Is it just my imagination or are they calling the german nazi's christian?

"I assure the Jewish people that the Catholic Church is deeply saddened by the hatred, acts of persecution and displays of anti-Semitism directed against the Jews by Christians at any time and in any place," the pope said during a solemn ceremony in the Yad Vashem's darkened Hall of Remembrances."

http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/03/23/pope.visit.02/index.html

-- Blue Imene Hellow (MrBlue@work.com), March 23, 2000

Answers

Just yer imagination. The pope is refering to the indifference of the Catholic church to the holocaust whilest it was occuring.

-- kritter (kritter@adelphia.net), March 23, 2000.

Most of the Nazi's WERE Christian, including Hitler. In fact, one of the first things Hitler did when he came to power was to enforce school prayer across Germany. Here's a few of Hitler's words about his religion.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: *by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.*" -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

"Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time." -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

"..we must pray to the Almighty not to refuse His blessing to this change and not to abandon our people in the times to come." -Hitler recalling a priest's speech after the defeat of WWI

""I'll put an end to the idea that a women's body belongs to her . Christian ideals demand that the practice of abortion shall be exterminated with a strong hand." - Adolf Hitler, 1933 Decree for the German People

-- For your information (historian@historychannel.com), March 23, 2000.

Naah, I dont buy it. Maybe try and providing a link to the above said decree. It would be my guess that he didnt speak it using English.

What is the German word for christian anyways?

-- Blue I. Hellow (MrBlue@work.com), March 23, 2000.

Here ya' go. All links are annotated, so if you really want to dig, and I suggest you do, check out the reference material. It will surprise you.

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter." Adolf Hitler, 1922, My New Order

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/sn-hitler.html

"HITLER AIMS BLOW AT 'GODLESS' MOVE" Article from The Lansing State Journal, 2/23/33. The entire article can be found here:

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/unknown/hitler.html

""The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine." -Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12

More material from Mein Kampf can be found here:

http://www.continet.com/miller4/hitler.htm

"We want honestly to earn the resurrection of our people through our industry, our perseverance, our will. We ask not of the Almighty 'Lord, make us free'!-- we want to be active, to work, to agree together as brothers, to strive in rivalry with one another to bring about the hour when we can come before Him and when we may ask of Him: 'Lord, Thou seest that we have transformed ourselves, the German people is not longer the people of dishonour, of shame, of war within itself, of faintheartedness and little faith: no, Lord, the German people has become strong again in spirit, strong in will, strong in endurance, strong to bear all sacrifices.' 'Lord, we will not let Thee go: bless now our fight for our freedom; the fight we wage for our German people and Fatherland.' -Adolf Hitler, giving prayer in a speech on May Day 1933 "

This and other Christian sentiments from Hitler's speeches can be found at this site:

http://members.icanect.net/~zardoz/speeches.htm

Here are photographs of Nazis in Christian worship:

http://members.icanect.net/~zardoz/nazis.htm

There's plenty of evidence that Hitler was a Christian, or at least a reasonable facsimile thereof. Would you like more?

-- For your Information (historian@historychannel.com), March 23, 2000.

Re the Crusaders who butchered Moslems and Jews in the Middle Ages: Were they Christians?

Re the Spanish Inquisitors who burned Jews who wouldn't convert to Catholicism: Were they Christians?

Just curious.

-- (.@...), March 23, 2000.

There was once a website called "Why Christians Suck," which had all kinds of facts about the evil deeds that Christians committed, and commit in the name of God, but when I went to my Favorites and tried to open it, I couldn't.

But the definitive work, written by a Christian, is "A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom" by A. D. White, co-founder and first president of Cornell University.

Also, I found this on the web, "Hitler Was NOT An Atheist," by John P.Murphy.

My personal gripe with all religion, is how it set back science hundreds of years. The church burned and imprisoned many great scientists and astronomers because they couldn't bear to admit that the scientists were right (earth is round), and that the church was wrong. (Earth moves around sun, not vice versa.)

Even in the l980's the Catholic Church tried to have books on Aids repressed due to exposure of gay priests.

The Protestants, including Luther and Calvin, condenmed Aristotle, Socrates & Servetus, and even had Servetus burned alive and inflicted various and numerous tortures on all who disagreed with their particular brand of dogma, & banned their writings.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 23, 2000.

It seems silly to me to decide if Hitler was a Christian based on quotes from his speeches.

Hitler, whatever else he was, was a politician. Of course he liked to portray himself as in tight with God and on the side of glory. That comes in second, just behind wrapping oneself in the flag, as a politician's favorite public posture.

Seems to me I recall a little saying along the lines of "by their fruits you shall know them...".

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@Ims.com), March 23, 2000.

It is true that everything bad today is being identified with the Christian. Anyone can claim to be a Christian. So what! Look instead at what the self professing Chrisitan does. Hitler was a satanist, a member of the Thule Society and the first famous pagan/environmentalist of the century. He established protective measures for the Timber Wolf.

Perhaps you should find out first what a true Chrisitian is before you start identifying The Christian with every sort of evil. nancy

-- NH (new@mindspring.com), March 23, 2000.

In my experience, what Gilda and FYI say is correct; if oversimplified. In the end, the party was developing a German church; which you probably wouldn't recognize as Christian. I am also oversimplifying years of reading. This is no place for a detailed analysis of the church in Germany. Religion is handled on the EZ board in Bible study classes.

Unfortunately, the Pope hasn't read the statement by Bob Jones. He and B. Young aren't Christians. It was interesting; BJU announced that they were returning this statement to their Web site. They must have really buried it. I don't have time to find it.

Best wishes,,

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), March 23, 2000.

"Hitler, whatever else he was, was a politician. Of course he liked to portray himself as in tight with God and on the side of glory. That comes in second, just behind wrapping oneself in the flag, as a politician's favorite public posture."

Interesting you should say that. Hitler outlawed abortion, atheism, homosexuality, and pornography claiming that they went against Biblical law. He implemented school prayer, and in his public and private writings regularly claimed Jesus Christ as his personal saviour. Additionally, Hitler attended Church services whenever possible, and insisted that his highranking officers and advisors do the same.

This is very odd behaviour for someone who isn't actually a Christian, isn't it? "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck..."

Sounds like an

-- For your information (historian@historychannel.com), March 23, 2000.

FYI referred to Mein Kampf You should read it and come to your own conclusions. You can read it either in English or German. Makes no difference. You feel your life is speeding by at a NASCAR rate. In my experience, this will make it feel like it is lasting through eternity. Not one of my favorite reads in either language.

Best wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), March 23, 2000.

The devil works most effectively by taking a full lie and adding a drop of truth to make it palatable. Just enough truth to make people believe the full lie.

Because Hitler or anyone else goes to Church doesn't make them a Chrisitian. If that's so, then as Garrison Keillor said, sitting in your garage makes you a car.

nancy

-- NH (new@mindspring.com), March 23, 2000.

Nancy-

I think it's interesting that you continue to claim that Hitler wasn't a Christian in the face of evidence to the contrary. I've noticed that Christians always question the authenticity of Christians they themselves disagree with. However, if it comforts you to believe that Hitler wasn't a Christian, then so be it. But remember this; if Adolf Hitler were running for president today, he would have a virtual lock on the Christian vote. He was a charismatic leader who publicly embraced Christianity and who's platform was an almost eerie foreshadowing of the Christian Coalitions (i.e., pro-life, pro school prayer, anti gay, anti free speech, pro family values). Were it not for his terrible anti- semitism (which I am in no way defending), you yourself might be tempted to vote for him.

-- For your information (historian@historychannel.com), March 23, 2000.

"Because Hitler or anyone else goes to Church doesn't make them a Chrisitian."

You got that right. Clinton goes to church every week, bible in hand.

-- I'll take (an.ethical@theist.anytime), March 23, 2000.

For Your Information, you are very confused. A Christian is identified by the fruit of their works. Evil works = Satanism, no matter how many god words are used or Christian ideals subverted.

Figures compiled indicate approximately 11 to 12 million people were sent to Hitler's camps.It has been reported that six to seven million of those people were Jews. Who do you suppose those other 5 or 6 million people were? Oh you get rid of the political dissidents, commies, gypsys, ethnic types and useless eaters and who's left? FYI, it's the Christians.

Yes, this fact is glossed over completely today. Hitler targeted the Jews. And when he finished with them he was going to complete the mission by eliminating the Christians. The real Christians. The one's who hid Jews in Nazi Germany----don't hear much about them either. There was quite a network of Christians in Germany running an underground railroad to get Jews to safety. The Germans today know this but the stories just don't get out to the mainstream.

At the end of the war Hitler had tons of zyclonB (sp?) sent to Auschwitz. Enough to exterminate approximately 10 million people. Why did he do this? There were just under a million Jews in Europe at that time, if that many. Exactly who was Hitler planning to use that gas on FYI? That's right. The Christians he was going to round up. The real Christians.

nancy

-- NH (new@mindspring.com), March 24, 2000.

Getting back to the question, "Was Hitler a Christian?"

Only he and God would know the very truth of the matter.

Going to church, and doing things in his name donot automatically convey Christiandom on anyone.

It is in the heart. The mind. The soul. God knew. God knows.

Many people go to church regularly now. There are those that are known as hypocrites. They walk the walk, talk the talk, but in their soul they cannot hide from God.

So, while you can read of all that Hitler did in the name and glory of God, you cannot know for certain whether he was a Christian or a hypocrite. Only God knows. And it is not up to us to judge, but Him.

-- Sermon topic "Hypocrite?" (iheard@church.asachild), March 24, 2000.

HITLER was an occultist. NOT A CHRISTIAN. I can hardly wait until all the Christians "just disappear" and the folks who blame everything on Christians can enjoy each other's company. I hope you get the opportunity in the next few decades.

I just wish the pope would go home. This old man who is making the journey of his lifetime has been opening his mouth the whole time and saying unbelievable things that are going to wreak havoc for a long time to come in the middle east. If I didn't know better, I would swear he had been brainwashed by the liberal, socialist, globalists. I am not anti-catholic either. I just don't happen to believe in the pope's role as speaker for the TRUE CHRISTIAN CHURCH. The true church is no denom and requires no human leader.

-- tt (cuddluppy@aol.com), March 24, 2000.

For your information--you are sadly misinformed as one who is looking at something spiritual with earthly eyes. A "true Christian" is a person who knows Jesus Christ as his/her personal savior and who believes that Christ has attoned for his/her sin. A "true Christian" has a living relationship (in real time) with God. There are, however, Christians at very different levels of spiritual maturity.

Lots of people go to church but that doesn't make them a Christian. Just like my going to the Democratic HQ doesn't necessarily make me a Democrat. Only God can tell for sure who the real ones are but he gave us a hint as to how we could spot "real Christians" and the phonies -- by the fruits evident in their lives. IT would appear from Hitler's life that he was NOT A CHRISTIAN since he did perform various occultic practices and had no obvious regard for the commands of GOD.

-- tt (cuddluppy@aol.com), March 24, 2000.

Nancy, you said, "At the end of the war Hitler had tons of zyclonB (sp?) sent to Auschwitz. Enough to exterminate approximately 10 million people. Why did he do this? There were just under a million Jews in Europe at that time, if that many. Exactly who was Hitler planning to use that gas on FYI? That's right. The Christians he was going to round up. The real Christians."

I'd like to see a citation. First off, on the amount of ZyklonB sent to Auschwitz at the end of the war, secondly on the number of Jews who were alive in Eurpore at the end of the war. According to the Simon Wiesenthal Center, and Yad Vashem, there were over four million jews scattered throughout Europe at the end of the war. The estimated Jewish European population before the Holocaust was between 10 and 12 million, an estimated 2 million emigrated. I think it's telling that you paint the alleged 10 million non-Jews as "real Christians" without any evidence at all, and yet in the face of evidence of Hitler's Christianity, your mind is firmly shut.

By all accounts, Hitler planned the desctruction of the Jews, but also murdered Gypsies, Communists, abortionists, atheists, gays and lesbians, and pretty much anyone who disagreed with him. There is no evidence that Hitler planned to destroy Christians in any significant numbers simply because of their faith, however, he would certainly have moved for their execution if they fell into another group as well.

Hitler believed very strongly that the work he was doing was for the Lord. He believed that Judaism was abhorrent to God, along with such things as abortion and pornography. Hitler, like Cotton Mather, Torquemada, and other infamos Christians, believed that he was acting as God's insturment on earth out of pious faith.

-- For your information (historian@historychannel.com), March 24, 2000.

tt, you said, "Lots of people go to church but that doesn't make them a Christian. Just like my going to the Democratic HQ doesn't necessarily make me a Democrat."

That certainly wouldn't make you a Democrat. However, let's say that in addition, you publicly embraced Bill Clinton as your personal leader, adopted the Democratic party platform, and when you reached a position of political power, implemented that platform verbatim, plank by plank. Let's also say that your private papers, not written for public consumption, mention your abiding belief in the Democratic party, and your hope for their blessing. Let's also say that you outlaw any party other than the Democrats, and that you jail and eventually execute anyone participating in any activities which go against the platform of the Democratic party. Eventually you die, proclaiming your belief in the Democratic party until the end.

Pretty strange for a non-Democrat, isn't it?

-- For your information (historian@historychannel.com), March 24, 2000.

Hitlers lord, god and master was satan. There are mounds of historical material supporting this. You choose to ignore this.

Hitler twisted Christian doctrine to suit his needs. You do not know what sound Christian doctrine is in the first place, neither are you interested in knowing, so how can you possibly say Hitler was a Christian you don't know what a Christian is. It is interesting that the Germans know Hitler wasn't a Christian. So enjoy your delusion.

I get my figures from just about anyone but Simon Wisenthal. You claim to have historical interest in this subject. It won't be hard for you to confirm my facts...if you are interested in facts! The Germans also admit the figures I use are true. Enjoy your day!

nancy

-- NH (new@mindspring.com), March 24, 2000.

For your information: You're doing a good job here.

Many people seem to think that being a christian is the same as acting ethically. And that ALL decent behavior grows only from christianity. And that the ONLY good in the world comes from christianity. What utter nonsense.

-- Pam (jpjgood@penn.com), March 24, 2000.

Nancy-

If you make an assertation, it is your job to supply facts that support it, plain and simple. Why should I go looking for information to support your facts if you're too lazy to do your own leg work? Surely your assertations are so true that you'll have no trouble providing evidence.

I'm waiting patiently, Nancy.

-- For your information (historian@historychannel.com), March 24, 2000.

Pam-

My sentiments exactly. Not all Christians are good people, but those that aren't don't cheapen the religion by their embracing of it. I think people like to pretend that Hitler and the Nazis were very different from us, but the fact is, they weren't. The Nazis, and their sympathizers, were ordinary, every day people who got caught up in a movement. They weren't insane, weren't less than human, and certainly weren't intrinsically evil; in fact, the majority of people who perpetrated the Holocaust come across as almost banal.

I am a Jew who grew up in Germany. I live in the US now, but I have met many people who were involved in the holocaust in one way or another, whether it was driving trains to Auschwitz or keeping track of prisoners. It took a lot of people to keep the "final solution" running with its terrible fluidity. My parents survived the camps, and in doing so, came away with the realization that the psychological mechanisms that caused these people to go along with the holocaust is a human condition, not particular to Nazis or Christians or Germans. We say "never again" because we realize that it CAN happen again, and we must always be on guard against it. Those people like Nancy who wish to marginalize the participants in the Holocaust, to write them off as something different from themselves, are really trying very hard to escape the unpleasant reality that the potential exists in themselves, as it does in all humanity. It's the legacy of the Nazis and the nightmare of the 21st century; normal people have the capacity to participate in very horrible acts.

-- For your information (historian@historychannel.com), March 24, 2000.

I have finally read this whole thread, and what scares me the most, and I am not going to name names, is there are people who would set themselves up to define absolutely who is and who is not a christian.

This is absurd, as anyone zealous enough to make these judgements suffers from one of the greatest maladies of all-spiritual pride. I for one can never claim to understand the workings of God, and have enough humility to know that I cannot make judgements that are reserved for it.

We have to let people make that decision for themselves, you are a buddhist when you say you are, a Taoist when you say you are, etc.. There is NO litmus test whereby any one of us can say, beyond a shadow of a doubt, can say who is and who is not a christian.

Sadly, someone on this thread think there is a litmus test-I paraphrase: One who has accepted jesus christ as a personal savior. There is no reasonable discourse with a zealous born-again christian. I pray for all of them.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), March 24, 2000.

A. Hitler forced the Lutheran Church in Germany to subject their doctrine to state review by the Gestapo. Pastors which refused or resisted were imprisioned. An underground church called the "Confessing Lutheran Church" broke from the state sponsored official church. This "Confessing Church" was led by several Pastors including Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Eventually Bonhoeffer was imprisioned after a long attempt by Hitler and the Gestapo to win Bonhoeffer's allegiegance to the Nazi state rather than God. Bonhoeffer's writing prior to his imprisionment and from prison are prolific. Bonhoeffer was executed for treason.

Hitler was not a Christian that gave obedience to God but rather a statist that subjogated the much of the German church to obey the state.

-- History repeats itself? (church@history.then), March 24, 2000.

FutureShock said:

>>...there are people who would set themselves up to define absolutely who is and who is not a christian.

Matthew 7 16-20

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

>> I pray for all of them.

Thank you. I need as much prayer as I can get!

-- I believe in Him (Jesus is King@Kingdom.come), March 24, 2000.

This thread should have ended with one of For-Your-Information's well reasoned replies.

Yes, Christians persecuted Jews in Germany in the 1930's and 1940's. Was Germany populated with Muslims and Buddists? No. The population was mainly Christian and they committed atrocities.

-- Pam (jpjgood@penn.com), March 24, 2000.

Future Shock, you got it right when you said, " There is no reasonable discourse with a zealous born-again Christian.

I'm always amazed at people believing in, and blaming the devil for criminal behavior. Who was it that said, "He who believes in the devil, is already the devil's own.

It seems that lately Christians are very touchy about any type of criticism. Maybe it's because that for so many thousands of years they tortured, burned or censorsed, with iimpunity, anything or anyone that was against church dogma. Now they are getting some criticism and they are howling loudly .

I haven't seen any sources mentioned by those who claim to be the true Christians, but claim Hitler wasn't. I will gladly post my sources both for authentication of my posts, and because it's very interesting reading. Here goes.

Mein Kampf by Hitler. Adolph Hitler by John Toland. The Life and Death of Adolph Hitler by Robert Payne. Der Fuehrer by Konrad Heiden. Unheard Witness by Ernst Hanfstaengl. The Last Days of Hitler by H. R. Trevor-Roper. The Mind of Adolph Hitler by Walter C. Langer. The Rise and Fall of Hitler, by William L. Shirer. The Scourge of the Swastika by Lord Russell of Liverpool.

Has anybody read the book, The Wave, I think this is correct. It was an experiment a teacher in high school set up to show how people could treat other people inhumanely by simply being put in a different group. It proved almost too well, how those people who commit atrocities, such as Hitler, are no different than us.

To say that unless you accept Jesus as your savior you are not a Christian, is to exclude vast numbers of people in the world. A case could be made that exclusive behavior, thinking you are a member of the "only true faith, is the beginning of intolerance. Personally, I want no part of this sort of thing. To better understand this mindset, I suggest The Psychology of Religion, a very interesting book.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 24, 2000.

For your information:

Based on what you have introduced as evidence, from Hitler's actions as well as his mere words, I think it is reasonable to conclude that Adolph Hilter thought of himself as a Christian and was the best Christian he knew how to be.

As for his views on abortion, homosexuality and the rest, I find that many professing Christians do not agree with either Hitler's conclusions or his actions in this regard.

In fact, it would probably be safe to say that, among professing Christians, the only universal agreement you will find are on a few points of theology, and not of social policy. The Jewish law of the OT is included in the Bible, anda great many Christians put heavy emphasis on it. Other Christians, such as the Society of Friends (Quakers), place very little emphasis on the OT.

Pretending that Christianity is monolithic may work well as a debating position, but does not match the facts at all. Chhristianity is multifarious and diverse. It includes everything from Jesuits to snake handlers, Benedictine monks to tent revivalilsts, Copts to Amish.

BTW, because I do not believe in the central tenet of Christianity - the resurrection - I am not a Christian at all and would never describe myself as such. But I have profited by the existance of the Christian tradition and would never dream of associating it with Nazism in any but a coincidental fashion.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), March 24, 2000.

Brian-

Stating the fact that Hitler, as well as many other Nazis and Nazi sympathizers, does not equate nor associate Nazism or Christianity. It is nothing more than stating the historical facts.

While Christianity is not monolithic, it is true that Hitler held many positions favored by modern American fundamentalists. It is also true that his motivation and justification for these positions lay in his own Christian belief.

-- For your information (historian@historychannel.com), March 24, 2000.

FS:

I have finally read this whole thread, and what scares me the most, and I am not going to name names, is there are people who would set themselves up to define absolutely who is and who is not a christian.

Yeh, you have that one right. You now have described the major problem facing the Republican party this year; what caused the uproar over BJ. What is causing a division in the country. It is all in that one statement. We shall see.

Best wishes,,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), March 25, 2000.

I believe in him:

I just felt the need to respond, since you addressed me and then quoted scripture in an attempt to show me how one can find the "truth" in determining who is an who is not a christian.

"By their fruits...", is part of that scripture, but by posting this you still have not addressed my point of man not having the ability to make God's judgements.

How can you say you know with absolute certainty that a certain behavior is good fruit or bad fruit?? The bible is full of contradictions in this area. Please, I beg you, pray for humility and ask God to free you from the enslavement of judging the behavior of others as christian or non-christian.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), March 31, 2000.