I am a Southern Baptist, looking at attending a Christian Church. I need to know the problem that churches of the Restoration Movement had in naming local congregations?

-- Anonymous, March 19, 2000

Answers

Sammy Boy.....I agree with you, I need clarification on the question.

Connie....I would appreciate you not even attempting an answer you have absolutely no knowledge of. What answer you do attempt, displays that lack of knowledge.

And I mean that "in love."

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2000

I don't understand the question.

-- Anonymous, March 19, 2000

Raymond:

The RM does not like to use men's names: Luther, Calvin, or even the ones the Catholics call 'Saints' or any person's name. [~ we are all saints ~ we who believe on the Son of God].

I don't know if they don't like a location's name ~ such as Christians of Atlanta or San Francisco (oops! a saint) ~ for, of course, Paul wrote letters to the churches at various locations, and called them that.

As I understand it (but I could be wrong), they reserve for each other the appellations: 'Brother' and 'Sister', and call those outside their group 'Friends'.

I'd be interested to hear their position on this, also.

-- Anonymous, March 19, 2000

Raymond;

You wrote our church with this question, and I attempted to answer it there, but I will post my answer here also.

I'm not really sure what you meant by your question either, but I think what you might mean by "problem" is whether to name it "Christian Church" or "Church of Christ." Some congregations think the first is more Biblical, others opt for the second. I was even in one that switched from one to the other, then back again. Its pretty much left to personal preference of the congregation.

However I think that most choose "Christian Church" over "Church of Christ" to distinguish from our acapella cousins ... especially when they also have a church in the same community ... because they always use "Church of Christ." But thats another looooong story.

Hope you enjoy your visit! In His Service,

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2000

Connie you falsely said:

As I understand it (but I could be wrong), they reserve for each other the appellations: 'Brother' and 'Sister', and call those outside their group 'Friends'.

Now you know better than what you have said above because I explained it to you in detail. I have not said that I reserve the term Brother and sister only for each other and call those outside their group friends. I have said very plainly that I reserve the term brother and sister for those who are Christians. I reserve it for those who are in Christ Jesus by obedience to the gospel. I am certain that there are thousands of people out there who have read their Bibles and learned the truth and have become Christians and have never been nor will they ever be directly associated with what you call our group. But they are Christians. Just because we claim to be Christians only does not mean that we claim to be the only Christians. Now I have referred to you, as a friend because I know from your teaching in this forum that you have never obeyed the gospel of Christ and that you are therefore not in the family of God and thus you are not a Christian. For that reason I do not call you a sister in Christ because you are not in Christ. But anyone who has obeyed the gospel according to the word of God is my brother and sister no matter where they are. Even if they have wondered into some denomination that is contrary to the very truth of God, if they have obeyed the gospel of Christ they are my brothers and sisters. But you are not one of those Connie.

Now your deliberate attempt at deception concerning this matter, Connie, shows that you are not interested in the truth. You love to tell that which will confuse others and these things do not come from the Holy Spirit that you falsely claim to be leading you. The father of lies is Satan Connie. You knew that your above words were not true. You were deliberately trying to prejudice this new poster in the forum, werent you?

You should be ashamed but I am sure that your father Satan is proud of you.

Your Christian friend,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2000

E. Lee Saffold,

You should be ashamed but I am sure that your father Satan is proud of you.

Your Christian friend,

E. Lee Saffold

Lee,

As the old saying goes..."With friends like you who needs enemies?"

Are you sure you want to leave that posted? I don't mind you disagreeing with my position re: the Israel question, but I fail to see anything Satanic about Connie.

Perhaps you might consider retiring to a beautiful garden somewhere for a time of reflection. Jesus used to do it when the pressure got to be too much, or he had to reflect.

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

Thank you, Mark.

I know that you and I disagree on prophecy, but you have always been a gentleman.

It is ironic, but I just posted that 'old saying' on the 'Different Bible Tranlations' thread.

My sword of the Spirit is the Word of God, but kind words from friends are a balm for a sometimes old, sad heart.

In Him

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

Lee ~ and Raymond:

These were my own words for which I was accused of lying, which I really work very hard to never do. God is my Father and Satan is the father of liars.

As I understand it (but I could be wrong), they reserve for each other the appellations: 'Brother' and 'Sister', and call those outside their group 'Friends'.

I'd be interested to hear their position on this, also.

-- Connie (hive@gte.net), March 19, 2000.

I am still praying for you, Raymond.

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

Connie: You said:

As I understand it (but I could be wrong), they reserve for each other the appellations: 'Brother' and 'Sister', and call those outside their group 'Friends'.

Now these words are and continue to be a reference to the place where you and I discussed this matter in another thread wherein you did deliberately accuse me of saying such a thing and that accusation was a lie. Here are your exact words concerning that matter:

"As for the 'Sis' and 'Bro' discussion: I have noticed that Lee pointedly signs off as 'Friend' (meaning himself) to someone he disagrees with, and 'Brother' to someone he agrees with. And I also know there is a verse which I can't remember, which says something about calling others 'friends'. I think it was Paul."

Connie (hive@gte.net), March 14, 2000.

Now you falsely accused me of calling those with whom I agreed Brothers and sisters and those with whom I did not agree Friends. I then responded with these words to you:

Now Connie:

I have often called people brother that I disagree with. You noticed that Brother John and I had a misunderstanding and I still signed off as "Your Brother in Christ. You will notice that I even referred to that evil woman Nelta whose is extremely impenitent and teaching doctrines that I abhor as sister Nelta. Every person in this forum disagrees with me about the use of instruments in the worship but I call all of them my brothers and sisters in Christ. Therefore you are completely wrong in your assumption and your assertion offered without proof that I only call those who agree with me my brothers and sisters in Christ. That, Connie is patently false! And with just a little bit of honest and non-prejudicial observation would have made that fact apparent to you. But I will now explain why I refer to some people as my friends and others as my Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

Then I went into detail to explain what I mean from the scriptures as follows:

"I refer to you as a friend. I refer to those who are in Christ Jesus (Gal.3: 26,27) because of their obedience to the gospel of Christ (Romans 1:16) and their having obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (Romans 6:17) that through faith in Christ cause them to repent of their sins (Acts 3:19; Acts 2:38; Luke 13:3,5) and confess Christ with their mouth (Romans 10:9,10) and humbly submit to Christ by being buried with Him baptism (Mark 16:16; Matthew 28:19,20; Acts 22:16; Acts 8:25-40; 1 Peter 3:21) and have thereby been born of the water and the spirit ( John 3:3-5; Titus 3:3-5; Heb 10:22; Eph. 5:26) as bothers and sisters in Christ for they are in Christ. Now notice that they must have through faith "obeyed from the heart" meaning that they understood that they are expected by the lord to do these things "for the remission of their sins" and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38). Any one that has not been born again according to GOD'S plan of salvation as taught in His word is not in Christ and is not a CHRISTIAN. Therefore I do not refer to them with the affectionate term brother or sister in Christ. That phrase is reserved for those whom I know have obeyed that "form of teaching" (Romans 6:17) and are thus "in Christ" (Gal3: 26,27) and I do not use those words refer to anyone else.

"Now hundreds of people have been "baptized" when they went swimming but they did not go swimming by faith in Christ and their hearts were not upon him and repented of their sins and they have not confess Christ is the son of God and they were not baptized for the remission of their sins and therefore are still in their sins and have not the "spirit of Christ" and are thus "None of His" (Romans 8:9). SO just because someone says they have been baptized does not mean that they did it as a response that proceeded from faith which comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. (Romans10: 17). Therefore their action was not prompted by faith and produce by it) for it was not according to God's word. Therefore they never became Christians though they mistakenly though they were already Christians by a DEAD faith that did not prompt them to act in accordance with the commands of God and therefore could not be saved for their faith was "DEAD BEING ALONE. (James 2:24)."

"So when you see me call someone friend that means that I consider them a friend. There is nothing wrong with that now is there Connie?" When you see me call them brother or sister it means that I have reason to believe that they have "obeyed that form of teaching" as found in the doctrine of Christ that I have briefly explained above. Now none but those who are in Christ Jesus are Christians. None but those who have been begotten again by the truth and have obeyed the gospel of Christ are my brothers and sisters in Christ. (1 Peter 1:22; Romans 6:3-6; Gal 3:26,27). For Paul says, " For ye are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ". Gal 3:27. No one is in Christ who has no by faith and with his or her heart (Romans 6:17) repented of their sins (Acts 3:19) confessed Christ with their mouth (Romans 10:9,10) and been baptized for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38) and those received the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). Only those who have done these things from their heart (meaning that they understood what they were doing by faith and why they were doing it and were looking for the promises of God related to having done these things) are children of God and members of the family of God. For that reason I do not refer to those whom I do not believe obeyed these things from their heart (that is with the understanding) as members of God's family and I do not pretend that they are Christians when I know that they are not because their faith was "DEAD being ALONE". So I refer to you as my friend Connie, and I sincerely mean it, but I cannot refer to you as my sister in Christ because I do not believe that you are in Christ. That is the very reason that I am so urgent about your seeing and understanding the truth so that you might be in Christ and be saved from your sins.

Then you falsely accused me with the following words:

Lee: You make my salvation dependent on my joining your denomination.

TO which I responded as follows:

Connie:

You said:

" You make my salvation dependent on my joining your denomination."

"Now Connie you are being extremely dishonest. I have not said anything about you "joining" anything much less any denomination. In fact, I do not have a denomination for you to "join". I have not said any such thing in any of my words to you.

"Now I challenge you to quote my exact words where I said that your salvation depends on "joining my denomination" as you put it. You will not be able to quote my words where I have said such a thing for I have never said anything like that. I would never say such because I do not belong to any denomination at all. I am simply a Christian and as such I belong to Christ. That is what I am saying that you should be. Just a Christian and nothing else. I have clearly said that you are not a Christian because you have not "obeyed from the heart that form of teaching" (Rom6: 17 revealed in the scriptures. You say that you have believed and that you have repented and that you have been baptized but you have also said that we are saved by "FAITH ALONE" which means that you did not respond in faith from the heart (or understanding) to God's command to be baptized. You were baptized to join some denomination but the scriptures teach that we are to be baptized for the remission of sins and then and only then will we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38). Since you have not done this you are not a Christian and you have not received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Now that is what I have said. But I have not said anything about you "joining any denomination". I have not "joined any denomination" myself. I believe the fact that you belong to a denomination is preventing you from knowing the truth and actually becoming a Christian. There are no denominations that were approved of God in the New Testament and there are none approved of God today. God does not approve of denominationalism (1Cor.1: 10). For that reason I do not belong to any of them. Now I hope that you understand me clearly Connie. I do not belong to any denomination because they are all sinful and any who belongs to a denomination is sinning against Christ our Lord. I also do not belong to any "restoration movement " denomination because the restoration movement is not a denomination. It is simply Christians who are calling upon people to come out of the denominations and be Christians only without belonging to any denomination at all. Now all who have obeyed form the heart that form of teaching (Rom.6: 17) are Christians and the exact same thing that made them Christians automatically and by the same process added them to the body of Christ or family of God. When they are thus born again by obeying the gospel (John 3:3-5; Titus 3:3-5) they are children of God (Gal. 3:26,27) and are in Gods family the Church. (1 Timothy 3:15). Just like a new born baby does not have to "join a family" an newly "born again" person does not need to "join a "Church of his choice" or any denomination for he is already in the church of Christ or the family of God." "No Connie, no one in this forum is trying to get you to "join" any denomination, lest of all me. I am trying to persuade you to obey FROM THE Heart (Rom. 6:17) the gospel of Christ by faith, NOT BY FAITH ONLY so that you will be a Christian and nothing else." "I have said that I do not believe you are a Christian because you have not obeyed the gospel of Christ from the heart. Then you come back and deliberately accuse me of saying something that you knew that I did not say. Now you knew that I said nothing about you joining any denomination, didnt you, Connie? You had to know it because I did not say any such thing. So why are you being so dishonest as to claim that I have said something that I did not say? You are merely trying to use prejudice to avoid the truth. For you know if you can get others to believe that I am saying that you are not a Christian because you are not a "member of my denomination" as you say it, then they will not listen to anything else that I have said. Your deliberate efforts to prejudice this case are not going to work Connie. The people in this forum can read and they know that I have not said any such thing."

"SO Come in here Connie and prove that I said those words. Now I am asking you to PROVE it. Quote my words where I said that you are "not a Christian because you have not joined my denomination". You will not do this because you cannot. For I have not said anything like it in any place whatsoever. I have said that you are not a Christian because you have not obeyed the gospel. I have also proven it to be true from the scriptures, which I now point out that you completely ignored." "I gave the proof and the people can clearly see that you have not responded to any of what I have said. I know you do not want to face these truths. But do not deliberately misrepresent what I have said to you because you are afraid to honestly face these arguments and either answer them or accept them.

Your Christian friend,

E. Lee Saffold

-- E. Lee Saffold (gdragon@mindspring.com), March 15, 2000." Then you come over to another thread where people do not know what you have said and the ways in which you have lied and pretend that you just want to know what we think about a subject that I have explained to you in detail.

You say:

I'd be interested to hear their position on this, also.

You have heard our position on this Connie and your pretending that you have not heard it is a lie. But you tell us that you try not to lie. But in this case you have deliberately lied several times and you continue to attempt to paint the false impression that no one has explained this subject to you. That is, to use an old saying a bald face lie!

Even Brother Danny has also explained our position to you on this matter. He and I both quoted these words for you:

In fact, in the Christian Church/Churches of Christ we have a saying, "We are not the only Christians, but, we are Christians only."

He went on to explain to you the following:

"The point being, we have no reason to doubt that there are others who have been obedient to the gospel of our Lord, who for whatever reason are in other faith groups."

"All we can do is speak for ourselves. We are content to be called by they were called in the Bible. Not Baptist, Methodist, Lutherans, etc.....rather they were called Christians." "We are not a denomination. There is no denominational headquarters. Each church is autonomous, just as they were in the N.T. Each church is governed by a plurality of Elders who are chosen from among the people." "The Elders are responsible for the spiritual oversight of the church. This comes from Acts 14 where it points out that Paul appointed Elders in each church."

"I am an evangelist or preacher. Some in our brotherhood perfer the term "minister." Nothing wrong with that. I simply prefer the term "preacher."

"I am not appointed to a position as in a denomination. I am interviewed by a congregation's Elders who then make a determination as to whether or not to present me to the congregation for approval. The congregation votes on whether or not to extend the call to the preacher." "The preacher is there until he choses to leave, or the Elders feel that it is wise for him to leave. In each case though, the local congregation decides, not a denominational headquarters." "All money collected by the congregation stays at the local level, except for money that is designated for missions. However, even the congregation makes a determination about which missions they will support." "We have the Lord's Supper each and every Sunday, just as the Church of the New Testament did and the church did for the first 1600 years. When I refer to church history, I'm not saying that everything in church history was right. In fact, there was much that went wrong. The further they moved from N.T. times, the worse it got. That is what the Restoration Movement is all about. To push aside all the errors, doctrines of men, and creeds, and RESTORE the church of the New Testament.

But still you come into this thread and PRETEND that you would like to know what we think of these matters also when in fact you are fully aware of our position relative to this subject and it has been explained to you several times. Now Connie that is LYING and you are guilty of having done just that in this thread and that is why I call you a liar. You teach false doctrine, which could be only because you do not know the truth, but your pretending to not know our position as if no one has ever explained it to you is a LIE. It is that simple and your father, Satan, who is the father of all liars, is without doubt proud of you.

Mark:

I am not surprised that you see no evil in Connies false doctrines because you are a false teacher yourself. "Birds of a feather flock together since you guys like old sayings so much. It is too bad that you do not love the truth of Gods word as much as you do your old sayings.

Your false Anglo-Israel racist doctrine is not any more acceptable because you are sweet and kind to your fellow laborer in false speculative nonsense about prophecy. For even though the both of you disagree about prophecy you both are false teachers who speculate in such matters. You do have much in common though Connie is not the racist that your doctrine would require one to be.

In that Satan is the father of Lies (John 6:44) and the both of you are teaching false doctrine in the very name of Christ and lying about what others have said in the process of contending with you it is clear that you are children of your father Satan. I have no need to go to a garden to mull this over. It is a fact that all can see. Now I will not be nice to those who persist in perverting the right ways of the Lord".

In fact, I do believe that I have gone too far in calling you friends. That may not really be the truth. It may be that both of you are enemies of all righteousness and should be referred to in that way. But I know for sure that to call you Christians is definitely not acceptable to any who love the truth.

For Christ and the truth.

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, March 24, 2000

Brother E.Lee, I appreciate and understand what you are saying about being careful about who you call brother or sister. Are we not also instructed to even be careful about who we say "God Bless You or God Speed" to? I have tried to look this up but can't find it. Perhaps you have already mentioned this and I missed it. Are you familiar with the passage of scripture I am referring to?

-- Anonymous, March 24, 2000

Jenny:

I believe that the scripture that you are referring to is the following:

"Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not GOd. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the father and the Son. If there come ANY unto you and BRING NOT THIS DOCTRINE, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed IS A PARTAKER OF HIS EVIL DEEDS." (2 John 9-11).

And Jenny, I thank you for that reminder for that verse most certianly applies in the case of Connie and Mark, doesn't it? The doctrines that these two teach are not the doctrine of Christ and I most certinly do not bid them "God speed"!

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, March 24, 2000

Color me stupid, but I still fail to see the vile, Satanic side of Connie.

When I was growing up, we were taught the "five-finger exercise" of those things God requires us to do (works? gasp! NOT!) to enter into a relationship with Him:

1. Hear (Connie has heard the gospel)
2. Believe (Connie believes in Christ)
3. Repent (i.e. turn to God ... I think Connie has done this also ...)
4. Confess Christ publicly (Connie has done this, here in this forum in front of all of us as witnesses)
5. Be baptized. (Connie says she has done this, and she has stated in her previous posts that she believes it was in obedience to her Lord's command, being baptized a 2nd time when she actually became a believer in her heart.)

So I fail to see where Connie is not a Christian, and is so all-fire Satanic, with the exception that she is not clear on baptism being a "work." I think the labeling here is rather harsh. As someone recently paraphrased Alexander Campbell in the Christian Standard (and I am paraphrasing them because I don't have it here in front of me):

"We are not the only Christians, But we are Christians only. (but not you, because you were not baptized "for the remission of sins" in the exact manner required, with the right words, the right formula, etc. etc.)"

Is that what we are really saying here? Is that where we all are? And is God really that petty, cruel and capricious, that He would condemn someone who believes wholeheartedly in His Son's saving atonement to Hell for all eternity because they slipped in the baptistery?

-- Anonymous, March 24, 2000

John:

Thanks.

I was starting to feel like the runt of the litter.

And have you had any 'ad hominem and eggs' lately? They're good, too. ;-) ;-)

-- Anonymous, March 24, 2000

John, I take the words of God very seriously. When he says to do something, I do it and exactly how he says to do it. God means what he says beginning in the OT. Do you remember that the priests were the only ones allowed to touch the Ark of the Covenant? When it was being transported a very well meaning man saw that it was about to fall and reached out to steady it and he was immediately struck dead. Now this man was very sincere and was doing a good deed but God said NOT TO TOUCH the ark. Was God being petty, cruel and capricious here? WHat about Annias and Sapphira who were struct dead for lying. John, it is more than just baptism but the Holy Spirit issue, doctrine of illumination, etc. All false doctrine. John have you ever taken your concordance and looked up all the references for how to handle false doctrine? It is all very seemingly harsh. Are you suggesting we just ignore those scriptures because God wouldn't be that petty, cruel and capricious???? Which ones are we suppose to obey and which ones do we ignore. Now on the issue of baptism I'm sure Lee can tell you better where she errs so I hope he will explain. He gave us the scripture in IIJohn 9-11 are we to ignore this?

-- Anonymous, March 24, 2000

Bro. Lee, Thanks for looking that up for me. My version uses the words do not welcome them into your house, rather than wishing them God's speed. Thats what I get for using the NIV... HA!

-- Anonymous, March 24, 2000

John:

You have said:

Be baptized. (Connie says she has done this, and she has stated in her previous posts that she believes it was in obedience to her Lord's command, being baptized a 2nd time when she actually became a believer in her heart.)

Now John just because someone says they have done something does not make it true. I have asked Connie several times to tell us just which command she obeyed when she obeyed God in baptism. She refuses to answer. Now I can tell you that any command that she chooses I will show from her own words that she has not obeyed from the heart that Command. Now I am waiting for her to stop avoiding that Question. You see John, it does not matter if I think she is or is not a Christian. What I think about it is useless. It does not matter if you assume along with her that she is a Christian. What matters it that she has truly been obedient to Gods commandments concerning baptism. Her doctrine that she is teaching is proof that she could not have been obedient to Gods Commandments concerning baptism.

Now I am not going to explain this for you John until Connie comes in here and tells us just which one of Gods commands does she claim to have been obeying the day she was baptized. When she answers that question she will then prove to everyone, including you, that she could not have obeyed Gods commands concerning baptism when she was baptized. I do not care if she was baptized a hundred times if she did not follow Gods command she is not a Christian.

Now you think that I am being harsh in claiming that Connie is a Child of Satan. You are welcome to think so but that does not change the facts one bit. Now I was referring to her deliberate lies that I have proven that she has told. All such liars are the Children of Satan, for he is the father of lies. Now it does not matter if you think it is harsh brother John. If she has lied then it is true. Now I notice that you do not say the same of Mark Hillyard. For you know that Satan is the originator of his false doctrine. What if he were to come in here now and tell you that he had been baptized to obey God. Would you just automatically accept his words? I certainly hope not! That racist nonsense that he is teaching is straight from the pits of hell and you know it. You have done a great job of proving it to be false. John, the same devil is the author of Connies false doctrine. They are different false doctrines but the author of them both is Satan. I am looking at the spiritual side of what is happening here, John. You see a very nice lady who claims to be a Christian. Indeed her demeanor is nice but her doctrine is false and her lips have spoken lies.Nice demeanor does not make false doctrine palatable to the faithful, John.

I understand what you are talking about. We should give people the benefit of the doubt and assume sincerity until they prove otherwise. Brother John, Connie and Mark both have clearly proven otherwise. Defend her if you wish, John, but I will continue to assault her doctrine and expose her lies. One of the lies she has told is that she has obeyed Gods commands concerning baptism. She has not done any such thing and asserting that she has is not the same as proving from God's word that she has done so. And when she tells us just which of Gods commands she specifically obeyed when she was baptized you will see that she has not told the truth about it.

But I will not continue to argue with you or anyone else about methodology and attitude and demeanor and feelings and such. I have proven over and over again from the scriptures that the attitude that I have displayed toward false teachers such as Connie and Mark is scriptural, correct and I will not cease to display it. Most of my arguments concerning this matter have been completely ignored. That is another tactic of those who do not love the truth, John. They just ignore what has been said until everyone has forgotten about those arguments and then they come back whining that they were beginning to feel like the runt of the litter. And no one can remember why she is being spoken to in such stern language. Connie you are not in the family and therefore do not have the slightest chance of being the runt of the litter. Those who have not been obedient to the gospel of Christ are not in the litter, Connie. You have rejected the very words of Christ and they will judge you in the last day. (John 12:48). Then you say:

Is that what we are really saying here? Is that where we all are? And is God really that petty, cruel and capricious, that He would condemn someone who believes wholeheartedly in His Son's saving atonement to Hell for all eternity because they slipped in the baptistery?

Now John we are not talking about someone merely slipping in the baptistery. We are talking about someone refusing to obey God and disobeying him deliberately while in the very process of being baptized and then pretending to have been obedient to God. But I will explain this further when Connie tells us which command she obeyed when she was baptized. God is not petty or cruel John. Man is all of those things. When they are so petty as to deliberately ignore His PLAIN AND SIMPLE COMMANDS concerning baptism they cannot accuse God of pettiness in rejecting them.

When one has slipped at the swimming pool and went under the water they have been baptized, John. You sound as if you are ready to accept anyone as a Christian who has so much as slipped in the pool for then they can say they were baptized. And if they believe that God controls everything that happens they could argue that God baptized them and therefore they did it to obey Gods will. No John, God does not accept every person who has slipped under the water. But you would if they claimed that they had obeyed God by being baptized. You would say, They said they were baptized in obedience to Gods irresistible grace. And I accept it. Your accepting ones baptism will not make them acceptable to God. Now will it John? My rejecting their baptism will not cause them to be rejected either, John. But Gods rejection of their pretentious and disobedient baptism will cause them to be lost. Only those who obey from the heart that form (pattern) of teaching wherein they were delivered will be saved. (Romans 6:17). But remember that I am deliberately holding back on the complete discussion of this matter until we get Connies answer concerning just which of Gods commands, if any, she obeyed when she was baptized.

I wish that I could say that Connie was a Christian. I sincerely do for that is my concern. But with her understanding that she has demonstrated in this forum of this subject there is absolutely no way that she has obeyed from the heart that form of Doctrine Romans 6:17 that delivers us from sin. Now you and I can argue about this later but for now I want Connie to respond to the numerous questions that she has ignored. So Connie, if you can bring yourself to tell us the truth, which command of God did you obey when you were baptized. Then we will she if you really obeyed God or not.

Connie, there are those that are very concerned for your tender feelings. I understand that and wish that there were a way to tell you the truth without hurting your tender feelings but you are using your feelings to avoid the truth on this subject and John is only assisting you in it. I am more concerned about your eternal soul than I am about your tender feelings. Now John you may accept this false teacher as a Christian but God does not for she has not obeyed Him at all. And if she will answer the questions that I have asked her I will show that she could not have obeyed God when she was baptized.

Now I leave it John. I am arguing with her about this matter and you and I can argue about how much a person should understand when they obey God later if you really think it is something about which we really disagree.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, March 24, 2000

John:

You said:

"We are not the only Christians, but we are Christians only. (but not you, because you were not baptized "for the remission of sins" in the exact manner required, with the right words, the right formula, etc. etc.)"

Now, John, I do believe with all of my heart that we are Christians only and that we are NOT the only Christians. Anyone who has the word of God and has read it and learned the gospel of Christ and has been obedient to it is a Christian even if they have never even heard of those of us in the restoration movement who are Christians. I say this even if they have gone into some denomination because they lack an understanding of the truth about the sinfulness of denominations. All who have been obedient to Christ upon hearing the gospel are Christians. We are certainly not the only ones with access to a Bible and therefore cannot be the only ones who have learned the truth and been obedient to it.

If they were not baptized according to the teaching of the scriptures they are not Christians. I said nothing about the right words being said at someones baptism. I do not think that the scriptures give us a formula of right words" to say. But we must be baptized in the name (meaning by the authority of) of the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit but there is nothing that says this is a formula of words to be said at baptism. It is a requirement that must be met for if some one is baptized by some other authority than the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit they have not obeyed Gods will.

Now, I have said nothing more that Paul said concerning that "form of teaching not any "right formula" for baptism. I have simply said what Paul said concerning our being "obedient from the heart to that form (Pattern) of teaching whereunto ye were delivered" (Romans 6:17). It is a "pattern of teaching related to baptism which is discussed in detail in the context which is Romans 6:1-17.

Now while I believe with all my heart that it is possible for one to become a Christian without ever knowing anything of us so long as they have obeyed the teaching of the very word of God I do not believe Connie to be one of them.

Therefore your contention that I do not believe the saying; we are Christians only but not the only Christians, is just not true. I do believe it. And when Brother Campbell said those words that you quote him as saying he did not mean that anyone who merely claimed to obey God in baptism was to be considered a Christian. He was only pointing out the simple fact that since the word of God is found all around the world and the truth is available to thousands who would never know us that it is certainly true that we cannot consider that we are the only ones to have learned the truth of the gospel and become obedient to it. He did not mean that any and everyone who claims to be a Christian was considered by us to actually be a Christian. Even you do not accept Mark as being a Christian now do you? Would it be just then for me to claim that you do not believe that we are Christians only but not the only Christians?

Anyway, I just wanted to clarify that for you John. I do very much believe that because we claim to be Christians only does not mean that we claim to be the only Christians. I do not believe that we are the only Christians in the world. But I do not have to allow someone like Connie to continue on in her delusion that she is a Christian when in fact she is not, without warning her of her true condition, in order to believe that we are not the only Christians. Now that is the simple truth of that Matter, John.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, March 24, 2000

Raymond:

You have asked:

I am a Southern Baptist, looking at attending a Christian Church. I need to know the problem that churches of the Restoration Movement had in naming local congregations?

Raymond, I apologize for ignoring your question. I believe that you may find it helpful to go through the scriptures and notice that the church did not have a name for it had not been denominated by Christ or the apostles. Now the Church is surely described in the scriptures. It is described as the body of Christ (Eph1: 21-22; Col. 1:18; Eph. 4:4) it is described as the churches of Christ (Romans 16:16). It is called the house of God (1 Tim.3: 15). It is described as the church of the firstborn (Heb. 12: 23). It is described as the Kingdom of God (Matthew 13:24,31, 33,44,45,47). It is the family of God and should wear his name (1 Tim 3:15; Eph.3: 14,15). All should be done whether word or deed in the name of Christ. (Col 3:17).

But do notice that early men began to name themselves after the ones who had baptized them instead of Christ (1 Cor. 1:10-12). This practice continued and now we have people claiming to be Christians calling themselves by anything except the name of Christ!

I recommend that you notice also that you cannot find in the scriptures a Methodist Church, Baptist Church, Presbyterian church, or a Roman catholic church, or any of the many hundreds of denominations found in the world today.

Now I have determined to be a Christian only and as such I am a member of the house or family of God, the body of Christ, and the kingdom of God on this earth. Have you ever asked your self which denomination Paul, Peter, James, John, and the rest of the apostles along with the thousands of Christians living during the days of the New Testament belonged to?

If they could be Christians and go to heaven when they died with out belonging to any denomination whatsoever then so can you and I! That is what I have chosen to do. I do not belong to any denomination. I belong to Christ. I am a Christian only rather than a certain brand of Christian.

I therefore recommend that you also study the scriptures and seek only to be a Christian and nothing else for that is exactly what the apostles were and the early Christians who continued in their teaching were also and we can as well if we will but continue in the teaching of the apostles who gave us the doctrine of Christ. Let us walk only in the doctrine of Christ. If we do this we will not belong to any one or any denomination but only to Christ.

I do not know why anyone, especially the restoration movement, should have problems naming local congregation for the Christians under the guidance of the Holy Spirit through the apostles did not bother with naming the local congregations and I only wish no one had ever bothered with it. For now many who believe in Christ are only confused and misled by such things!

Your Christian friend,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2000