Galatians 6:2:

'Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the Law of Christ'.

Proverbs 17:22:

'A merry heart doeth good like a medicine.'

After the Psalms, there are two books which come to mind which are helpful to the depressed person.

The classic is CS Lewis' 'The Screwtape Letters'. This is a satirical account of Satan writing letters to his nephew, 'Wormwood' with elder advice in the fine art of working ill in the lives of the people he is working on.

The second is 'Don't Let the Jerks Get The Best of You!' This was written by Dr. Paul Meier, a devout Christian psychiatrist who in his opening comments gives an example of what a big jerk HE was in his younger years.

He points out how sustained anger can cause people to reduce their seratonin levels (this has been the subject of scientific research ~ he was a medical doctor before becoming a psychiatrist).

For the person who does not suffer to the extent that a bi-polar individual might, in needing medication, there are things you can do to eliminate depression. If one needs medication, he/she should not feel guilty for having to use it, if it is given by a prescribing physician. If the verse above is true, then medicines are not all bad.

Among the things he recommended, as I recall, is to get enough potassium. You can get potassium in oranges and bananas, as well as other foods. Somehow that raises the seratonin level in the blood. I think he also said that St. John's Wort has been shown to have a positive effect. The fruit is good because of the fiber, as well.

I know there are quacks out there recommending all sorts of weird regimens. The thing about what he said is that you don't have to spend a whole lot to try to help yourself. We need to first learn to turn our anger over to God, and not allow 'a root of bitterness' to grow in our hearts.

He is Director of the Minirth-Meier Clinics, which are in existence to help Christians with emotional problems.

It is strange to me that Christians feel guilty about emotional illness, when they are willing to wear glasses, or go to the dentist, or get other medical care, but won't get help for emotional problems.

We should be helping and praying for one another.

By the way, He attended my church in the 60s when he was an undergraduate student at Michigan State.

We need to quit biting and devouring one another. It's not good for our health.

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

Answers

Connie, I have read two threads in the last two days now, along the "Lets stop biting and devouring each other" vein from you. This one and a short paragraph in a post to Dr. Jon. Am I to assume that you have exempted yourself from your own admonitions? The reason I have asked is because you have not followed your own advice in other threads, in particular in posts to Lee and Danny...even as recent as a post with the same date as this one. Or is it ok to bite and devour some??? Just wanted to get the rules straight.

Also have you ever read John McArthur's Book "Our Sufficiency in Christ" ? I am afraid he would disagree in part with your psychiatrist. I don't really want to get into another discussion on this because of an older thread where it was already discussed. I knew you liked John MacArthur and you probably would enjoy his book as well. I did.

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

Dear Jenny:

Thank you for your response. My memory is not what it used to be, so at this moment I do not recall having said anything critical of Lee or Danny in one of today's threads, but as soon as I can , I will check over what I have said, and get back to you.

Earlier, when I first started coming here, I

In starting this thread, I sincerely wanted to help anyone who is experiencing depression. It is not uncommon, even among Christians. I have a couple of relatives who have had several bouts of it, and it is quite debilitating.

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

There is alot of misunderstanding concerning what depression is and what it is not. For one thing there are several different types of depression. There is a depression that is a result of the situation a person may be experiencing in life, such as death, the lost of employment, or money problems. This type depression is not considered to be a mental illness. This type of depression can be dealt with several ways.

There is also a depression that many of us have experienced on a short scale. You wake up with the blues and your energy level is down and you just don't seem to be able to shake it. This is most likely caused because of the body chemistry and the next day we are doing better.

A person with clinical depression is not just a person with the blues. They are not abel to get out of bed in the morning and do not enjoy life, no matter how great their situation may be. They do not eat or they may over eat. They at times become so depressed that they are not able to get out of bed to use the bathroom and they do not care. Their thinking is off. They are not thinking normal thoughts. They believe everyone and everything is out to destroy them.

Then there is what many call manic depression or bi-polar. This person suffers like the clinical depressed person but will also hae highs. They will think that they are kings and queens and that nothing can hurt them. They will spend thousands of dollars in a short amount of time, even if they do not have it. They thoughts rush from on thing to the next. At times they will have several thoughts in their heads all at one time. I know one person who was having hullucinations and became canitontic.

We know from science that the last two depressions are caused from a chemical imbalance in the brain. Their brains do not have the right chemicals to transfer electrical impulses from one nueron to the next nueron. It is like a diabetic. A diabetic does not produce a insulin to digest food. The clincial depressant and the bi-polar person is not producing a chemical that is needed to have proper thought patterns. Once they have the medications that help them, their thought patterns return to normal. Yes there are some that do not but a high percentage does.

Yes, there are alot people taking prozac and such who do not need it. Depression is not negative thinking, it is not the blues, or a low in life, it is the inability to think in a proper manner in which the Lord created the brain to do. Christ is able to help people through this. He gives them the strength to make it through very difficult and confusing days. He helps them to have clear thoughts. He becomes the strength that those who suffer with this illness do not have. I believe myself that those who have Christ do much better with this illness than those who do not have Christ.

I guess what I am asking is that we not tear down honest real mental illness because many do not have it that claim to have it. If you ever know someone who has it, the last thing they want is to have any of these depressions and they will do anything to escape their nightmares. They have alot of faith and have to live each day one day at a time with the help of Christ to make it through it. My wife suffers with bi-polar and I have seen her faith as she deals with the illness everyday. Her faith has caused her to overcome alot of things that are associated with the disease like drugs and alchol. Before I had to deal with this 10 years ago I would have been like alot of you and thought, they need to change their way of thinking and start thinking positive thoughts. We all need that but what is happening is the inability to do just that. It is like asking a man with no legs to walk.

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

(I accidentally hit the "submit' button before I was finished with my comments.)

Dear Jenny: (again)

Earlier, when I first started coming here, I DID react to some very unkind posts from various people, but got that under control as quickly as I could.

It doesn't matter that I was not the one to start the attacks; I was wrong to react the way I did. I was not reacting to the way I was being ridiculed; I was reacting to the way Mark Hillyard and Barry Hanson and dbvz were being treated.

Instead of addressing the points we disagree on using civilized methods of debate, we did (I, myself included) react with anger and hyperbole. I am sorry that I said the RM is heretical, and that some would make good poster boys for Pharisaism.

There are too many good people here with whom I simply disagree on one point: the necessity of baptism, a work, for our salvation. Anything which requires an action on anything else is a work, no matter who performs that act.

I think this is at the crux of our differences; somehow the RM has convinced its adherents that baptism is not a work. I am, by the way, almost ready to respond to Lee's demands for a 'statement'.

It isn't going to be much different than what I have already said: "There are statements in Scripture which are paradoxes to our finite minds, and which we will not understand until we come into Christ's presence."

We beat each other over the head with our version of the 'Truth' and call that 'Love'. I am as guilty of that as anyone. The reason I try to use just Scripture in proving my point is because, at a certain point in the debate, my words might be working against my argument, if you can follow that.

I won't say who I think also has that failing; As the old saying goes: "If the shoes fits, wear it."

In starting this thread, it was because I truly am concerned for the welfare of all of us on this forum. There is something about listening to older women's counsel, which reference I can't recall right now; I probably qualify to be an older woman to every person on this forum, including the moderator!

That does not include in the church, and no matter what the age of the pastor or elders, I would never usurp authority over them. Not that I am usurping authority over anyone here: I am particpating in a publc discussion forum, and except for the limited period when I was being verbally attacked and responded in a way other than my normal response, I have said nothing in anger.

Even such a Godly man as Benjamin seemed a little angry, but I can't speak for him. For anyone to say that he is soft or concedes merely because of being gentle is, to me, wrong. He is very strong and firm in dealing with people who haven't quite reached his level of maturity. Anger itself is not a sin; continued, unresolved anger is, and that is what my post above addresses.

Some people just like controversy, and I suppose I am not averse to it, myself. But divisions over unedifying matters are to be avoided.

May God be very close to you, Jenny, and to Danny, too. I hold no grudge against you.

I pray that you will feel the same way eventually.

In Him

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

Also, thank you, Jenny, for the title of that book. I will get it.

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

Connie, I really do appreciate your answer and its honesty. That was all I was asking is that the rules apply to everyone. I believe you are the first to have given me an answer that is fair, I have debated this subject before (don't know how much you have read in the old threads) but no one has even come close (male or female) in giving me the decent answer that you have. I realize that in debate what one sees as unloving or unfair may be different than another's perception. For instance, your denial/De-nile comment of today was what I call biting sarcasm, I have no problem with that and have been known to use it myself. However, Danny and others, has been called on the carpet for that. My only issue is that some tend to preach being loving and then turn around and they're the first to name call or be unloving. I also have no problem with heated debate or the fact that you and I will probably never agree on isssues of baptism, etc. This forum would be boring if we all agreed, so that was never an issue with me, only the double standard. I, at least, Connie, feel that while you disagree with me on many issues, you at least understand what I was trying to get at. Thank you.

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

Connie,

You have said:

"There are too many good people here with whom I simply disagree on one point: the necessity of baptism, a work, for our salvation. Anything which requires an action on anything else is a work, no matter who performs that act.

I think this is at the crux of our differences; somehow the RM has convinced its adherents that baptism is not a work. I am, by the way, almost ready to respond to Lee's demands for a 'statement'."

I know that you do not believe what you just said... If I, a restorationist, were to agree with you that baptism is a work (something I do) then the following would ALSO BE TRUE...

HEARING GOD'S WORD IS A WORK. (It is something I do)

BELIEF IS A WORK. (It is something I do)

REPENTENCE IS A WORK. (It is something I do)

CONFESSION IS A WORK. (It is something I do)

But you do not believe any of those statements now, do you? I think that if you are going to argue that Baptism is something I do and is therefore a "work" and thus will not get me saved, then none of the other things listed above will either. But this is not the truth, now is it?

Besides which Baptism IS NOT something that I do, it is something I submit to, just as I submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ! You are wrong in thinking that we restorationists believe that baptism saves us. Jesus Christ saves us through His shed blood on the cross... but we MUST make a response. "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'" Acts 22:16

In Him,

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

Nate:

I agree with this statement completely, and have obeyed it. This is where the semantics come in. I can't understand how mental assent, (belief, repentance), can be equated with a physical act: going down into the water, submitting to someone dipping you and raising you, symbolically, from death unto life. Would you not agree that this is where we cannot agree?...and perhaps can never agree?

The statement:

Jesus Christ saves us through His shed blood on the cross... but we MUST make a response. "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'" Acts 22:16

In Him,

-- Nate Graham (Vocalmania@aol.com), March 23, 2000.

Acts 22:16: (Ampl.)

16: And now, why do you delay? Rise and be baptized, AND BY CALLING UPON HIS NAME, wash away your sins. {Connie's emphasis}.

To me, this says that we wash away our sins by calling upon his Name, which I have done.

I Peter 3:21: (Ampl.)

21: And baptism, which is a figure {Connie: Figurative?} [of their deliverance], does now also save you [from inward questioning and fears], not by the removing of outward body filth (bathing), but by [providing you with ] the answer of a good and clear conscience [inward cleanness and peace] before God, [because you are DEMONSTRATING WHAT YOU BELIEVE TO BE YOURS] {Connie's emphasis} THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST.

Amen; So be it.

In His all sufficient shedding of His blood for my sins.

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

On the subject of books for those who are depressed, C.S. Lewis' book, "A Grief Observed" is an excellent book for anyone going through a recent loss of a loved one. If anyone saw the movie "Shadowlands" with Anthony Hopkins and Deborah Winger, it dealt with Lewis and his wife Joy and her dying of cancer. "A Grief Observed" is Lewis' journal after Joy's death, dealing in quite frank and honest terms with his loss, with God, with his faith, with himself.

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

Sorry, my browser keeps leaving off my name. But by now you all know who I am :-)

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

John:

Yes, that was very touching. I don't watch many movies, but I saw that one.

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

Praise God, Jenny! Perhaps we are coming to an understanding, and can 'forget those things which are past'.

I had forgotten that comment I made about the Nile not being ONLY a river in Egypt. Now I don't have to go over everything to find it.

Yes, that was smart alecky. I'm sorry if it offended you. You don't know how many times I have deleted smart-alecky rejoinders. That one escaped my fingers into cyber-space. I hope you can forgive me.

In Him,

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

NOW EVERY PLEASE NOTICE HOW FALSE TEACHERS DELIBERATELTY PERVERT THE WORD OF GOD!

I will simply quote the word of God along side of Connies perversion of that word and it will be obvious to those who can read that she has done nothing more than simply and deliberately change the very word of God because His word does not fit HER DOCTRINE. A greater example of deliberate dishonesty and perversion of Gods Holy word cannot be found!

ANNAIAS SAID TO PAUL: AND NOW WHY TARRIEST THOU ARISE AND BE BAPTISED AND WASH AWAY THY SINS CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD. (Acts 22:16).

CONNIE deliberaely perverts it to read:

16: And now, why do you delay? Rise and be baptized, AND BY CALLING UPON HIS NAME, wash away your sins. {Connie's emphasis}.

PETER SAID:  THE LIKE FIGURE WHEREUNTO EVEN BAPTISM DOETH ALSO NOW SAVE US (NOT THE PUTTING AWAY OF THE FILTH OF THE FLESH, BUT THE ANSWER OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE TOWARD GOD) BY THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST. (1 Peter 3:21).

But Connie deliberately inserts HER perversions of this text by inserting her words thus:

21: And baptism, which is a figure {Connie: Figurative?} [of their deliverance], does now also save you [from inward questioning and fears], not by the removing of outward body filth (bathing), but by [providing you with ] the answer of a good and clear conscience [inward cleanness and peace] before God, [because you are DEMONSTRATING WHAT YOU BELIEVE TO BE YOURS] {Connie's emphasis} THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST.

All one need do is to read these two in comparison and see just how far a false teacher will go to deceive themselves and others.

For the sake of truth,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

Connie,

am*pli*fy (verb) -fied; -fy*ing

[Middle English amplifien, from Middle French amplifier, from Latin amplificare, from amplus]

verb transitive

First appeared 15th Century

1 : to expand (as a statement) by the use of detail or illustration or by closer analysis

2 a : to make larger or greater (as in amount, importance, or intensity) : INCREASE

b : to increase the strength or amount of; especially : to make louder

c : to cause (a gene or DNA sequence) to undergo amplification

verb intransitive

: to expand one's remarks or ideas

synonym see EXPAND

This is the definition from AOL OnLine Dictionary.

If I am not mistaken, the Amplified Version is not an authorized Translation, but a paraphrase? If this is the case, refer to the NASB, RSV, or the NIV or even the KJV... but at least an authorized translation.

I LOVE to read "The Message" but, I do not base theology or doctrine from it.

In Him,

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

Nate:

I suppose you read the 'Different Bible Versions' thread (You may have started it!)

From its Foreword the Amplified says of itself:

'The Amplified Bible is not an attempt to duplicate what has already been achieved. Rather, its intent is to progress beyond the point where others have stopped. Its purpose is to reveal, together with the 'single word' English equivalent to each key Hebrew and Greek word, any other clarifying shades of meaning that may be concealed by the traditional word-for-word method of translation.

Now, possibly for the first time the full meaning of the key words in the original text is available in an English version of the Bible.

This concept is fully justified and supported by the countless acknowledements of Bible translators as to the inadequacy of the customary method. Martin Luther, whose translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into German in A.D. 1534 'spiritualized Germany and made the German language', stated it plainly: "The words of the Hebrew tongue have a peculiar energy. It is impossible to convey so much so briefly in any other language. To render them intelligibly we must not attempt to give word-for-word translations, but only aim at the sense and the original Author's idea. [Table Talk]

'This is precisely what the Apostle Paul and ministers, teachers, and commentators of every generation have attempted to do. But, unfortunately, there is a traditional reluctance to increase the number of English words used lest one 'add to' the inspired text. On the other hand, by refusing to consider all the shades of meaning intended in the original language, we have unintentionally diobeyed the admonition not to 'take from' God's Holy Word. In a sense, amplification merely helps the English reader comprehend what the Hebrew and Greek listener understood as a matter of course.'

THE PUBLISHERS

-- Anonymous, March 24, 2000

Personally,

I've found that the best cure for depression is a 2 hour "Three Stooges" marathon. If you're still depressed after that - call the Coroner. :~)

Oh, and throw in a couple of "Road-Runner" cartoons as well.

-- Anonymous, March 24, 2000

Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk!

-- Anonymous, March 24, 2000

What!?! No "Gilligan's Island?

-- Anonymous, March 24, 2000

Ooooooooooh! Wise Guy!

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2000

Jenny:

In your post early in this thread, you said that 'John MacArthur and your psychiatrist would not agree with each other' and I wonder if you could clarify that.

I came back here to get the name of the book you recommended, and noticed that.

Our pastor invited Paul Meier to give a seminar at our church and our pastor is mentored by John MacArthur.

You all are in my thoughts and prayers.

In Him,

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2000

I brought this up from the archives because I thought perhaps some might not be posting because they are depressed.

I originally started it because a poster had said he was depressed.

The Lord said to Paul, when he was suffering with 'a thorn in the flesh': "My Grace is sufficient for thee, because my strength is made perfect in weakness." [PARAPHRASED]

His grace is sufficient for all of us.

-- Anonymous, April 08, 2001

This was first posted when I had been here barely three weeks.

-- Anonymous, April 08, 2001

I have chronic chemical depression and panic attacks, Thank God for medication and humor. Mark mentioned Road Runner and three stooges. I like the humor of the following:

Hello, Welcome to the Psychiatric Hotline If you are obsessive-compulsive, please press 1 repeatedly.

If you are co-dependent, please ask someone to press 2.

If you have multiple personalities, please press 3, 4, 5 and 6.

If you are paranoid-delusional, we know who you are and what you want. Just stay on the line so we can trace the call.

If you are schizophrenic, listen carefully and a little voice will tell you which number to press.

If you are manic-depressive, it doesn't matter which number you press. No one will answer.

-- Anonymous, April 08, 2001

I love it, CG.

Have you ever heard of RM-COUNSEL?

A Christian psychiatrist (Harold Helm) is the moderator. That was on his forum awhile back.

I don't post there anymore because he's a little too liberal for me.

But a lot of professional people involved in counseling post there.

The 'Synagogue Seating' post above is from him.

-- Anonymous, April 08, 2001

This is one thread where you can see where some of the acrimony first appeared.

This was two (plus) weeks after I first came to this forum in early March. I had already been called satanic and a liar by this time.

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, May 09, 2001