Hi guys I need your advice - hopefully I can get this out without being too incoherant - i'm not really a writer - much prefering to vent verbally but here goes...!!

My problem is that I'm finding it hard to deal with a finance problem i'm having with my partner without getting real emotional. We both earn pretty good salaries but I discovered at the weekend that he has $10,000 more debt on his credit card than I thought he had and although we've talked about it rationally and sorted out a budget for paying it off togther slowly I keep feeling so, so mad with him.

After feeling mad I then consequently guilty with myself for feeling mad... you see in the past he's always been so great at supporting me when i'm short of cash ( which has helped me pay off my own cards) - and the things that he puts on his cards are mostly for the both of us - a new tv for example or meals out. I just want to shake him cos it seems like he has been living in cloud cuckoo land and I wish he hadn't purchased so much stuff without us really being able to afford it. i guess I shoudl have second guessed him - but it's really hard to keep track of someone elses finances if you have separate accounts.

The new budget we've worked out has hit me hard - and taken with it any hopes I had of doing a web course this year. It leaves a very small social budget and pretty much nothing for clothes - I know I'm sounding like a spoilt brat but I feel so dissapointed: )

The worst thing is I keep feeling like I want to have a real fight with him (i'm that angry) - am I a really wicked person? _ I thought I loved him so much but I have this terrible realisation that he's not the protector I thought he was and it feels really horrible!

How can i get rid of these nasty feelings? - I'm so scared i'll get mad at him and say something terrible!

yours

Sparkler

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Answers

Two things come to mind.

An old sage said words to the effect, "moderation in all things. Which of course includes screaming "hissy fits."

The other is a suggestion only, maybe the two of you should work out, peacefully, how you all are going to handle things after the overdebt is paid off.

There is so much impossible to think about without nowing more of the situation, but I would say that maybe he isn't so bad after all. Maybe the two of you should keep a log on how much has been spent and what for and the reasons there of and have a reading on your days off to plan, "what next ?"

This is just one old man's viewpoint, simple of course.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Some health insurance plans provide for couples' counselling, or at least subsidize it. Check your rights -- If you want to vent, you might be glad to find an appropriate forum where you aren't likely to inadvertently end your relationship. Based on the facts you report, I think anyone would agree that you have a right to be pretty mad, and you probably owe it to your partner to let him know why. Unless he's really obtuse, he's going to know you're mad about something. Oh -- if you don't have coverage for couples counselling, most clergypersons will voluntarily step in for a one-shot mediation between feuding partners. They might not have equivalent skills and training, but at least can provide a neutral party's presence.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Well, I can give you the other side -- I was the one with the huge debt, and my husband had to pretty much bail me out (I had to live on credit briefly between college and finding a job). And I'm really terrible with budgeting -- credit cards are my downfall. Our way of dealing with it has been to keep our accounts seperate, and whatever I owe is MY problem. As long as I don't blow the rent money or something, Barry stays out of it. I felt awful when he had to help me pay off my old debts, but we set up a plan for me to pay him back. The thing was, I knew he was really disappointed in me, and that was the worst feeling in the world. So it's kept me from getting into debt again.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Your finances are separate. Pay him back what he's paid to help you out. You love him, so you are in the awkward position of trusting him, and shouldn't interfere in his finances, as long as you are handling them separately. If you can't trust him, you are a sucker for being in love with him, and are pulling a cart with a horse in it, which is good for him, but bad for you. If he needs your help, and you agree to do so, don't extend yourself to the point where you can't get out. That only corners you, and no cornered animal can maintain a healthy relationship, as far as I know. It sounds stupid that you are debt free, but can't even spend your own money as you wish. He sounds like a nice guy for buying all that stuff for the both of you, but that was his decision, and you shouldn't have to suffer for it. Guilt makes a poor lover, and you aren't doing him any favors by being his mom.

Your savings is a measure of how free you are. Think of it as a warchest to tell that unpleasant boss of yours to go to Hell. The more dragged into your boyfriend's finances you get, the less leverage you have to change any unpleasant circumstances you have at work or at home.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

I think the comments so far have been good, but I have one question: did you have a joint budget before? Is it necessary for you to have a joint budget? Does he think his debt is a bad thing, or are those your money values you're using to judge him?

Ten grand is a lot of credit card debt. But it is his debt. If he didn't ask you to help pay it off, if you aren't married, if you aren't jointly saving up for something big, or if he's been paying for more than his share of joint expenditures, I'm not sure it's fair for you to get mad at him if you're choosing to bail him out.

I'm the big spender in my relationship. Jeremy is the saver. Sometimes he bails me out at the end of the month, but I still pay for more than half of our joint expenses (I make more money), so I don't think he gets to bitch at me about my credit cards. I don't ask him to help me pay them off, and I wouldn't appreciate it if he adopted the attitude of a martyr about my finances.

On the other hand, he has just offered to take on home equity loan with me to pay off my debts. (His credit is better than mine.) The deal is that I have to pay that off within a couple of years. If I fail to do so, or if I secretly go out and get another credit card and rack up more debts, then he has every right to be mad at me, because we have a pre-existing agreement about finances. But if we didn't do that, if I were just continuing to pay off my own debt while still paying my share of our joint expenses, then I don't really think my debt would be any of his business.

In other words, I think your situation with your boyfriend depends on what agreement you had ahead of time. If you didn't have one, then I'm not sure you have a right to be pissed off at him for the way he spends his own money.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

There are two problems here: his debt and your relationship.

Regarding the former, you should check out the Consumer Credit Counseling Service, a non-profit organization that helps out people who are in debt over their heads. They have deals with a lot of card issuers, so that someone who enters their debt management plan (which involves cutting up all your cards and paying off the outstanding debt over three years) can get interest on the outstanding balance reduced or waived.

Regarding the latter, if you haven't done so already, you need to make a household budget that distinguishes between "my money", "your money", and "our money", and then keep track of what expenses go into which category. (For example, you can have one credit card devoted to household expenses and another devoted to your personal expenses.)

In the short run, I don't know whether or not a hissy fit would improve your situation. In the long run, hopefully, you'll find out whether this $10K debt was a one-time error or a sign of a deeper character flaw.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Sparkler, where do you live? Some of the advice here is specific to America [Consumer Credit Counselling, health insurance] but based on your language it seems you're British or Australian, which would give you different options that those of us overseas might not be aware of.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

I just shared this thread with Jeremy, and he had kind of an interesting reaction, given that he's the anti-credit miser in our house: he felt sorry for the boyfriend who's been held up to this "protector" role and is now in trouble for spending money he didn't have on the person who is now pissed off at him. Since I usually make more money than the guys I date, I haven't really thought about this before, but J says it's pretty common for guys to run themselves into terrible debt during the first year or so of a relationship. It's societal pressure to appear successful and all that. He's not speaking from his own experience, but from the experience of friends, I think.

So no, it's not a good idea to run up huge debts to impress a woman, but it's not really fair to let someone spend money on you and then get mad at them for it, either. I feel a little bad that we're talking about this guy's "character flaws" like he's an ogre, when all he appears to be is kind of dumb about money.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Beth had great answers in both her posts. It sounds like this guy is just foolish about money, not a monster.

I'm all for keeping finances separate, or at least being clear about what's mine, yours, and ours. Everybody needs to money they can spend as they please and don't have to account to anyone for.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Hmm. My first question, honestly, is why you thought that your partner would be your 'protector'. Even if you are legally married, you're responsible for your own protection - while it's nice to have someone who will help you out, the knight on the white horse is a myth. And probably broke, to boot.

Should you 'second guess' him? On anything that legally impacts you (which if you're married, at least in many places, includes credit card debt), absolutely. Otherwise, probably not. If he wants to take on more debt than he should, you may be able to mention that it seems unwise, but it's really none of your problem. If you're sharing debt because you choose to (not because you're legally entwined, financially), then you are making the choice to cut back your budget to pay this off.

Before J and I truly mingled our money, we paid equally toward all of our joint expenses and kept the rest completely separate. While neither of us is a "big saver", I'm much more budget-conscious than he is. He once spent down to his last $20 almost two weeks before payday. Since this was not really an uncommon thing - and I was determined that, if we were going to mingle our money, it would become an unheard-of thing! - I refused to bail him out. Furthermore, I refused to suffer because of it. For almost two weeks, I went out when I wanted, saw movies when I wanted, etc. He sat home and ate spaghetti and wrapped coins. Two years later, I manage all of our money - including his personal credit cards - and neither of us spends more than $100 on anything without coming to a joint agreement first. It works for us, because I don't stress over whether he's spent too much and he never has to worry that he'll run out of money before the end of the month.

As far as feelings go, money is the number one cause of fights among couples, so you definitely shouldn't feel alone. Whether you have the "right" to feel...betrayed or hurt...is not really at issue. You can still love someone even if your rose-coloured glasses are forcefully thrown off. It's just a little harder sometimes.

Talk to him about why you feel hurt, but more specifically, talk about what you want and what you need, financially. Is it security? The ability to buy a new outfit a month? What matters most to you in your budget? I'd sell my TV to buy books, but most people claim they'd die without cable service. It comes down to finding a middle ground where you both get what you need and neither of you feels overburdened. Right now, it appears that you feel overburdened.

Good luck! --Liss

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

I'm wondering why everyone is thinking that Sparkler has to tip-toe around this guy. Societal pressure on this guy to keep up with the Joneses isn't her problem. It's not unfair to get mad at them for spending money on you. It can be cold-hearted, but it's not unfair. I don't know why people are trying to get her to disassociate from feelings she's perfectly entitled to having. If I post something here that pisses someone off, I'm not going to tell anyone that they shouldn't be angry. There's nothing dishonest about feelings, positive or negative.

If your problem is that you're finding it hard to deal with a finance problem you're having with your partner without getting real emotional, I'm wondering if this guy has any reason to believe that you're upset over this situation at all. What are you telling him about how you feel? What happens if his behavior doesn't change 2 years from now, and you 2 are still paying for that 1.6 Gig harddrive he bought in 1996, how's it going to look if you blow up after putting up with his behavior for so long? The answer isn't to get rid of the nasty feelings, because you can't. If he's fine with that situation, you're going to look like a jerk for blowing up. The answer is to give this guy a clue as to why his girlfriend with the nasty feelings is feeling nasty. If he tells you you're getting nasty feelings over nothing, then you need to start wondering if this guy is trying to control you in a way you don't want him to have control. But that's just how it looks to me.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Your situation is tricky, because you're getting mad over something that isn't officially any of your business. He's not entitled to the help you're giving him, but that you are giving the help is making you angry. You need to tell him how you feel.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Yeah! Right on Mike!

Quoting Kim Rollins:

"Relationships shouldn't be work. They shouldn't be stressful. Life is stressful, and love should be a respite from stress, not a contributor to it."

"If I'm not happy with who my lover is, then I need to either learn to overlook the places where I find fault or leave him behind. It is absolutely not my job, nor even within my rights, to turn slobs into neat freaks or workaholics into birdwatchers."

Ergo, you should either accept the guy's debts, or leave. Trying to help him is a waste of your precious fun-time.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Or maybe you feel mad because you feel the help you are giving is underappreciated by him. Maybe you think he should show more appreciation of your efforts without you having to tell him why you are angry? Sparkler, you tease us with the operatic Ally McBeal-like drama of your life!

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Just pull out.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

I'll bet money is the biggest relationship killer out there - having it, not having it, how it's spent, who spends, who keeps track of paying off debt, etc. etc. I think it's because it's tied into so many feelings and beliefs that have nothing at all to do with the direct thing that money is for, which is being able to trade in its value for other things of worth.

Money is ingrained in us as a measure of self-worth, status, power, security, stability... you name it.

So, when we combine our finances with someone else, that also says a lot more than just that we are housing our funds in a common pot - it is about intimacy and trust, and an agreement to agree about some very fundamental rules about how life should be dealt with - I think it's co-equal to the level of partnership needed to raise a child.

Except... money doesn't need to be that tightly co-mingled. And if the co-mingling is causing problems, try separating it and see if they ease up.

Took a long time for me to figure this out - if felt like a betrayal of the relationship to open a separate account, and when I did, it definitely felt like a betrayal to my husband.

But it did us a world of good. I tend to be very tight when none of the money is just 'mine' - I feel like I have no clear right to spend it, and no matter how much there is, I feel broke, with all the sense of insecurity that comes from that.

George is much free-er about spending - more than I am comfortable with, but he's better about being able to face the bills without panicking.

So for us (once we got over the betrayal feelings, and noticed we weren't fighting about it anymore), it has made very good sense to have separate accounts. I have a couple bills that are just for *my* stuff (and am more comfortable about spending for stuff for me since it's only my funds that are in play), and he has a few that are his sole responsibility, and for the rest I give over a portion of my income equal to my percentage of our total income to pay the bills.

We could have done that from one common account, paying ourselves an 'allowance', but it would have been much less successful.

The point being that if I rack up extra debt, it's on me alone to budget out of my income to deal with it, and the same goes for him - we don't make the other have to get dragged down with us.

In theory. Realistically, because we are a family, a reduction in fluid income on either side affects the whole tribe, but it just seems more palatable to have a clear understanding of who is responsible for what, and not feeling forced to live a hardship lifestyle because of the other's choices.

I'd say at the least, take the class - don't toss that into the budget pot. Not having to give up something that is important to you will go a long way to easing the feelings of resentment you're building up.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

First of all you should cut up all of your credit cards, keeping one for emergencies. Don't spend money you don't have. I realize it's the American way but try!

Second you should try to consolidate everything so you're paying one payment at a lower interest rate than before. Consumer Credit counselors are great and they let you budget for clothes too!

Third you might want to figure out why you think your boyfriend/lover/husband is your protector.

Just my opinion

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

For the record, I don't agree with the Kim Rollins lines Dave used to reinforce what I said. I don't think love is easy, and I don't think that's a good idea to carry around. If there's no effort, for no reason other than to keep your guts from spilling out, I'm not sure how anyone could call it love.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Let's just say that I think it's possible for intelligent people to disagree on a subject. (Well, come on. Let's say it. "Kim thinks it's possible...")

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

Me smart? [/:( Me ponder mysteries of love:

Don't know why
Dead bodies come back alive
Stormy weather
Since me and bride not together
It raining all the time

[>:(

Can't go on
Arms and legs me have are gone
Stormy weather
Since me and bride not put together
It raining all the time

[>:(

Skulls are bare
Jars of brains fall everywhere
Stormy weather
Since Bride of Frankenstein not sewn together
It raining all the time

(Shit, I better say something that relates to Sparkler's dilema.)

[>:(

Your boyfriend's spending is no excuse not to take the course.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

Wow thanks for all your responses! Great advice! After writing this and then going to the gym last night and working out hard I managed to dispell most of my anger non violently : ) In fact I had quite a good night out with my partner and some friends ( not cheap but we kept the spending down somewhat). Today I'm feeling that money is still important but not the be-all and come round to the idea of living frugally if it is to an end. BTW - I got my partner to put his credit cards away in a drawer ..I really wanted him to cut 3 of them up - but he wasn't keen as this was a compromise ...and I've decided that i'm going to stick to the new budget ( that means mentally accepting it as well without feeling bitter) I am keen to help him out but because I am sharing this load we've agreed that any purchase we make over #100 will be jointly agreed.

We've always had a budget but to be honest I have been turning a bit of a blind eye recently when he's exeeded it. I think now the horror of the situation has passed I am feeling relieved that were dealing with it.

I think in the past I always saw my partner as much better with money than I was ( he earns more than me and has loads of credit) now that illusion has been broken - which is what I mean't by the protector thing and as I think you'll agree that it's much healthier to see each other as equals - even though I feel that the rugs been pulled form under my feet somewhat.

What else ... well you guys have me sussed - I am British. The counselling is a great idea... i am lucky that I already have a therapist so no doubt she'll get to hear all of this when I next see her: )

Et voila - I love him and we'll work it out

thanks again...

y'all have a good weekend y'hear !!!

Sparkler (more sparky today!)

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

Firstly - for the second thread in a row, I'm with Kim on this one. Love should indeed be easy. Very few things in life are, and the person you want to spend all your time with should make you happy at least 95% of the time, and only a little annoyed and frustrated during the remaining 5%. If the balance isn't tipped that way then they're way too much trouble, and somebody else out there could be better.

(Wow, what a smug married I sound like!)

Now, money. Tristan and I were only together for five months when we got engaged, and we started operating our finances jointly fairly early on in the relationship. We were living together from the start anyway (he was my flatmate - I screwed the crew), and neither of us are the kind of person who can be bothered splitting every single bill - we're more in favour of 'you pay this time, I'll catch it next time'. His last girlfriend before me was a crazy bill-splitting freak, to the point where she'd be arguing about how he'd had one more piece of garlic bread than her, so his share was #2.48 and hers was only #2.13. Some people have too much time on their hands.

So we split the rent, both put the same amount into the savings account, put a fixed amount each month into an account for bills, and did what we liked with the rest, because the essentials had been covered. This worked really well for us. About three months after we were together (before the ring on finger, down on one knee action), his credit card bill came, and it was around #1000. Some of it was stuff we'd done together, some of it was stuff he'd done alone or with the ex. But the money in the savings account was both of ours, so I said we should pay it with that. To me there was no point in him racking up interest on a bill that he couldn't afford to pay alone now, when the joint money could cover it.

Anyway, while on our honeymoon, we got talking about finances (how romantic). I mentioned my student loan, which is about $7,500 and is merrily racking up cumulative interest in New Zealand. His take on the deal was that I'd pay that off. I said no sirree bob, that's a joint debt now, we're a couple, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and lots of other cliches. He saw my point of view immediately (I didn't even have to physically harm him to bring him around to my way of thinking, which is always nice on a honeymoon), and he's said since that that was the first time he fully appreciated what it meant to be committed to somebody else, for life.

So that's a long and meandering way of saying I think, if you're seriously with somebody, you share these things. Although, this does depend on how serious 'serious' is. If you can't or don't feel this is right, than I'd question how you feel about this person. If you think it's his problem, then all power to you, but I wouldn't want to watch my loved one scrimp and save and try and make ends meet without helping them out a bit where I could (although I'd pay the debt off slower and do that course if I was you).

Since we've been married everything has been done via a joint account, and we don't have individual accounts at all. I like it - if I want to have a bit of a blow-out one month then there's so much more money to play with, and if he wants to spend #200 on a pair of shoes the same applies. We are both fairly sensible with money - with a mortgage we don't have much choice now, and we've had no problems with running things this way.

Beth, I really like your forum. Cool, interesting issues.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

Thanks, Jackie. I like it, too.

I think that "love should be easy" rule is great for those of you who are perfect and easy to live with and completely without hangups, quirks, or neuroses, and have found your perfect mate who is likewise free of flaws. The rest of us, alas, are reduced to dating other humans, because flawless cyborgs won't have anything to do with us. This leads to the result that love is often difficult, because people aren't perfect, and over the long term, that sometimes causes difficulties. In order to live with this terrible state of affairs, we are forced to delude ourselves into believing that love and relationships are more meaningful when two people grow together, get through the hard times and come out on the other side as someone other than who they were when the relationship started. We have to cling to the notion that as long as you are growing together, everything is all right, because if we didn't have that little delusion, we'd spend our lives looking for someone perfect. Since all you perfect people are already dating one another, we'd just have to kill ourselves.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

Here - hear, Form from etc... I'm sorry people... my only excuse is a raging hangover ; )!!

Oh god now I sound like i've got alcohol as well as money problems! My internet reputation is in tatters! : P

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

I'm glad that Sparkler feels that her problems are somewhat under control. I just wanted to post to say that I don't think it's wise to assume that a relationship is not "serious" or "intimate" if you don't have joint finances. I've been married for nine years; my husband and I lived together for several years before that, and we have always had separate bank accounts, even when I was in law school and he was working. Now, we have a joint account just for the rent and utilities, because its easier than splitting the amounts in half and making all the calculations; we contribute equally to the joint account from our separate ones. Now, we are lucky in that we earn enough, and are scared of debt enough, that we have never really had any serious financial pressures. Our spending priorities are different enough, though, that keeping our funds separate prevents fights. (Not that we disagree over how much to spend, more that we disagree over WHAT to spend it on.) This works for us. Other people have different strategies. It sounds like Sparkler and her boyfriend are on the way to finding one that works for them; the point I'm making is you need to decide where your conflicts are, whether they are ones that can really affect your financial health, and figure out a way to not get in big money trouble while, if possible, accommodating your different views on the subject.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

Regarding the joint finances thing - I know much more couples managing their finances separately, and they all seem very happy with the arrangement. Whatever works for you.

This is way waaayyy off the original topic now, but this whole 'love should be easy' thing has got me intrigued. It comes down to this for me  are you there for the journey or the destination? I want my whole life to be good, and if that was to mean three fantastic years married to Tristan and then being hit by a bus and cut off in my prime, then Id prefer it to 30 years with somebody else. If your unique flaws and neuroses compliment those of the person youre with, youll make each other happy. You dont need to be perfect.

In my opinion, it is almost fashionable and certainly more socially acceptable to not be happy. Nobody feels all that friendly to somebody who claims to have a great job, a fab flat, a perfect partner, a size 8 figure, flawless skin and long beautiful hair. Some things are fixable, some aren't. I'll never have perfect skin, my job pisses me off at times, and at times so does Tristan. However, as I've got older I've developed what I can only call a 'shit or get off the pot' mentality to life. In practice this means that if you tell me you hate your flatmates so much you want to kill them, and I say move out, you obviously don't have to do what I say. But if you're still moaning about the same flatmates three months later than you'll get scant sympathy from me.

The same rule applies with relationships. If you're with somebody who doesn't make you happy at least a huge proportion of the time, why are you with that person? Are you scared to be alone? Do you think there's nobody else out there? Are you so used to viewing life as slightly unsatisfactory that you think it's normal to be unhappy with somebody? (please remember here that I'm not a regular reader of this site, so I apologise if I'm stomping all over somebody's recent relationship problems).

I really think we're expected to have something to complain about. Get into a conversation with your fellow workmates, especially the women. Start talking about diets. Candidly state that you don't diet because you are perfectly happy with your shape, and eat a big sticky bun while you do it. You won't be part of their gang. So, some of us bitch about our weight, others work in jobs we dont enjoy, and others maintain relationships with people that are sometimes more hassle than theyre worth. But a few of us shamelessly admit to being happy with our lot in life. So sue me. Anybody who has encountered me in any form knows pretty quickly how less than perfect I am, but Im happy with my state of affairs.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

See, I wouldn't go as far as 95% wonderful, but I'm in on a two-thirds majority of Good Times v. Bad Times. Maybe this is less difficult for me to acheive than some people because I can, to a certain extent, decide whether or not something is going to bother me, so long as it's a relatively minor trouble. I know one couple that used to get into raging fights because the man always left the tub-spigot-stopper up, so that the shower would automatically flip on when the tap was opened. Every day the woman would get soaked with icy water. Wil always left the stopper in the up position too, but I figured this out and just readjusted my routine so that I opened the tap with only my arm inside the shower curtain. (Funnily, I brought this issue up years later, after we'd already broken up, and he said that he thought the stopper just dropped down automatically when he closed the tap, because "It was always down when *I* got up in the morning.")

More generally: if someone didn't make me happy most of the time, I really don't know why I'd fall in love with him in the first place, or stay in love with him after the problems set in. I've pretty much decided that I'm going to pull a Katharine Hepburn and never marry nor have children, so that's my perogative.

The solution to problems isn't always "ditch him," and I'm sorry I was so vague that what I said could be taken that way. Sparkler's boyfriend may have done something clue-free that is now making her temporarily miserable, but if she looks over the relationship and sees that she has been happy a majority of the time, I would advise her to endeavor to deal with it. Certainly during the nine years I spent with Wil [longer than a lot of our friends' marriages] there were fights, recriminations, tears, but it was overbalanced by the opposite for a long, long time.

I didn't always think this way. Most of my high school relationships were more trouble than they were worth, but I thought it was normal that having a boyfriend brought you more strife, not less, and I put up with nigh-intolerable amounts of cluelessness, meanness, and bad sex.

If you don't break up when your boy becomes more disagreeable than otherwise, what *does* get you to break up? Isn't unhappiness pretty much the universal signal that it's time to be moving along? I think I differ with others only in proportions; most people wait till it gets - - oh, I dunno -- a much higher percentage of Bad, anyway.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

I'm glad it works for you, Jackie, but I really disagree with "you're seriously with somebody, you share these things". I know you said later on that separate finances work for some people you know, but I guess I'm sensitive because so many of our friends & family have found out that we don't share our finances & have scolded us for it. Sheesh.

I was unemployed for several months and he supported me during that time. But I paid him back when I got a job. It would have felt wrong not to do so. It also made it easier for him to not nag me about trying harder to find work, than if he saw me spending his money that he'd never get back.

I think things have to be good about 3/4 of the time, or why bother. But there will always be bad times. The key is whether you're both motivated to work through them, or at least get through them together.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

Continuing off-topic, I'll throw my hat into the "whatever works for you" ring, with the caveat that it has to be hashed out so that everyone involved knows what that working is supposed to be.

The whole joint finance thing reminds me of my parents. My father made a shitload more money than my mother, and I understand they always had separate finances. He paid the mortgage and utilities and taxes and whatnot, and probably allowed her what he considered a reasonable sum for the three of us. He drove new cars (every two years), had a large (I don't say tasteful, just large) wardrobe, and gave extravagant presents twice a year (Christmas and birthday). She had a small, polyester wardrobe; made most of our clothes until we put our pubescent feet down against that; and served a lot of chicken instead of the red meat she honestly believed was healthier (leading him to eat most of his evening meals away from home because he hated chicken, which meant to him that she'd need less money for groceries, which meant more chicken and casseroles, which became a cycle). A teeny example.

I myself think that separate finances might work fine in a relationship where the two partners have similar incomes. My husband makes 4x what I do, and if that entitled him to 4x as much food, clothing, electricity, car, books, etc., that would be no marriage in my book. Actually that would be my parents' marriage, and thus no marriage at all.

Of course, if the higher-earning partner feels sponged upon, or if the lower-earning partner expects it as a matter of course, then there are those opportunities for conflict as well.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

Regarding this whole, "love should be easy" vs. "love tends to be difficult" thing.. here's my two cents are so.

First of all, I don't think we're really talking about love, we're talking about being in a loving relationship, and that's a little different. I think that everybody realizes (or should) that relationships take a little work. You're not going to be able to just live happily ever after without ever putting work into the relationship. You have to talk about stuff, you have to work out problems. You have to decide, when the two of you want to handle a problem or situation in different ways, how to work it out with some kind of reasonable compromise.

But I don't think that ANY of that means that relationships are "difficult." I mean, yeah, I've had arguments with my life-in boyfriend. I've shed a few tears. But I've never spent whole days angry at him, and we've never had a fight we couldn't resolve. I don't walk around miserable all the time. My relationship is a major part of my life, and I definitely would not describe my life as "difficult" right now.

I don't know, maybe this is all semantic. I guess I'm just sensitive about all the people who told me "Oh God, it's going to be a nightmare" or "good luck -- you'll need it," when I told them I was moving in with my boyfriend. It hasn't been like that at ALL, and I see no reason it would have to be, if two people love each other enough and are committed to working out any differences that arise.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

Well now....maybe love *should* be easy, but in my (probably fairly limited and dysfunctional) experience, it often isn't. What it is, though, is easier than not being with the one you love. Most of the time. Or at least really, really missing the one you love when s/he's not there, so that when you're together again things seem easy, if only for a short while. Or until he bounces the joint account. ;)

I don't think I'd ever want to completely merge our finances, if only because want to be able to buy presents, extravagantly expensive books and ridiculous things for him without him saying "gee honey, it's nice and all, but you spent HOW much on it?!". If I have my own account, then he doesn't have to know. Since we make roughly the same amount, we just each transfer (okay, I transfer from each single account) 1/4 of the monthly budget (savings included) each payday. Though it may be worth noting that even our separate accounts are actually joint, though neither of us carries a checkbook or ATM card for the other's account. Signatory and survivorship rights in case of an oh-so-romantic disaster.

Love: easy, romantic, and fun, all in one forum. Geesh.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

This had really made me think about why we actually have joint finances now! I think it was pretty much automatic, we just did it. It's worked well for us, but the funny thing is, before we had a joint account, I was the one more likely to be broke at the end of the month, whereas now I'm the one who takes much more interest in what our financial situation is like. My mother never thought she'd live to see the day!

I guess it's entirely a 'whatever works' issue. For us, it would be very odd now to separate our finances out - it's very simple for us to just work one account. All the bills and mortgage payments leave from it, we both have money cards for it, and we don't have to pay any attention to writing cheques for our share of stuff, or transferring money around. So I give joint finances a big thumbs-up if you're as essentially lazy and disinclined to visit your bank as I am!

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2000

I'm coming into this discussion a bit late, so I apologize if I'm saying something that has already been said. I have two comments. First of all, you say that your boyfriend/husband has $10,000 in credit card debt, and you say he makes a lot more than you do. I don't know how long you've been together, but is it possible that you're more accustomed to thinking in terms of your own income level rather than his? A debt is unreasonably large only in the context of how much money the person makes. If your SO is making, say, 80K a year, 10K in debt is, while not ideal, pretty managable.

Secondly, you seem angry largely because you feel your image of him as a provider/protector has been betrayed. Does he know that you've been thinking of him in this way? Has he done anything to encourage you to think this? (other than buying you things, which he could be doing to be nice, rather than to project an affluent image) Its not uncommon for someone to project qualities onto their partner that have more to do with their own issues than reality.

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2000

What works for us, with our separate accountings, is to each contribute the same amount toward shared expenses. I make somewhat more than him, but I don't think it would be fair if I had to pay more because he earns less. Although I make more, I have more debt, so the amount of money we actually have free is pretty even. We choose things that we both can afford.

So that covers house payments, house expenses, and shared food. Just about everything else, clothes, each of our cars, books, etc., we each pay for ourselves without accounting to the other. For instance, he and a buddy have bought season tickets to the Giants new ballpark, for 8 seats, which was quite a chunk of money, and are now selling some. That's something I'd never do, but what the heck, it's his money.

I don't see how love can be easy all the time, just because people change over the long haul. If things are good, you can talk about what's different and make adjustments. Lots of times that isn't easy, though.

-- Anonymous, April 10, 2000