Let's talk about sex, baybee! What do you love about it? Does it make you feel guilty? Does it turn you on? Would you have it in a box? Would you have it with a fox (ew!)?

No flames please, we are enlightened here, with open minds.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2000

Answers

well, you asked :) I agree, pre-marital sex is wrong. capital W. It seems that there is some idea that if you say this you are saying sex is bad. nobody ever told me that it was bad somehow, just that sex is something that takes place within a marriage, otherwise isn't it just for selfish reasons? I think planned parenthood and public schools have normalized sex to such a degree that it can be easy to fall into thinking that its your right, or that its ok. I still believe you should wait. Wait until someone loves you enough to marry you. loves you enough to commit to a lifetime... to a family. only then do you have the foundation of a life together, of trust and friendship that really allows sex to be all that it should be.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2000

Sex is normal and OK. And there's nothing wrong with public schools.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2000

Public schools, eh? Now *there*'s a controversy..... ;)

But, yeah, anyways, back to sex. Personally, I enjoy it, and I choose to have sex before marriage, but I can respect the opinions of those that feel differently. I'm lucky right now to be in the situation where I'm in love with my partner -- and it's mutual -- and I'm secure enough to handle both contraception and the unlikely chance that it might not work. There have been other times in my life where I wasn't so secure, and in those situations, sex might very well have been the worst thing for the relationship...not because sex is a bad thing in and of itself, but because frankly, it's not enough to hold a "working" relationship together (that said, I've also had a terrific friend/fuckbuddy relationship with a wonderful guy...but neither of us *wanted* anything more than movie-watching and sex, so it worked out. NOT RECOMMENDED if one of you wants a deep and meaningful relationship...yes, I've been there, too *wink*).

I'm also lucky in that all of my friends are very open about their sexuality/sensuality, and it's no big deal and no "shocker." One of my good friends runs a bondage/fetish club, and we all go up there to dress up in PVC and dance to industrial music and watch people get tied up and spanked. It's an incredible turn-on, both sexually and mentally, because it forces me to say, "OK, here's something that I'd like, and, oh my! that over there, that just crosses my boundaries." It makes me decide what my boundaries are, and what I'm comfortable with. That's really important to me, for sex, because then I can just let myself go "in the moment" and not worry that I might cross some line inadvertantly that I'll be uncomfortable later. I'll have already thought about it, and if it looks like a situation is going somewhere I won't like, I can recognize that.

For me, sex isn't something that's really confined to the bedroom (and I don't mean, "I do it in the living room, too!" Though I do.). It includes things like going to bondage clubs and Lords of Acid concerts and Good Vibrations. It's sitting around with all of my friends and watching the absolutely ridiculous soft porn that one of my friends always seems to end up with. It's modelling for Girlfriends Magazine, even though I'm not personally a lesbian. It's talking with a friend about his girlfriend and their polyamorous relationship. It's piercing myself and dyeing my hair. It's buying books by everyone from Pat Califia to Andrea Dworkin ("Intercourse" is an amazing book, if for no other reason that I don't agree with a single thing in it), from Anais Nin to Colette to the Marquis de Sade. It's posting to this forum.

So there's my buck and a half on this topic. :)

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2000

That's actually really true that if you have a bad relationship to start with, sex is only going to make it worse. I don't know if this is more true for girls than for guys, but it seems to me that I've known quite a few women who were in relationships where they had WAY more emotional involvement than the guy did, and having sex just made the problem worse. It made them feel like there was this level of intimacy in the relationship, which I guess would make you feel better about the fact that the guy wasn't particularly emotionally involved outside the bedroom, and it just made it a lot harder to break up and get out of a crappy situation.

As for me, I've had exactly two sexual partners. Two! Count 'em, one, two. Number one was probably the worst thing I've ever done. Having sex with him was a BIG mistake. There wasn't much physical attraction between us, he wasn't interested in a relationship, I pretended *I* wasn't interested in a relationship, and I wound up very hurt and bruised by the whole thing.

So yeah, I guess I'm just saying that if you're going to have sex, you should really make sure that it's for the right reasons.

Oh, and the "fuck buddy" thing, I've heard of very few people who were able to make it work out on any kind of long-term basis, just because of what Carolyn said, which is that it really sucks when one partner just wants a "fuck buddy" and the other one wants a serious partner. Oops.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2000

An analogy, if I may:

I think sex in general is a bit like sharing a car. Sometimes you trust someone enough to let them borrow your car without a second thought, sometimes you only feel comfortable lending that car for a particular errand.

Naturally, it is safer to share a car with someone with which one has legal ties. Of course, this would include parents or siblings on some level, and so my analogy breaks into small, incestuous pieces.

Let me try again. Consider this analogy:

Sex is like donating an organ. Crap, nevermind... I'm not even going to touch that one, come to think of it.

Sex is like leaving the door open when you pee?

Sex is like Tai Kwan Do?

What is needed here is field work. Lots and lots of field work.

- JMD

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2000

I've never had a fuckbuddy. Not to say it's an entirely bad concept. Funnily (is that a word!?) enough, one of my friends recently married her one time fuckbuddy. Guess things progressed. I would agree, however, that sex should be within a committed relationship (whatever committed means to you), with some maturity involved. I've never had sex with someone I wasn't committed to on some level, so I can't really speak from personal experience, except to say I probably would not do that.. but that's just how I am, not any morals I enforce on the world at large. Sex to me is communication, or a culmination, maybe, of good communication. And it's just not 'the act'.. it's treating each other with respect, and love.. and the whole mental/physical/spiritual thing couples share. ideally, sure.. a marriage would be involved. but i don't think you need that, and i don't think it's a 'sin'.. or if i do think it's a sin, i don't think it's a very BIG sin.. at least not one *I* am feeling convicted of. *cough*. to close, let me say this: this forum so far has been an excellent read.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2000

of course sex is normal and ok. normal in a marriage. outside of marriage I dont see the point. As for public schools, I won't be sending my kid to one.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2000

There's nothing wrong with public schools? You *must* be kidding, Jan. The US isn't even in the top 10 in academics; how sad is that? My public schooling was a nightmare.

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2000

i don't have much to say here, because i tend to get really upset and frustrated whenever i get myself into internet-based discussions about sex.

all i have to say is that i make a conscious effort NOT to use the words "sex" and "should" in the same sentence.

incredibly obvious exception #1: sex SHOULD be consensual, always.

incredibly obvious exception #2: sex SHOULD never occur without serious discussion of STD prevention and, if applicable, contraception.

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2000

oh, poopy, i lied. i do have something else to say (carolyn's mention of good vibrations reminded me). but, as usual, someone else has already said it much better than i could. i just got a big fat package of zines from pander yesterday, one of them being the fabulous mimi's slander #7. included is an interesting critique of "sex radical rhetoric." it exists in web form in several pieces (1, 2) on mimi's website.

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2000

of course sex is normal and ok. normal in a marriage. outside of marriage I dont see the point.

To me, the point of "normal" sex (that is, "normal" for me. I'm not insinuating that I'm speaking for everyone) is the same whether a couple is married or not. I see it as not only an expression of love, fidelity, and committment, but also as playful and exciting and fun. My partner and I are mutually attracted to each other, intellectually, spiritually, and physically. Just as we find enjoyment in having a spirited debate, a serious discussion, or a motorcycle ride together, we also enjoy sex together. That's the point, for me. I love the fact that I can look at my partner, and think "wow, he's really smart," and "wow, he's really funny," and "wow, he's really sexy" all at the same time. With the caveat that I'm not and never have been married, I can say that that's what I expect the point of sex within marriage to be as well. Granted, I'm not planning on having children, so I can see where procreation would also be the point of sex for other couples.

I realize that no one asked me for my opinion of the "point of sex outside of marriage," but since when has that stopped me before? :D

As far as public schooling leading to the demoralizing of sex... while I admit that it was through school that I learned of the "lovemaking" aspects of sex (as opposed to the health class "tab a, slot b" aspects), I'd be surprised to hear that that's limited to just public schools. According to my roommate (who went to Catholic private school up through college), there's still a heavy dosage of juvenile sex jokes and discourse in the religious private schools. It's my personal opinion that you can't hide your kids away from the "evils" of the world, and the best that you can do is to raise children that are socially conscious. I believe that if you raise your kids to recognize the various options open to them (both "good" and "bad") and instill in them morals that include tolerance and forgiveness, then they will make the right decisions. It really has very little to do with public vs. private vs. home-schooled education, in my not-so-humble opinion.

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2000

Well, my Mom went to a private Catholic school for her entire education, and she had me out of wedlock at the age of 19. (Please refrain from ugly commentary on the moral character of my mother, thanks. She did raise us to be good people, after all.)

That's a specific example, though, and I don't want to draw any generalizations from it. I've said my piece, which is that I think sex before marriage is perfectly OK under the proper circumstances (love, trust, commitment, all that stuff Carolyn said, etc.). Some people disagree, and that's OK too. Not everybody has to share an opinion.

Incidentally, I feel that I should point out that if you happen to be gay, it is actually impossible for you to have any sex BUT premarital in this country, legally speaking. Of course, some people might say that's a good thing, but I disagree with those people as well.

Also, I started a new forum topic about public schooling, just so we don't stray too far off-topic in this one. http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002u RV

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2000

OK - first of all, it is possible to go to private school that is not Catholic. I agree, most of the friends I have that went to Catholic school did get knocked up. Common phrase around this town when I was in high school was, "Wanna be a dad? Date a girl from St. Mary's!" OK, done with that.

Regarding sex: my mother never told me to wait until marriage. She told me to wait for the right person, and not to have sex unless I was ready to pay the consequences (namely pregnancy). And always, ALWAYS protect myself. She informed me that if I got pregnant, I could stay in their house until the baby was born, but that she would NOT take care of it, and she would strongly recommend adoption, otherwise once the baby was born, I was out.

THAT being said, I have to say that even with my mom's permission to have sex, I have had only one sex partner in my life, and I married him. I was on the Pill at age 16 due to medical reasons, and we started having sex when I was 17. We eventually got married, and now we're having a much-wanted baby.

This is why we, as parents, will probably be like my mother. Lots of education on the consequences, but ultimately, we can't stop our kid from having sex, and neither could my mother stop me. FYI, my mom said the exact same thing to my younger brother, and he's a total jock at school, very cute and popular with the ladies -- and he's a virgin.

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2000

That's a really good point about being prepared to deal with the consequences of sex. Because we all know that no matter how careful you are, there's always the potential for accidents. Maybe you forget a pill, or the pill is from a bad batch, or the condom breaks.

That's actually one of the reasons I seriously regret the sexual relationship I had with my ex in college. I was NOT prepared to deal with the possible consequences. I did NOT want to have his kids, and I most certainly did not want to be pregnant in college.

Now, although I don't want a baby right now, I'm prepared to deal with the possibility. I informed Keith a while back that if I ever become accidentally pregnant, abortion is NOT, repeat NOT, an option, and he agreed to support me in that decision. I don't actually know what his opinion is on that topic. It's not really something I wanted to have a discussion about. And at this point in my life, I don't think adoption need be an issue either. We're not totally financially ready to have a baby, but we could certainly support one if it happened.

I guess I'm also keeping my Mom in mind. As I mentioned before, she had me at the age of 18 (maybe 19, not sure) and didn't have a career and hadn't finished college. Some of her relatives counseled her to give the baby up for adoption, but she hung on and kept me, and raised me as best she could, and for that I'm forever grateful. I just wouldn't feel right about giving my own child up for adoption, in light of what my Mom went through to keep me.

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2000

Some of her relatives counseled her to give the baby up for adoption, but she hung on and kept me, and raised me as best she could, and for that I'm forever grateful. I just wouldn't feel right about giving my own child up for adoption, in light of what my Mom went through to keep me.

On the flip side, my mother *did* give me up for adoption, and I'm grateful to her for that as well. I think it took a lot of guts for my mom to look at her situation (she became pregnant with me while in college, I think she was 20) and decide that although she wanted to stick out the pregnancy, she wasn't capable at that point in her life of giving me the life that she wanted me to have. *shrug* There's no way I could be that mature about it even now, and I'm older than she was.

Just an addendum; I think Jan's mom kicks ass too. :D So there!

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2000

Having had *lots* and *lots* of premarital sex, and tons more inside marriage... the married sex, in my humble opinion is way better. The other sex, was well, just sex... (remind me to tell you how i had a baby at 17... and again at 20 and 22) ANYway... I think sex is normal and fun, and within the confines of a commited relationship is perfect and beautiful (and occasionally funny- looking). The thing wherein things go astray, in my huble opinion, is where (usually) men address it as some kind of "need", as in "I can't help it!"

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Naturally, premarital sex can be damaging when it's badly planned and shoddily prepared for and naively had. But having experience can protect you, too. When you've swum around in the shallow end for a while, going off the diving board isn't such a shock.

It's all about WHY you have sex. If you do it because you want to, because you think you're ready and you're willing to protect yourself and you've actually thought of what you would do if something went wrong, then that's great. But not if you do it because your self esteem sucks and you're looking for acceptance and think you can find love in mindless fucking.

I think I've become a better judge of character in part because I'm acquainted with men and sex. I don't fall for the same ploys some of my inexperienced friends do. They go out with these asshole bar guys and get hurt and wonder what went wrong and they just really don't understand the male psyche at all.

Plus I can really appreciate my current wonderful monogamous relationship. A while back, I probably would've screwed up a good thing, or mistook an unhealthy relationship for a good thing. I can't guarantee that any relationship will work, but I can say I'm better prepared and better informed because of my experience.

Oh yeah, and about public schools... Did the schools normalize sexual behavior for the students, or were they forced to normalize it because of the students' behavior? I'd lean towards the latter...

Sex made my college years exciting. It made me responsible and independent. It made me happy.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Two more points:

First, if any man had ever tried that "but baby, I NEED it" line on me, I think I would have laughed him out of the bedroom. I have no compunction about laughing men out of the bedroom when they've done something particularly hilarious. Just ask my ex.

Second, I think that Melissa is dead on in saying that it's all about WHY you have sex. Whether it's inside or outside a marriage, if it's for the right reasons, it's a good and happy thing; if it's for the wrong reasons it's terrible and makes you feel like crap.

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000