Dear Friends: There is a question noone have could answer to me, perhaps You Can help me. More than a year ago (Jan-26-99), the new ritual of exorcism was introduced in a press conference by Card. Jorge Arturo Medina Estevez, in that introduction He said that there is into the ritual a collection of prayers to recite on behalf of the faithful; but until this moment those prayers are unknown. Can You mention those prayers? In Cordibus Jesu et Mariae JAVIER NOVOA

-- Javier Novoa (jamanora@laciudad.com), March 30, 2000

Answers

I'm sorry, Javier, but I do not see anything about "a collection of prayers to recite on behalf of the faithful" in the following article, published after Cardinal Medina Estevez's preesentation. I don't believe that an approved English translation of the new rite is ready. I will therefore attach, in a separate post below the news article, the old rite from 1964, which was not substantially changed, accordingly to news articles of one year ago. Perhaps, Javier, you can find what you seek even in the old rite. (Warning: Please read this for a good reason, not just out of curiosity. This is not for the squeamish or weak in faith. It is something very serious and solemn, nothing to play around with.) John


[A ZENIT DAILY DISPATCH -- VATICAN CITY, 26 JAN 1999 (ZENIT).
This morning, Cardinal Jorge Medina, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, presented the New Rite for Exorcisms of the Roman Ritual in the Vatican Press Hall. "We know there are Catholics who have not received good formation and doubt the existence of the devil, but this is an article of faith and part of the doctrine of the Catholic Church. Whoever says the devil does not exist is no longer a believer." This was the clear and categorical answer of Cardinal Medina, in response to the question of a reporter about the doubts of many Christians on the existence of the devil.

"The new text is an outgrowth of the old. There are no substantial changes or break with the previous text. There are changes in language: the new text has more sober language, with less adjectives. Moreover, it gives the priest who practices the rite of exorcism greater liberty -- greater flexibility in the choice of prayers to use. In a word, there is a new style, in a language more adapted to our time, but the content is the same," Cardinal Medina said.

The chapter with instructions and the liturgical text of the exorcisms in the Roman Ritual was written in 1614; it was the last one needing revision after Vatican Council II. "The current text, which has been approved by the Supreme Pontiff, is published today and placed at the disposition of the pastors and faithful of the Church; it is the fruit of ten years of work and can be used immediately in Latin. Individual Episcopal Conferences will have to translate it into the appropriate national languages. In keeping with Canon Law, however, the translations will have to be submitted for approval by the Congregation for Divine Worship."

Cardinal Medina explained that "exorcism begins with the faith of the Church, according to which Satan and evil spirits exist. Their activity is to lure men away from the path of salvation. Catholic doctrine teaches that demons are fallen angels who sinned; spiritual beings of great intelligence and power. But Satan's power is not infinite; he is only a creature, but powerful because a pure spirit. Nevertheless, he cannot impede the building of the Kingdom of God."

Speaking of Satan, Cardinal Medina emphasized that "the nefarious influence of the devil and his followers is exercised habitually through deceit, lying and confusion. Just as Jesus is the Truth, the devil is the liar par excellence. From the beginning, lying has always been his favorite strategy. He deceives men by making them believe that happiness is to be found in wealth, power, and carnal concupiscence. He deceives men by persuading them they have no need of God and that they are self-sufficient, without the need of grace and of salvation. He also deceives them by minimizing -- worse yet, by making the sense of sin disappear, substituting God's law as the criterion of morality with the customs and conventions of the majority. He persuades children that lying is a good way to solve many problems, and thus, little by little, an atmosphere of distrust and suspicion is created among men. Because of the lies and deceits of the Great Liar, uncertainties and doubts are awakened in a world in which there is no longer any security, or Truth and where, instead, relativism reigns as well as the conviction that liberty consists in doing whatever one wants. There is no understanding that true liberty is found in doing God's Will, the source of good and sole font of happiness."

"For these reasons, the whole of human history is characterized by a tremendous struggle against darkness. Man must struggle without letup to remain united to the good. He cannot achieve interior unity without great effort and the help of God's grace," the Cardinal explained. "The Church is certain of the final victory of Christ and that is why she is not dragged down by fear and pessimism, but at the same time, she is very aware of the evil one who tries to discourage man and who sows confusion. It is within this framework that exorcisms must be understood, a very important chapter, but not the only one, in the struggle against the evil one."

To the question if exorcism has changed because of the advent of psychoanalysis, Cardinal Medina answered: "exorcism is one thing, and psychoanalysis is another. If the exorcist has any doubt about the mental health of the possessed, he should consult an expert. It is not always necessary, but it is prudent to hear what the psychiatrist has to say. It often happens that simple people confuse somatic problems with diabolical influence, but not everything can be attributed to the devil."

In regard to the spread of Satanic sects and occult circles, the Cardinal stated: "Satanism is a very old problem, difficult to uproot, because the people who practice it work under cover. The most tragic thing is that the devil is able to deceive man and make him seek happiness exactly where he will never find it."

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 31, 2000.

[The rite of exorcism, from the 1964 Roman Ritual, revised in 1999. Note that Psalm numbers may vary by one number from many modern Bibles.]

CHAPTER I: GENERAL RULES CONCERNING EXORCISM

1. A priest--one who is expressly and particularly authorized by the Ordinary--when he intends to perform an exorcism over persons ormented by the devil, must be properly distinguished for his piety, prudence, and integrity of life. He should fulfill this devout undertaking in all constancy and humility, being utterly immune to any striving for human aggrandizement, and relying, not on his own, but on the divine power. Moreover, he ought to be of mature years, and revered not alone for his office but for his moral qualities.

2. In order to exercise his ministry rightly, he should resort to a great deal more study of the matter (which has to be passed over here for the sake of brevity), by examining approved authors and cases from experience; on the other hand, let him carefully observe the few more important points enumerated here.

3. Especially, he should not believe too readily that a person is possessed by an evil spirit; but he ought to ascertain the signs by which a person possessed can be distinguished from one who is suffering from some illness, especially one of a psychological nature. Signs of possession may be the following: ability to speak with some facility in a strange tongue or to understand it when spoken by another; the faculty of divulging future and hidden events; display of powers which are beyond the subject's age and natural condition; and various other indications which, when taken together as a whole, build up the evidence.

4. In order to understand these matters better, let him inquire of the person possessed, following one or the other act of exorcism, what the latter experienced in his body or soul while the exorcism was being performed, and to learn also what particular words in the form had a more intimidating effect upon the devil, so that hereafter these words may be employed with greater stress and frequency.

5. He will be on his guard against the arts and subterfuges which the evil spirits are wont to use in deceiving the exorcist. For oft times they give deceptive answers and make it difficult to understand them, so that the exorcist might tire and give up, or so it might appear that the afflicted one is in no wise possessed by the devil.

6. Once in a while, after they are already recognized, they conceal themselves and leave the body practically free from every molestation, so that the victim believes himself completely delivered. Yet the exorcist may not desist until he sees the signs of deliverance.

7. At times, moreover, the evil spirits place whatever obstacles they can in the way, so that the patient may not submit to exorcism, or they try to convince him that his affliction is a natural one. Meanwhile, during the exorcism, they cause him to fall asleep, and dangle some illusion before him, while they seclude themselves, so that the afflicted one appears to be freed.

8. Some reveal a crime which has been committed and the perpetrators thereof, as well as the means of putting an end to it. Yet the afflicted person must beware of having recourse on this account to sorcerers or necromancers or to any parties except the ministers of the Church, or of making use of any superstitious or forbidden practice.

9. Sometimes the devil will leave the possessed person in peace and even allow him to receive the holy Eucharist, to make it appear that he has departed. In fact, the arts and frauds of the evil one for deceiving a man are innumerable. For this reason the exorcist must be on his guard not to fall into this trap.

10. Therefore, he will be mindful of the words of our Lord (Mt 17.20), to the effect that there is a certain type of evil spirit who cannot be driven out except by prayer and fasting. Therefore let him avail himself of these two means above all for imploring the divine assistance in expelling demons, after the example of the holy fathers; and not only himself, but let him induce others, as far as possible, to do the same.

11. If it can be done conveniently the possessed person should be led to church or to some other sacred and worthy place, where the exorcism will be held, away from the crowd. But if the person is ill, or for any valid reason, the exorcism may take place in a private home.

12. The subject, if in good mental and physical health, should be exhorted to implore God's help, to fast, and to fortify himself by frequent reception of penance and holy communion, at the discretion of the priest. And in the course of the exorcism he should be fully recollected, with his intention fixed on God, whom he should entreat with firm faith and in all humility. And if he is all the more grievously tormented, he ought to bear this patiently, never doubting the divine assistance.

13. He ought to have a crucifix at hand or somewhere in sight. If relics of the saints are available, they are to be applied in a reverent way to the breast or the head of the person possessed (the relics must be properly and securely encased and covered). One will see to it that these sacred objects are not treated improperly or that no injury is done them by the evil spirit. However, one should not hold the holy Eucharist over the head of the person or in any way apply it to his body, owing to the danger of desecration.

14. The exorcist must not digress into senseless prattle nor ask superfluous questions or such as are prompted by curiosity, particularly if they pertain to future and hidden matters, all of which have nothing to do with his office. Instead, he will bid the unclean spirit keep silence and answer only when asked. Neither ought he to give any credence to the devil if the latter maintains that he is the spirit of some saint or of a deceased party, or even claims to be a good angel.

15. But necessary questions are, for example: the number and name of the spirits inhabiting the patient, the time when they entered into him, the cause thereof, and the like. As for all jesting, laughing, and nonsense on the part of the evil spirit--the exorcist should prevent it or contemn it, and he will exhort the bystanders (whose number must be very limited) to pay no attention to such goings on; neither are they to put any question to the subject. Rather they should intercede for him to God in all humility and urgency.

16. Let the priest pronounce the exorcism in a commanding and authoritative voice, and at the same time with great confidence, humility, and fervor; and when he sees that the spirit is sorely vexed, then he oppresses and threatens all the more. If he notices that the person afflicted is experiencing a disturbance in some part of his body or an acute pain or a swelling appears in some part, he traces the sign of the cross over that place and sprinkles it with holy water, which he must have at hand for this purpose.

17. He will pay attention as to what words in particular cause the evil spirits to tremble, repeating them the more frequently. And when he comes to a threatening expression, he recurs to it again and again, always increasing the punishment. If he perceives that he is making progress, let him persist for two, three, four hours, and longer if he can, until victory is attained.

18. The exorcist should guard against giving or recommending any medicine to the patient, but should leave this care to physicians.

19. While performing the exorcism over a woman, he ought always to have assisting him several women of good repute, who will hold on to the person when she is harassed by the evil spirit. These assistants ought if possible to be close relatives of the subject and for the sake of decency the exorcist will avoid saying or doing anything which might prove an occasion of evil thoughts to himself or to the others.

20. During the exorcism he shall preferably employ words from Holy Writ, rather than forms of his own or of someone else. He shall, moreover, command the devil to tell whether he is detained in that body by necromancy, by evil signs or amulets; and if the one possessed has taken the latter by mouth, he should be made to vomit them; if he has them concealed on his person, he should expose them; and when discovered they must be burned. Moreover, the person should be exhorted to reveal all his temptations to the exorcist.

21. Finally, after the possessed one has been freed, let him be admonished to guard himself carefully against falling into sin, so as to afford no opportunity to the evil spirit of returning, lest the last state of that man become worse than the former.

CHAPTER II: RITE FOR EXORCISM

1. The priest delegated by the Ordinary to perform this office should first go to confession or at least elicit an act of contrition, and, if convenient, offer the holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and implore God's help in other fervent prayers. He vests in surplice and purple stole. Having before him the person possessed (who should be bound if there is any danger), he traces the sign of the cross over him, over himself, and the bystanders, and then sprinkles all of them with holy water. After this he kneels and says the Litany of the Saints, exclusive of the prayers which follow it. All present are to make the responses. At the end of the litany he adds the following:

Antiphon: Do not keep in mind, O Lord, our offenses or those of our parents, nor take vengeance on our sins. Our Father (the rest inaudibly until:)

P: And lead us not into temptation.
All: But deliver us from evil.

Psalm 53
After the psalm the priest continues:
P: Save your servant.
All: Who trusts in you, my God.
P: Let him (her) find in you, Lord, a fortified tower.
All: In the face of the enemy.
P: Let the enemy have no power over him (her).
All: And the son of iniquity be powerless to harm him (her). Lord, send him (her) aid from your holy place.
All: And watch over him (her) from Sion.
P: Lord, heed my prayer.
All: And let my cry be heard by you.
P: The Lord be with you.
All: May He also be with you.
Let us pray. God, whose nature is ever merciful and forgiving, accept our prayer that this servant of yours, bound by the fetters of sin, may be pardoned by your loving kindness.

Holy Lord, almighty Father, everlasting God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who once and for all consigned that fallen and apostate tyrant to the flames of hell, who sent your only-begotten Son into the world to crush that roaring lion; hasten to our call for help and snatch from ruination and from the clutches of the noonday devil this human being made in your image and likeness. Strike terror, Lord, into the beast now laying waste your vineyard. Fill your servants with courage to fight manfully against that reprobate dragon, lest he despise those who put their trust in you, and say with Pharaoh of old: "I know not God, nor will I set Israel free." Let your mighty hand cast him out of your servant, N., + so he may no longer hold captive this person whom it pleased you to make in your image, and to redeem through your Son; who lives and reigns with you, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, forever and ever.
All: Amen.

2. Then he commands the demon as follows:

I command you, unclean spirit, whoever you are, along with all your minions now attacking this servant of God, by the mysteries of the incarnation, passion, resurrection, and ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ, by the descent of the Holy Spirit, by the coming of our Lord for judgment, that you tell me by some sign your name, and the day and hour of your departure. I command you, moveover, to obey me to the letter, I who am a minister of God despite my unworthiness; nor shall you be emboldened to harm in any way this creature of God, or the bystanders, or any of their possessions.

3. Next he reads over the possessed person these selections from the Gospel, or at least one of them.

A Lesson from the holy Gospel according to St. John
John 1.1-14

As he says these opening words he signs himself and the possessed on the brow, lips, and breast.

A Lesson from the holy Gospel according to St. Mark
Mark 16.15-18
At that time Jesus said to His disciples: "Go into the whole world and preach the Gospel to all creation. He that believes and is baptized will be saved; he that does not believe will be condemned. And in the way of proofs of their claims, the following will accompany those who believe: in my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will take up serpents in their hands, and if they drink something deadly, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and these will recover."

A Lesson from the holy Gospel according to St. Luke
Luke 10.17-20
At that time the seventy-two returned in high spirits. "Master," they said, "even the demons are subject to us because we use your name!" "Yes," He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall like lightning that flashes from heaven. But mind: it is I that have given you the power to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and break the dominion of the enemy everywhere; nothing at all can injure you. Just the same, do not rejoice in the fact that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice in the fact that your names are engraved in heaven."

A Lesson from the holy Gospel according to St. Luke
Luke 11.14-22
At that time Jesus was driving out a demon, and this particular demon was dumb. The demon was driven out, the dumb man spoke, and the crowds were enraptured. But some among the people remarked: "He is a tool of Beelzebul, and that is how he drives out demons!" Another group, intending to test Him, demanded of Him a proof of His claims, to be shown in the sky. He knew their inmost thoughts. "Any kingdom torn by civil strife," He said to them, "is laid in ruins; and house tumbles upon house. So, too, if Satan is in revolt against himself, how can his kingdom last, since you say that I drive out demons as a tool of Beelzebul. And furthermore: if I drive out demons as a tool of Beelzebul, whose tools are your pupils when they do the driving out? Therefore, judged by them, you must stand condemned. But, if, on the contrary, I drive out demons by the finger of God, then, evidently the kingdom of God has by this time made its way to you. As long as a mighty lord in full armor guards his premises, he is in peaceful possession of his property; but should one mightier than he attack and overcome him, he will strip him of his armor, on which he had relied, and distribute the spoils taken from him."

P: Lord, heed my prayer.
All: And let my cry be heard by you.
P: The Lord be with you.
All: May He also be with you.

Let us pray. Almighty Lord, Word of God the Father, Jesus Christ, God and Lord of all creation; who gave to your holy apostles the power to tramp underfoot serpents and scorpions; who along with the other mandates to work miracles was pleased to grant them the authority to say: "Depart, you devils!" and by whose might Satan was made to fall from heaven like lightning; I humbly call on your holy name in fear and trembling, asking that you grant me, your unworthy servant, pardon for all my sins, steadfast faith, and the power--supported by your mighty arm--to confront with confidence and resolution this cruel demon. I ask this through you, Jesus Christ, our Lord and God, who are coming to judge both the living and the dead and the world by fire. All: Amen.

4. Next he makes the sign of the cross over himself and the one possessed, places the end of the stole on the latter's neck, and, putting his right hand on the latter's head, he says the following in accents filled with confidence and faith:
P: See the cross of the Lord; begone, you hostile powers!
All: The stem of David, the lion of Juda's tribe has conquered.
P: Lord, heed my prayer.
All: And let my cry be heard by you.
P: The Lord be with you.
All: May He also be with you.
Let us pray.
God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, I appeal to your holy name, humbly begging your kindness, that you graciously grant me help against this and every unclean spirit now tormenting this creature of yours; through Christ our Lord.
All: Amen.

Exorcism

I cast you out, unclean spirit, along with every satanic power of the enemy, every spectre from hell, and all your fell companions; in the name of our Lord Jesus + Christ Begone and stay far from this creature of God. + For it is He who commands you, He who flung you headlong from the heights of heaven into the depths of hell. It is He who commands you, He who once stilled the sea and the wind and the storm. Hearken, therefore, and tremble in fear, Satan, you enemy of the faith, you foe of the human race, you begetter of death, you robber of life, you corrupter of justice, you root of all evil and vice? seducer of men, betrayer of the nations, instigator of envy, font of avarice, fomentor of discord, author of pain and sorrow. Why, then, do you stand and resist, knowing as you must that Christ the Lord brings your plans to nothing? Fear Him, who in Isaac was offered in sacrifice, in Joseph sold into bondage, slain as the paschal lamb, crucified as man, yet triumphed over the powers of hell. (The three signs of the cross which follow are traced on the brow of the possessed person). Begone, then, in the name of the Father, + and of the Son, + and of the Holy + Spirit. Give place to the Holy Spirit by this sign of the holy + cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, who lives and reigns with the Father and the Holy Spirit, God, forever and ever.
All: Amen.

P: Lord, heed my prayer.
All: And let my cry be heard by you.
P: The Lord be with you.
All: May He also be with you.
Let us pray. God, Creator and defender of the human race, who made man in your own image, look down in pity on this your servant, N., now in the toils of the unclean spirit, now caught up in the fearsome threats of man's ancient enemy, sworn foe of our race, who befuddles and stupefies the human mind, throws it into terror, overwhelms it with fear and panic. Repel, O Lord, the devil's power, break asunder his snares and traps, put the unholy tempter to flight. By the sign + (on the brow) of your name, let your servant be protected in mind and body. (The three crosses which follow are traced on the breast of the possessed person). Keep watch over the inmost recesses of his (her) + heart; rule over his (her) + emotions; strengthen his (her) + will. Let vanish from his (her) soul the temptings of the mighty adversary. Graciously grant, O Lord, as we call on your holy name, that the evil spirit, who hitherto terrorized over us, may himself retreat in terror and defeat, so that this servant of yours may sincerely and steadfastly render you the service which is your due; through Christ our Lord.
All: Amen.

Exorcism

I adjure you, ancient serpent, by the judge of the living and the dead, by your Creator, by the Creator of the whole universe, by Him who has the power to consign you to hell, to depart forthwith in fear, along with your savage minions, from this servant of God, N., who seeks refuge in the fold of the Church. I adjure you again, + (on the brow) not by my weakness but by the might of the Holy Spirit, to depart from this servant of God, N., whom almighty God has made in His image. Yield, therefore, yield not to my own person but to the minister of Christ. For it is the power of Christ that compels you, who brought you low by His cross. Tremble before that mighty arm that broke asunder the dark prison walls and led souls forth to light. May the trembling that afflicts this human frame, + (on the breast) the fear that afflicts this image (on the brow) of God, descend on you. Make no resistance nor delay in departing from this man, for it has pleased Christ to dwell in man. Do not think of despising my command because you know me to be a great sinner. It is God + Himself who commands you; the majestic Christ + who commands you. God the Father + commands you; God the Son + commands you; God the Holy + Spirit commands you. The mystery of the cross commands + you. The faith of the holy apostles Peter and Paul and of all the saints commands + you. The blood of the martyrs commands + you. The continence of the confessors commands + you. The devout prayers of all holy men and women command + you. The saving mysteries of our Christian faith command + you.

Depart, then, transgressor. Depart, seducer, full of lies and cunning, foe of virtue, persecutor of the innocent. Give place, abominable creature, give way, you monster, give way to Christ, in whom you found none of your works. For He has already stripped you of your powers and laid waste your kingdom, bound you prisoner and plundered your weapons. He has cast you forth into the outer darkness, where everlasting ruin awaits you and your abettors. To what purpose do you insolently resist? To what purpose do you brazenly refuse? For you are guilty before almighty God, whose laws you have transgressed. You are guilty before His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, whom you presumed to tempt, whom you dared to nail to the cross. You are guilty before the who]e human race, to whom you proferred by your enticements the poisoned cup of death.

Therefore, I adjure you, profligate dragon, in the name of the spotless + Lamb, who has trodden down the asp and the basilisk, and overcome the lion and the dragon, to depart from this man (woman) + (on the brow), to depart from the Church of God + (signing the bystanders). Tremble and flee, as we call on the name of the Lord, before whom the denizens of hell cower, to whom the heavenly Virtues and Powers and Dominations are subject, whom the Cherubim and Seraphim praise with unending cries as they sing: Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of Sabaoth. The Word made flesh + commands you; the Virgin's Son + commands you; Jesus + of Nazareth commands you, who once, when you despised His disciples, forced you to flee in shameful defeat from a man; and when He had cast you out you did not even dare, except by His leave, to enter into a herd of swine. And now as I adjure you in His + name, begone from this man (woman) who is His creature. It is futile to resist His + will. It is hard for you to kick against the + goad. The longer you delay, the heavier your punishment shall be; for it is not men you are contemning, but rather Him who rules the living and the dead, who is coming to judge both the living and the dead and the world by fire.
All: Amen.

P: Lord, heed my prayer.
All: And let my cry be heard by you.
P: The Lord be with you.
All: May He also be with you.

Let us pray. God of heaven and earth, God of the angels and archangels, God of the prophets and apostles, God of the martyrs and virgins, God who have power to bestow life after death and rest after toil; for there is no other God than you, nor can there be another true God beside you, the Creator of heaven and earth, who are truly a King, whose kingdom is without end; I humbly entreat your glorious majesty to deliver this servant of yours from the unclean spirits; through Christ our Lord.
All: Amen.

Exorcism

Therefore, I adjure you every unclean spirit, every spectre from hell, every satanic power, in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who was led into the desert after His baptism by John to vanquish you in your citadel, to cease your assaults against the creature whom He has formed from the slime of the earth for His own honor and glory; to quail before wretched man, seeing in him the image of almighty God, rather than his state of human frailty. Yield then to God, + who by His servant, Moses, cast you and your malice, in the person of Pharaoh and his army, into the depths of the sea. Yield to God, + who, by the singing of holy canticles on the part of David, His faithful servant, banished you from the heart of King Saul. Yield to God, + who condemned you in the person of Judas Iscariot, the traitor. For He now flails you with His divine scourges, + He in whose sight you and your legions once cried out: "What have we to do with you, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Have you come to torture us before the time?" Now He is driving you back into the everlasting fire, He who at the end of time will say to the wicked: "Depart from me, you accursed, into the everlasting fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels." For you, O evil one, and for you followers there will be worms that never die. An unquenchable fire stands ready for you and for your minions, you prince of accursed murderers, father of lechery, instigator of sacrileges, model of vileness, promoter of heresies, inventor of every obscenity.

Depart, then, + impious one, depart, + accursed one, depart with all your deceits, for God has willed that man should be His temple. Why do you still linger here? Give honor to God the Father + almighty, before whom every knee must bow. Give place to the Lord Jesus + Christ, who shed His most precious blood for man. Give place to the Holy + Spirit, who by His blessed apostle Peter openly struck you down in the person of Simon Magus; who cursed your lies in Annas and Saphira; who smote you in King Herod because he had not given honor to God; who by His apostle Paul afflicted you with the night of blindness in the magician Elyma, and by the mouth of the same apostle bade you to go out of Pythonissa, the soothsayer. Begone, + now! Begone, + seducer! Your place is in solitude; your abode is in the nest of serpents; get down and crawl with them. This matter brooks no delay; for see, the Lord, the ruler comes quickly, kindling fire before Him, and it will run on ahead of Him and encompass His enemies in flames. You might delude man, but God you cannot mock. It is He who casts you out, from whose sight nothing is hidden. It is He who repels you, to whose might all things are subject. It is He who expels you, He who has prepared everlasting hellfire for you and your angels, from whose mouth shall come a sharp sword, who is coming to judge both the living and the dead and the world by fire.
All: Amen.

5. All the above may be repeated as long as necessary, until the one possessed has been fully freed.
6. It will also help to say devoutly and often over the afflicted person the Our Father, Hail Mary, and the Creed, as well as any of the prayers given below.
7. The Canticle of our Lady, with the doxology; the Canticle of Zachary, with the doxology.

[CONCLUDED IN NEXT POST]

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 31, 2000.

[The conclusion of the rite of exorcism, from the 1964 Roman Ritual, revised in 1999. Note that Psalm numbers may vary by one number from many modern Bibles.]

Athanasian Creed
P: Whoever wills to be saved * must before all else hold fast to the Catholic faith.
All: Unless one keeps this faith whole and untarnished, * without doubt he will perish forever.
P: Now this is the Catholic faith: * that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in unity;
All: Neither confusing the Persons one with the other, * nor making a distinction in their nature.
P: For the Father is a distinct Person; and so is the Son, * and so is the Holy Spirit.
All: Yet the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit possess one Godhead, * co-equal glory, co-eternal majesty.
P: As the Father is, so is the Son, * so also is the Holy Spirit.
All: The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, * the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
P: The Father is infinite, the Son is infinite, * the Holy Spirit is infinite.
All: The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, * the Holy Spirit is eternal.
P: Yet they are not three eternals, * but one eternal God.
All: Even as they are not three uncreated, or three infinites, * but one uncreated and one infinite God.
P: So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, * the Holy Spirit is almighty.
All: Yet they are not three almighties, * but they are the one Almighty.
P: Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, * the Holy Spirit is God.
All: Yet they are not three gods, * but one God.
P: Thus the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, * the Holy Spirit is Lord.
All: Yet there are not three lords, * but one Lord.
P: For just as Christian truth compels us to profess that each Person is individually God and Lord, * so does the Catholic religion forbid us to hold that there are three gods or lords.
All: The Father was not made by any power; * He was neither created nor begotten.
P: The Son is from the Father alone, * neither created nor made, but begotten.
All: The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son, * neither made nor created nor begotten, but He proceeds.
P: So there is one Father, not three; one Son, not three; * one Holy Spirit, not three.
All: And in this Trinity one Person is not earlier or later, nor is one greater or less; * but all three Persons are co-eternal and co-equal.
P: In every way, then, as already affirmed, * unity in Trinity and Trinity in unity is to be worshipped.
All: Whoever, then, wills to be saved * must assent to this doctrine of the Blessed Trinity.
P: But it is necessary for everlasting salvation * that one also firmly believe in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
All: True faith, then, requires us to believe and profess * that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is both God and man.
P: He is God, begotten of the substance of the Father from eternity; * He is man, born in time of the substance of His Mother.
All: He is perfect God, and perfect man * subsisting in a rational soul and a human body.
P: He is equal to the Father in His divine nature, * but less than the Father in His human nature as such.
All: And though He is God and man, * yet He is the one Christ, not two;
P: One, however, not by any change of divinity into flesh, * but by the act of God assuming a human nature. All: He is one only, not by a mixture of substance, * but by the oneness of His Person.
P: For, somewhat as the rational soul and the body compose one man, * so Christ is one Person who is both God and man;
All: Who suffered for our salvation, who descended into hell, * who rose again the third day from the dead;
P: Who ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty, * from there He shall come to judge both the living and the dead.
All: At His coming all men shall rise again in their bodies, * and shall give an account of their works.
P: And those who have done good shall enter into everlasting life, * but those who have done evil into ever lasting fire.
All: All this is Catholic faith, * and unless one believes it truly and firmly one cannot be saved.
P: Glory be to the Father
All: As it was in the beginning.

{Here follow a large number of psalms which may be used at the exorcist's discretion but are not a necessary part of the rite. Some of them occur in other parts of the Ritual and are so indicated; the others may be taken from the Psalter. Psalm 90; psalm 67; psalm 69; psalm 53 psalm 117; psalm 34; psalm 30; psalm 21, psalm 3; psalm 10; psalm 12.

Prayer Following Deliverance

Almighty God, we beg you to keep the evil spirit from further molesting this servant of yours, and to keep him far away, never to return. At your command, O Lord, may the goodness and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ, our Redeemer, take possession of this man (woman). May we no longer fear any evil since the Lord is with us; who lives and reigns with you, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, forever and ever.
All: Amen.



-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 31, 2000.

You would probably find the answers to many questions on this subject in the 1999 reprint edition of Fr. Gabriele Amorth's ''An Exorcist Tells His Story'', from the Ignatius Press, San Fransisco. I bought it last year at London's Westminster Cathedral gift shop-- of all places. On the flight coming home, I started to read it. I had finished it before we landed in Los Angeles! A great subject, a fine book, altogether sadly ignored nowadays. Even in the Church.

-- Eugene Chavez (rechavez@popmail.ucsd.edu), April 02, 2000.

Is the above article with directives available/posted anywhere else on the net?

Yours in Christ Christina Triana

-- Christina Triana (RomeChurch@aol.com), April 03, 2000.

Father Gabriele Amorth states in his book, he is chief exorcist of Rome. It reads about 200 pages long, with some prayers and addenda. He relates very frankly direct knowledge of, and participation in, literally thousands of exorcisms throughout the world. He also takes pains to deplore the ignorance and indifference even among the clergy; in letting exorcism drop into disuse when it's clear to him the church has this power available. No one can say it isn't a gospel truth, as Jesus Christ made it very evident.

-- Eugene Chavez (rechavez@popmail.ucsd.edu), April 03, 2000.

My mother was born and raised in Sicily. So, as some of you know, the "old ways" (otherwise known as superstitions) were and still are very prevelant in that area. It was not uncommon for my mother to go around the house with holy oils, salt, and a crucifix to bless our home for whatever reason, or say latin prayers over us in a certain melodic chant when we were ill with fever. With regard to exorcisms, I can recall my mother praying over a child, that today would have been called autistic. It wasn't just my mother, but her sister and another woman, plus the mother and myself and sister. Anyway, they spoke in both English, Italian, and Latin. I distinctly remember them saying words like "Dominus, cast out, in the name of..." And we were there a loooong time. I don't know whatever happened to the little girl and my mother would only speak about it once to me years later, but she said that they were "casting out demons." I guess my question is, can a lay person cast out a demon(s)? If a priest is not available or if you are in a dire situation, as the spiritual realm can present themselves without warning sometimes, is there any circumstance that someone can do that?

Yours in Christ,

-- Christina Triana (RomeChurch@aol.com), April 04, 2000.

My understanding is, yes. But it can be very risky to that lay person. It is risky even for a priest, who isn't spiritually equal to the task. For one thing, the devil is always extremely reluctant to speak out at his command. If the devil sees the person's own lack of faith, he simply refuses to be exorcized, and may even retaliate in a violent way. Some people are not really under the influence of a devil at all, only deranged. It's a job for trained exorcists. This was what Father Gabriele maintained in his book. Every Bishop should assign the duty of exorcist to a priest he knows for his great spiritual excellence and holiness. The Ritual itself is not difficult, and all the Church's authority, with sacramentals, etc., is available to his use. It is not simple superstition! The Devil wants us to thinks so, naturally /

-- Eugene Chavez (rechavez@popmail.ucsd.edu), April 04, 2000.

[Posted by J. F. Gecik, April 4, 2000 p.m.]

I'm sorry, Eugene, but I have to disagree with you, if you were speaking about Catholic lay people. The following is an unofficial translation of part of a 1984 instruction from the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, prefect).

"1. Canon 1172 of the Code of Canon Law declares that no one may licitly perform exorcisms on those who are possessed, unless he has obtained particular and express permission from the local ordinary, and it decrees that this permission is to be granted by the Bishop only to priests who are outstanding in piety, knowledge, prudence, and integrity of life. Bishops are therefore strongly urged to enforce the observance of these prescriptions."

"2. It follows also from these same prescriptions that Christ's faithful may not employ the formula of exorcism against Satan and the fallen angels which is excerpted from that formula made official by order of Pope Leo XIII, and certainly may not use the entire text of that exorcism. Let all bishops take care to admonish the faithful about this matter whenever such instruction is required."

But the above pertains to Catholics, for whom the Church has decided it prudent to make these disciplinary rules. What about non-Catholic/non-Orthodox Christians? The Church does not have anything negative to say about Protestant exorcists (almost none of whom have received the Sacrament of Holy Orders). This is in keeping with the spirit of this Gospel passage from Mark 9:
John said to him, "Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he was not following us." But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is for us.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), April 04, 2000.

I like Jesus's style better than a lenghty ritual, he just said, "Come Out!" and they did! That's worked for me on more than one occasion. The only time I had to go any deeper was when the person possessed was voluntarily involved in occultic sin. Deliverance can only occur when the person requiring it wants the freedom found in Christ and repents of the sin they are involved in (where that applies).

-- David Bowerman (dbowerman@blazenet.net), April 04, 2000.

[Posted by J. F. Gecik, April 4, 2000 p.m.]

Dave,
I'm sorry if this is going to come across as a personal attack. I mean it as a "fraternal correction," because I am confident that you meant nothing malicious.
There are no better ways for you to cause me and other Catholics here to think that you have fooled yourself and to disbelieve that you have performed genuine exorcisms than for you to do these things, which you just did:
(1) to criticize the Catholic ritual, used for centuries, and ...
(2) to even mention that you performed exorcisms, rather than keeping this to yourself.

Apparently, you did not realize how unbecoming it was for you to imply that your words, "Come out!" were just as powerful as the same words of Jesus -- and that your two words were more effective than the efforts of Catholic priests, who use more words than that. It is so easy to forget this passage: "And when he had entered the house, his disciples asked him privately, 'Why could we not cast it out?' And he said to them, 'This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer.'" The Catholic ritual is prepared for long, difficult exorcisms "by prayer." To answer your comment about the length of the Catholic ritual ... I believe that only as much of the ritual is used as is necessary to effect the exorcism.

God bless you. John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), April 04, 2000.

Dear John, --I stand corrected, about an option for lay persons performing exorcisms. No; they haven't one, under cannon law. I think in my response it was the means that lay persons have available, to repel the Devil; I should have said. These are the use of prayer, sacramentals, holy water, holy medals, etc. I believe the prayer to St Michael Archangel is recommended, as well as the Holy Rosary. The sacrament of Penance was another. Too may modern Catholics, even priests look at it all as embarrassing superstitions. But the Church has never taught superstition.

-- Eugene Chavez (rechavez@popmail.ucsd.edu), April 05, 2000.

Dear friends: I Want to thank for your contributions, but I also think that We4ve lost the sight of the original question. The complete text of the press conference by Card. Jorge Arturo Medina Estevez(Jan-26-1999), Can be read on http://www.multimedios.org/bec/etexts/exsrcsm.htm That text appear only in spanish, so You can use a translator available on the net. I4m going to write in spanish from this moment, so sorry for My American friends, and my Italian sister, please excuse me. En la presentacisn del rito de exorcismo del ritual romano podemos lee:" La redaccisn final de este rito de los exorcismos ha demandado muchos estudios, revisiones, actualizaciones y modificaciones con varias consultas de las Conferencias Episcopales, despuis de un analisis de parte de una asamblea ordinaria de la Congregacisn para el Culto Divino. El trabajo ha demandado 10 aqos y ha dado como resultado el texto actual, aprobado por el Sumo Pontmfice, que es hecho hoy pzblico y puesto a disposicisn de los pastores y de los fieles de la Iglesia. Quedara pendiente todavma un trabajo que compete a las respectivas Conferencias Episcopales: y es el de la traduccisn del ritual a las lenguas habladas en los respectivos territorios: istas traducciones deberan ser exactas y fieles al original en Latmn y deberan ser puestas,segzn la nsrma canonica, a la "recognitio"(al reconocimiento) de la Congregacisn para el Culto Divino." Mas adelante se lee: "En el ritual que hoy presentamos se encuentra, ante todo, el rito del exorcismo propiamente dicho, de ejercitarse sobre una persona posesa. Siguen las oraciones a recitarse pzblicamente por un sacerdote, con el permiso del Obispo, cuando se juzga prudentemente que existe un influjo de satanas sobre lugares, objetos o personas, sin llegar al estado de una posesisn propia y verdadera. Hay, ademas, una coleccisn de oraciones para recitar privadamente por parte de los fieles, cuando estos sospechan con fundamento de estar sujetos a influjos diabslicos."

LA PREGUNTA ORIGINAL SE REFIERE A AQUELLA PARTE QUE COMPETE SSLO A LOS LAICOS Y NO A LA QUE CORRESPONDE AL EXORCISMO PROPIAMENTE DICHO QUE SSLO INTERESA A LOS SACERDOTES EXORCISTAS DEBIDAMENTE AUTORIZADOS POR EL OBISPO DEL LUGAR. ISTO LO ESCRIBO UNICAMENTE PARA LOS CATOLICOS OBEDIENTES A LAS AUTORIDADES LEGITIMAMENTE CONSTITUIDAS, YA QUE LA LEY CANONICA ADVIERTE EXPLICITAMENTE EN EL CODIGO DE DERECHO CANONICO(CIC) # 1172 " NINGUNO PUEDE LEGITIMAMENTE PRONUNCIAR LOS EXORCISMOS SOBRE LOS ENDEMONIADOS SI NO HA OBTENIDO LICENCIA ESPECMFICA DEL ORDINARIO DEL LUGAR". TAL RECOMENDACISN ES TAMBIEN RECORDADA POR LA SAGRADA CONGREGACISN PARA LA DOCTRINA DE LA FI EN CARTA DEL 29 DE SEPTIEMBRE 1985. ISTA PARTE EXCLUYE EXPLICITAMENTE A LOS LAICOS, QUIENES PODEMOS HACER SIMPLEMENTE "ORACIONES DE LIBERACISN" LAS CUALES PUEDEN SER ESPONTANEAS O GUIADAS POR ORACIONES ESCRITAS, POR EJEMPLO VER "LA PREGHIERA DI LIBERAZIONE, P. LATEO LA GRUA ED. HARBITA,1985, PALERMO, ITALIA". HE NOTADO EN SUS CONTRIBUCIONES QUE LAS ORACIONES EN CUESTION (LAS DEL RITUAL), TODAVMA NO SON CONOCIDAS EN SUS RESPECTIVAS TRADUCCIONES AUTORIZADAS, LO CUAL ME LLEVA A PREGUNTAR NUEVAMENTE SOBRE LAS ORACIONES EN LATMN. ?CONOCE ALGUIEN LA COLECCISN DE ORACIONES DEL RITUAL, EN SU TEXTO EN LATMN? AGRADEZCO QUE NOS REMITAMOS A LA PREGUNTA ORIGINAL.

IN CORDIBUS JESU ET MARIAE,

JAVIER NOVOA

-- Javier Novoa (jamanora@laciudad.com), April 05, 2000.

Dear Javier,

I'm not familiar with your sources. However, in an addendum to his fine book, the exorcist Fr. G. Amorth gives the reader what is entitled Prayers Of Deliverance; which may well be the material you refer to. These are the titles of the (English) prayers:

Prayer Against Malefice
FROM THE GREEK RITUAL

Anima Christi

Prayer Against Every Evil

Prayer For Inner Healing

Prayer For Deliverance

Once again, the book in which the entire subject is covered-- An Exorcist Tells His Story, by Father Gabriele Amorth. Original Italian title:Un escorista raconta (1990) Edizioni Dehoniane, Rome

If the Prayers part is of interest to you, I can offer you the entire text by email; it's somewhat long.The whole can be sent in short installments. I feel it would be an imposition upon this web site to show them here in theis forum, and of course, it's copyrighted. Please let me know in a reply here. > >Ciao!

-- Eugene Chavez (rechavez@popmail.ucsd.edu), April 05, 2000.

"Hay, ademas, una coleccisn de oraciones para recitar privadamente por parte de los fieles, cuando estos sospechan con fundamento de estar sujetos a influjos diabslicos. -- There is, in addition, a collection of prayers to recite privately, on the part of the faithful, when they have a well-founded suspicion of being subject to diabolical influences." (Cardinal Jorge Arturo Medina Estevez, Prefect, Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments [my unofficial translation])"

"... LO CUAL ME LLEVA A PREGUNTAR NUEVAMENTE SOBRE LAS ORACIONES EN LATMN. ?CONOCE ALGUIEN LA COLECCISN DE ORACIONES DEL RITUAL, EN SU TEXTO EN LATMN?" (Javier Novoa)

Javier, I sense a great urgency in your request. Perhaps you or someone you know would like to pray these prayers, because of a bad situation right now. I am sorry that we cannot help you much. I have tried everything possible to search the Internet for the Latin text you seek, but cannot find it. The Vatican site is still under development, and their "search engine" is not even accessible. If the Latin text is on the Vatican computer, I cannot find the route to it.

The Latin title of the document is "De Exorcismis et supplicationibus quibusdam." Perhaps you can obtain a copy from (1) your pastor, (2) your bishop, (3) your local conference of bishops, (4) the Daughters of St. Paul, who publish Vatican texts, or (6) the Vatican Congregation itself. Perhaps it was published in L'Osservatore Romano, as are many documents. I believe that all documents are published in something called AAS (Acta Apostolicae Sedis [?] -- Deeds of the Apostolic See). You may be able to gain access to that somewhere.

We will pray for you to have success in locating these prayers.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), April 05, 2000.

Mark 16:18, "And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

Now I'm confused John. You seem to be accusing me of both lying (or at least of being deluded) and of being indiscreet (as if on the wild chance I happen to be telling the truth). And you do so under the guise of fraternal correction . . . well I guess that's a little better than when you claimed to be "spanking" me :-)

I shouldn't be confused actually. Your reaction is typical of someone who has not received the baptism of the Spirit and therefore not had such supernatural experiences in your life.

I am one of thousands (perhaps millions) of Spirit-Filled believers around the world who have personally engaged in deliverance. It is not something that is sought out, but simply is a by-product of a life of praying for others and ministering through the laying on of hands in the power of the Holy Spirit. And when deliverance occurs, it is not something that causes one to brag or to think highly of oneself. Just as Jesus admonished the 12 upon their return from their healing and deliverance assignment, we are not to rejoice that the demons obey us -- and I take that very seriously.

Jesus's life is filled with examples of demons manifesting as he prayed for the sick and just as he promised, when his followers do the same, they will have the same experiences regarding demons. The scripture I quoted above declares that deliverance should be a normal part of every believer's life. The tragedy here is not that I am coming across here as being so arrogant (or whatever) as to mention that I have performed deliverances, rather, the tragedy is that you are so shocked by that. Why is something that the Lord said should be a sign in the life of every believer so foreign to the vast majority of the world's Christians? Just how far has the Church strayed from the path Jesus defined?

Also, the reason I posted my message was not to criticize the Catholic methodology of exorcism, hey if it works for you, go for it. Instead, my intent was to offer an effective and scripturally accurate alternative.

As for it being "unbecoming" for me to borrow our Lord's words and technique and assume it should work for me, I must clarify one thing, what I would actually say is more along the lines of "In the Name of Jesus Christ, come out!" You see, it is not by my authority that demons flee, but by the Lord's. I am simply following the pattern set by Jesus and followed by the 12, the 72 and Paul from what examples we have. My question would be, if I'm following the scriptural model for exorcism (which is clearly evident in the scriptures), just whose model are you following?

Dave

-- David Bowerman (dbowerman@blazenet.net), April 05, 2000.

[Posted by J. F. Gecik, April 5, 2000 p.m.]

Dear Dave,
There are too many productive things for me to do on this board and elsewhere to waste time on a feud with you. I will leave it to Our Lord (and other visitors here, if they wish) to judge what I see to be these simple facts:
In your April 4 message, you erred in a couple of ways (very offensively, but not maliciously, I opined last time);
I briefly and calmly called this to your attention, so that you might avoid similar expressions in the future;
You did not apologize and admit that you had offended Catholics and that you had seemed to be boasting of your powers over satan;
Instead, you so lost your cool at being corrected by me that you missed my point -- your pride (rather than lying, delusion, or indiscretion, as you thought); So you turned this time to a malicious and sarcastic insult and you exposed much more of the main shortcoming I was trying to "call you" on -- pride -- and here I refer to your "baptized-in-the-spirit superiority complex" and other manifestations of a (low-key, but noticeable) wiser-than-the-Catholic-Church attitude that have hurt me so many times;
When you just now explained that your words, "Come out," are preceded by, "in the name of Jesus Christ" -- the omission of which was the single biggest problem I had with your previous message -- you did not apologize or thank me for bringing this to your attention, but referred to it as a "clarification."
Despite the shortness of our acquaintance, Dave, I have had enough contact with you to believe that all this is beneath your dignity. Having apologized for posting hurtful words on this board in the past and having been forgiven, I forgive you here and now, even if you choose not to apologize.

Now, I must turn to something substantial that you have raised. You quoted Mark 16:18, as follows: "And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

I am aware of the fact that you belong to a Pentecostal Protestant denomination, at least some members of which believe that these words should be taken literally concerning all Christians of all times. It seems that you harshly criticize Catholicism for not believing as you do concerning Mark 16:18, even though you admit to being fallibile, while that religion does not (besides which St. Mark was one of its first members).

As I have explained to you in the past, your error is rooted in a trust in the flawed concepts of "sola scriptura" (Bible without Tradition) and private, unguided interpretation of the scriptures. As you have admitted to me, your denomination was founded only in 1914, and its body of fallible doctrine was assembled by well-intentioned people who thought that the meaning of the Bible was readily apparent to them. As on so many other biblical passages, though, these founders (and yourself) have come to the wrong conclusions about Mark 16:18 -- because they did not have Sacred Tradition and a living memory of 2,000 years of Christian history to guide them.

The best thing I can do at this point s to quote from Pope St. Gregory I ("the Great"), who handed on the Church's doctrine concerning Mark 16:18, around the year 600 A.D.. This is commentary that is as fresh and meaningful today as it was 1,400 years ago...

- - - - - - - - - Are we then without faith because we cannot do these signs? No, but these things were necessary in the beginning of the Church, for the faith of believers was to be nourished by miracles, that it might increase. Thus we nourish also, when we plant trees, to be strong in the earth; but when once they have firmly fixed their roots, we leave off irrigating them.
[For us now,] these signs and miracles [in Mark 16:18] pertain to other things which we ought to consider more minutely. For Holy Church does every day in spirit what then the Apostles did in body.
- - - For when her priests, by the grace of [baptismal and penitential] exorcism, lay their hands on believers, and forbid the evil spirits to dwell in their minds, what do they do but "drive out demons?"
- - - And the faithful who have left behind earthly words, and whose mouths sound forth the holy mysteries, "speak in a new tongue."
They who by their good warnings take away evil from the hearts of others, "pick up snakes."
- - - And when they are hearing words of pestilent persuasion, without being at all drawn aside to evildoing, they "drink deadly poison," but it will never hurt them; whenever they see their neighbors growing weak in good works, and by their good example strengthen their life, they "place their hands on sick people, that they may get well."
- - - And all these miracles are greater in proportion, because they are spiritual, and by them souls, and not bodies, are raised. [End of quotation from St. Gregory.]

Dave, it is unquestionable that God can and does give some of (and perhaps all of) the gifts of Mark 16:18, in a literal way, to a very limited number of chosen individuals in every age. But we know both by the trustworthy teaching of the Catholic Church (and even by simple observation) that this biblical verse is not to be taken literally to speak of all Christians of all time -- or even many of them. Most significantly, as St. Gregory concluded, we should not DESIRE that the verse be universally true (nor true for us as individuals) in a literal way -- because the analogous spiritual gifts are so much more important.

Jesus, I trust in Thee. Jezu, ufam Tobie.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), April 06, 2000.

a quickloading list of hypertext links which references or pertains to Exorcism ...

17:17:47 CST 2 March 2000 Click Line number to report dead URL

1 A Simple Exorcism for Priests or Laity 2 Ancient Christian Exorcism Liturgy \ upenn.edu 3 Exorcism : [ An internal alapadre.net navigational link -- no content material. ] 4 Exorcism as used in the Catechism of the Catholic Church 5 Exorcism and MPD from a Catholic Perspective \ Mahoney 6 Exorcism by Jews -- BIBLIOGRAPHY 7 Exorcism by Rabbis: Talmudic Sages and Magic 8 Exorcism \ definition from CE 9 Exorcism : definition from Encarta 10 Exorcism : definition from nd.edu 11 Exorcism : Greek Orthodox Archdiocese 12 Exorcism : On the Current Norms Governing Exorcisms \ CDF 13 Exorcism : The Roman Ritual (2) \ The Rite for Exorcism 14 Exorcism : Whether Exorcism should precede Baptism \ St Thomas Aquinas 15 Exorcism : Who Has the Authority to Perform Exorcisms? \ CRNET 16 LCMS FAQs--Exorcism 17 Mark 9:38-41 and the Validity of Protestant and other Unauthorized Exorcisms 18 Media story on Exorcism : African Pelate must seek Local Bishop's Approval 19 Media story on Exorcism : Exorcist says Pope's teaching shows importance (U) 20 Media story on Exorcism : Rome's Exorcist Scores Lax Practice 21 The Power of Holy Water ( and Simple Exorcism prayer for Priests and Laity)

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I hope that Rev. John J. Stryjewski has no objection to put people in contact with his magnificent page.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), April 06, 2000.

THANKS for the great lead, Enrique!
I think that you forgot to give us the URL, but I found it by using www.yahoo.com, searching on "Stryjewski."
. It is http://alapadre.net/
You can click here.
When you arrive there, you can click on the "Topical Index" link first, then scroll down to "Exorcism."
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), April 06, 2000.

John,

I am sorry that you've taken such offense where none is intended. But I do not apologize for making my observations and describing my experiences as a Spirit-Filled Christian. It is never offered out of an "I'm better than you" sort of pride, but as insight into a window of Christianity which is growing daily around the world even as we "speak".

My comment about your perspective being typical of non-Spirit-Filled Christians is not an insult but a simple and truthful observation. Christians who have not experienced the infilling of the Spirit accompanied by speaking in tongues often are offended when they hear of the supernatural experiences encountered by those who have been filled with the Spirit and usually accuse the other of coming across as superior when in fact most of the time they are projecting their own sense of inferiority. There is not much I can do to placate your feelings other than to encourage you to personally pursue the Spirit-Filled life. It is available to ALL Christians without exception. Perhaps you could contact a local Lamb of God priest for details and information that could start you on your way.

As for the writings of Pope Gregory I, again I am not surprised. By 600 AD, the manifestations of the Spirit had long been relegated as a rare event in the Church. Do not take offense at that. I say that because it is generally recognized that the manifestations of the Spirit began to wane within the first few generations of Christians and only cropped up on occasion and for brief periods throughout the centuries. I honestly do not know why that happened nor do I understand why God has chosen to restore these manifestations to the Church (universal) in this hour, but that is indeed what is happening. It is not something unique to me or any small group. By the most conservative estimates, we number over a hundred million worldwide including Charismatic Catholics (notice how I adjusted my numbers down from the 450 million estimate that we discussed earlier since I can't yet substantiate where those numbers came from? :-)

I hope that clarifies my motives if nothing else.

Dave

-- David Bowerman (dbowerman@blazenet.net), April 06, 2000.

Dear David,
I have been invited to Cursillos, by a fine priest that once visited a parish of mine. But I declined. It has always seemed to me as if movements of that sort tend to an elitist standard of church activity. From that stance it is too easy to start looking down on the ordinary Catholic; though I suppose not all Cursillistas are so shallow. Being human, it's for sure that some ARE. Certainly, it wouldn't be fair of me to judge their motives.

I only know that the way of salvation the Church has always expected of its members is truly simple. Prayer, the Holy Sacraments, and the Cardinal virtues, Faith, Hope and Charity. This has always been good enough for all of us, from the most ignorant and unsophisticated to the Doctors of the Church. I wonder what any group can add to that; and whether it can lead anyone to a deeper love for God and neighbor. My heart says it can't; tongues, charisms notwithstanding. Just my opinion.

-- Eugene Chavez (rechavez@popmail.ucsd.edu), April 06, 2000.

[Posted by J. F. Gecik, April 6, 2000 p.m.]

Dave,
I am more deeply offended by each succeeding pride-filled post of yours. I trust that others reading here can see why, even though you are apparently blind to it. Lest I burden them with things that ought to be reserved to personal communication between me and you, I will only state publicly how incredibly brazen and disgusting it was for you to say to me: "[I] encourage you to personally pursue the Spirit-Filled life." How dare you presume to judge the role being played by the Holy Spirit in my life (and the life of other "non-Charismatic" Catholics), and how dare you presume to judge the depth of His influence in "filling" us!?

Seat of Wisdom, pray for us.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), April 06, 2000.

Hi Eugene,

I can appreciate what your saying. Indeed, many Charismatics probably do look down on "ordinary" Catholics or Christians in general, but not only is that immature (as you pointed out), it also demonstrates a complete lack of understanding the grace that is operating in all of our lives. No one "achieved" anything when they were baptized in the Spirit. It is a gift of God and is God's desire for all of his children. If everyone in the Church were baptized in the Spirit, there wouldn't be that sense of elitism. In my church, pretty much everyone who attends has experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit so we don't have that sense of elite versus ordinary. Everyone is the same and to be honest we tend to forget that not all Christians accept what we believe in and have received.

You are also correct that it is not required for salvation. But if it is indeed a gift from God intended for all of us, isn't that something that should be pursued by all of us?

As for how being baptized in the Holy Spirit impacts our love for God, I can simply convey that after being filled with the Spirit, my love for God greatly expanded as did my desire to be holy (in order to please him), to read his Word and books that help me to better understand him, to worship and sing to him for hours on end. My thirst for the things of God became quite intense in every way. My prayer life became alive as I found myself praying for hours every day. I was so caught up in loving him and wanting to be with him that all I wanted to do was worship and pray as much as I could. That is one reason why many Charismatic churches worship in song for an hour and a half several times a week and gather for intercessory prayer at least once a week where we pray together for hours.

In addition to the ways it enhanced my relationship with God, being baptized in the Spirit also put me in a place where God started to move through me teaching me how to flow in various manifestations of his Spirit that greatly benefitted others. Words of knowledge, healing, deliverance, etc. are all gifts of the Holy Spirit which are available to operate through all believers once they have been baptized in the Spirit. Granted, the vast majority receive their prayer language (speaking in tongues) and never press in to function in the greater gifts as Paul encourages us to do in his letter to the Corithinians -- and that is sad.

Perhaps an analogy that fits well in my view is like comparing the difference is between dangling your feet in the water of a cool pool on a blistering hot day (very refreshing and satisfying) versus jumping in head-first so that all of you is covered in the refreshing waters and then remaining in the pool learning how to swim and helping others learn how to swim.

While I am not personally familiar with Cursillos, maybe it is something that you might want to check out first hand before dismissing it altogether. You can always say no thanks once you're there, but you may not know what you're missing until you've seen it a little closer. Perhaps your priest friend could recommend some reading materials that could address some of the issues and concerns you have. Just a thought.

Hope that helped.

Dave

-- David Bowerman (dbowerman@blazenet.net), April 06, 2000.

John,

All I can say is you can lead some horses to water, but you can't get them to take a drink.

Did you not tell me directly that you have not experienced the baptism of the Spirit with speaking in tongues? Then why are you accusing me of making judgements about . . . oh never mind. Much as I've tried, sometimes folk just take offense so easily that it doesn't pay to try to avoid it.

John, please reconsider just who is the blind one here and who is the one lashing out in pride-filled outbursts. I'm trying to help here and you are perceiving that as prideful as if I dare to help someone such as yourself who has such an obvious spiritual superiority . . how dare I suggest blah, blah, blah. I know . . . that was uncalled for. It only acceptable for you to insult me. When I do it, it's prideful or disgusting. When you do it, it's called "correction". NOW I get it.

OK, I'll try to refrain from any further suggestions that you could enhance your walk with God through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Obviously your walk needs no such improvement (did that sarcasm slip out again? shame on me).

Sleep well John.

Dave

-- David Bowerman (dbowerman@blazenet.net), April 06, 2000.

Dear Eugene,
Your instincts are right. We are given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, with God's three theological virtues and the seven gifts, even in Baptism (CCC 1266). Confirmation renews and increases Baptismal gifts and graces (CCC 1303). Here we are speaking of the TRUE "Baptism of the Holy Spirit."

What some are now calling "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is something "real" in one sense, but something "spurious" in another sense. It is not a sacrament, nor even a part of mainstream Catholic theology or spirituality, but a 20th-century development in minority groups within protestantism. What is unfortunately labeled as "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is a real experience ("felt" in the soul and the body), apparently given by God to some people, for reasons known only to Him. It is not to be desired nor expected -- just as contemplative prayer is purely a gift from the Lord (not sought nor expected and not the product of a technique or ceremony). Those who receive it are no more privileged than those who do not. God knows what is best for each person.

You may find pentecostals (and even Catholic Charismatics) wrongly teaching such guilt-inducing things as the following, which contradicts the Catechism: "If you have not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, this does not mean that you are not saved nor does it mean that you are a second-class Christian. It just means that you are not taking full advantage of what Jesus has for you. He has a special gift of Holy Spirit power that can only operate in your life after you have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit."

Here are some words about it by theologian Colin Donovan:
A Catholic theological "explanation for this experience of God is a re-awakening, or strengthening, of the graces of baptism and confirmation. Once strengthened, the person's experience of the presence of God may be more acute, since they have come to realize what all Christians should know anyway, that God dwells within the just. One can have this 'feeling' quite apart from any 'baptism in the Holy Spirit.' The emphasis should be on the God who dwells within and who got there by the Sacrament of Baptism, rather than on a personal charismatic experience."

And as apologists Paul Flanagan and Robert Schihl write:
"Confirmation is the Catholic Church's official prayer for the Holy Spirit to empower a person to spread the gospel, to live a fervent Christian life, and share more fully in the mission and ministry of the Church." What some call being "'baptized in the Holy Spirit' is actually a 'release' or a 'coming to consciousness' of the power of the Holy Spirit who already has been given to the believer through the sacraments of the Church." "The person who is truly 'born again' and 'Spirit-filled' is not necessarily the one who has had an extraordinary experience of the Holy Spirit at some point ... but the person who lives and 'walks' with the Holy Spirit; who has put to death the 'works of the flesh' and manifests the 'fruits of the Spirit.' This is what it means to be a 'new creation' in Christ Jesus ..."

Please keep up your resolve, Eugene, and do not be drawn toward something that you believe God does not intend for you.
You may wish to take a short time to read some good information and advice on the subject of graces and gifts from a brilliant scripture scholar, the recently deceased Fr. William Most:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/GIFTS.TXT
http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/CHRSMATI.TXT
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), April 07, 2000.

Let me begin with a quotation from Jn 3,8: "The wind bloweth where it listed, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit". The holy Spirit is Free to give light, life, inspiration, gifts, health, etc when and where and to whom He chooses, but in the end HE CHOOSES to do so. In our part we can call on him for any of these things, but in the end it is up to Him to grant or not what we are asking for. To belong to this or that movement is in no way a guarantee that we will receive special gifts. After all since my catechism days we were told that there are some GRATUITOUS GIFTS from the Spirit, and the speaking of tongues and prophecy , healing and so on are in this category. Jesus never said that we needed special gifts in order to attain salvation. Now if the Holy Spirit decides to grant these gifts on someone, who are we to deny them? Let's follow Christ's advice: we will know them by their fruits.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), April 07, 2000.

Dear friends: since the Cursillo came up on this thread, let me tell you my own experience with Cursillo. I attended one more than twenty years ago and I have always being grateful to the Lord for the graces I and others recieved. We witnessed true conversions of people, that according to their own testimony, were living far apart from the Lord and christian living. Many of them have not only persevered in living their FOURTH DAY, but have become true apostles. The Cursillo means three days spent in prayer and meditation and on listening to talks about God and His love for us, about Christ and his reediming power, about the Holy Sacraments, etc. given by well versed priests. There are moments when personal "vivencias" (living experiences) are presented by the cursillistas themselves, and personal prayers before the Blessed Sacrament, where many commit themselves to an active life in the service of Our Lord and our neighbours. I know many of those who made this commitment and up to this day have been faithful to it. After the cursillo is over we are invited to live in grace and service our FORTH DAY, that is the rest of our lives. The three priests that conducted the Cursillo I attended were very emphatic about many things, but I specially remember the following: * Don't think that you will convert the world in a week, a month or a year. Work and pray as if it were that way, but let the Lord do the converting at His own time. * Remember that your fourth day will be useless unless you live it in prayer and study and receive the Holy Sacraments often. * Have a spiritual director to whom you can go for guidance and comfort, whn need be. * AVOID BY ALL MEANS, to give the Cursillo movement some kind of messianic stand. It is ONLY ONE of the many ways Our Lord has to call people to Him. Therefore respect and have a high esteem for any other Catholic movement. Let no one think that his "capillita" (little chapel)is better than the HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Every Monday evening the Cursillistas come together for an hour of prayer, meditation, "vivencias" and talks by a priest. At the Ultreya (that's the name given to this hour)we receive holy Comunion or when possible attend Mass. There are diocesan, national and World Ultreyas, lasting at least three days.

There are so many things I could say about the Cursillo, but it would take pages and pages. I think with these few lines you have at least some idea of what it is and how it works.

Let's live fervently our Fourth Day!!!!

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), April 09, 2000.

Enrique, des vez en cuando le pido a un amigo que me facilita su maquina para enviar mis mensajes que me traduzca algunas de las intervenciones de las personas en este foro. Me dio mucho gusto saber que eres cursillista. Yo tambiin lo soy y estoy feliz. Para mm el cursillo fue un reencuentro con Dios despuis de una larga vida de catolicismo de rutina y mediocre, de lo cual estoy agradecido al Seqor. Tienes razsn, vivamos nuestro cuarto dma con gozo fervor. Joshua

-- Joshua Zuniga (joshuazuniga@usa.net), April 11, 2000.

Estimados Enrique, Joshua,
Sera con Udes. el cursillo como encontraron esa plenitud de gracia. Venimos aqui peregrinos y unos arriban pronto, otros por via lejana. Nomas dire que mi conversion a sido el evento mas profundo de mi vida; ya prolongandose casi 45 anos.

Fue a base de un gran sufrimiento; la prueva que Nuestro Senor suele enviar a tantos. Milagrosamente, en cuanto yo me entregaba a la cruz; diciendole a Cristo --deseo ser contigo suspendido de esa cruz-- Me cambio la suerte. He pasado a la etapa mas contenta de mi vida; vivo sereno con una esposa esplendida (Catolica hasta las cachas!), aunque de todos modos ansioso por mis pecados. Esto es, pues la condicion de este mundo. Oren siempre por su amigo, el peregrino.

-- Eugene Chavez (rechavez@popmail.ucsd.edu), April 11, 2000.

To whom it may concern: I am a catholic who is interested in learning more about excorsism.... God Bless you...please write..

Sincerely, Maritza Rivera

-- Maritza Rivera Moret (rivera-maritza@usa.net), February 17, 2001.

Xavier

-- David (David@excite.com), July 09, 2002.

Careful with the new rite of exorcism discussed above. Fr. Amorth takes the changed rite to task here< /a>. As Fr. Amorth discusses, the Smoke of Satan has made its way into the Vatican -- brave priests like Fr. Amorth continue their war on Satan without any official support from the Vatican and the Bishops (as he discusses in the cited article). Best to seek out a knowledgable priest who uses the unrevised Rite of Exorcism.

-- Jaime Esquierva (nobis_peccatoribus@yahoo.com), November 05, 2003.

I saw a few horror movies about it , like "the exorcism" !!

What is exorcism , can anyone explain this to me , plz ??

In my personal opinion , it's all fake !! __ Sorry , but I don't believe in spirits , ghosts , zombies , .... !!

Salut & cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), November 06, 2003.

I believe that the "Exorcist" had a Jesuit Priest as their movie consultant. They claimed that the exorcism sequences were based on the actual rite. They also claimed that the story was based on actual events experienced by a real exorcism done on a boy near the town where the "Exorcist" was filmed. It does seem rather impossible to accept the reality that a human body could levitate or that inanimate objects could suddenly defy the laws of nature. But, these movie makers did claim that such phenomena has been documented. I'm the type of person who has to see it to believe it, but in this case, I'd better pass.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 06, 2003.

Laurent: Sorry, but I don't believe.

You should, amigo. Do you believe in God? This is a "Catholic" discussion about an important Catholic Rite. Are you Catholic?

For info on the very real and very important Rite of Exorcism, read this.

Satan and his minions are real. The Smoke of Satan in the Vatican is real. Mary Our Queen will triumph in the end, but until then brave priests like Fr. Amorth do battle, and we should pray for those priests.

-- Jaime Esquierva (nobis_peccatoribus@yahoo.com), November 06, 2003.

-- Jaime Esquierva , I don't even belief in satanism , to be honest , I don't belief in any religion !! __ I left the catholic church without any regret , also on a lot of points , I disagree with the rcc !!!!

I red the link you gave , I think you know my answer !!

OFF-topic:

PS:

The one who murder in satans'name or in everyones'name , to me they are criminals , who only deserve the death penalty !! __ No one has the right to kill people for fun !!

BACK-topic:

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), November 06, 2003.

Jaime E, much of what you stated is good -- especially trying to get the extremely ignorant, ex-Catholic atheist (Laurent LUG) to believe in the devil and exorcism.

However, Jaime E, you made one big mistake, saying "The Smoke of Satan in the Vatican is real." You do not live in or near the Vatican, so you have NO IDEA, from personal knowledge about any "smoke" of any kind (except incense smoke) in the Vatican. Don't burden us with that kind of B.S., please. (And don't give us any bogus quotations from Pope Paul VI. He said nothing about the "smoke of Satan" being "in the Vatican.)

-- B.S.D. (Bull@Spit.Detector), November 06, 2003.

Who says I'm extremely ignorant ?? What do I ignore , tell me ??

However , there is for me good & bad , that's true , absolutely !!

But , how can you ignore something that doesn't excists , I really don't understand ??!!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), November 07, 2003.

you have NO IDEA, from personal knowledge about any "smoke" of any kind . . . in the Vatican

I suppose not, but Fr. Amorth and his fellow exorcists, who were refused an audience with the Pope in the Vatican would beg to differ:

the smoke of Satan has entered everywhere. Everywhere! Perhaps we were excluded from the audience with the Pope because they were afraid that such a large number of exorcists might succeed in chasing out the legions of demons that have installed themselves in the Vatican. (from interview cited up-thread)

I humbly defer to Fr. Amorth's judgment.

-- Jaime Esquierva (nobis_peccatoribus@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.

I humbly defer to Fr. Amorth's judgment.

That is illustrative of one of the flaws that you schismatics have. You would defer to the judgment of a priest over that of the pope. This is reminiscent of those who deferred to the judgment of the priest, Luther, over that of the pope of his time.

Who says I'm extremely ignorant ?? What do I ignore , tell me ??

I say you're "extremely ignorant." I know that English is not your first language. You should have looked up the word "ignorant" in a dictionary. It doesn't mean that you "ignore" things. It means that you lack familiarity with imporant facts (such as the things that Jaime taught you).

-- B.S.D. (Bull@Spit.Detector), November 08, 2003.

Ok , B.S.D. !! __ You say , I'm an extremely ignorant person concerning the subject exorcism & all that kind of stuff ?? __ Maybe it's true , but the same counts for you too !! __ For me personal , it's all pure made up !! __ But I must say , The movies "The exorcist" and the spoof "Repossessed" , I really enjoyed both movies !!

1 thing is 100% clear , we both have a different opinion about a lot of things !! __ The one who wants to believe (in) all these things , feel free , no problem for me !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), November 08, 2003.

Hi Laurent.

I wonder if you got the same message from the "Exorcist" that I think the movie makers were aiming at. I think that the main idea was that we can always come back to God, no matter what may be causing us to fail. There is good and evil in the world. My most favorite scene in the movie was the Holy Communion sequence. It really hit home that Christ is our Redeemer and that we should fear nothing when our faith is in Him. The next time you see that movie try to see it from that angle; you might have to spin your head in a circle to get my meaning, though.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 08, 2003.

No, you big Lug! I didn't mean that you are "an extremely ignorant person concerning the subject exorcism & all that kind of stuff". I meant that you are ignorant about ALL things of a religious/spiritual nature, including especially sexual morality, the natural law, conscience, etc..

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here by calling you "ignorant," because it may excuse your pathetic atheism when you go to meet your Maker. "Ignorance" on that day may keep your sorry butt out of Gehenna!

-- B.S.D. (Bull@Spit.Detector), November 08, 2003.

especially sexual morality, the natural law, conscience

I have a moral , I don't screw with nature !!

I have a conscience , I'm not a criminal !!

I am I , I don't follow anything , except for my thoughts !!

Movies , especially horror , I just only watch it as entertainment !!

Exceptions: movies about war & other criminal affairs !!

because it may excuse your pathetic atheism when you go to meet your Maker

Don't insult my late dad !!!!

And actually , who says I really am an atheist ??

I also don't even believe in hell !! __ When I'm dead , that's it for my own body , but I stay alive as a part of my grandchildren , also in their thoughts & memory and also in the memory of people who have know me !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), November 09, 2003.

I stay alive as part of my grandchildren

What grandchildren? You'll probably never have any, but even if you do, they will be separate persons -- not part of you.

You are going to be judged at the very moment you kick the bucket, and it may not be a pretty sight -- unless you repent soon.

Your late human father is not your Maker. GOD is your Maker. Get your head out of the darkness.

-- B.S.D. (Bull@Spit.Detector), November 09, 2003.

What grandchildren? You'll probably never have any, but even if you do, they will be separate persons -- not part of you.

yes , at moment I'm free , and I'm not a playboy , I do have a moral !! __ And why would/can I don't get children ??

And what about persons who believe and can't have children ??

You are going to be judged at the very moment you kick the bucket, and it may not be a pretty sight -- unless you repent soon.

When your dead & buried , c'est fini pour toi ou moi !!

Your late human father is not your Maker. GOD is your Maker. Get your head out of the darkness

And what is your proof ??

As I said , I have my opinion about exorcism , etc ....

We do live in a democrazy , you know !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), November 09, 2003.

Laurent, c'est vie éternel pour toi ou moi--souffrir ou réjouir!

rod..

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 09, 2003.

I don't belief in eternal life , but , .... how it would look like if we could enjoy eternal life , like highlander ??

As I said (in other words):"for us , death is the end !!" __ Until now , I haven't seen nobody risen from the death !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), November 09, 2003.

You would defer to the judgment of a priest over that of the pope.

Has the pope weighed in on the Smoke of Satan swirling around the Vatican? I'm not aware that he has.

In the meantime, I'll take the word of Rome's Chief Exorcist and continue praying St. Michael's prayer to support the Exorcists' efforts -- even if they have no support from the Vatican.

-- Jaime Esquierva (nobis_peccatoribus@yahoo.com), November 10, 2003.

And why would/can I don't get children ??

You big Lug! You may be physically capable, but I have confidence in the intelligence of the women of the world. I can't picture any of them being willing to have kids with you. The women of the world don't want their kids to have an atheistic, TV-addicted, pro-gay, "metal" maniac for a father. Now, you clean up your act, Flanders Fool, get right with God, and then you'll be closer to being ready to ave a wife and kids in your life.

When I said, "GOD is your Maker," you replied, "And what is your proof?"
But then you have the nerve to say, "When you are dead & buried , c'est fini pour toi ou moi [It's the end for you and me]!!"
How dare you say THAT, when you have no "proof" of it?

You'll say and believe, without proof, whatever pleases YOU. But when someone else says something about God, you whine, "And what is your proof?" Get this, you big Lug ... There are plenty of things in life that you believe in without proof. There are things that are not visible or measurable -- things for which there can be no scientific "proof -- but which all sane human beings believe anyway. Heck, tomorrow it will be impossible to prove that 99.9% of what is happening today actually happened -- but that won't stop you from trusting that it happened IF you hear about it from a trusted source. Well, Belgie Boy, I've heard about God from millions of trusted sources. And so has almost everyone else -- which explains why well over 90% of people in the civilized world are NOT ATHEISTS.

Has the pope weighed in on the Smoke of Satan swirling around the Vatican? I'm not aware that he has.

As you previously admitted, you are unequipped to know about any such "smoke." Moreover, that is just a metaphor for the fact that the devil tries to tempt everyone, even in the highest positions of the Church. That's no big surprise. It has been going on since the days of Pope Peter I. You are blowing the whole thing out of proportion, like a typical pseudo-traditionalist conspiracy theorist with a mantra. Don't expect me to take you seriously. Just like Laurent, you are spreading massive B.S. here. I have "detected" it!

-- B.S.D. (Bull@Spit.Detector), November 10, 2003.

-- (a@b.c), November 10, 2003.

You may be physically capable, but I have confidence in the intelligence of the women of the world. I can't picture any of them being willing to have kids with you. The women of the world don't want their kids to have an atheistic, TV-addicted, pro-gay, "metal" maniac for a father.The women of the world don't want their kids to have an atheistic, TV-addicted, pro-gay, "metal" maniac for a father.

And how do you know that , are you perfect ??

And what about believing or not believing couples who have kids with a handicap , what have they done wrong ??

I know couples who both are atheists & happy married (civial) & have healthy kids , so !!

And who says I'm metalmaniac , I play metal , yep , but that doesn't makes me a maniac , I like more kinds of music !! __ But what you're trying to say is , metal is devilish !! (??)

Television , I watch , yep , but maybe maximum 3 hours a day , sometomes just 1 hour !! __ Some days , even not !!

I don't care if someone is gay , that's their business , not mine !! __ What have they done wrong (to you) , or are you gonna committing exorcism on them ?? __ What gives you the right to call them evil ??

And who says all women are anti-gay ??

Now, you clean up your act, Flanders Fool

Who's acting ?? __ What you mean , YOU HAVE to believe ?? __ I say I don't care if you're a believer or not , it's coming from the heart and not from a book or from anywhere else outside !! __ Just my opinion !!

Wie is er nu komedie aan't spelen ?? __ Ge bedoelt dus , dat JE MOET geloven ?? __ Wel , ik zeg dat het mij niets uitmaakt of je gelooft of niet , zolang het maar vanuit uw eigenste binnen komt , en niet van een boek of van wat of waar ook !! __ Mijn mening !!

When I said, "GOD is your Maker," you replied, "And what is your proof?" But then you have the nerve to say, "When you are dead & buried , c'est fini pour toi ou moi [It's the end for you and me]!!" How dare you say THAT, when you have no "proof" of it?

Did you see someone (personal) rising from the dead ??

You'll say and believe, without proof, whatever pleases YOU. But when someone else says something about God, you whine, "And what is your proof?" Get this, you big Lug ... There are plenty of things in life that you believe in without proof. There are things that are not visible or measurable -- things for which there can be no scientific "proof -- but which all sane human beings believe anyway. Heck, tomorrow it will be impossible to prove that 99.9% of what is happening today actually happened -- but that won't stop you from trusting that it happened IF you hear about it from a trusted source.

For example: I never have knew my great-grandfather , but I know he has lived , I'm the proof of that !!

Or a concert I didn't saw , but on the comments , I can judge it was good or bad !!

And OK , there are things , I believe they were there in the past , even I didn't saw them !!

(future or present or past) ==> Life on other planets !!

Well, Belgie Boy, I've heard about God from millions of trusted sources. And so has almost everyone else -- which explains why well over 90% of people in the civilized world are NOT ATHEISTS.

That means 10% of the crowd has another opinion , what is wrong with them ?? __ From where you get all this exact numbers ?? __

btw: Also those 90% has not ALL the same opinion !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), November 11, 2003.

Laurent-

Wie heisst das auf Deutsch? Ich komme aus Amerika.Woher kommen Sie?

Entschuldigen Sie bitte, es freut mich, dass du keine Zähne hast. John 3:16

"Denn so hat Gott die Welt geliebt, daß er seinen eingeborenen Sohn gab, damit jeder, der an ihn glaubt, nicht verloren gehe, sondern ewiges Leben habe."

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 11, 2003.

on test off

-- -@-.- (-@-.-), November 11, 2003.

Wie heisst das auf Deutsch? Ich komme aus Amerika.Woher kommen Sie?

B.S.D. has written from where I am !! __ TIP: it's not Germany !!

Entschuldigen Sie bitte, es freut mich, dass du keine Zähne hast.

Indeed , I don't hate anybody , except for a few inhumans (from the past) , which I never forgive for what they have tryed to do or said about my parents !!

But as I also said before , religion is not my cup of tea !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), November 11, 2003.

Unlike you, Jaime, I will not prematurely speak to support or to criticize Fr. Amorth.

I would need to see all of what Fr. Amorth said/wrote, followed by a reaction from Pope John Paul II (or at least a reaction from Cardinal Ratzinger).

If Fr. Amorth has criticized the pope publicly -- rather than act in silent, humble obedience to the pope -- I will have no use for him at all. He may be a famous exorcist and writer, but he is only a priest. He has no magisterium and no authority to bind any human being to obedience.

-- B.S.D. (Bull@Spit.Detector), November 12, 2003.

Hello Javier....

I do not know the prayers you talk about, but I do know one very powerfull ritualistic prayer, which vocalises certain sacred and known/unknown names of God. It is called the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram. This has proved its worth to me while protecting myself, and wishing good things for people in need. It is also a VERY handy tool in cases of excorcisms. Yet again, it has proved its valour to me.

I believe not in only words, but in the MAGICK the words give as they are in their own just a tool. One can meditate on the word cup, and can get closer to God. It is the energy, power, substance YOU give to the word that is the magick. This is not understood by any whom try to "penetrate" certain mystical layers, because they are searching for something outside themselves, which when goes wrong, can cause a possession. As stated, everything comes from within. Even the divine spark we carry while in human form.

Illumination is feeding this spark from the pesonality of the person, by means of valour, honesty, devotion and love. This is why some people are mentally strong...and carry some sort of glow around them, and know what to say in some situations. ( I forgot to mention discipline ).

This is why the words of the prayer you are looking for are not important...it is the Motivation, the Emotion attached to the thing you are doing, and the Intent of what you are trying to do. ( personal gain, helping others, black of white, red or blue, up or down, left or right. )

Hopefullt this will help you on your way.....

-- Sebastiaan Elzinga (selzinga@nl.snt.com), November 13, 2003.

Fr. Benedict Groschel, a charismatic EWTN regular, had this to say about Fr. Amorth's work, in his Foreward to Fr. Amorth's book.

Just an FYI.

-- jake (j@k.e), November 13, 2003.

Meaning??

-- Sebastiaan Elzinga (selzinga@nl.snt.com), November 13, 2003.

It was just an FYI, as I said.

I do think it's interesting that even liberals like Fr. Groschel and Ralph Matrin can get behind Fr. Amorth despite any criticisms he may have regarding the attitude of the Church at large about his ministry.

It should also be kept in mind that Fr. Amorth is the exorcist for the Diocese of Rome, meaning that the Pope himself is his Bishop. I would think that if he were some sort of troublemaker, he'd have been removed, or at least reprimanded. To my knowledge, nothing like that has happened. He can't be dismissed as a hack because he's "only a priest."

-- jake (j@k.e), November 13, 2003.

I would need to see all of what Fr. Amorth said/wrote, followed by a reaction from Pope John Paul II (or at least a reaction from Cardinal Ratzinger).

Did you read the interview? 150 of the world's leading exorcists were refused an audience with the Pope; Amorth didn't blame the Pope himself for this. He blamed demonic infestation of the Vatican. This should be of major concern to everyone.

He may be a famous exorcist and writer, but he is only a priest.

with the ability to discern and drive out demons.

He has no magisterium and no authority to bind any human being to obedience.

What does this have to do with rooting out demonic infestation?

I will have no use for him at all.

You and Eugene and people of similar disposition can continue to stick your heads in the sand; ignore the pervasive Smoke of Satan; complain about Catholics bringing to light abuses and truths and plead "obedience obedience obedience!" -- Meanwhile Satan and his demons are running rapant. Some Catholics will not take on Satan with their heads in the sand. Eugene and others call them "crazy" and "schismatic".

A church recently (presently?) led by the likes of Law and Weakland is impotent against Satan -- and there is strong evidence that elements of it may even be allied with the Evil One. Be careful of whom you're obedient to.

Sebastiaan, I was talking about the Catholic Rite of Exorcism. I don't know what you are speaking about, but based on your description, I would strongly suggest you cease such practices and seek out a priest. We'll pray for you.

jake, thanks for the link.

-- Jaime Esquierva (nobis_peccatoribus@yahoo.com), November 13, 2003.

Hello Jake,

To be honest, I have no clue about the names of persons used in this forum, but one thing I do kow. We all have the power to perform this rite called excorcism. BUT with knowledge comes power. And the fact that people are scared of something new, is playing a big part in this. I have ordered this book of te Father G. Amorth, and will have a look at his state of mind regarding the banishings he has done.

I hear a lot of nems in this forum....are they important?? We are all humans, and event he pope will die some day. Sad but true. When we are cut, all of us bleed red. this makes us equal to another, no matter what kind of "position" we are in. Humbleness is the missing virtue of Man.

-- Sebastiaan Elzinga (selzinga@nl.snt.com), November 14, 2003.

Dear Mr Esquierva

How can you tell what is good or bad when you have no knowledge of that topic?? I do thank you for your prayer.

Who am I to say in my own HUMBLE way whomever,whatever is right or wrong Or am I to judge with never a bugde if someone is weak or strong?

Please do not take this writing to you as any form of critisism, but the ritual ( or prayer if you prefer ) mentioned by me is very positive. Therefore I will not take your advise, and cease this practice. Thanks anyway. You seem to be a studued human being.

Sebastiaan

-- Sebastiaan Elzinga (selzinga@nl.snt.com), November 14, 2003.

Dear Mr Esquierva

How can you tell what is good or bad when you have no knowledge of that topic?? I do thank you for your prayer.

Who am I to say in my own HUMBLE way whomever,whatever is right or wrong Or am I to judge with never a bugde if someone is weak or strong?

Please do not take this writing to you as any form of critisism, but the ritual ( or prayer if you prefer ) mentioned by me is very positive. Therefore I will not take your advise, and cease this practice. Thanks anyway. You seem to be a studied human being.

Sebastiaan

-- Sebastiaan Elzinga (selzinga@nl.snt.com), November 14, 2003.

A church recently (presently?) led by the likes of Law and Weakland is impotent against Satan -- and there is strong evidence that elements of it may even be allied with the Evil One. Be careful of whom you're obedient to.

Massive B.S. detected!

Your credibility is ZERO here, Chiquito, since you have shown yourself to be in schism. You advised me to "be careful" about being "obedient to" the Vicar of Christ on Earth. If I could be with you privately, I'd tell you exactly what you could do with THAT advice.

Meanwhile, I'll just embarrass you by saying that don't even know what is going on in the Catholic Church. You don't even know that Abp. Weakland and Cdl. Law have resigned and gone into retirement. Moreover, the Church was never "led" by them.

To bound-for-hell nitwits like you I will pay no attention. And to your bound-for-hell, dimwit ally (who B-S-ingly pins a "liberal" label on Fr. Groeschel -- not "Groschel," dimwit), I will also pay no attention.

-- B.S.D. (Bull@Spit.Detector), November 16, 2003.

I will have no use for him at all.

I will pay no attention

I disappointedly accept your decision to keep your head in the sand. The Vatican treats Fr. Amorth and 150 exorcists in this manner, and you have no desire to question why -- ok, that's a valid response; and, apparently, a common one at this board, when faced with the inroad of Satan and modernism. Head in the sand, head in the sand . . .

-- Jaime Esquierva (nobis_peccatoribus@yahoo.com), November 17, 2003.

That's B.S. again, Chiquito. My head is not in the sand. I am interested in everything having to do with the Church.

But YOUR head is in the sand -- as proved by your ignorance of the facts about the two cardinals, and as proved by the fact that you are hiding your head from what the Church teaches through Vatican II and the Catechism. You would rather get in a time machine and go back to the 19th Century, Senor Avestruz, than face 2003.

-- B.S.D. (Bull@Spit.Detector), November 17, 2003.

What about the Vatican's treatment of Fr. Amorth and the other exorcists, BSD?

What about Fr. Amorth's view of the revisions of the Rite of Exorcism?

What teachings "through the Vatican II and the Catechism" am I hiding my head from by repeating Fr. Amorth's concern?

Are you simply dismissing Fr. Amorth as not credible?

-- Jaime Esquierva (nobis_peccatoribus@yahoo.com), November 17, 2003.

We've already been over this. I don't even like to go over things ONE time with pseudo-traditionalists. I certainly am not going to go over them TWO times. Re-read the thread, and then drop it.

-- B.S.D. (Bull@Spit.Detector), November 19, 2003.

Will do, BSD. I kindly note I did drop it when I accepted you keeping your head in the sand; I do so again.

-- Jaime Esquierva (nobis_peccatoribus@yahoo.com), November 19, 2003.

Jaime:

Ecce Aggiornamento!

-- Novus Ordo Escapee (new@springtime.malarky), November 19, 2003.