Shacking Up OK for 2/3 of "Catholics"

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Folks,

Look at this story --

"UTICA, N.Y. (Reuters/Zogby) - Years ago the mere fact that a unmarried couple opted to live together -- ``in sin!'' -- became the fuel for moral scandal." "Today, such an arrangement not only is common but even receives a solid vote of appropriateness, according to a recent Zogby America poll."

"The March survey of 1,213 adults nationwide, showed that 56% believed it was acceptable for an engaged couple to live together prior to marriage. In comparison, 40%, believed it was still unacceptable for such an arrangement to be allowed while 4.1% still had not made a final determination."

"Standing on opposite sides of the question were Catholics (62.8% who said acceptable, 34.7% who said unacceptable) versus Protestants (41.5% acceptable, 53.8% unacceptable) along with Democrats (53.2% acceptable, 41.1% unacceptable) versus Republicans (42.5% acceptable, 54.1% unacceptable)."

"What we asked: Would you say it is acceptable or unacceptable for an engaged couple to live together prior to marriage?"

Maybe the Pope should stop attending ecumenical services with apostate protetants and start minding the store.

In any event, this story certainly puts the lie to the claim that America is a "Christian nation," or that the problem with our country is not with "the people" but with the elites.

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@Hotmail.com), March 26, 2000

Answers

[Posted by J. F. Gecik, Sunday afternoon, March 26, 2000]

Steve,
If would be good if you did not waste your own time and ours by posting things like this here.

1. Most of us here are Catholics who love the Pope. We don't need people like you slamming him unjustly ("Maybe the Pope should stop attending ecumenical services with apostate protestants and start minding the store.").

2. There are about 8,760 hours in a year. The pope probably spends less than 24 to 48 hours in ecumenical services with Protestants in a year. Your comment is vacuous.

3. The Catholic Church has over one billion members spread out across every nation on earth. Those human beings are not a "store" to be "minded" by one person.

4. Just about every time one comes across a secular poll (in any of the media), in which the replies are broken down by religion, one can toss it in the trash -- or at least skip over the paragraphs with the religious breakdown. You apparently are not aware of the fact that pollsters almost never attempt to determine if a person who calls himself "Catholic" is really a Catholic.
====} It is said that, of all religious affiliations in the U.S., lots more people (about 24%) belong to the Catholic Church than to any other. But a significant portion of them are just "cultural" Catholics, who attend Mass on Christmas, Easter, weddings, and funerals -- while remaining unaware of, and not caring much about, many of the Church's teachings on faith and morality.
====) Then it is said that the second-largest "quasi-religious" group in the nation consists of many millions of "lapsed" Catholics who are not practicing any religion at all. However, when contacted by pollsters, these folks identify themselves as Catholics, because they were Catholics as kids, and they have never been anything else.
Now taking all this into account, it is easy to see how pollsters can get ridiculously inaccurate percentages, such as those you quoted.

5. Finally, if your objective is to mock Catholicism (as I think it is), it would be foolish for you to display polling statistics on this subject even if the pollsters had asked questions only of genuinely "practicing" U.S. Catholics -- those who attend Mass weekly and know what the Church teaches. Why do I say this? Because, practicing Catholics in the U.S. number fewer than 50 million -- in other words, less than 5% of worldwide Catholics. When the pollsters can give us an accurate poll concerning how much worldwide, practicing Catholics approve of engaged couples "shacking up," then I will pay attention.

Please be on the lookout, Steve, for something truly edifying that you can share with us some day. Thanks.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 26, 2000.

Dear Steve, Quit dissing the Pope. It is not his fault that a lot of Catholics shack up. That is their choice. A better question would have been Why? I can think of a million reasons why not to get married. First of all, marriage has lost it's 'special place' both in society and in the church. And you don't need a husband to have a home and kids. You don't need a husband to support you. I got married and believed it was forever and ever. I had kids thinking I would have help raising them. I gave up a career, because I was needed at home. Trust is a hard thing to regain, once lost. After my annulment, I tried shacking up--it didn't work. It was probably doomed before it started because of my lack of trust. This is not the 40's or 50's. The days of Beaver Cleaver are gone. Society has changed and we continue to let it change by out lack of protest. I have kids that are married and kids that are shacked up. I would not honestly want to see the ones shacked up get married because their relationships are full of anger and drinking and a lack of respect for each other. They're together because they have kids--and that isn't a good enough reason to stay together in a relationship that won't work. The kids pay the ultimate price. Marriage should be reserved for those persons who will make the everlasting vow of honesty and respect and love--no matter how bad things get. Until society re-evaluates marriage and puts it back in the high esteem it deserves, things won't change. Getting married is no more difficult that getting a drivers licence. As to the "poll of practising Catholics"---J.- you're in for a huge surprise--my church is full of people who are shacked up and yes, they attend church every Sunday. And yes, their kids go to Catholic school. And, yes, they all consider themselves to be practising Catholics. Are the priests to blame for this? I don't know. We have good priests who are really in tune with the world as it is today. Would all these kids be better off if their dad didn't live with mom because they are not married? They would all probably be a lot poorer and we have enough poor kids now, anyhow. Would these kids be better off without their dad living in the home and comong hame every night? No, because single parent families have more problems. Kids need their dads. When society, itself, changes the ease of divorce laws, the abortion laws and the lack of respect for the family, you will see a change--- but not before. Ellen

-- Ellen K. Hornby (dkh@canada.com), March 26, 2000.

Let me make a few points:

1. I put catholic in quotes in my heading. I'm not saying these people are catholics. In fact, I think there is every reason to think they are not. There is a similar problem with "Lutherans."

2. I realize people are responsible for their own behavior. Neither the Pope nor the clergy is to blame for "catholics" shacking up. However, it is important to send a consistent message. When people see the Pope at ecumenical meetings with representatives of false churches and religions, he is giving the impression to at least some people that fundamental moral and theological issues aren't that important, that "dialogue" and "pluralism" are the big concern. As the Catholic philosopher Thomas Molnar has put it, dialogue outside the church and dissent within go hand in hand. This ecumenical, touchy-feely, approach has trickled down to the parish level.

3. The Pope doesn't support people living together. However, has appointed bishops who, while not explicitly supporting these things, refuse to take a strong stand against sin.

4. Ellen pointed out that there are many in her church who have been shacking up for years. Has the priest spoken out against this problem? Has anyone been excommunicated?

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@Hotmail.com), March 26, 2000.


So the Pope gets together with people from other religions, is he to be condemned? My, how true the saying that nothing is new under the sun:

"and it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples, Why eateth your master with publicans and sinners? But when Jesus heard that he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick"

Matt 9,11

Are the so called "false religions" morally sick (worse than physically)?

If Jesus were physically present today would he get together with people from false religions?

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), March 27, 2000.


Dear Enrique, Of course, if Jesus was alive today, He would get together with people from 'false' religions. The people from the true religion already have the truth, so there is no need to convert them. It's the others that haven't heard or accepted the word that need converting. Ellen

-- Ellen K. Hornby (dkh@canada.com), March 28, 2000.


Steve: Please forgive my friends in this little corner of the Internet for getting excited when you start putting down the Holy Father. As a family, we, as humans, always get a little upset when someone starts bashing a member, particularly when it is the head of the family. John made an excellent point on the "Catholics" you referred to in the survey. Although they call themselves Catholics, these respondents have lost the faith. I made a point the other day about Gov. Pataki being a Catholic who believes/supports the pro-choice position (see "Abortion" in this chat group) . I mentioned that one cannot be Catholic and pro-choice at the same time. There is no such thing as a pro-choice Catholic. This also applies to those who choose to live together as man and wife outside of the sacrament of marriage. You either accept the Church's teachings in all it teaches, practice it faithfully, and are therefore considered a Catholic, or you don't. Again, at the risk of sounding redundant, St. Thomas said if you fail to believe in portions of the faith, you don't have impoverished faith, you don't have partial faith, you have no faith! These young people have lost the faith! Christians, and particularly Catholics, that is real Catholics, believe a relationship between a man and a woman is not fully realized until it contains the presence of God, and let me explain what I mean by that. In Genesis, the very first chapter, verse 28, (and I do hope you believe in the Bible as much as you follow the Pope's itinerary), God did something very special before He sent Adam and Eve forth to "multiply". He took some time out of His busy schedule, (remember He was creating the universe at the time, and besides, who could be busier than God?) and he saw fit to "bless" them. He blessed them. God wanted to show Adam and Eve their relationship was much more than a biological one like the animals around them. Theirs was a special relationship that included the participation of God Himself. Marriage isn't a union of two, it is a union of three, just like the Trinity. I won't get into all of the ethics surrounding question of marriage here and now, but let's just say, the Church is solid on its position of marriage and one discovers so, if one seeks to find out what that position really is. I recommend to anyone to ask a priest about the Church's position on marriage, and if it still remains unclear, to ask another priest, and to continue to do so, until they have the answers they are looking for. Many so-called "Catholics" have lost their faith. When one does not understand fully the reasons why the Church has taken various, and at present, unpopular stands on certain issues they can be compared to little children who have not yet been taught that if you touch a flame, surely you will be burned. If you were to poll little children about whether or not they would like candy instead of nutritional food at meal times, they probably would give you the same percentage results as the polls you refer to did. Most would opt for the candy, not realizing the ramifications of such a decision later. I don't quite agree with my colleagues however, that the Pope, and his bishops are not partially to blame for our present state of affairs. In fairness to the Pope, he has been most outspoken about cohabitation among unmarried people. However, I do believe he bears some responsibility, as do all Catholics, including bishops, for the present state of morality with Catholics, and for that matter, with everyone else around the world. As Christians, we have a duty to ensure all peoples are made aware of the "Truth". We have many problems in the Church today, and one of the most pressing is our failure to catechize our young people and explain why the Church takes such passionate and rational stances, based on tradition and scripture, on these very controversial subjects. If young people were made aware of why the "pill" for example, is so intrinsically evil, I doubt it would be an issue in today's society. We, as the present trustees of the faith, are failing to teach our young people all they need to know to practice their faith in a manner befitting and pleasing their God. You are correct in stating that our clergy do not do enough to condemn a life style not conducive to healing and salvation. Our priests need to do more, and it should all start in the pulpit. The Church does not ex-communicate people every time they sin. My pastor invites and encourages those who are living together to Mass on Sunday, as he feels it is the only place they are going to hear the "Truth".

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon Sr. (grader@accglobal.net), March 30, 2000.


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