I live on the first floor of a two story building. One of my walls is under the staircase. In this nook I have my TV, bookshelf and a few tiles lined on the wall. My new neighbor tromps up the stairs and stomps all around her apartment. She has managed to lossen the cable on my tv and knock the tiles off my wall. She also paces in her apratment. I have become obsessed with tracking her movements. I find myself looking at the ceiling and following her with my eyes. It is driving me crazy. Can you guys think of a funny note to leave on her door or a tactful way for me to approach her? Any suggestions?

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2000

Answers

"Hi! I hate to be a bother, but I work a night job and have to sleep during the day. Sometimes I notice that I can hear you walking up the stairs and in your apartment, and I was wondering if you could possibly walk a little more quietly, at least in the daylight hours. I'd really appreciate it. I'm in Apartment XX and if there's ever anything I can do for you, just let me know. Thanks!"

Not guaranteed to work, but it's worth a shot?

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2000

I have no useful advice to offer, but just wanted to say that that "The moose is loose upstairs" may well be the funniest subject line I've ever seen.

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2000

She loosened the cable? My god.. What is she doing up there?

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2000

I sympathize. Oh man, do I ever! My upstairs neighbor is a very sweet old lady from Turkey - we hardly speak each other's language, but we do share the occasional smile in passing. A few times a week, her grandchildren, all 327 of them, come to visit, making the most Godawful racket you can imagine. It's a nuisance, but I can't bring myself to mention it to her, as she and her family really are very sweet people. However, I do turn the stereo up to full blast when the mood strikes me. Like last week, when I had just purchased the Ramones Anthology. And they've never commented on that either. So it's really a kind of mutual non-agreement: they make whatever noise they want and so do I. And in the meantime we're still good neighbors.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2000

I hate to tell you, but there is a good possibility that your neighbor can't help it, not if the building is old and the floors are saggy. In our last place, our neighbor complained all the time about us walking up the stairs and around in our apartment. We had hardwood floors (does your neighbor? because it makes the problem a lot worse), but we bought rugs to try to help the problem. I never wear shoes in the house. We didn't run in the apartment; we walked from the kitchen to the dining room to the bedroom to the bathroom like normal people. Neither of us at that time weighed more than 130 pounds. It was just a very old building with very loud floors. Our neighbor also used to complain about our cat Sally (who weighs about ten pounds) playing on the living room floor, because it was really loud. Apparently we collectively sounded like a herd of elephants up there, and yes, we made the walls shake on occasion. Just from walking.

It is an unfortunate fact of apartment life that sometimes you can't find peace and quiet. We used to complain when our neighbors cranked up their stereo so loud that it shook our pictures and drowned out our TV, but what was really annoying was listening to them talk on their front porch while we were in our living room or on our balcony. A weird trick of acoustics made it so their conversations were louder than ours -- but they weren't yelling; they were talking in normal voices at perfectly acceptable times of the day. We couldn't expect them to never speak, any more than they could expect us to remain in one spot all the time.

I've lived in downstairs apartments, most recently beneath the Great Fucking Machine (several times a night, sometimes with multiple girls, and he had a very creaky brass bed) and the Dancing Drag Queen (she was not exactly a small person and she listened to a lot of Gloria Estefan at two a.m., with accompanying dance moves). That last one was it for me and downstairs apartments; the next time around, *I* wanted to be the meandering buffalo. So I sympathize with you, but honestly, it might not be her fault. And you might just be stuck with the noise.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2000

Yep, Beth, I'm with you on this one. Our current building is very old and poorly maintained, so the stairs and the floors make a horrible racket when you walk. You can hear our 8-pound cat walking aound; the people on the second floor constantly complain about the folks on the third floor walking too loudly, even though they take their shoes off at the front door and tiptoe around as much as they can.

But loosening your cable and knocking tiles off the walls -- that does seem a bit excessive.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2000

Yeah, the severity of the damage makes me think that it's a combination of an old, noisy building and a neighbor who has no idea how much noise she's making. (Those alchoves under the stairs are always awful.) I would say that you try the polite approach Saundra suggested, but be a little more explicit about the damage being done - - and blame the building; that will make your neighbor less likely to take it personally. If you just say the noise is bothering you, and she really is just walking around (albeit a little quickly and loudly -- still probably not maliciously), she might say, so what? If you say, "You probably aren't aware of it because you live upstairs, but this building is really badly constructed, so when you go upstairs, my whole ceiling turns into a sounding board and my walls shake. I know there's no way you can be perfectly silent and it's the fault of the building, but if you could just make an effort to go up the stairs kind of slowly and quietly, and maybe take your shoes off in the house, it would make things a lot easier for me." You might also invite her down to hear what it sounds like, but do it nicely -- if your building is that noisy, she could make your life hell if you make her mad.

Another suggestion: if you have uncarpeted stairs, ask your landlord to fix that situation. It helps a lot.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2000

I have no advice but do have a funny story about loud neighbors. I lived in a large apartment complex. Every Thursday and Friday night, these neighbors would come home drunk and would fight in the parking lot and slam doors. I thought they lived right below me. I was mad one morning when my alarm when off because I was exhausted from being awake from midnight to 3 am while they were fighting. I got up on my bed and jumped to the floor like 7 times and stomped around the apartment while I was getting ready. Someone came up and banged on my door and asked if I were exploding bombs. I didn't answer and thought they were pretty nervy by complaining after the night before.

A couple of days later I noticed the people that always fight in the parking lot. They lived two apartments down from me, not right under my apartment!!

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2000

Yes indeedy I do sympathize with you, but I do feel that Beth may have hit the nail on the head - older buildings with hardwood floors conduct sound like a bastard and every delicate step often causes a resounding groan from the floorboards.

About two years ago I moved out of a flat, one of those two-flat houses that there seem to be a million of around here. I was so glad to leave because my neighbors were driving me nuts, although I didn't move because of them. I'd lived in the building almost ten years, but never had problems until these people moved in.

They were a family from Afganistan via Pakistan and the main problem is that there were SO MANY of them. It was just a flat, but at various times there may have been as many as fifteen people living there. Many of them children, constantly running around and shreiking. During the summer their reletives from Texas would come to visit (for WEEKS on end) and the noise level would triple. The shreiking and trampling noises would begin at 6AM and continue until midnight.

The thing is, I was upstairs, they were downstairs and STILL to sounded like the Battle of Stalingrad.

A couple of times I complained, and the head of the household got indignant because he said I was "stomping around" above his head. So there you go.

I thought I might be overly sensitive about such things but I ran into the woman who moved into the apartment after I left and they drove her out with their racket.

There's more, but you get the idea.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2000

i also agree there is probably not much you can do, other than some of the suggestions made, and i sympathize tremendously.

however, i would like to add that (from mine and others experience ) you may find that you will get used to it over time, as you dwell on it less and less, and it becomes part of life's many hassles. if it is unbearable you will move out, if you don't want to move, you will get used to it and ignore it, and maybe someday she will move to a moose haven. human beings have an amazing ability to adapt if necessary.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2000

You should whack each of her feet with a two by four. Nobody's gonna go stomping around with sore feet. If you want to hire somebody to do the deed for you, I hear Tonya Harding can put you in touch with the right people. Good luck!

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2000

We had an early music sextet stay over last night, and when I got up this morning I tried to walk quietly down from the 3rd floor down to the kitchen to make coffee et al. I forget sometimes that my house is 80 years old; it's times like this that remind me that my floor squeaks. Anywhere you step. Every single step. Unfortunately for our guests, we're allergic to dust, so no carpeting for us, no sir!

Carmen, I have a friend who was in the reverse situation: her downstairs neighbor worked nights and apparently had ears like a Ferengi. My friend had 2 layers of padding under her thick shag carpet, never wore shoes in the apartment. She said there were libraries that were noisier than her place, and her neighbor still went nuts.

Granted, she wasn't knocking tiles off the wall...

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2000

Others are correct that it may be the building at fault. However, I think it would be worth it to mention this to her that you can hear her a lot, the building seems to exacerabate this, etc., just so she's aware of it. Who knows, maybe she can remember to walk more softly or take her shoes off in the house or whatever, enough to make a difference.

Carpeting would also make a difference.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2000

Carmen, my advice would be to say something nice as per suggestions and say it soon, otherwise, believe me, the obsession grows and grows, and one day you find yourself up there hammering on the door and yelling. I was relieved that you track your neighbour's movements with your eyes, because I thought it was just me! My moose keeps very late hours (so do I, but he still keeps me awake) and he paces too, across the bare wood floors, back and forth, back and forth. After I finally went up (at 5am) and ranted, I lay back in bed just in time to hear the floorboards creeeeeeak agonisingly overhead as he crept across the room. Yes, the floors are to blame. If things were coming off my walls I think I'd offer to swap apartments for a while so the moose could experience what my sufferings.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2000

Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond. All of the shared miseries of apartment living made me feel beter. Either it is the old "misery loves company" or just simple validation that I am not crazy when I throw my shoes at the ceiling in frustration. Now for the update. I left a short and TACTFUL note on my neighbor's door on Sunday. This morning it was back on my door with her comments "It sucks to be you". I have lived here in peace for five years. I must be overdue for a snot-nosed, BMW driving, bid-haired sorority slut for a neighbor.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2000

Oops. That would be "big" haired. The noise is truly distracting.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2000

If this woman's being deliberately problematic, then take the issue straight to the landlord. Alternately, smacking her in the face with a baseball bat may also make your point.

Tonight We Sleep In Separate Ditchesthe appalling true story of a Mafia hitman

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2000

Yep. I agree. Now that you know that she's an actual bitch and not just a clueless oaf, go to the landlord. Be sure to take a copy of her little note. You might want to look at some other places first, just to get yourself into that "hey, I can do better than this dump" mood. Because unless she gets evicted, you have a long and unpleasant road ahead of you -- she is obviously one of those fun people who enjoys things like stereo wars, etc. Those people are so tiresome.

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2000

Bagpipes. Tebetan throat-singing monks. Tribal drum practices. Barney. Or, if you want to be really creepy and stalkerish, it might work if you point out to her that you can tell wherever she is in the apartment, and you're just sitting down there... staring at the ceiling... watching...

Draw a little map of her apartment with her usual traffic pattern scribbled in in green crayon... indicate where she sits to watch TV... post this on her door.

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2000

The best advice I could give would be: "Move into an upstairs apartment." Seriously. I lived for a year in one of those creaky old hardwood-floor buildings that transmit every single friggin' sound you make, but luckily I lived on the top floor. I never had friends over, because that place was too small to entertain in, and that's probably the only thing that saved me from neighbor-cide.

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2000

Agh! Apartment noise! My last place was very noisy. Paper-thin walls. Lots of kids. Woman upstairs had a favorite song she would play over and over again. The apartment managers where a married couple who would fight in the courtyard.

Now things are fairly quiet. Although the upstairs neighbors do make some noise. For awhile, someone up there was building something. Something that took a long time to build. I was *so* tempted to put a note on their door: "Sounds like you've got quite a project going on. Making an addition to the apartment? Building a yacht? Let us know when it's finished so we can drink a toast to its finery." But, I didn't. I think someone upstairs got a keyboard for Christmas because since then I can hear someone practising some awful tune repeatedly and just loud enough to drive me insane.

- slacker

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2000

Goodness, what a bitch! I've been there, but on the reverse side. My husband and I owned a condo in Dallas, wood floors, vaulted ceilings - it was awesome, except for the neighbor downstairs. She called the cops on us because my husband was using his exercise bicycle at 5:00 pm one day. She told the cops that she thought we were sanding our floors and that was against the tenant assosiaction's manifesto (what. ever.). The cop was not happy to find it was really my hubby trying to work off last night's enchilada dinner. This was just a small part of the living hell we suffered at the hands of this woman. It got to the point that we would look out the window of our front door and see it was her and just not answer it anymore. I think she wanted us to fly around in our condo... argh, a lot of left over agression... moving on.

She made our life miserable but we tiptoed all over the place, didn't flush the toilet at night (yeech), bought rugs, and more or less changed our entire lives around to make this bitch happy. We eventually moved across country, only partly to get away from her.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is, find out if it is the building and if it isn't, you have every right to complain!

Best of luck.

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2000

I remember one time I lived downtown by myself and had another single female living in the apartment nextdoor to mine... aparently my bathroom wall was also her bedrom wall. I didn't know this. I had one of those Anne Geddes naked baby pictures in my bathroom. One night around 2 am, I had a couple of noisy guys over, and somehow they both ended up in my bathroom laughing hysterically over the naked baby on the wall. (No, really, that was it.) The next morning, my neighbor came over and jokingly said, "you must have one funny baby in your bathroom." After figuring out what she meant, I realized that it was the most tactful way of telling me that we were noisy bastards. She then went on to explain that her bedroom was there, etc... and she thought it was funny but hopefully I could keep people from laughing at my baby in the future. She was a great neighbor.

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2000

Hey I have the *reverse* problem!

Until a couple of days ago I had nothing to contribute to this thread, but recently the wierdest thing happened. I live on the top floor of my building, and I'm quiet. I mean, first off I'm hardly home, secondly, I don't even weight 90 pounds and thanks to my mother yelling at me as a kid, I no longer jam my heals into the floor when I walk.

Anyway - at about 9:30 pm, on a weeknight, a friend was helping me put one of those IKEA Billy bookcases together. He hammered on the pegs -mmmm twice? - and the person downstairs was already there slamming on the ceiling.

We immediately lifted the board and supported it on our legs while hammering in the other pegs... but I mean, after two hammers, you're already going crazy? I thought that was a *little* much. And I'm thinkin', because of the instant response, it's not like they were in bed or anything (the apts. are so small, and the same layout, so I know for a fact that their living room is directly under my living room).

Also, a few weeks before that, I had friends over, pretty late. They had just walked in the door, and one of them tripped over a box (I had barely moved in and was just showing them the apt.) and stumbled a bit. Now because we were talking, only one person thought they heard something, and I wasn't sure if someone actually *had* banged on the ceiling. Of course now I'm sure they did.

It just strikes me as odd to get pissed at a couple of footsteps and two hammer bangs. I have a friend two floors down (directly under this person) and hang out there a lot. You can't hear people walking at all, so I'm sure it's not really loud. Also another friend on the other side of the building - and you can't hear anything at all. Do I just have a overly-sensitive person downstairs? Or is *my* floor crappy?

I'm not quite sure how to deal with this one!

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2000

Sorry to hear about that noise. My best suggestion is to get an upstairs appartment next time! I used to live in a downstairs apartment, and the lady upstairs had an obsession with vacuume cleaning. Several times a day. As bad as this was I was very happy that I didn't live under the lady who had the little 5 year old boy with a new pair of cowboy boots, he did not know how to walk softly, or else, he really liked hearing the sound of his feet pounding against the ground that he walked on! Good luck. Oh, I almost forgot about the basement apartment that I could look up the floor grate into the apartment above. It was occupied by D.J. the D.J.. D.J belonged to a country western band, and aparently at some point he told them that they could come on over to his place to practice. It was not good. I came home to my boyfriend blairing his speakers up at the ceiling.... actually, he had left the house. It wasn't untill his return that I was given an explanation for what I came home to. By the way, I don't recommend this as a solution. Try to remain on good terms with your neighbors!

-- Anonymous, March 30, 2000

I've had obnoxious neighbors for 30 years, everywhere in SF that I have lived - under me, over me, next door to me, you name it.

I have no solutions other than getting rich and moving far away from other human beings in a sound-proofed dwelling of some kind.

Unlikely to happen.

But noise pollution at home truly has been the bane of my existence for years, and it's a wonder I can still hold down a job and have not murdered anyone.

-- Anonymous, March 30, 2000

I have lived in two different "togetherments" and in both cases had a moose above me. My first featured a couple that had knockdown drag out fights every weekend. One night some friends of mine came over to visit. One happened to be on crutches. He leaned them up against the wall, and at one point they fell down. That was the only loud noise we made. (My 1 1/2 year old was in bed sleeping) Obviously it was enough, because shortly after, a policeman showed up at my door. He was confused because the report he got said loud music and fights. He kept asking if we were sure there wasn't another apartment on the ground floor. The two moose eventually split up, but by then I had transferred to a different college and moved.

-- Anonymous, March 30, 2000

I have lived in two different "togetherments" and in both cases had a moose above me. My first featured a couple that had knockdown drag out fights every weekend. One night some friends of mine came over to visit. One happened to be on crutches. He leaned them up against the wall, and at one point they fell down. That was the only loud noise we made. (My 1 1/2 year old was in bed sleeping) Obviously it was enough, because shortly after, a policeman showed up at my door. He was confused because the report he got said loud music and fights. He kept asking if we were sure there wasn't another gro apartment on the ground floor. The two moose eventually split up, but by then I had transferred to a different college and moved. My second place had a very high turnover rate for tenants. The first moose were a mother that liked to exercise with a small trampoline and her 2 year old daughter. The 2 year old would jump off the kitchen chairs. Each time, it would kill the light bulbs in my dining room chandelier. She also used to wake up at three in the morning and sing "Jesus Loves Me" on her Mr. Microphone. They moved and we got the Party Moose. Wild parties with people jumping off the balcony. Then we got the Hooker Moose. She scared my son all the time because she was very vocal during sex, but loved to have her windows open. Then we had the ? Moose. Either everyone that entered the apartment got sick, or they were really Drug Dealer Moose. Then we moved. Moose are everywhere!

-- Anonymous, March 30, 2000

I've got to weigh in to disagree with the conclusion that the "moose" is necessarily a total bitch because she told Carmen "it sucks to be you." Granted, it would have been nice had she responded more politely. But although I think the polite note asking her to walk softer was certainly worth a try, and an okay idea, I also think that the average person would not respond particularly nicely to even a polite note telling her to walk quieter.

This situation happened to me once. I was apparently the heavy walker. First, the girl downstairs came up to complain about my typing that I was doing in the bedroom to make extra money (this was about 15 years ago). I had no idea that there was a vibration or that she could hear me typing, so I was glad to move my typing equipment to the kitchen even though it was inconvenient. Then about a week later she came back up with the second complaint that I was walking too hard and could I please quieten it down! I just kind of looked at her but must admit that the thought "it sucks to be you," or worse, went through my mind. The very next day she came up to apologize to me and said that she was just on edge and that I had a right to walk in my own apartment. So we parted on good terms and there were no more complaints.

As far as this woman getting evicted for walking -- well, I don't think so! Can you imagine a landlord telling a tenant, "Sorry, you're walking too hard, plus you were really rude to your neighbor, so you're out of here." I think you have to do worse than be a moose, or a bitch, to be evicted.

And another thought: I'm sure Carmen is telling the absolute truth about this situation. But suppose in another situation a nasty renter, out of spite, just claims that their neighbor is walking too hard when she's really just walking normally. It would be pure hell to be harangued for just walking normally in your apartment, wouldn't it?

I think this is probably one of those unfortunate situations where you're stuck unless the walking is truly outside the bounds of reasonableness. Those of us who choose to or have to live in close proximity with others are so often faced with worse situations than those, and sometimes the only thing you can do is to move.

-- Anonymous, March 31, 2000

The only reason I don't agree with you 100% on this, Jane, is that Carmen said the upstairs tenant was knocking tiles off the walls. Carmen is going to have to do something to let the landlord know that she didn't cause that damage. The other thing that occurred to me after my initial response is that it sounds like Carmen lived there first; presumably if the previous tenants didn't knock tiles off the walls, then maybe this woman is stomping around a little more loudly than necessary.

But yeah, when my downstairs neighbor used to complain about the noise our cat made running across the floor, my response was more or less a telepathic version of "sucks to be you."

-- Anonymous, March 31, 2000

Heh -- well we liveon the middle floor of our building and it's all cinder-block construction, which means that the _only_ thing that we ever hear is the toilet flushing, the pipes thrumming when the showers are on or the garbage disposal in our neighbor's kitchen. But even then it's only a very vague echo.

I was very happy with the noise levels here, on average, except for the stupid people who would pull up into the parking lot with their stereos blaring at 2am. That's just rude, since all of the apartments look out onto the lot and the spaces are _right_ underneath the windows, so if you have them open, it's like having their stereo in your room.

However, a few months ago, our nice quiet polite downstairs neighbors moved out and this obnoxious family moved in.

The wife plays music all day, starting when her kids get up in the morning around 6 or 7am, until midnight or so and she pumps it up so loud that our windows shake.

We went down three or four times to complain and got very little response from them. Apparently the wife was quite rude to Sabs and refused to turn it down, let alone off, even though it was quite early in the morning.

Now, we actually live in a condo, and there are by-laws governing noise. IE you're not allowed to play music loudly, run your appliances or vacuum before 8am or after 10pm. I think one of our other neighbors finally told her that they would get her kicked out if she didn't quieten down and after that it got better, though I still here her backbeat creep through thr floor at around 9am.

The other problem we had with them, had to do with their heating. Now granted, they were coming from a country with a warm climate, so it must have seemed cold to them here in Virginia, but they had their heat pumped up so high that you couldn't see in the windows of their apartment. Of course, this heated up our floors and drifted through into our vents, making our apartment almost unbearably warm this winter and spring, despite the fact that we had the heat _off_ altogether.

So. Now that we're moving, I'm getting a house dammit.

-- Anonymous, March 31, 2000

Beth is right on the money. I have lived in this apartment for five years. I have had five different neighbors. I never once complained to the other neighbors when they were loud, when I could hear their footsteps or were dragging furniture across the floor. I figured I probably did some things that annoyed them on occassion as well, so it was a live and let live kind of thing. But this woman is a spoiled brat. She is intentionally stomping up the stairs, dropping gawd knows what on the floor at 2:30 am, then laughing hysterically. Her latest gift to me is parking her Jeep Cherokee so close to my car (I drive a Mazda MX6) that I have to enter on the passenger side and crawl to the driver's side of the car. I contacted the landlord. He said to call the police and report her as a nuisance. I will not waste the Dallas Police Department's time with such a lame request. My lease is up in September and I am making arrangements to move by then. Thanks to all of you. The suggestions on how to take out Miss Moose made me smile. And especially a great big thanks to Beth for letting me use her forum for such a personal issue. You guys are the best.

-- Anonymous, March 31, 2000

Wait, wait, wait. Texas leases don't have a "quiet enjoyment" clause? Eesh. Your landlord is supposed to keep order, not tell you to call the police. At least in my neck of the woods.

Eh, it's probably not worth it to go talk to a lawyer or try to break your lease; your best bet probably is to just hang in there until September. But still, your landlord is a weenie.

-- Anonymous, March 31, 2000

Is the building under strata? If so you should complain to the strata association, and they will enforce the strata rules, which invariably include a rule about not interfering with others' quiet enjoyment of their suites.

People can easily be evicted for making too much noise. It's usually in the lease or rental agreement that they will follow all sorts of rules (if there is strata then the renter must follow all strata rules). Failure to follow the rules can result in eviction.

If it's non-strata (ie, all one owner), it is much harder to get action if the owner is unsympathetic. You might want to see if there isn't a way you can break your lease, based on the unbearable noise levels.

-- Anonymous, March 31, 2000