http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002ofd Read it, if you are intelligent enough, to persue. Another:http://www.sonic.net/~kryptox/politics/carton.htm and this: http://www.inter-view.net/~sherrell/bomb.htm

-- Truth Seeker (for@nothers.com), March 24, 2000

Answers

Bears/bares. I think I have messed up the correct form. Oh well, so sue me.

-- Truth Seeker (for@nothers.com), March 24, 2000.

l ink one

link two

link three

that is the correct spelling in the title.

-- hope the links work (just@helpin.hand), March 24, 2000.

Truth Seeker,

("bears repeating") is correct.

I thought of posting my anti-fluoridation links on that thread, but it seemed like overkill.

It was an excellent discussion, very enjoyable to follow, as it progressed, between people mostly willing to keep their biases in the background while they explored not just the topic, but more interestingly, their thinking ABOUT the topic. It almost didn't matter what the topic was, though it happens to be one that interests me.

Anyway here is a link to that thread, http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002ofd

And, now that you have so serendipitously provided the opportunity, here come da links:

LIST OF FLUORIDATION / ANTI-FLUORIDATION SITES

Gary Null, Ph.D.  Information and a plan for action to stop fluoridation http://www.garynull.com/issues/fluoride/fluorideactionfile.htm

Preventive Dental Health Association, David Kennedy, D.D.S.  The Dangers of Fluoridation & Alternatives to Fluoride http://emporium. turnpike.net/p/pdha/health.htm

Elke Babiuk  Fluoride: Protected Pollutant or Panacea? (photos of fluorosis and lots of abstracts) http://www.cadvisio n.com/fluoride/index.htm

The Fluoride Stop, by Andreas Schuld (Andreas is especially expert about fluoride/thyroid effects) http://www.bruha.com/fluoride

Stop Fluoridation U.S.A., by Darlene Sherrill (Lots of diverse stuff) http://www.rvi.net/~fluoride

Scholarly Journal of the International Society for Fluoride Research http://www.fluoride-j ournal.com/index.htm

Fluorides & Fluoridation, Leading-Edge Research Group, by Val Verlerian (Many scanned documents; probably the biggest site.) http://www.trufax .org/fluoride/fluorides.html

Fluoride Issues  Dan Montgomery (Includes current news) http://www.sonic.net /~kryptox/fluoride.htm

America Overdosed on Fluoride  Lynn Landes (Includes e-mail correspondence inwhich an ADA spokesperson refutes news reports that non-fluoridated bottled water causes cavities, and what you can do to ban fluoride and educate others.) http://www .zerowasteamerica.org/fluorideoverdose.htm

Ellie Rudolphs site (Find out if your Pennsylvania town or city water is fluoridated.) http://www.pen web.org/issues/fluoride/index.html

The Dangers of Fluoride & Fluoridation, by Michael Schacter, M.D. http://www.healthy.net/library/articles/schacter/fluoride.n.htm

The Toxic Effects of Fluoride (Be aware that they are selling a fluoride removal system.) http://www.wholywater.c om/fluoride.html

Fluoridation Debate (Environmental Health Perspectives, Volume 105, Number 11, November 1997) http:/ /ehpnet1.niehs.nih.gov/docs/1997/105-11/forum.html

Fluoridation: The Overdosing of America  Fact or Fiction? (Slides by Gerald H. Smith, D.D.S.) http://www.icnr.com/Fluor idePres.html

Fluoridation for Dummies  Oregon Citizens for Safe Water http ://www.greatseal.com/writer/youessay/fluoridation.html

An Association of state and local websites: STOP Fluoridation of North Hollywood, California http://surf.to/stopfluoride

Darryl W. Roundy, D.C.  Fluoride Research http://www.atlaschi ro.com/fluorideresch.htm

Fluoride: Commie Plot or Capitalist Ploy, by Joel Griffiths, investigative reporter http://www.scru z.net/~paul/issues/Fluoride.html

Fluoride:Wide Range of Serious Health Problems, by Shirley Lipschutz-Robinson http://ww w.geocities.com/hotsprings/1158/fluoride.htm

Fluoride: Dentistrys Boondoggle, by Joyal Taylor, D.D.S. http://www.healthy.net/hwlibraryarticles/dentistry/envchap3.htm

Fluoride  Friend or Fraud, Liberty Australia http://www.webaxs.net/ ~noel/fluoride.htm

Fluoride Controversy, the Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients http://www.tldp.com/fluoride.h tm

Citizens for Safe Drinking Water (Mountainview, California) http://www.nofluoride.com

Fluoridated Toothpastes must now be labeled POISON, by Charlotte Gerson "http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Enterprises/8669/flpoison.html

Fluoride: Public Health Goal http://www.saveteeth.org./i ndex.htm

Did Government Approve Citizens as Toxic Waste Sites? http://www.thewinds.org/inde x.html (search site for fluoride)

Scientific Facts on the Biological Effects of Fluorides http://www.all-natural .com/fleffect.html

California Lawsuit (L.A. Citizens for Safe Drinking Water) http://home.ear thlink.net/~dcragoe/LA_legal.htm

Fluoridation Fluoride Toxic Chemicals In Your Water http://www.holisticmed.com/ fluoride

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), March 24, 2000.

Say, Deb, do you know where someone could go to on the web for more information?

LOL

-- Your fingers probably hurt (palmolive@goodfor.whatails), March 24, 2000.

LOL - Bookmarks and mailing lists make quick work of compiling links.

Sorry about the NWO conspiracy theory links, but it wouldn't be complete without them would it? After all TimeBomb 2000 have a reputation to maintain.

P.S. ...And I hate to do this, but it always pays to visit http://www.quackwatch.com to (1) see what you're up against, (2) have a good laugh, OR for all I know ... (3) convince you that it's all a bunch of hooey, cuz after Y2k who really knows???? My fingers don't hurt, by my head hurts to look at it! No mere mortal can possibly read all this stuff. but enjoy it anyway :)


-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), March 24, 2000.

The question remains,Fluoride or not. You decide. And we won"t even go into the arena of you sitting in traffic , and breathing the toxic emissions, of your neighbor vehicle. But let a Cigarette smoker appear on your horizen, and you get all upset. Why? Because it is a human effort, to combine all likes, into a small effort, it has been so, for many ages.

-- Truth Seeker (for@nother.com), March 24, 2000.

I haven't drunk tap water in years and don't use a flouride toothpaste. I know you can get too much flouride, even from brushing with the commercial toothpastes.

-- Mara (MW@aol.com), March 25, 2000.

Truth Seeker,

"Because it is a human effort, to combine all likes, into a small effort, it has been so, for many ages."

Would you flesh out your response a little more, please?

Did you read my posts or did you just see the "Quackwatch" and hit "Contribute an Answer"?

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), March 25, 2000.

Earth Island Journal has been writing about the dangers of flouridation for years, and they have a website. Several dentists have contributed their research to the articles.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 25, 2000.

A lot of Englishmen don't have flouride, and have the poor dentition to prove it ;-)

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 25, 2000.

Am I the only person who smiles when they read this thread, thinking of Stanley Kubrick's masterpiece "Dr Strangelove" ???

I cant get the image out of my head of Sterling Hayden as "USAF Commander Jack D Ripper" chewing that cigar and explaining to Peter Sellers how "commie flouridation" is contaminating our "precious bod'ly fluids".

The "spirit of Ripper" lives on.

"Now come on Jack . . give me the gun . . theres a good chap"

W

*PS - Not ALL English people have bad teeth . . thats like saying all Americans wear cowboy hats and spit chewing tobacco juice on the floor. And we do have water flouridation (and have had for 25+ years) and 99% of people also use flouride toothpaste. (I know you were joking, I just wanted to make that point . . for the sake of accuracy)

:-)

-- w0lv3r1n3 (w0lv3r1n3@yahoo.com), March 25, 2000.

I remember reading somewhere that fluoride (a deadly poison) damages the brain is subtle ways that make a person more docile and likely to follow orders. Combined with all the brainwashing on TV, it allows "robotization" of a large population relatively quickly. It seems to neutralize their will to resist.

There was recently a battle over whether to begin fluoridating the water in a city in Silicon Valley where I used to live. Many local citizens opposed it, but the pro-fluoride forces brought in the "big gun" experts from all over and combined with a media blitz, the measure narrowly passed. Yet another reason I left Kalifornia.

A friend of mine asked the questions, who are the interests behind this that are providing all the financing, and what is their real motivation? If it works so well, why do dentists want to reduce their business? If people want to use fluoride, can't they get enough in their regular toothpaste? If not, prescription higher-strength products are available.

Is it the (nearly) invisible hand of the NWO?

I'm curious about the ratio of Doomers to Polleys who resist or acquiesce to fluoridation. My guess is that Doomers would tend to resist it, while Polleys would either accept or support it. I have drunk filtered water for years, ever since fluoridation became popular.

Count me: Doomer (Reformed) - NO FLUORIDE

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), March 25, 2000.

w0lv3r1n3 -

:-) Ah Dr. Strangelove one of my favorite movies...

However, making this fluoridation issue a commie/NWO plot is a way to get a few laughs and then dismiss the whole issue as nothing. I don't like the propaganda/hysterical tone in some of those web sites, either, just because I don't like to think that way (e.g. "the sheeple can't see it because it's being covered up" - saw too much of that in the Y2k muck). I would rather take only what I CAN see, and work from there.

These questions are legitimate ones:

"...Who are the interests behind this that are providing all the financing, and what is their real motivation? If it works so well, why do dentists want to reduce their business? If people want to use fluoride, can't they get enough in their regular toothpaste? If not, prescription higher-strength products are available...."

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), March 25, 2000.

I don't know for sure, but from my readings of these sites, digging beneath the propaganda where possible, it's not unreasonable to suppose that the policy to fluoridate the water supply could come from something as simple as some flawed research which doesn't really show much benefit (and as we are finding out, happens to show some harm, even though harm wasn't intended - giving the benefit of the doubt) and is backed by commercial interests as a way of getting rid of an agricultural waste product - you would not need to invoke any NWO conspiracy, to explain something like that. A reasonable person would still want to try to get it stopped, though.

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), March 25, 2000.

Good God, I am tired, but I get an interested Human response, so I gotta go hunt the old links again. I did not invent nor write the link. You have to keep your mind open. Pardon me, while I go on the search, hopefully, it won't take long. http://www.sonic.net/~kryptox/politics/carton.htm http://www.inter-view.net/~sherrell/bomb.htm http://www.sightings.com/health3/dcoke.htm http://www.cco.net/~trufax/menu/chem.html http://www.dorway.com/jcohen.html http://www.tiac.net/users/mgold/aspartame/embalm.txt

http://www.dorway.com./

-- Truth Seeker (for@nother.com), March 26, 2000.

Flash:

It all boils down to polly versus doomer AGAIN?

So fluoride makes folks more passive and meat makes folks more aggressive, and beer is better than milk [at least with pizza], and tomatoes are breeding with fish. Is that a fair summary of this thread?

I drink fluoridated water, milk, and beer. I eat meat, chicken, fish, tomatoes, spinach, pasta, potatoes, lettuce, corn on the cob, nuts, and tons of other types of foods. Of my 3 kids, 1 drinks fluoridated water. The other 2 don't like the taste. They all drink milk, and the kid who will be 21 in 3 days drinks beer. [I found it in the trunk of her car, so I KNOW.] The kids don't care much for meat, fish, or anything that once had eyes. [We try to eat the potatoes before they grow eyes.] One kid won't eat tomatoes. Do you suppose he knows about the fish?

Different people benefit from different diets. All the studies in the world don't change this. Some folks are allergic to one thing, while others are allergic to another. Young children [if offered a healthy diet] will selectively eat what their bodies need and reject what their bodies can't incorporate. This "natural" selective process, by design, seems to develops tastes for foods that "serve the body well." If offered an unhealthy diet, or forced to eat foods that are seen as undesirable, this "natural" selective process is thwarted.

These are MY opinions on this one. It seems that every other year or so SOMEONE links SOMETHING to maladies of some sort. Remember when coffee and peanut butter were linked to cancer?

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 26, 2000.

Flash:

I think I combined this thread with the one about another time bomb in my mind before my response. Sorry for the confusion.

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 26, 2000.

Hi Anita,

I was just curious if there might be any correlation between whether a person is/was a Polly or a Doomer and their opinion on Fluoridation of the water supply. This was meant to be a sincere question. My guess is that opponents of Fluoridation might also tend to be Doomers because I also suspect that Doomers tend to be more suspicious of government, big business, and authority in general. This might really not turn out to be the case, it's just a hypothesis.

I'm with you and your kids on drinking beer, eating peanut butter, and lots of other fun things (including twinkies and ding-dongs). But, I don't like the idea of BSE in milk, and other synthesized hormones and substances in our food. The milk that you are drinking today isn't the same as when you and I were growing up! Regarding peanut butter (which I love), it does contain detectable amounts of Aflatoxin, which is carcinoginic. Also, doesn't decaffinated coffee contains small amounts of methylene chloride which isn't good for us? We can choose whether or not we want to ingest these substances, but what about the local water supply? Shouldn't the decision whether or not to ingest sodium fluoride be a matter of free choice?

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), March 26, 2000.

Flash:

It IS free choice. If you don't like the taste, don't drink it. Consider the opposite angle: What if you WANTED fluoridated water because you'd read about all the benefits and it WASN'T provided via the tap? How much might you pay for THAT in a store? Would you lobby to have fluoride ADDED to the tap water?

The argument IS much like Y2k was, you know. A small number of folks see ONE side and the majority of folks see the other side. The small number of folks don't understand how the majority of folks can't see what THEY see.

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 26, 2000.

Anita,

I usually agree with you, but not on your last statement. I don't see it as being a small number of people vs a larger number at all. My own observations of several of fluoride/anti-fluoride election battles has been that they were all very close, and that the ones which ended up pro-fluoridation were only won after the introduction of large amounts of money and numbers of outside "experts" at the last minute. If not for this, most all would have been decided against fluoridation.

I can't agree with the introduction of a toxic substance into something as basic to survival as the local water supply. The government and ADA can make fluoride toothpaste free to anyone who can't afford it if they so wish.

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), March 26, 2000.

You're right, Flash. I haven't really paid attention to these fluoride "battles" through the years. One must have a strong opinion on one side or the other of an issue to NOTICE, and I don't have a strong opinion regarding fluoride in the water, nor do I know anyone IRL who does. I've not once in my life encountered ANYONE who suggested that fluoride was a problem. I know people who have water filters, and I know people who find tap water distasteful, but if I know folks with a strong opinion on fluoride, they certainly haven't mentioned it. I DO have an internet acquaintance whose family can't tolerate chlorine, nor lots of other things. She even purchases organic shampoo! They have a well on their land, so fluoride and chlorine aren't issues.

How do we define the majority versus the minority? *I* define the majority as folks I know and meet IRL. That's a very subjective definition, but it gives me a general "feel" towards what folks view as important. I know several folks who choose not to eat meat, or anything that once had eyes. I know several folks who choose not to use insecticides, choose to recycle, choose to limit family size, choose to boycott nuclear sites or landfills, etc., but not ONE who is concerned about fluoride. I suppose that's why I feel the majority approves of fluoride in the water.

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 26, 2000.