Most everyone can answer the question: "Which MLB team has won the most pennants?" The answer is the Yankees. But how many know which team is in second place?

-- Peter Errington (petere@ricochet.net), April 04, 2000

Answers

Peter:

Dunno which but my guess is either the Dodgers or the A's. Sure isn't the Indians, darn it.

-- Jim Cooke (JJCooke@yahoo.com), April 04, 2000.

The Giants?

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 04, 2000.

it's all in ...da CARDS...!!!

-- forrest gump (forrest@gump.com), April 04, 2000.

I believe forrest is correct, though I haven't looked it up in my copy of Total Baseball or The Baseball Encyclopedia.

Peter, from your post's title, I thought we'd be called upon to provide a coherent explanation of the Infield Fly Rule or something.

-- David L (bumpkin@dnet.net), April 04, 2000.

>> But how many know which team is in second place? <<

12,344 people know which team is in second place. How do you like them apples?

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), April 04, 2000.

Brian, your answer is most remarkable. In fact, I would say that it makes the most outlandish of Hawk's claims look downright sober.

-- David L (bumpkin@dnet.net), April 04, 2000.

Brian, your claim that many people, numbering in the thousands, know the answer to my question is just about the most horrendous bullshit that I have ever seen on any forum.

In fact the number of such true students of the game is very small. But I am happy that forrest and David L. are among this small number.

-- Peter Errington (petere@ricochet.net), April 04, 2000.

Hey Peter:

Please explain a little further how knowing the answer to a trivia question qualifies one as a student of the game, and how not knowing the answer disqualifies one as a student of the game.

Thank you.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 04, 2000.

>> Brian, your claim that many people, numbering in the thousands, know the answer to my question is just about the most horrendous bullshit that I have ever seen on any forum. In fact the number of such true students of the game is very small. But I am happy that forrest and David L. are among this small number. <<

So let's see. Of the number of people who clicked on this thread wihtin less than 24 hours, 2 knew the answer. So did you (Peter E.). That makes a total of 3.

So, let's play a game, Peter! Let us assume something ridiculous. Let's say 10,000 people read this thread and 2 came up with the right ansswer. Just for a fudge factor, let's say this forum is 3 times as knowledgable as the general population of the USA. (Well, aren't we?)

We know 3 forum participants knew the correct answer, so using our rather flattering assumptions that we are 3 times better than everyone else (are you with me Peter?), then only 1 in 10,000 of the general population would know the answer.

There are 270,000,000 people in the USA alone. Let's throw out all the children under the age of 12. I don't know how many there are, so let's say 50 million, just to be sort of safe. That leaves 220 million above the age of 12.

So 1 in 10,000 of 220 million would amount to 22,000 people in the USA. That's about twice as many as I postulated. And that doesn't even account for all the baseball fans in Latin America! Or Japan.

Or, let's approach it another way. How many living Americans have played professional baseball (minor or major leagues) for more than 2 years of their lives? How many have played on a Division 1 NCAA college baseball team in thier lives? Do you think maybe 1% of them could answer that question?

How many copies of _The Baseball Encyclopedia_ are sold in any one year, for crying out loud?

So, Peter, let me tell you as sweetly as I can: you have an overblown sense of your own abilities as a basball trivialist.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), April 04, 2000.

There is nothing more beautiful in all of sport than a well-turned double play. Poetry in motion I tell ya. Score it 6-4-3.

Uh... What was the question again?

-- CD (costavike@hotmail.com), April 04, 2000.

Aw CD, don't get all sentimental on us. (sniff)

Between this and the LL/Mr. Polly threads, I can't tell if this forum is Talking Baseball 2000 or The Betrothed 2000.

-- David L (bumpkin@dnet.net), April 04, 2000.

Go Braves.

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), April 04, 2000.

Let's go mets. Knock the braves off their Rocker.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think.metspennant2000), April 04, 2000.

Tracing the Dodgers beginnings as the Brooklyn Bridegrooms in the late 1800's through today as the Los Angeles Dodgers, the franchise has won 21 division championships, second to the Yankees 36.

However, knowing information about pennants, championships, home runs, etc. is just trivia and has little to do with being a student of the game of baseball.

True students of the game enjoy the nuances of righty/lefty matchups, strategies such as hit-and-runs, shifts, substitutions and happenings on the field rather than mere trivia.

-- CJS (cjs@noemail.com), April 05, 2000.

As a former Brooklynite (now transplanted to LV), gotta go with Future Shock on this one -- LET'S GO METS!!!

BTW, I was at that 5-hour, 46-minute, 15+ inning game last year. From where we were sitting, you couldn't tell if that last hit was over the fence or not (and it was raining). But all you had to do was listen to the first base side of the field to know. Couldn't talk for two days after. One of the best games I've ever seen.

P.S. LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!! (Really, now; if your given name is "Lawrence" and you had a choice between "Chipper" and "Larry" as an adult, and you *choose* "Chipper", you can't possibly expect ANYONE to give you any kind of respect. Puhleeze. [g])

P.S.S. Also gotta go with CJS on this one -- just because one knows who's won how many championships does not make one a student of the game. Hell, I could spout those stats when I was 8. Took me until my teens to figure out and understand the strategies and the nuances however. That's where the beauty of the game lies. Gave me an appreciation I never would have had otherwise. (Though in all honesty, hockey is still my Number One sport. Go figure.)

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), April 05, 2000.

Peter:

There was a time when I really lived it. Played it up through semi-paid baseball [you may have a different name for this]. I once hit 0.335 with 14 HR. Didn't have the talent to play the real game. I started to ignore it after the strike. I have been getting better at ignoring it over time.

Best wishes,,,

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), April 05, 2000.

By-the-way Jim:

My mother was a great Indians fan. I remember having to sit on hot days, in a non-air conditioned house, listening to the Indians. Ray Boone, Luke Easter, Al Rosen, Bob Feller, Bob Lemon, etc. Is that before your time. I have [somewhere, a Feller autographed ball].

Best wishes,,,,

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), April 05, 2000.

I think that Peter and some of his critics are both right. A true baseball fan will have a keen appreciation of strategy as it unfolds during a game, and also a rather detailed knowledge of baseball history.

For those of you who are miffed because they didn't know the answer to Peter's rather important question, here are a few more. Getting any of them right will make you feel better.

1. The greatest left-handed batter and the greatest right-handed batter in the game's history. (We do not count the era of the Brooklyn Bridegrooms, for God's sake.)

2. Elvis's favorite team.

3. This one's for you, CJS - how did the Dodgers get their name.

Just remember, those who don't know history are condemned to repeat it.

-- Fan (stats@are.us), April 05, 2000.

Patricia:

Everything you said-especially about the hockey part-I just love the speed of the game, the skill, etc..loved it since I was 5(over 30 years). I hope I am not crying in my milk again with the Devils this year).

Fan:

Please define "greatest"-batting average? Home Runs? Total bases? hits? Thanks

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 05, 2000.

Ah, FutureShock, this is where we must part company. As a life-long New Yawker (complete with Brooklyn accent at the appropriate moments [g]), I have been a die-hard Rangers' fan since.....well, since I can remember being allowed to say the word *puck* (IOW, slightly longer than you have been a fan of the game).

But at least you have great taste in baseball teams :-)

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), April 06, 2000.

FutureShock: "Greatest Hitter" in my question is a composite of average, power, etc. He is the first person you'd pick for your team, with no hesitation.

-- Fan (stats@are.us), April 06, 2000.

Fan-I will get back to you tomorrow, but one of my answers is Ted Williams.

-- FutureShock (Gray@matter.think), April 06, 2000.

OK, Fan, you want history, I'll give you history:

Who was Dr. Strangeglove? What was his team and position?

What kind of a pitch is a "Linda Ronstadt"?

-- Peter Errington (petere@ricochet.net), April 06, 2000.

Dr. Strangeglove was Dick Stuart. He played first base for the Pittsburgh Pirates. An excellent example of "good hit, no field".

As far as a Linda Ronstadt pitch, I have to take a guess here. When we play golf, and we outdrive one another, we often say, "Blue Bayou", as in I blew by your drive. My guess is that a Linda Ronstadt pitch is a fastball that that a batter whiffs miserably on.

Re: Hockey

I am a long suffering Chicago Blackhawks fan. No championships since 1961, and I wasn't even born then to see it.

-- CJS (cjs@noemail.com), April 06, 2000.

Way to go, CJS. Right on both questions. When a batter strikes out on a fastball, and has trudged back to the dugout, the Ronstadt reference is his team-mates' tactful way of letting him know that the ball "blew by you".

-- Peter Errington (petere@ricochet.net), April 06, 2000.

Greatest hitter? How about hitter whom the opposition would least like to face. My nomination for the latter is Ted Kluszewski, who in each of three seasons had 40 or more homers, hit well over .300 and had fewer strikeouts than homers. Sheer terror.

-- David L (bumpkin@dnet.net), April 06, 2000.

The Rangers could use a thread all of their own, Patrica. I can't even imagine what they're going to do now. I had such high hopes for this season. IMHO,..Messiers departure ended an era there, and he placed some sort of Canuck curse on us. Can anything save that team? I was glad to see Smith and Muckler sent packing..I wonder if Bill Parcells is available :-)

-- kritter (kritter@adelphia.net), April 06, 2000.

SURE...just ignore the really IMPORTANT thread about how ads for shoes are spreading subliminal messages about bestiality. NONE of you recognize the subliminal messages in baseball? Why are these guys dressed in such tight-fitting garments when looser garments would provide more comfort? Why are they permitted to clutch those cups on their crotches before an audience of millions? What kind of example are they setting for our children with their constant spitting? SURE...just grab a bat and strike out at the next thing coming your way...nothing subliminal in THAT.

------------end of Dr. Laura's appraisal of baseball ---------------

Personally, I'd watch the games on TV if the volume were off or if they hired announcers that didn't have such annoying voices. But, alas, I can only enjoy the game at the field itself, where the fan in the row behind me feels free to pour his beer on my head when HIS team wins.

And now......back to serious baseball/hockey talk.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 06, 2000.

David L:

Greatest hitter? How about hitter whom the opposition would least like to face. My nomination for the latter is Ted Kluszewski, who in each of three seasons had 40 or more homers, hit well over .300 and had fewer strikeouts than homers. Sheer terror.

I remember seeing Ted play. After all of these years, I wouldn't have attempted to spell his name. You are a brave one.

Best hitter, Who Knows? Statistics don't tell everything. Perhaps Banks. I didn't get to see everyone. Best players? Two best that I saw were the young Mays and the young Clemente.

Best wishes,,,,

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), April 06, 2000.

I've decided to give you the answers to my questions, since it's clear you are getting nowhere:

LHB: Ruth of course

RHB: Rogers Hornsby

Elvis's favorite team was the Cardinals (source: The Sporting News)

The old Brooklyn team was known as the Trolley Dodgers (source: college room-mate from Brooklyn)

-- Fan (stats@are.us), April 06, 2000.

Fan:

Unlike you, I am not old enough to remember seeing Hornsby or Ruth. Best pure hitters that I saw were Banks and Gwynn [not sure of the spelling]. Best players were Clemente and Mays. I am not sure if statistics support this. I do remember Dr. Strangeglove making the play of the century.

Best wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), April 06, 2000.

Hello Z,
By "play of the century," do you mean the finest fielding play you have personally witnessed. 8^) Could you describe it for us.

-- David L (bumpkin@dnet.net), April 06, 2000.

I was born a die-hard Yankee fan. We never have to remember who finished second.

Ruth and Gehrig were the best 3-4 combo ever.

Ah, baseball in the spring. It's great to be alive!

From www.totalbaseball.com

ALL-TIME LEADERS: BATTING AVERAGE (LIFETIME)

1 TY COBB .366 2 ROGERS HORNSBY .358 3 JOE JACKSON .356 4 ED DELAHANTY .346 5 TRIS SPEAKER .345 6 TED WILLIAMS .344 7 BILLY HAMILTON .344 8 DAN BROUTHERS .342 9 BABE RUTH .342 10 HARRY HEILMANN .342 11 PETE BROWNING .341 12 WILLIE KEELER .341 13 BILL TERRY .341 14 GEORGE SISLER .340 15 LOU GEHRIG .340 16 JESSE BURKETT .338 17 NAP LAJOIE .338 18 TONY GWYNN .337 19 RIGGS STEPHENSON .336 20 AL SIMMONS .334 21 JOHN MCGRAW .334 22 PAUL WANER .333 23 EDDIE COLLINS .333 24 WADE BOGGS .333 25 MIKE DONLIN .333 26 STAN MUSIAL .331 27 SAM THOMPSON .331 28 HEINIE MANUSH .330 29 CAP ANSON .329 30 ROD CAREW .328 31 HONUS WAGNER .327 32 TIP O'NEILL .326 33 BOB FOTHERGILL .325 34 JIMMIE FOXX .325 35 EARLE COMBS .325 36 JOE DIMAGGIO .325 37 BABE HERMAN .324 38 HUGH DUFFY .324 39 JOE MEDWICK .324 40 EDD ROUSH .323 41 SAM RICE .322 42 ROSS YOUNGS .322 43 KIKI CUYLER .321 44 CHARLIE GEHRINGER .320 45 CHUCK KLEIN .320 46 PIE TRAYNOR .320 47 MICKEY COCHRANE .320 48 KEN WILLIAMS .319 49 KIRBY PUCKETT .318 50 EARL AVERILL .318 51 ARKY VAUGHAN .318 52 ROBERTO CLEMENTE .317 53 CHICK HAFEY .317 54 JOE KELLEY .317 55 ZACK WHEAT .317 56 ROGER CONNOR .317 57 LLOYD WANER .316 58 FRANKIE FRISCH .316 59 GOOSE GOSLIN .316 60 GEORGE VAN HALTREN .316 61 BIBB FALK .314 62 CECIL TRAVIS .314 63 HANK GREENBERG .313 64 JACK FOURNIER .313 65 ELMER FLICK .313 66 BILL DICKEY .313 67 DALE MITCHELL .312 68 JOHNNY MIZE .312 69 JOE SEWELL .312 70 FRED CLARKE .312 71 BARNEY MCCOSKY .312 72 HUGHIE JENNINGS .311 73 FREDDY LINDSTROM .311 74 BING MILLER .311 75 JACKIE ROBINSON .311 76 BABY DOLL JACOBSON .311 77 TAFFY WRIGHT .311 78 RIP RADCLIFF .311 79 GINGER BEAUMONT .311 80 MIKE TIERNAN .311 81 DENNY LYONS .310 82 ELMER SMITH .310 83 LUKE APPLING .310 84 IRISH MEUSEL .310 85 BOBBY VEACH .310 86 JIM O'ROURKE .310 87 JIM BOTTOMLEY .310 88 JOHN STONE .310 89 SAM CRAWFORD .309 90 BOB MEUSEL .309 91 MARK GRACE .309 92 JACK TOBIN .309 93 SPUD DAVIS .308 94 RICHIE ASHBURN .308 95 PAUL MOLITOR .308 96 KING KELLY .308 97 JAKE BECKLEY .308 98 STUFFY MCINNIS .307 99 DON MATTINGLY .307 100 JOE VOSMIK .307

-- Outta beer (East of the smokestack@usa.here), April 07, 2000.

ALL-TIME LEADERS: BATTING AVERAGE (LIFETIME) 1 TY COBB 0.366 2 ROGERS HORNSBY 0.358 3 JOE JACKSON 0.356 4 ED DELAHANTY 0.346 5 TRIS SPEAKER 0.345 6 TED WILLIAMS 0.344 7 BILLY HAMILTON 0.344 8 DAN BROUTHERS 0.342 9 BABE RUTH 0.342 10 HARRY HEILMANN 0.342 11 PETE BROWNING 0.341 12 WILLIE KEELER 0.341 13 BILL TERRY 0.341 14 GEORGE SISLER 0.34 15 LOU GEHRIG 0.34 16 JESSE BURKETT 0.338 17 NAP LAJOIE 0.338 18 TONY GWYNN 0.337 19 RIGGS STEPHENSON 0.336 20 AL SIMMONS 0.334 21 JOHN MCGRAW 0.334 22 PAUL WANER 0.333 23 EDDIE COLLINS 0.333 24 WADE BOGGS 0.333 25 MIKE DONLIN 0.333 26 STAN MUSIAL 0.331 27 SAM THOMPSON 0.331 28 HEINIE MANUSH 0.33 29 CAP ANSON 0.329 30 ROD CAREW 0.328 31 HONUS WAGNER 0.327 32 TIP O'NEILL 0.326 33 BOB FOTHERGILL 0.325 34 JIMMIE FOXX 0.325 35 EARLE COMBS 0.325 36 JOE DIMAGGIO 0.325 37 BABE HERMAN 0.324 38 HUGH DUFFY 0.324 39 JOE MEDWICK 0.324 40 EDD ROUSH 0.323 41 SAM RICE 0.322 42 ROSS YOUNGS 0.322 43 KIKI CUYLER 0.321 44 CHARLIE GEHRINGER 0.32 45 CHUCK KLEIN 0.32 46 PIE TRAYNOR 0.32 47 MICKEY COCHRANE 0.32 48 KEN WILLIAMS 0.319 49 KIRBY PUCKETT 0.318 50 EARL AVERILL 0.318 51 ARKY VAUGHAN 0.318 52 ROBERTO CLEMENTE 0.317 53 CHICK HAFEY 0.317 54 JOE KELLEY 0.317 55 ZACK WHEAT 0.317 56 ROGER CONNOR 0.317 57 LLOYD WANER 0.316 58 FRANKIE FRISCH 0.316 59 GOOSE GOSLIN 0.316 60 GEORGE VAN HALTREN 0.316 61 BIBB FALK 0.314 62 CECIL TRAVIS 0.314 63 HANK GREENBERG 0.313 64 JACK FOURNIER 0.313 65 ELMER FLICK 0.313 66 BILL DICKEY 0.313 67 DALE MITCHELL 0.312 68 JOHNNY MIZE 0.312 69 JOE SEWELL 0.312 70 FRED CLARKE 0.312 71 BARNEY MCCOSKY 0.312 72 HUGHIE JENNINGS 0.311 73 FREDDY LINDSTROM 0.311 74 BING MILLER 0.311 75 JACKIE ROBINSON 0.311 76 BABY DOLL JACOBSON 0.311 77 TAFFY WRIGHT 0.311 78 RIP RADCLIFF 0.311 79 GINGER BEAUMONT 0.311 80 MIKE TIERNAN 0.311 81 DENNY LYONS 0.31 82 ELMER SMITH 0.31 83 LUKE APPLING 0.31 84 IRISH MEUSEL 0.31 85 BOBBY VEACH 0.31 86 JIM O'ROURKE 0.31 87 JIM BOTTOMLEY 0.31 88 JOHN STONE 0.31 89 SAM CRAWFORD 0.309 90 BOB MEUSEL 0.309 91 MARK GRACE 0.309 92 JACK TOBIN 0.309 93 SPUD DAVIS 0.308 94 RICHIE ASHBURN 0.308 95 PAUL MOLITOR 0.308 96 KING KELLY 0.308 97 JAKE BECKLEY 0.308 98 STUFFY MCINNIS 0.307 99 DON MATTINGLY 0.307 100 JOE VOSMIK 0.307

-- Outta beer (East of the smokestack@usa.here), April 07, 2000.

Damnit! How do you format this stuff?

Sorry folks.

I'm not one to cry over spilt milk. ....beer maybe.

-- Outta beer (East of the smokestack@usa.here), April 07, 2000.

To Outta Beer:

As a Yankee fan, chew on this: The Cards have scored 30 runs in their first 3 games. Against real good pitching too. Will the 2000 Cardinals make people forget the 1927 Yankees?

-- Peter Errington (petere@ricochet.net), April 07, 2000.

Peter,

Impressive, but 3 games does not a season make. Ask again at the end of October, when the Fall Classic is over and the bats are silent and stored away for the cold long winter ahead. Hope Springs eternal. Time will tell if it's in the Cards.

The Yanks are still the team to beat.

-- Outta beer (East of the smoke stack@usa.here), April 07, 2000.