One has to admire Vals support for Kenny Dagleish and to a lesser extent I was right alongside her in my opinion of the man. Recent happenings at Celtic have changed my mind and I feel the guy has lost it.. Bill Leckie did a piece on Dagleish, Barnes and Alan McDonald yesterday and in his article on Dagleish he could have been quoting Jonno word for word. Mentioning his time at Newcastle, words like cavalier team resorting to stuffy tactics were used. Kenny`s idea of holding a pre-match press conference with the lunch time bevy merchants at Baird`s Bar was a disaster, his insistence that nothing would be decided until the end of March was ludicrous, rest assured that if they had beat Rangers convincingly he would have been made manager, covering his hint-end in all direcctions. Point I am trying to make and failed to get in on the phone in after the match is the stupid theory that a Celtic manager must have the Celtic blood in him to succeed and all play great store by this, bollox. Can any one and I rated Dagleish as a great player name me a great player who made it as a top manager??, Beckenbaur, Moore,Charlton, Cruyff,Gullitt as examples., Take a gander at the journeymen players who have done the biz, Paisly, Ferguson,YBR, Wenger, Houlier to name a few. There is always a reason in my book, interesting to think what others on here think it is.

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2000

Answers

Most of my mates are Celtic men, and it's very sad, and I find no consolation in "I told you so". I hated Dalglish as our manager.

Bit harsh on Beckenbaeur, only won the World Cup I suppose. Now I know for sure Dalglish will NEVER do that.

My only thought is that the stars are pampered during their careers and don't get to understand what makes others tick, as the team is built around them, rather than them haveing to be part of the team.

I don't know what implications this has for Shearer. Somehow I think he has a big star ego, but he also a small town chip on his shoulder that will make him a hard manager.

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2000

MacBeth writes "That most stars are pampered " throughout their careers and do not realise what goes on below them, this is the type of feedback I am getting verbally when I pose the same question.

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2000

Wait one minute Bill my friend. YBR was an England International who won a pile of caps. My dad said " Bobby Robson canny player him". Journeyman indeed , git ya coat off.

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2000

Bobby Robson in my view was a steady footballer, in the Fulham team one would class Haynes as the star, okay didgy spewer I shall give YBR one up from journeyman and below star quality, for want of better term he was a canny player but more importantly could identify with other clubmates at the bottom end of the ladder and any inherent problems that may exist, a great boost on the managerial ladder

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2000

Dalgleish was hailed a hero in Glasgow when he was with us, what are the views there now? Now do they understand what we were whinging about?

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2000

Great player: cr@p manager ...To: Buff

It think there are two principle reasons:

1) exceptionally talented players tend to be individualists, who are invariably self-centred. The 'star system', and all that goes with it, only adds to their introspection. They get to 30 without ever having had to consider what makes 'mere mortals' tick - which of course is the essence of man management. Ruud Gullit is perhaps THE classic example of this, but there are many others - George Best, Bobby Charlton, Rod Marsh etc.

2) financial independence and personal wealth removes the personal motivation to graft away 7 days a week, 18 hours a day, in all kinds of weather, away from the family through holiday weekends, and needing to deal with moody, lazy, moderately talented players who are usually incapable of fully implementing your game plan on the playing field.

So, IMO the games real stars tend to lack both the management skills and motivation to succeed in Club management. There are a few exceptions, principally at international level, where the importance and exposure of the job can feed the ex-star's ego, his time horizons in the job are usually limited, and he is coaching his country's very best talent. In addition, he doesn't have to deal with the day-to-day myriad of man management issues involved in Club management.

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2000

To Tony, I feel that in the last month the Dagleish love affair with Celtic has waned quite a lot. Attempting to quote Jonno`s thoughts on him a few months ago would have met with a stonewall silence and total ignorance on the subject, it is now changing, it is no longer King Kenny, in fact I would go as far to say and if Dancin is online he may agree I personally feel his spiritual home is Liverpool. This all comes from a guy who stood by him but a lot of his recent actions leave a lot to be desired.

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2000

To Clarky, Subject Star players = crap managers.

Clarky its a case of "follow that if you can" and I am unable to, your answer unless someone else thinks differently,covers the lot as far as I am concerned, although you never mentioned "actual love of the game"!

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2000

Analogy from work experience.

My first job was in a huge IT department (500+). The career path was well structured trainee programmer... programmer... analyst p ... senior analyst p .... project leader ....

My best mate stood out (to me) as a man manager, calm, relaxed, considerate, saw the big picture, even handed. But what did the company appreciate ... technical skills. The early high performers were the techiest of the techies. They shone as trainees, programmers and quite a bit as aps. The less techie of us felt aggrieved at the progress of these starnge people. I left. Richard stayed and fought the system. In the end he has ended up (16 years later) as a very senior manager. The techie stars have fallen by the wayside as they had no man management skills, and didn't really want to have them.

Maybe its a sort of tortoise and hare thing.

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2000

Great players, cr@p managers - interesting subject and close to home for us in recent times.

Looking at individual performance in any field - including sport but also just about every other walk of like - I would draw a distinction between the innately talented and the over-achievers. The innately talented can do skilful things without having to work too hard at them. Their skills are a gift. They often suffer from lack of application, getting bored, distractions - Best would be a classic example, as would our former very own Tino. The over-achievers do what they do through working hard, practise, and commitment. They lack the inborn gifts of the innately talented, but make up for it by drive and application. As long as they remain motivated, they don't suffer from boredom or distractions. The footballing example that I used to use to set against Best, in a former life long ago, was Roger Hunt - but there are plenty of others.

When it comes to the innately talented players becoming managers, as Clarky rightly says there is often an air of impatience with the ability of lesser players. But I don't think that this is simply arrogance. The innately talented actually don't understand how their gifts work - they are inborn, and if over-analysed might actually wane. In contrast, the over-achievers know the nature of what they do inside out - they have to, to know what to do to raise their own standards, and the constant repetition hones their awareness. So the over-achievers understand very well what they do, and can easily explain it to others - if they have some ability to communicate. The innately talented, on the other hand, faced with a player of lower ability, will simply be baffled, and appear uncommunicative and arrogant.

As well as that, the over-achievers are generally the inspiring enthusiasts, because without that quality they will simply remain average themselves. The more recent equivalent of Hunt - almost his replacement - was surely Keegan, who used his own personal drive to raise an average set of innate skills to international quality. And - crucially - could then do the same for others. The innately talented are much more likely too busy being bored with it all to achieve this.

Now, here's a starter for ten: I'd be really interested to hear views on how Mr Shearer fits into this (admittedly over-siimplified) picture, and how he might fare as a manager - because I find that one really difficult to predict.

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2000

I worry about the Shearer thing - it's right to groom someone from inside the ranks so that one day he can become a manager of our great club. However, he should do his time at the likes of Swindon. YBR says that he learnt so much from managing lower league clubs. Ideally a bit of experience managing overseas would be useful, too. Again, YBR relates in his autobiog why he thinks he became a better manager from the unprofessional way the Poruguese ran their clubs and the great way Barca ran theirs... Obviously, he won't have YBR's experience til he's YBR's age but we have a right to expect proven managers at our club. Additionally, the likes of Barton are doing their coaching badges which YBR again says is vital. Can you see Shearer doing that? Barton is teaching summer and night schools - so did YBR. Don't get me wrong, I think Shearer will be a good manager but I'd be gutted to see him managing Toon without doing the preparatory work first. The Toon deserves better.

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2000

so we are back to Dalglish knocking again are we? lets try to put this in perspective shall we? Barnes took over as manager/coach at the beginning of THIS season,and he was sacked a half dozen games ago--since then Dalglish,the Director of Football takes on team duties to the end of the season.wins a few games,wins Scottish League Cup,looses to Rangers-who are currently head and shoulders above every other team in Scotland-and now is getting slagged off basically because of one poor result! do me a favour and try to keep your personal preferencs in some kind of check! btw Dalglish was a player of great ability but imho only because he never stopped working at it--oh yes and by the way,didn't he win a couple of championships in England as manager with l'pool and B'burn? Alan

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2000

Alan writes :-

(Dalglish) now is getting slagged off basically because of one poor result!

You're a bit new to this game then Alan?!!!! (-;

Taking a team from 2nd to flirting with relegation while increasing the wage bill and reducing, nay removing the entertainment from Toon's games is the work of a King Midas-in-reverse. The man was a DISASTER of immense proportions. Look at the results in his Toon career, look at the squad before and after his stay, look at (if you can bear to) videos of the games. His record at Blackburn and Liverpool is an irrelevance. From Newton Heath 5-0 to Crystal Palace 1-2 (and neither were isolated results but indicative of just how good/awful we were/became). Over 18 months or so at this club he all but destroyed us. I cannot think of a previous act of managerial butchery of such magnitude throughout football history, certainly not in Toon history.

Nice to see Buff becoming a convert to the fold. I recall defending KD (as does the estimable Val to this day) a lot throughout that disastrous season when we slid to the brink. It really hurt when I finally pulled the wool from over my eyes and saw that I had been very wrong and that the likes of Rik and his CND had seen the light much sooner than I had.

A bit like a convert from smoking I became a very strong adherent of my new belief system! I was also bitterly aware of the fact that he had destroyed the team that I had waited 36 years to see playing in Toon shirts ...

I don't know about this great player-crap manager debate (excellent points made by all BTW). My money is on Maradonna to prove you all wrong on this one ... (-;

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2000

I felt like crying after the "Old Firm" game. Outside my family the two things I love most are Newcastle United and (for reasons of Irish family history) Celtic. I HATE Dalgish. I think you know why.

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2000

I enjoyed his remarks yesterday about Celtic'c turnout being down by a third (a 'mere' 40,000), he reckoned that given the time of kickoff (6pm), the weather and the fact it was Mothers' Day, it was really a pretty good showing. Another glimpse of that humour which was always twisted - the bouncy balls comment was an attempt to lighten a serious atmosphere and he got crucified for it. Not the levellest playing field the world has ever seen. See Val, that's the closest I can come to being supportive; lovely man, a*se of a manager.

-- Anonymous, April 03, 2000