I've just seen on the news and read on the internet that 2 Leeds fans have been stabbed to death in a night of trouble in Istanbul. I don't know enough details to have an opinion or cast sapersions but it would seem that it may have been a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time rather than actively seeking trouble.
However that is not really of importance is it?
2 football fans who went to see their team play football have been murdered
what a f***ed up world we still live in.

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2000

Answers

Saw some gruesome pictures on BBC WORLD, the game is still going to played, although Leeds fans have been told to stay at home - a bit late now!

What an irony; 2 Leeds players in deep $hit for aggro and now 2 young fans lose their lives. :-(

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Something bad happens every time an English side goes there, it is renowned for trouble, if it were up to me they would be kicked out of the comp. Where was the police presence, even if the did show up it would be no comfort - they got into MANU players in the tunnel a few years ago I seem to remember.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Tony,

Got to agree with you...without knowing all the facts it's difficult to know where to apportion any blame but it strikes me as more than coincedental that there is trouble there EVERY time an english club plays.....Turkish clubs seem to revel in their fans creating this atmosphere of hatred, they even seem to actively encourage it!!

It's MORE than time something was done about it....

The match should definitely be cancelled and every Leeds fan should be escorted from the country....only a f*****G fool could be stupid enough to believe that this isn't gonna kick off again TODAY!

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Definitely the Jekyll and Hyde's of this world, the Turks. I hope they will be barred from international competition, and in fact I reckon the game should be called off and Leeds should be awarded the tie, even at this late stage.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

My heart sank this morning when I read the papers. OK, the details are sketchy at the moment, but whatever they are, we have another football related tragedy. Whether the two people involved were innocent revellers, or had precipitated the violence, nobody should die over a game of football. My sympathies go out to the families of these two.

I too am amazed that matches continue to be played at this statium. The atmosphere always seems to be too hostile, and the police ineffectual or too aggressive. Has anyone on this BBS been there? I`d like to know your opinion.

Why does it seem to me that the powers that be in footbal seem quick to condemn the English for bad behaviour, yet seem to do nothing to contol the `known` hotspots, such as this Turkish stadium, and Marseilles, for instance. (and when I say control, I don`t mean batton charges.) Another thing I have noticed is that there are still many stadia outside of the UK with high wire fencing between the fans and the pitch - why is this still accepted?

I know that we still have plenty of idiots travelling from England who are prepared to cause trouble, but at least we do seem to have tried to address the problem. I don`t see much effort outside of the UK - or am I missing something?

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

"IT IS BOUND TO AFFECT THE ENGLISH BID FOR THE 2006 WORLD CUP" Sanctimonious basta*ds, two brothers go to European cup match and one has to identify the body and people spout off about the World cup. It simply isn't worth it.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Talking to some Chelsea fans here at work who went to Istanbul and said it was the hairiest experience of their lives , even travelling with Chelses own brand of nutters , who apparently quietly ' did a job ' on Turkish hoolies , but was all weapon related . They said every corner turned there was no idea what happened next . It seems like has been said already this side's followers are very driven by violence and are living in the dark ages . I have a turk here at work and have met a few in my time , and find them all very dour , sexist , opinionated , badly dressed w***ers . I cant quite work out which planet they are from . Anyhow im rambling . The point is that this could have been us .. how would we feel then ? Anyone can be in the wrong place at the wrong time following soccer as i have proved myself this season . My heart goes out to those injured and the families of the bereaved as these are lads who have gone away for a good time and follow their club , and are now either dead or have been butchered by complete neanderthals . Im sorry im losing it here this has really left a very bad taste in my mouth , the team should be thrown out of the cup nad be banned along with all othe Turkish sides ... didnt that happen to English sides a few years back ? Just a disgrace and far too close to home for my liking . :- (

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

That there was a TV crew there the second it kicked off and the Leeds fans were goaded by the Turks in the first place tells a story.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Deepiest sympathy to the families of those lads killed. Watch the news last night and it seemed that the police were ignoring the turkish lads and just arresting the Leeds fans. I love my team and dearly want to watch them but when it comes to losing a life its not worth it. I vow never to go to Turkey to watch the toon, they are just a bunch of hooligans that are condone by the police and FIFA will do F*ck all because it is not an english side. If this had happened in England we would be banned for years and slagged off forever. Again deepest sympathy AM

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

>>"badly dressed w***ers"<<

Perhaps the worst crime of all, eh :-)

Sorry to be flipant.

Anyways, I agree that the bit I didn't get was the instant media blame on English fans and linking this horrendous incident to Euro2000 and the World Cup bid.

There does seem to be Turkish bother in any international game - which begs the question, doesn't UEFA or FIFA ever take any action against the Turkish FA?

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

theyre prolly shit scared theyll get a kicking . Sorry Bob about the badly dressed bit , but i was just venting frustration and directing it at the Turk who is sitting opposite me , he has terrible shirt tie combo and pointy slip ons on , heinous man heinous ! Sorry everyone just trying to make light of a bad sitch , i knaa one thing , id hate to be a kebab shop owner in Leeds tonight .

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Grant

Don't fret mate, anyone with that kind of outfit on needs a stern lesson in fashion sense. Perhaps if I lent him some of my kipper ties, orange loon jeans and beads he'd become a cooler person :-)

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Admitted on another thread that I was full of useless information, so make what you want out of this true fact regarding The Turks. Studies after the Korean War into brainwashing carried out by the North Koreans and Chinese Communists revealed little of what we knew already, ie the yanks due to their materialistic life style were a doddle, memory serves me correctly the figure of 68% were turned over, 2 Brits, (one was taking the p-ss), but try as they may the baddies could not turn over one Turk, is/was it due to way of life, language, religion, don`t know , but we should now hit them where it hurts, tourism and kebabs, nobody eats Turkish Delight these days do they?

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

(Adds Galatasaray say match to go ahead,. 16 fans deported) By Pelin Turgut ISTANBUL, April 6 (Reuters) - Thursday's flashpoint UEFA cup match in Turkey is set to go ahead despite the death of two English fans in running street battles overnight, a spokesman from Istanbul club Galatasaray said. The two Leeds United supporters died of stab wounds as violent clashes erupted on the eve of the first leg UEFA Cup semi-final match. "The match is going to be played this evening," Galatasaray official Mete Razlikli told Reuters. "Arrangements have been made to bring the fans to and from the stadium." Police said four other Leeds supporters and a Turkish man had been injured in the fighting, which broke out on Wednesday evening in Istanbul's central Taksim entertainment district. Two of the Britons were in a serious condition. Stunned Leeds fans, holed up in hotel lobbies, said they were worried about getting to and from the game but wanted the match to go ahead. "This is unbelievable," said one. "You come here to watch a football game, you don't come here to die." British officials identified the dead as Christopher Loftus, 37, and Kevin Speight, age unknown. Those with Loftus when he was killed said they were ambushed as they came out of a bar. "This was a premeditated attack. We came out of a bar and there were 100 people waiting for us with machetes, knives, bits of chair and table legs and they just attacked us," said middle-aged Leeds supporter Steve Wilkinson. "The police did nothing, in fact they were helping them beat us up." Wilkinson, with knife wounds to one leg and a hand in bandages, sat in a hotel lobby with 10 other English fans all bruised and bandaged, some bearing stab wounds. "If it wasn't premeditated then why were the TV cameras and police there?" said Wilkinson. "To stab someone in the chest is intent to murder and these guys should be tried for that." He said he and others had picked out Loftus's alleged killer in a police line-up in the early hours of the morning. Leeds chairman Peter Ridsdale said details of how the confrontation began were sketchy. "There was some suggestion Leeds fans were getting boisterous but there was also a very clear indication that Turkish supporters came to confront them already equipped with knives," he said. "It's going down as one of those black nights in history unfortunately." A leading Galatasaray official said the incident had nothing to do with the Turkish club. "The incident is very, very sad. I don't think it reflects in any way on Galatasaray," board member Aziz Ustel told the BBC. "We have had previous matches with all the European clubs in Turkey and nothing has ever happened. "This is the first time such an incident has taken place in Istanbul." Turkish police have confiscated knifes, hatchets and kebab-cutters ahead of big matches. Stabbing and even shooting incidents are not unknown after domestic games. INSULTS SPARK KILLINGS Turkish police said the clashes erupted when drunken English fans insulted Galatasaray supporters and taunted them over a 5-0 home defeat to English club Chelsea last year. NTV television channel said 16 Leeds supporters had been deported and "many Turks" had been arrested in connection with the killings. "Turkish police have given assurances that they will do everything in their power to bring those responsible to justice," a British official told Reuters. Television footage showed fans brandishing sticks and hurling chairs during the clashes. One Leeds fan was shown giving the kiss of life to another man lying apparently lifeless on the street, his shirt soaked in blood. Galatasaray Coach Fatih Terim had earlier called on supporters to give Leeds a traditional "welcome to Hell" in the intimidating Ali Sami Yen stadium. "Their chanting should make Ali Sami Yen Hell for Leeds United." Leeds supporters hung up a giant poster in their hotel: "Hello Hell, we are Leeds," it read. Although English fans have a long record of violence abroad, British media said Leeds fans had not been involved in any major incidents of hooliganism since May 1990 when they went on the rampage in the English seaside resort of Bournemouth. For related news, double click on one of the following codes: [SPO][UKI][EMK][G][RNP][DNP][PTD][PGS] [SOCC][GB][EUROPE][WEU][EEU][TR][MEAST][EMRG][ASIA][NEWS][CRIM][VIO] [LEN][RTRS] Thursday, 06 April 2000 11:54:37 GMT RTRS [nL06409688]

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

This tragedy is appalling , my sympathies go out to the family and friends of those killed an injured in Istanbul.

If the boot were on the other foot and two Turkish lads had been killed in Leeds after a night of violence, then UEFA and FIFA, would be talking about banning English clubs from future competitions. Turkey and Turkish clubs should be banned from future competitions until they learn to behave in a civilised manner.

As for what we can do to show our repulsion.

Why not BOYCOTT TURKEY. Don't consider it as an option for a holiday, stay away from the place.

Hopefully instead of daft headlines about "England World cup bid in doubt" one or more of the newspapers can start a "Stay away from Turkish holiday resorts" campaign.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

I'm agreeing with sentiments such as they should be banned. This is NOT THE FIRST TIME that turkish clubs have been violent. i would be on the verge of demanding a forfeit of the game for such a crime. I am normally not a reactionary on such matters as they are always overblown but this is the worst scenario I have ever witnessed, it is a bloody disgrace.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

here here Rik , I for one will not be going to Turkey this year , and i certainly wont be buying any of Mr Matthews' drummers either .

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

It's all a tragedy, and sounds ominously like the Turkish police were more than involved - if they normally confiscated weapons, why did they not do so in the instance, even though they were in attendance when the Turkish fans gathered outside the bar?

English fans, and in this case Leeds fans, aren't totally blameless (although I'm sure the majority are and nobody, regardless of how obnoxious they are, deserves to die for it, not even a Mackem). There will in my opinion always be bad blood if English supporters go abroad with an attitude of aggressive condescention and disrespect.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Have to agree with the sentiment on wanting Turkish clubs banned from European competition. There's just no excuse to allow the level of hatred and inevitable violence when another club comes to town. Is it only with visiting English clubs? Sure it's easy to argue that a foreign fan may have started things by saying the wrong thing or a gesture, but then how do you explain even teams being intimidated and attacked? It should not be tolerated. It's only a game at the end of the day,not worth people lying dead or injured because of who they do or do not support. I will never understand hooliganism of any kind and that kind of hatred. :-(

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

I know what you mean Windy. It's far too often the same clubs that seem to get mixed up in serious trouble. There is never even a flicker of surprise when I hear that Chelsea fans have yet again been "picked on" by foreign police, and Leeds fans enjoy a similar (though markedly less so) reputation for unpleasantness.

The reports coming back are terribly one-sided at present, but this talk of wandering out of a bar to be confronted by the media, the police and one hundred armed maniacs simply doesn't ring true. It's far more likely that Leeds supporters have been "giving it large" and discovered that the Balkans and Near East does not work that way. Here it's all piss and wind for the most part. People shout abuse at each other and square up but outbreaks of actual physical violence are rare. Welcome to a different way of doing things.

You couldn't get me to Turkey with wild horses (thank you Alan Parker) but I certainly know better than to insult people from that neck of the woods. There isn't a tradition and culture of armed violence in Britain but there is, and always has been, in Turkey. This is no secret, so how any group of visiting fans could be stupid enough to go out on the town is beyond me. It may not be right that people behave in this way, but that's the reality of it, so you either recognize it or get hurt.

Obviously nobody deserves to get killed over nothing like this, but if you had to chose a set of people who enjoy the reputation for being hard then I would look no further than Leeds. You add that loveable Yorkie charcteristic of massive chip on the shoulder, insistence that they are all the hardest man in the world and combine it with Turkish pride and willingness to take an argument to violence then you have a recipe for disaster.

I'm not asking to be shot down for not knowing what happened last night, but I'm also not ready to lend tacit support to the idea that Turks are subhuman; they are simply from a completely different background to us. Don't be surprised if the Turkish angle focuses on Leeds fans drinking, spitting and swearing - things we all take for granted, but not the norm elsewhere.

Anyway, we'll have to see what comes out of it all over the next few weeks,I'm just really glad we didn't beat Roma and end up out there ourselves.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Agree entirely Softie, and much more eloquently put. Dropping your trousers wouldn't have gone down too well either. It might seem ridiculous to us that they take things so seriously, but as you say it's a reality. Still think, though, there should be a full investigation, and a hefty punishment for Turkey if the truth is as being portrayed in the scraps of reports coming back. ie I'm not condoning the stabbing (god forbid), but just agree that it's not always surprising and incidents won't cease until some fans attitudes cease.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

For the record, Turkey is a beautiful country and I have found most Turkish people to be extremely friendly and hospitable. I am good friends with a Turkish couple who live in London one of whom supports Galatasary. I know he will be horrified by what has happened and it will be interesting to get the other side of the story from him (via Turkish TV and press).

It is tragic but lets not write off a whole country because of the actions of some lunatics.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Windy and Softie, excellent points about fan behavior while in "enemy" territory. Respect for other cultures should really be common sense for any traveller no matter the reason for their visit. Sadly it seems lacking in far too many people and not just football fans. Still, I don't think it's right that teams or supporters should feel intimidated by the very idea of going to another country. Yes, there's a certain amount of verbals, it's part of the atmoshpere. But when even the most sensible people are left feeling "I'm glad it wasn't us playing there", something is wrong. That's where FIFA or UEFA or whoever needs to step in and demand a certain level of protection...especially for teams. Not sure how much anyone can really do about supporters. All the chartered flights/buses/special hotels/info sheets in the world won't keep anyone from getting out to mix with the locals if they're determined to go. And I don't believe that, in general, Turkey is such a horrible place. Just people getting on with their lives the same as anywhere else. It's one thing to create an intimidating atosphere inside the grounds, but I just think it's wrong to intimidate people from even visiting a city. On the other hand, if someone mouths off and starts trouble, I can't have a lot of sympathy for any but their families and any innocent bystanders who get caught in the middle. Stupidity, unfortuantely, is universal. :-/

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Arsenal to pay a silent tribute to the Leeds fans tonight at Highbury. I thought silence at Highbury was the norm anyway?

LONDON, April 6 (Reuters) - Leeds United's premier league rivals Arsenal will pay a silent tribute at Thursday's UEFA Cup semifinal against Racing Lens to two Leeds fans killed in Istanbul. A spokesman for Arsenal said the tribute would take place before kick-off of the first leg at Highbury. "There will be a period of silence before kick-off," said spokesman Dan Tolhurst. Two Leeds United fans were stabbed to death during clashes on the eve of the club's semifinal first leg against Turkish champions Galatasaray on Wednesday.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Judging by the flavour of previous postings, this might sound heretical - but is it possible that some Leeds supporters might now empathise with the Asian lad who was worked over ALLEGEDLY by Bowyer, Woodgate and a gang of others, allegedly of course?

Retribution in spades, as they say?

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

had on a second here Softie , i welcome your thoughts , but speaking from experience of following Newcastle around in Europe I just cannot agree with your blatant ' they are from a different culture so we should understand ' statement . How many people go on holiday drink beer , and dont get in bother . How many football fans do the same the world over ? Millions . just how many go abroad and see 2 supporters killed and 3 SERIOUSLY injured . The inference in your spiel is that the Leeds fans shouldve known better , or are too thick / pissed to realise whats in front of their face . Very easy for you to say , but you certainly would not have had this slant on things if this had been Newcastle United . I feel sick to the stomach that football fans like me can go for a drink , be boisterous and then get killed . It has to have been premeditated ... this is not a game anymore when things like this happen . For the record as we speak it is kicking off in Istanbul at the moment , oh happy days :- (

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Sting,

Where'd ya get this info that it's kicking off again in Istanbul?

I hope not...seriously! even though I've said all day that it's bloody obviously gonna happen!!

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

gav i speak directly to our branch in Istanbul daily on a real time dealing system caled Reuters dealing 2002 , theyve confirmed local news has reported further skirmishing , no details at the mo , ill keep u posted .

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

I remember Heysel and not being old enough to really understand the implications of it. I remember being told about what Shankly said all those years ago about how football was more important than life and death.
For the first time in my life I realise how wrong that quote is.
I've never been to an Away European match to see the Toon. But I've laughed like the rest of us about the story of the fans in Barcelona nicking a street cleaner and the story of 14 being arrrested for 'causing a disturbance' in a brothel (ANy body on here?)
Pissed up lads having a good time in a foreign city but I hope to God that no Newcastle team ever has to go to Istanbul. I feel sick to the stomach now, and had it been us over there well, think about it Roma, dodgy penalty........

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Sting, I'm sorry if that's how it comes accross, but the adage about "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" still holds true. The huge difference between going on holiday and getting trolleyed and going to Istanbul for a football match is that the holiday resorts are used to that sort of behaviour. The British way of getting pissed up and leery is not universally acceptable. My point is that the typical British reaction to menacing behaviour from rival fans is exactly what it would be over here, ie assume it is 99% bravado and match it. Sadly, on the edge of Europe there is a completely different set of values, and unless you fancy taking it to the next logical stage as the locals see it you're better off walking away.

It's almost like we accept the British version of hooliganism. People act up, shout abuse, occasionally give someone a kicking, but the moment baseball bats and knives turn up everyone is horrified and calls for a crackdown on organized violence, as though regular every- day casual violence is cool, but nasty, armed violence is somehow something different. Well, in Turkey, people fight with blades and bottles and clubs and sometimes guns. Moral of the story is, don't pick fights in Turkey unless you're prepared to do it their way.

I'm not trying to be callous, although I realise that I am coming accross as a right sanctimonious windbag, but the problem here isn't that Turks are animals, it's that different cultures are mixing in the wrong way. If we were as ferociously opposed to all forms of violence in our football culture then how differently would we react to menacing behaviour from opposing fans abroad? Why did all the headlines from the English trouble in Marseille in 1998 go on about drunken rampages? The Tunisians certainly weren't drinking, but we have to explain it in a way that makes sense to us. We shouldn't insist on this stupid colonial attitude where our way is the best so we can do what we like abroad.

If a group of 2,000 Turkish men arrived in Newcastle and felt that any woman showing her hair was a whore and therefore deserved to be verbally and physically abused and that pissing in the street was normal, I reckon there might be a bit of trouble, don't you? Funny how foreigners don't seem to find it difficult to conform to our codes of conduct when over here, though, isn't it? Do you not think we're just the slightest bit culpable if we don't know how to respect other people's way of life?

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Leeds chairman Peter Ridsale confirmed that, following an emergency meeting, Uefa had decided to press ahead with the game.

He said: "We had three options, one was for the match never to be played should we have decided to have pulled out of tonight's fixture and therefore withdrawn from the tournament.

"The other was to have rescheduled the game, but that would have led to an impossible situation through heightened tensions.

"The third was to go ahead and play the game. The Uefa view was that it should go ahead as planned and we accept that."

Admittedly I don't know all the ins and outs of the situation but why, just out of interest should it have had to been Leeds who had to pull out of the tie should it have been cancelled. Surely the Turkish side would have had to take the majority of the responsibility for this one.

I just feel that it puts a completely different slant on travelling abroad to watch your team and I know that myself, as a woman would be most reluctant to go and watch any Toon European Matches, or any England ones for that matter. It seems that English football fans are just as much at risk from the foreign police as the foreign fans and we have no protection once abroad. We are immediately classed as hooligans and persucuted as such. I listened for hours on end as a group of England fans told me how they were treated in France during the World Cup, by fans and police alike, and they didn't even make a whiff of trouble over there. They just wanted to watch their team play.

I'd also just like to send my deepest sympathies to the family and friends of the Leeds fans who were killed. Football meant to be a sport you can take your family to watch and it should never degenerate into this sort of violence. :-((

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Nice exposition on cultural relativism, Softie. Says it all, I think.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Apparently they are starting to deport a load of Leeds fans. No doubt the worlds press will be treated to the spectacle of a bunch of rowd ENGLISH SOCCER HOOLIGANS getting kicked out. Obviously it's all there fault. I bet the cameras wont be near any of the machety weilding Turks as they vent their anger towards the rest of the Leeds fans on there way to and from the game tonight.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Oh dear, not again! As usual a very mature debate on her about yet another appalling football tragedy.

I have to nail my colours firmly to the mast here, and say that I am in total agreement with Softy's thesis.

Of course, we don't yet know the full details of what actually happened in this case, but it is so very easy and very convenient to blame others, especially Johnny Foreigner.

I'm afraid the reality is that the dreadful reputation of English fans goes before them now wherever they go, and the local toughs are now always prepared and ready for them.

The tragedy then of course is that those who get attacked are not necessarily looking for real aggro. This is the end product of developing such a poor reputation abroad - which doesn't seem to apply to most other nation's supporters, although the Germans and Dutch seem to be following in our bloodied footsteps.

The other contributory factor to this kind of violence, as Softy rightly suggests, is the appalling "colonial attitude" dislayed by so many Brits abroad, which arrogantly dismisses other cultures and insists that "our way is the best, so we can do what we like".

This is an appalling tragedy, and time may prove whether the Leeds fans were or were not blameless. Neverthless, until the English, and in particular our football fans, rebuild their reputation, and learn how to behave with respect towards different cultures, these kinds of tragedies will continue to lurk around every dark corner of every foreign field.

BTW, IMO Leeds should have withdrawn from the fixture. Given the loss of life experienced, the fixture becomes nothing more than a grotesque manifestation of commercial greed over due sensitivity towards the bereaved.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

So sad, what's happened in Istanbul. Unfortunately, my father's people know too well what happens when you are outnumbered and outgunned by turks. The Greeks and Turks are closer today than they have been in years but neither side really trusts the other.

Never been to Constantinople but let me share an experience in Giants stadium, New Jersey USA. The local side, the Metrostars were playing a friendly against Galatasaray. This is a place I've been to about 100 times but I had to rub my eyes for what was happening before me (not bad really). There was a giant cloth with Kemal Attaturk's face covering an entire section across from me that I had to look at throughout the game. It was the hottest day of the year, over 100 degrees, and I was one of about 3 Metrostars fans at the stadium. Needless to say, they were a loud group and I was very happy the turks went home victorious.

A few months later I bought a bed from a young turkish salesman. He asked me if I was greek and all was well as we exchanged pleasantries. Then I made the mistake of telling him about the game, that I was a bit intimidated (he was at the game). His face changed completely and he couldn't believe that I felt threatened!

I've been close enough to see turkey on a clear day. It's an interesting place but not for me.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

I`m in full agreement with you there Clarky - Leeds should have withdrawn from the match, even if it meant withdrawing from the competition. And by the way, full marks to both you and Softie for having the courage to play devil`s advocate - raising very valid points, which will often not get discussed in the heat of the immediate moment. It has made me think a bit harder about the bigger picture.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

I fear the worst. So really there is no need to try on Sunday since all English clubs will be banned from Europe. Oh the irony. We win the FA cup and get barred from Europe. How, how, how totally f***in' typical. If there are any Turks planning on going to the return leg, they will be well advised not too. Leeds fans will want some revenge and on the football field isn't going to do it. This really is messed up.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Those on here saying that "Leeds shouldn't have played tonight" haven't really thought it through. OK so it may have been the decent thing to do, but it would have been the most stupid thing to do. What kind of message would this send out to the Turks, Italians, Dutch or even British Hooligans. KILL ONE OF THE VISITING FANS AND YOUR TEAM GOES THROUGH BY DEFAULT? just as happened in Galatasaray.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

I'm with Rik on this one.....first of all, my deepest sympathies go out to the family and friends of those two lads killed and anyone else who hwas injured, but to suggest pulling the game was totally wrong and would certainly send the wrong message.

When matches have been stopped in the past, they have always continued later.

Rangers at SJP 1969...only went down because we were winning and they were going out of the Fairs Cup semi final....I was 13 at the time and was standing in the old Main Stand Paddock that night when my old man got hit by one of the bottles.....

Nottingham Forest 1974......we were on the way out of the FA Cup and tried to stop it happening....replay because of it and we went on to Wembley, but the game finished.......

Heysel......the match went on......

Hillsborough......the match was played eventually.....

The underlying factor in all of those and more was DO NOT GIVE IN TO THEM AND THEIR VIOLENCE AND THREATS....if you do, you might as well stop football here and now!

The game has rightly gone ahead, Galatasaray have won 2-0....let them have the expense of their trip to Yorkshire in two weeks time, play that match and then, if they go through to the final, disqualify them and put Leeds into the final to play the Arse.....if Leeds win the home leg and go through, then ban the Turks from all Euro competitions anyway...

The one thing they should not do is sell tickets to the Turks to come over here otherwise there will be a bloodbath....not just with Leeds supporters, but with every head me dead group who are spoiling for a fight getting into them.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

There has been some really good discussion on here about the tragedy in Turkey. Without taking away from the nature of such a sorrowful event I'd like to ask a question relating to the Toons experiences this season in Europe.

Two away trips in Europe this season spring to mind. The first was the trip to Bulgaria to play CSKA Sofia, and the second was the trip to Rome to play AS Roma.

I recall that a couple of memebers from the Communicata BBS attended and reported on the trip to CSKA Sofia. They mentioned the atmosphere of the ground and the intimidation from the opposition fans. I also recall somewhat more vividly the reports on the trip to Roma, and the heavey presence of the police and the actions to contain the NUFC/english revelry.

My question is, to what extent could any trouble on behalf of the NUFC supporters be attributed to the local constabulary's actions to try and curtail any percieved threats of violence.

In that, if you were left well enough alone would anything have happened beyond rowdy sing and the usual brocken glass or three. However the polices actions, for all the good they hoped to achieve, actually acted as a spark to set off trouble.

Or does nothing untoward happen when the Toon army travel.

I'm trying to be antagonistic here, it's a genuine question.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

ermmm Tre with reference to the Roma game it was the local fasn who were causing the bother . Inside the ground there was a flag attached to our terrace section with ' YOUR TIME HAS COME' emblazoned on it ; however when Toon fans tried to stick Union Jacks around the same area they were pulled down by the Carbinieri . Similiarly they were allowed to stand rigt up next to the fence .. we were ket 10 yards from it with a line of police there . After the game when trying to leave the ground , we were locked in for 45 minutes and then told ( not asked ) to get on buses and ferried to the station . Before the game local police gathered any Geordie or person witha sniff of black and white on and took them to the ground . I think what im trying to say is that this was a very well policed and orgainised event .. the police in my eyes were heavy handed but fair , and really it was for wor protection . Which begs the question why the hell want that kind of behaviour learnt by the Turkish police ???? But as i have often said if the police know the English are there , they are more than happy to wade in . Reading the paper this morning made me alugh , 10,000 coppers at the match last night , or something equally ridiculous - horses and bolts spring to mind . Toon in Europe on my numerous experinces have been very well behaved , however dont forget there is still a few ( and only a few ) who are lurking following Newcastle . As we all know its those few who ruin it for the rest of us normal boisterous (!) supporters . Doesnt that make you laugh eh , the press keep describing the Leeds lads as boisterous . what the f is that all about exactly ?

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

Small point, but I wish the Turkish team had worn black armbands too. It would have shown at least some kind of solidarity on the pitch about what had gone on off it.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

Apparantly the Galatasaray coach said he would have rathered his team lose than have the two fans killed.

That said I agree with Galaxy re the armbands, but how would the Galatasaray supporters have taken to there players wearing armbands. And please recall softies words before stating if it were us we would have.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

Get a load of this cr*p

www.yahoo.com/m/sow/news/ap/20000406/ap-englishhooligans.html

sorry I can't do basic html.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

With all due respect Rik, I have indeed thought through this issue, very carefully. Please allow me to have my own opinion, even if I'm in a minority of one.

In relation to my suggestion that Leeds should have withdrawn fron the game, you ask "what kind of message would this send out to the Turks?" Well, it would send the message that we believe human life is more important than a game of football.

If, as you argue, that then provides other lunatics with a easy route for dictating their Clubs success in any particular fixture, I would simply argue that if that is truly what the game has degenerated to, then frankly it isn't worth the bother.

You provide other examples of games proceeding in the face of human tragedy, presumably as evidence of the appropriateness of that action. The continuation of the Hysel game, while the mayhem and loss of life actually was continuing 'off camera', was a grotesque error of judgement.

Your argument provides NO logical justification whatsoever for continuation of the fixtures, and the reality of these situations is that the real justification has been, and I guess always will be, commercial expediency, pure and simple.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

Sorry Rik, I've just realised that the latter part of my post was actually responding to points made by ITK in his post that was supporting your argument. Mia culpa!

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

Fair enough Clarkie....will you swicth the lights off as we all leave the ground for the last time after the wake of the game, or will I?

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

I must say Softie, your different cultures arguement does not work on me, it is too much like "look at the way she is dressed, she's just asking for it" as a rapists defence.

They were hosts for this match , the onus is for them to provide adequate protection for their visitors, if that consists of removing "offensive" fans before the outbreak of trouble, do it. At least they will be alive the next day.

English fans have a reputation and will be goaded wherever they travel, when it comes down to it; nobody but nobody wants their team to be drawn against Galatasaray, that speaks volumes about the place. To be quite honest, I would not even think about visiting Turkey after this, especially knowing that "armed violence" is a accepted part of life, regardless of how "ordinary" Turks behave.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

I dont condone what has happened Tony. Im trying to understand why it happened, and am not happy with the idea that it is all down to Johnny Foreigner. The allegory of women in short skirts asking for it is an interesting one. Its entirely taken from a Western perspective where we have decided that women have the right to wear what they like provided they cover their genitals and also their nipples in public places. However, nobody thinks it unreasonable to curtail that freedom to walk around wearing next to nothing when visiting an Islamic country, since the freedom of a Western woman to bare herself is considered secondary to the rights of the local inhabitants to not have somebody elses value system thrust on them. It isnt right by our way of thinking that a woman isnt safe to expose her body, but common sense tells us that rights dont protect you a damn unless they are enforced.

You talk about how the police out there let people down. Agree 100%. There was one of them filmed kicking one of the wounded. Why on Earth is he doing that? Perhaps you have to return to the wonderful image we have made for ourselves by rioting in Sweden, Lansdowne Road and Marseille, AFTER serving a European ban to show us the error of our ways. Is it not possible that they were expecting English fans to behave like animals? Do you think that arriving pissed at the airport with a huge Hello Hell! We are Leeds! banner and giving Nazi salutes was the best way to put their minds at rest? Was the trouble suffered by Chelsea only last December not a bit of an indication that this might be a time for a different code of behaviour?

Did you see the non-plussed Leeds fans explaining that they werent drunk because they were only in the fourth bar? I ask you again; is it advisable to go on a pub-crawl in Istanbul before a match against Galatassary? I think not. Its a tragedy because it was so unnecessary. You dont have to be a rocket scientist to work out that there was a strong likelihood of trouble in Istanbul, but typically, Yorkies have to indulge in their machismo bullsh*t and show that they arent scared of a few Turks. Idiots! They dont deserve to die, but they should have exercised a bit of common sense.

The rant against the Turks and wanting them banned from all competitions until they are civilized is hardly in keeping with the way we treat others. As Ive already mentioned, English fans have several times gone on the rampage since serving the Heysel ban; doesnt appear to have made us more responsible, does it? I notice that Germany are still involved in international competition and yet some of their fans kicked a French Gendarme to death at France98. The last time I looked both Gillingham and Fulham are in the football league, yet a fan was stabbed to death outside the ground at one of their games. Fiorentina were in the Champions League despite being banned from all European competitions the season before after a bomb was thrown at match officials during a game held at a neutral venue because of crowd trouble the season before that! Is it just because we can recognise ourselves in the Western European fans whilst Turks are somehow otherworldly and different? Theres another name for that.

In the same way that locking up a rapist keeps him away from women and therefore stops him offending, banning Galatasarays fans from matches will stop them killing anyone again. However, the rapist wont be cured of his opinions about women and the Galatasaray fans wont have become more civilized. The problem here is in the minds. These people need to be shown a different way to act. I dont think that getting beered up and leery is the different way we are looking for. You talk about people goading the English because of our reputation, but I think we have a responsibility to live down that reputation, not live it stupid hooligan fantasies which can get you killed.

I was challenged that I would feel differently if these were Newcastle fans that had been killed, and I can only say that in my heart of hearts I hope that Geordie fans would manage to go out and mingle with the locals in a more appropriate fashion. Saying that, those characters who have turned up at Wimbledon and Everton would probably also make the trip and ensure that it was dangerous for everyone. I dont know the answers, Im just trying to make sense of it all, but I think that a debate like this is both healthy and necessary to come to terms with events like these. I dont mean to insult anyone with the things I say  I realise that my style of writing can often be abrasive, and for this I can only apologise.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

ITK

If a wake for the game of football was the only way to avoid further real wakes of the kind that two very young children and their widowed mother will be attending in Leeds shortly, then yes Ken I will gladly switch the light out for you afterwards.

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

CLARKIE

I think we are talking at cross purposes here....you seem to be suggesting that I don't feel for the families of the two guys killed and that could not be further from the truth.

My biggest problem was the suggetion that game should have been postponed.....and with the greatest of respect to those two guys, I still can't see the point.

I said in my original posting that I sent my deepest sympathies to the family and friends of not only those two, but also to the other Leeds fans caught up in the fighting......and those sympathies still stand.

My concern was if the game was postponed, then the thugs and idiots have won, and all of us right minded decent thinking fan have lost a great game......I can just hear some of those head-me-deads, not just abroad, but in this country as well...... "oh dear, we have been drawn against XYZ.....we will struggle against them, best we try and get the game stopped, then when they are too frightened to come and play the game here, we can claim the tie by default" - alright, the language may be a bit stronger than that, but the essence remains the same.

Galatasary have already started by saying that they feel intimidated and that Leeds United can't guarantee the safety of their fans for the return leg, so they want the match played on a neutral ground......

I do feel very sorry for the loss of those two lads, and a lot angry at the way in which it happened...remember, the Galatasary supporters were threatening Leeds supports on the internet a week or so ago, and they have tried to intimidate every team that has gone there, but I still maintain that we should not bow down to the thugs......otherwise the game IS dead

-- Anonymous, April 07, 2000

ITK,

I think our views are irreconcilable on this particular issue Ken, so probably best just to leave it.

All I'm really saying is that if I had been in Peter Ridsdale's I would have pulled the club out of the fixture, and sod the consequences. I could not have contemplated the team taking the field with two fans lying in a refrigerated mortuary and the team's fans barricaded in their hotels.

I cannot personally accept that a football game takes precedence over showing due respect for the loss of human life.

-- Anonymous, April 08, 2000

Softie. It's not just the western "value system" that condemns behaviour like that. I would like to think that English 'football' has came a long wall since Heysel. It was not too long ago that football violence was almost accepted as a part of the game, I know somebody who stopped going to the games because of the lack of fighting, sad but true. I know that the Leeds fans are not all saints and Nazi salutes are out of order but at the game Galatasaray fans were filmed making a cut throat gesture.
I always drink too much at away games, that is an integral part of the day for me, I don't look for or cause trouble but, when I'm tanked up, would find it difficult to standby and watch my mates take a beating and I would expect no less from my friends. To suggest that a European away game should be watched without going for a drink would be scoffed at in my circles and if this fixture attracts those limitations then surely there should be something done to make the place more foreigner friendly. Although I can see the slant your directing us to I cannot accept that because knives are a way of life in Turkey they should be given dispensation, murder is murder anywhere in the world and I hope that this affects their travel industry because it may bring their culture up to speed with the rest of the world.

-- Anonymous, April 08, 2000

Were in denial over our hooligans ... so says Chief Superintendent Eddie Curtis, Liaison Officer for Euro 2000 in an article in the Mail on Sunday yesterday in the context of this particular debate.

"Following every incident abroad we as a nation seem to go into denial. The stabbings in Turkey were a terrible tragedy and while I couldnt comment on the specifics of that case, it has to be accepted that a minority are out to cause trouble abroad. This is not just boisterous behavior. This minority is horrible and behaves in a way which makes and my colleagues ashamed to be English."

"I cant think of a single time when Ive worked abroad and there hasnt been an incident caused by this minority, whether in Hungary, Bulgaria, Marseille at the 98 WC, or elsewhere. They create real danger for the majority of fans, some of who unfortunately get roped into the trouble, and yet people always seem to defend these troublemakers."

"We should stop kidding ourselves, get hold of the problem, and do something positive. That means tougher and more uniform anti-hooligan legislation throughout Europe. If you keep making excuses for the hooligan minority they think it is acceptable to misbehave".

"Peter Ridsdale, the Leeds FC Chairman added "Its a fact that in general we act abroad as if were still in the UK. We have to understand that there are cultural differences. What would appear to be normal behavior for fans attending games here may not be considered normal in foreign countries. English fans have to appreciate that."

-- Anonymous, April 10, 2000