 6.)

The NDE has complete credence. Ken wants to know "was/is it real! true!" Meaning "am I really immortal, spirit,etc." (moody blues "Of course, you are my bright little star, I've miles and miles of your forfather's fruit, and now to suit our great computer....)

Question I have;

Cross culturally, are the experiences common? are the images, languaging common?

Are NDE's associated with particular types of injury and not others of equal lethality?

As parts of the brain are carved away changes in the individual can be observed, how much change is allowed before saying that the one who was there is no more? Is this like running a program on a system with some broken parts?

Comatose patients who "wake up" after years? What were they and where do they fit in the classification scheme?

Finally, at the risk of offending Diane and confirming what ken knows---vividness is not the same as truthfulness. You cannot go home again, that's for sure. Diane has no choice, nor ken nor any of us. Ignorance is bliss but that's not much of a prize now is it. As for BLISS well its a hell of a reward and reinforcer but still not much of a prize.

Lets all be careful and keep our bodies intact and free from harm, its good to have all one's fingers.

peace dave

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2000

Answers

Mmmmm.... and it goes beyond the body in terms of having a particular history of human-ness (curious the lack of an English word for that) in that if children aren't taught to speak language at/by a certain age they will never be able to speak or reason in certain ways. And conversely, if you learn a language within a particular childhood window, then you will speak it like a native (without a foreign accent as an adult learner exhibits).

So, not only is "I" dependent upon having a body, but to be an "I" like we're used to, that body had better have had certain experiences at the right developmental point in your life history.

If there were some way we could systematically expose peope to an NDE, then there would be an equivalent shift and change in those people's experience and living going forward. I think this is perhaps some of what was going on in the Eleusian Mysteries - a way of systematically "killing" people so they could benefit from the experience.

Some accounts of the mystery religions have the person "dying" and coming back again as an essential experiental part of the initiation ceremony. Elaine Pagels in "The Gnostic Gospels" interpreted Jesus's raising Lazarus from the "dead" as such an initiation event for Lazarus, with Jesus being his guide/mentor. And subsequently, the metaphorical "dying to this world" was taken as literal, and thence we get an unapproachable miracle as opposed to a real experience. (Sorry Ken - I know I still owe you an answer on this "Gnostic Gospels" volume over on another thread, I haven't found my copy yet - this is all from memory.)

Maybe?

-- Anonymous, April 11, 2000

Tom,

I am reminded of Aldus Huxley writing to ???? (maybe Sidney Cohen) to the effect that that Leary fellow was going to spoil it for everyone.

I was always a believer in the efficasy of Sandos Labs output as a mode of mass behavior change. Silly me. Of course the spooks didn't foresee the ease with which the activation of hedonistic recreation would supplant the tendency toward a trancendental experience either.

Ah, melts in your mind, not in your mouth.

-- Anonymous, April 12, 2000

Ahhh - of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.

-- Anonymous, April 12, 2000

Ghosts are common in every culture I have been exposed to (all continents except the poles, Oceania, and Australia). So maybe dead to the point of no recovery. And some of those ghosts retain their former personality quirks.

My NDE just showed me that my body has an automatic pilot while "I" am gone. Not much value there since I suspected as much anyway.

The Ghost in the Machine may be a reality someday with our virtual immortality as a consciousness with no meat body. Sounds like hell to me.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000