As per my recent post in the "Lucifer" thread, here is a brief, textbook-type of explanation of the Amillennial view of Eschatology.

Bear in mind that I am not an Eschatology major, so to those who are - please be merciful and quick with me.... :~)

Amillennialists look for no physical, temporal reign of Christ on earth. Revelation chapter 20 is interpreted as a figure (as is most of the Book, save the first 3 chapters and the last 2 chapters). The current Church Age is understood as the millennium, and the church IS the prophesied Messianic Kingdom.

The 2nd coming of Christ will be signless - "like a thief in the night" - if you don't mind quoting the words of Jesus and the Apostle Paul.

There will be no rapture, where the Saved are taken from the earth 1st, leaving the evil alone on the earth with Satan. The parables of the dragnet and the tares both state that the bad would be weeded out 1st, leaving the good behind.

Therefore, the rapture and resurrection of I Thessalonians, and the Final judgment will all take place at Christ's return.

All of creation will then be destroyed with intense heat and the universe will be re-created - doing away with the old sin-stained world and bringing in a New Heaven and a New Earth.

The return of the Jews to Palestine is not prophesied in Scripture as the Jews no longer have any special place in God's plans. Their only hope is the same as that of the rest of the world - the new birth available only through Jesus Christ.

That's the Amillennial view in a nutshell.

This is the best view in my humble opinion as it nowhere contradicts scripture and it eliminates the wild guesswork concerning those days that are yet to come. It seems to me that God would much rather have us use our time more wisely than sitting around wondering how Israel is going to get their land back or about how many nukes are pointed at us, or if I need to always use the cruise control on the car in case the Rapture hits (since I always want to be a good citizen).

So there it is - hit it with your Best Shot !

-- Anonymous, March 17, 2000

Answers

Alright....the voice of reason thread!!!!

-- Anonymous, March 18, 2000

And now....for your consideration....we enter...."The Twilight Zone." Dododododododododododododododdo......

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2000

Dododododododododododododdododododdo...................

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2000

Connie....

You have now been "Saffolded"......and "Whizzed."

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2000

Congratulations Nelta!!!

You now have the longest standing record for "Conversations with Self" on this board.

Johnny Olson.....tell her what she's won!!

-- Anonymous, March 31, 2000

What do Connie and the "Everyready Bunny" have in common???

Answer: They both are still going.....and going...and going....and going....and going....and going....

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2000

This is generally the view I take, as well. As such, I don't much care for the name "amillenial"; I DO believe in the "millenium", and I think we are living in it now, and have been since the resurrection.

-- Anonymous, March 17, 2000

Way to go Wiz. I'm not sure I agree with everything you said about how Revelation is viewed, but great response. Especially about "wondering when Israel will get their land back."

I don't want to put words in your mouth but you said, "The parables of the dragnet and the tares both state that the bad would be weeded out 1st, leaving the good behind." I think you meant the evil are taken out first then the good. Personally I believe it will all occur so fast it will make little difference as to who goes first. My concern is WHER I'm going, not WHEN.

-- Anonymous, March 17, 2000

Scott,

You assume well my friend. By mentioning the parables of the tares and dragnet I was merely trying to establish a sequence of events to disprove the Rapture idea. I surely didn't wish to imply that the Christians get left behind or left out. I've played "left-out" too many times on the softball field to want Eternity to play the same way........ ;~)

Thanks for your comments - that goes for you too Sam, yours was a perfect definition of the "millennium"!

Love ya, Brothers

-- Anonymous, March 17, 2000

Mark:

All I want to say is AMEN AND AMEN!

Your Brother In Christ.

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, March 18, 2000

Mark :

I am working on something for here, but it is not ready yet.

I was going to put it on another thread, but I might as well out it here.

Cheers!

-- Anonymous, March 18, 2000

A SHORT post by Lee Saffold?

I don't buy it.

Who are you, and what are you doing at Lee's computer?

-- Anonymous, March 18, 2000

Mark W.:

I agree that we don't know the time of Christ's return, but are we not supposed to observe the signs RE: the parable about the springlike attributes of our world?

I don't know who responded with the position that we are in the millennium, but 'millennium' means 1000 years, and here we are at 2000. I know the verses which state that with God that each day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day, meaning God's time estimates are on a different continuum than ours but it doesn't seem to apply here.

Also, I mispelled 'put' in my prior post ~ should not be 'out'.

Still working on responses....

-- Anonymous, March 18, 2000

Connie,

I'll answer your questions as they arise.

1)As far as parables of spring-like attributes - you'll have to be more specific. I can recall no parable spoken by Jesus that mentioned the watching for signs in a positive light. In fact, did He not tell the Pharisees that "it is an evil and adulterous generation that seeks after signs and wonders".

2) Now the millennium. The best way to explain the interpretation of the millennium is contained in the post I sent you last week (or so) when you asked my take of "Bible Code". I gave a brief explanation of Biblical Numerology (as Brother Danny did as well on that subject) and I believe that covers the millennium.

Lets break it down. The number "10" in the Bible represents completeness, and any multiples of it magnify that completeness. Therefore, 10 X 10 = 100 (a very complete number) and 100 X 10 = 1000 or a millennium (an extremely complete number).

Connie, I don't know if you understand Geometry at all, but what I just gave you is known as a "proof". And by accepted logical procedures, I can now substitute one known equal quantity for another, therefore Millennium or 1000 years is equal to the completeness of all time in the current age or Dispensation as used in Revelation. And as Brother Sam Loveall put it, this Dispensation is now - the Christian Dispensation made manifest in Christ's Church.

You may not accept that explanation, but the most important question is how did the people Of That Day accept that explanation, because they were the first audience the Book was written for. The ancient mind worked a little differently than ours today - that's one reason why Hebrew is so different from any of the more current languages like English. This type of numerology was the accepted norm in those days as witnessed in the Bible, in History, and in Archealogical finds.

Keep those questions and comments coming and I'll do my best to answer. And concerning my answers, I'll have to warn you with the immortal words from my Dad - "I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong!" ;~) :~)

-- Anonymous, March 18, 2000

"The 2nd coming of Christ will be signless - "like a thief in the night" - if you don't mind quoting the words of Jesus and the Apostle Paul."

Just a thought on the "thief in the night."

Today we think of a "thief in the night" as a burglar. Perhaps the thief anology mentioned is the type that would come into your compound with his cohorts, suddenly, shouting and hollering and scaring the liver out of the victims, mayhem and disaster. Then riding off into the night with the captives and the booty.

(1 Th 4:16 KJV) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

Jude mentioned...(Jude 1:14 KJV) "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,"

Just as the "thief" came with his band.

Doesn't sound like a "secret Rapture" to me.

As a matter of fact it sort of makes the Secret Rapture Theory what I would call "hairy tickable."

-- Anonymous, March 19, 2000

LOL!! (Mark Hillyard)

Cheers, All!!

I'm still working on my response. My slow key-boarding is why I had to give up on being a Medical Transcriptionist. On top of that, I'm trying to find out more about this machine in front of me.

Mark Wiz:

I know two plus two makes four, but beyond that I'm not positive. I DID have Algebra I & II (one of only 3 in my 8th grade class allowed to take Algebra I) Plane and Solid Geometry and Physics. Also four years of French and only college prep courses.

My mother would not let me take typng because she said I could pick it up in 6 weeks after I graduated. If she only knew that I was going to wait 'til I was 63 to do it when my arthritic fingers wouldn't move that fast, she might have relented.

If you keep everything mathematical REALLY SIMPLE I might understand. I haven't printed out your whole post yet, but I will. Also, as I explained to someone else, the main reason I print everythong out is because I can then take it to where the light is better. Like Ann Landers says, when you get to be our age, if it doesn't hurt, it doesn't work! ;-) ;-)

As for Christ's Second Coming's being 'signless', as I recall 'every eye shall see'... I don't know the refernce off the top of my head.

The 'when' is signless, but immediately after that, everyone will know He has arrived.

In my Bible in Technology' class today, Polly, who I mentioned before as having given GW Bush a copy of Charles Miller's book, (Bush/Gore thread) said she wondered why the expression 'in the clouds' was used by God to describe His return.

Of course, Charles has been saying that the church will go through at least half of the Tribulation, at the point where things will be unbearable for Christians. That is when we will be taken up to meet Christ in the air; at a later time, at the end of the Tribulation, if I am not mistaken, then He will return with ten thousands of His saints.

Also, please read Job 40 and 41, and tell me what kind of creature or entity it is being described. (Leviathan) Read all of the refences to Leviathan.

Exegesis, Anyone?

-- Anonymous, March 19, 2000

Connie:

I don't know that this is a matter for exegesis, unless one thinks that Leviathan is purely symbolic of some spiritual truth, which idea I reject out of hand.

It is my thought (and not original with me, but one that makes the most sense of anything that I have heard yet) that both "behemoth" and "leviathan" were from among the last of the dinosaurs. Which particular ones, I don't know. Some guesses could be made. But neither description fits anything on this earth at this time. And given that I believe that man and 'saur existed on earth simultaneously, I have no problem seeing these creatures as just that -- dinosaurs, apparently plant eaters.

-- Anonymous, March 19, 2000

The analogy of the thief definitely means that He will come unexpectedly! Watch and Pray.

Matt 24:43-44 "But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

1Thes 5:2-4 "for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."

-- Anonymous, March 19, 2000

Amos 3:7, NASB

Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the Prophets.

Revelation 1:1, RSV

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to His servant John.

Daniel 12:10 NASB

None of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.

Daniel 12:3 NASB

And those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

Prophetic insight into 'the time of the end' visions also requires chronological lists of events leading up to the Second Coming of Christ.

Note:

Boy, this keyboard is making a lot of typos!

Typing

reference (misspelled TWICE)

Sam: Have there been any fossils of human remains found with dinosaur remains? I didn't think so.

MarkWiz:

RE: The prophecies concerning the Jews' second return to the land and recovery of Jerusalem is definitely referring to the end times. (IMHO)

It happened when the dust settled in the Six Day War of 1967.

'Ezekiel's account of a Russian invasion of Israel in the latter days is one of the Bible's most written about prophecies. The alignment of the nations and the course of the battle have been documented in great detail; e.g., 'The Late Great Planet Earth', by Hal Lindsey. 'Many writers support the view that this event will not be missed by anyone since the invasion escalates into a global thermnuclear war. Those who are familiar with the current literature on this subject are probably of the opinion that there is nothing futher to discuss.'

Yet, the Bible emphatically warns that the arrival of the nuclear age will be a time of the prophecies pertaining to the end times.'

'One such warning is found in a blistering indictment written against the religious leaders of the twentieth century plus the remaining time by Jeremiah the prophet just before the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem and conquered his native kingdom of Judah.'

'It is curious prophecy in that Jeremiah issued a proclamation to twentieth century pastors in the midst of a message condemning the false prophets of his day. In essence, he applied his words to the pastors of the nuclear age by inserting a vivid description of a nuclear explosion in the middle of his message.'

'This is a profound condemnation of prophetic interpretations being preached by the leaders of the nuclear age. All who are preaching and writing about Bible prophecy concerning the last days of the age should seek to determine, from Jeremiah's text, what is wrong with today's prevailing prophetic teachings.'

Jeremiah 23: 16-22 (I won't type it out).

This is sufficient to encourage some debate.

Au Revoir! (for now)

-- Anonymous, March 19, 2000

Connie: There have been footprints of humans and dinosaurs found together in the same mud deposit. There have been findings of human remains (sandals, tools) in even earlier deposits. In fact, once they even found a fossilized human skull deep in a Cambrian coal deposit (Thats "Waaaaaay" before the dino's if you accept evolution).

Regarding the leviathan: I have always believed behemoth to be some sort of saurian, perhaps similar to the brontosaurus (apatasaurus), but leviathan always puzzled me. Especially the breathing fire part. I mean that always smacked of mythology to me, of dragons. Until I heard the following suggestion:

What if some saurians could indeed "breath fire"? We know that the bombadier beetle "breaths fire" by expelling a chemical mixture which explodes in contact with air. And we know that many of the dinosaurs had great chambers in their heads for which no one yet really knows the purpose, Perhaps for holding chemical weapons? Jurassic Park theorized one dinosaur could spit acid ... why not flaming chemicals a la the bombadier beetle?

We accept that there was a universal flood, apart from the Biblical account, because people all over the world have strikingly similar flood stories. But people all over the world also have strikingly similar dragon stories, yet we take them as myth. Stories of gigantic reptilian beasts that could breath fire. Fire-breathing dinos? Well as Arsenio would say, theres a thing to make you go "hmmmmmmmm..."

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2000

Connie: you said:

Sam: Have there been any fossils of human remains found with dinosaur remains? I didn't think so.

Proving what? Proving (maybe) that they didn't hang around together. I would suggest that wherever a scattering of crocodile bones might be found in the wilds of India, there probably aren't any human bones with it. So crocs and humans don't co-exist? No, showing that humans have the smarts to not spend much leisure time where they might be EATEN!

The absence of evidence is only a good proof when there is compelling reason why there SHOULD be something found where there isn't. So don't you reckon that human types mostly stayed away from dinos?

BTW, I was answering your request for some ideas about these animals. Have you got ideas of your own, since you don't like mine?

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2000

John:

What if some saurians could indeed "breath fire"? We know that the bombadier beetle "breaths fire" by expelling a chemical mixture which explodes in contact with air. And we know that many of the dinosaurs had great chambers in their heads for which no one yet really knows the purpose, Perhaps for holding chemical weapons? Jurassic Park theorized one dinosaur could spit acid ... why not flaming chemicals a la the bombadier beetle?

Possible, very possible. In fact, some scientists have said, more than possible, and perhaps likely.

but it need not be actually such to justify the description. It would just have to seem so in some descriptive way. Plenty of precedent for that.

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2000

Personally I wouldn't want to spend my leisure time among giant, man- eating, possibly fire-breathing reptiles. Unless you want to be asked to lunch ...

Don't think you'd have much luck domesticating them, either. Doesn't look like the dudes in Job did.

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2000

Per my 3/19 post, a reply to Sam:

Typo: should have read 'don't' not 'didn't'. 'I DON'T think so.' I should have added: 'But I don't know.'

To think outside the box on 'Leviathan' and 'behemoth' consider missile firing subs; and for the 'locusts' mentioned in, I think Revelation 9, but I'm not sure, think: helicopters. I'm not asking you to give up your faith, just look at it.

Your faith isn't so fragile that you will lose it if you 'test the spirits' ~ we've been told to do just that. I am told that over 25% of the Bible concerns prophecy. Do you really think God wants us to stay in the dark on these matters?

I don't.

In Him

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2000

By the way

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2000

By the way ~ who is 'Dragonslayer'?

Have I got a dragon for you!

This posted accidentally before I finished. (I hit the 'submit' button as I was typing.

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2000

Connie:

"Behemoth" and "Leviathan": Missile firing subs? Oh come now! Behemoth and Leviathan had to be animals that Job was familiar with, otherwise God's point would be totally lost on him. And don't tell me you think they are going to have time-travelling nuclear submarines in the future!

Hmmmmm ... kinda curious to be discussing dragons in a thread addressed to "Dragonslayer" ...

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2000

Connie:

To think outside the box on 'Leviathan' and 'behemoth' consider missile firing subs; and for the 'locusts' mentioned in, I think Revelation 9, but I'm not sure, think: helicopters. I'm not asking you to give up your faith, just look at it.

Your faith isn't so fragile that you will lose it if you 'test the spirits' ~ we've been told to do just that. I am told that over 25% of the Bible concerns prophecy. Do you really think God wants us to stay in the dark on these matters?

Are you serious about this? God was referring Job to animals that he knew about, and that were commonly seen and encountered at the time Job lived. The language DOES NOT ALLOW for anything else.

I truly think that you are looking too hard for "visionary" things where simple answers will suffice. The only way you can get nuclear war out of ANYthing in the Bible is to go to it LOOKING for such, and trying to find bits and pieces that might describe such.

One of the KEY principles of hermeneutics is that the most obvious explanation is probably the right one. God is not the author of confusion. And to use your own words, "Do you really think God wants us to stay in the dark on these matters?". No, I don't, but do you think that God wanted the original readers and hearers to be in the dark on these matters? They would HAVE to be, if nuclear vessels and nuclear war is what He had in mind.

You'll have to go a long, long way to convince me that God EVER thought, "Well, these folks don't need to be able to make any sense out of any of this, just as long as those folks can work it out 2000 years from now."

The book of Revelation HAD TO MAKE SENSE to the original hearers and readers. John promises them again and again that he is writing for THEIR benefit, so that they will be encouraged to stand in the face of fiery trials. The book should be read in the same way we read the rest of the New Testament -- as letters written to a certain people in a certain place and time for a certain purpose, that purpose being the edification of those people. If it only refers to OUR generation or later, then to the people in first century Asia Minor, the book is useless. I cannot believe God would play games with them like that.

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2000

John:

If you'll notice in many of the verses relating to prophecy, many of the scenarios have the person relating the incident asking - - 'What are these, Lord?' If they had been horses or trees, he wouldn't have had to ask.

There are many verses which people throughout history have wondered what their meaning was ~ and many references to metallic appearances. And just as you mentioned wondering what the fire- breathing feature was, there are many others that have puzzled people.

Why did God say to Daniel: 'Close up the books, Daniel, until the time of the end, etc., etc. 'when knowledge shall increase and people shall run to-and-fro...'

In the early days of the railroads, the 'puffer bellies' were called 'iron horses.'

Animal names have been given to mechanical things since their inception.

The prophets viewing the objects were incredulous (as you are now) and had to ask what these objects were.

'...Submarines can maintain a minimum detection profile for weeks by simply 'camping' in a shallow coastal canyon - whose contours hide the submarine from all surveillance.

'More and more in recent times the superpowers are opting to hide their big subs under the Arctic Ocean's permanent polar icecap. When submarines glide beneath the polar ice floes, they enter a different undersea world which is in effect a vast, water-filled cave.

'The waters may be 3 miles deep and the ice overhead, 30 or 40 feet thick. Danger is everywhere with huge 'keels' of ice, instead of icebergs, extending as deep as 900 feet.

'Yet, in the midst of this inhospitable, eerie kingdom there are spots known by their Russian name, polynya, where melting has reduced the thickness of the ice by a considerable amount.

'These cavernlike havens provide a safe place for subs to quietly 'ice pick' - submarine jargon for parking a sub against the underside of the Arctic ice cap - for weeks on end. Once inside they are virtually free from enemy detection at the present time.

'From their secure vantage points under the polar ice, specially designed subs such as the Soviet Typhoon boomer can break through several feet of ice just prior to missile launch.

'This creates a small patch of relatively open water through which their missiles can be fired. Thus missile-firing subs can burst out of their icy caverns to attack hapless cities in much the same way mythical dragons were perceived as bursting through the vines and brush hiding the entranceways to their dens, before attacking unwary prey.

'It should also be pointed out that modern man's dragonlike subs do 'live' submerged 'in the sea' for extended periods of time. Nuclear powered Tridents, for example, have a ten-year power supply that allows them to putter along and make all the air they need from seawater. At this lazy pace they can stay submerged for months, or until their food runs out.

'There have been a number of variations in the reading of Isaiah's Leviathan prophecy over the centuries. According to Albert Barnes, 'almost every commentator has had his own theory, and has differed fromalmost every other.

'Fleeing serpent' used by RSV and NASB in place of 'piercing serpent' is one case in point. This rendering emphasizes the overall deportment of a modrn missile-firing sub's mission, which is to 'flee' detection at all times. The NIV inserts 'gliding serpent' here instead which is an apt desription of the serpent-shaped sub's smooth forward movement underwater. Barnes', on the otherhand, thought the words 'extended', 'huge', or 'vast' best suited the connection , which would fittingly describe a sub's exceptionally long, enormous size.

It is a way of looking at the prophecies that would make use of our abilities in the end times to 'go to-and-fro in the earth' and for our 'knowledge to increase'. Right now, I dare say, there are very few people who don't think there is the possibility of nuclear war.

I personally don't believe God would leave us with no knowledge concerning this. Because the 'books were [sic] closed' and we couldn't understand the prophecies until now, most of the suppositions to this point are to be accepted as any opinion.

I don't understand the not believing that God's promises to His people, the Jews, would be fulfilled, to the letter. Of course, we also are God's people, having been grafted in. But God promised the Jews that they would 'again' (a second time) be returned to Jerusalem and they have been, in the past century. (1900s). Actually they regained all of Jerusalem in 1967.

The locust/helicopter connection was made by a friend of the author's who is a Viet Nam veteran. He said, as they were studying the passage in Revelation 9, 'That sounds just the way helicopters appear!' We withhold making a judgment on whether these things are true or not, but trust God to reveal it to His people.

There is a lot of violence in the prophecies of the end-times; massive violence which would be almost impossible to bring about without extemely sophisticated weapons.

I'm sure this will engender a lot of discussion, and I'm glad our salvation doesn't depend on this subject. But as God warned Noah, I believe he is warning us.

I don't know each person's opinion of Y2K, but I think it was a dress rehearsal for something much worse.

In Him

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2000

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THE ORDER OF EVENTS LEADING UP TO CHRISTS SECOND COMING

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Prophesied Event+++++++++++++DATE+++++++++++++++Scripture

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2000

Sorry, People.

I am testing one, two, three. I wanted to make sure my new found skills were going to work without printing out the whole thing if it were wrong.

Ciao!

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2000

Sam:

Yes, I am serious about this. What do you make of the various verses which put off the explanation, especially regarding prophecy? The main one which comes to mind:

Daniel 12:

8: And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9: And he said: 'Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10: Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

It goes on to the taking away of the daily sacrifice, with some of the numerical symbolism some of you have talked about. I'm sure you will be happy to share that with us. This is for discussion and hones our weapons for dealing with the unbelieving world.

In developing this material, the author's purpose was to witness to the unbelievers around him when he was in college in the 60s. He wanted to find out what God had to say in His Word. He was as surprised as we are when he found out what the Word says on this topic.

Believe it or not, I am working on keeping my promises, but a busy life is getting in the way.

In Him

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2000

It is absolutely amazing to me that Connie can make helicopters out of locusts, submarines out of dinosaurs but can't get the necessity of baptism out of Acts 2:38!

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2000

Connie,

Did you write all of that yourself or did you plagiarize it? I am not accusing you, I just want to be clear, because that narrative did not sound like your words and if they are the words of someone else you should be giving them credit.

Can I ask you a question? Of what import did that post have to do with anything? I mean prophesy is not usually understood until it has occured.

Can I say something else? We are living in "End Times!" So what does it matter? Why spend time on divining the future when we already know how the book is going to end? We should be spending our time seeking and saving the lost and they are not interested in a bunch of religious "mumbo-jumbo" especially when we all look like fools evertime some idiot predeicts the second coming of Christ... and then that date passes with nothing happening? Not even the Son of man knows the date... "like a thief in the night" c'mon! There are souls to save out there and time is running short.

Did you ever see the movie "Schindler's List?" "One more... I might have saved one more if i'd just...." Do you honestly want to be like that in heaven? Commiserating over that one soul you could have saved if only you'd spent more time on sharing your faith instead of spending it on ridiculous claims that helicopters are locusts and the such???

Let's all keep the "Main thing" the "Main thing" shall we?

In Him,

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2000

Ok Fellows and Fellettes, let's see what I can do with these latest sets of comments & questions.

I have to say that, since prophecy has become such a big part of this thread, I have now qualified myself as a prophet. I predicted that my original post to just explain the Amillennial Viewpoint would soon expand to much bigger topics. And I must say, things have gotten a little weird at this point.

So, Let's Get Ready To Rumble !!!!

Mark Hillyard:

Your thoughts on the "thief in the night" are interesting to ponder, but I wouldn't consider them to be the best interpretation. Jesus explained exactly what He meant by those words in Matt. 24:42-44 and his explanation has to be given supremecy in all matters.

D. Lee:

Don't you just love how things become so clear and obvious when nothing but the scriptures are used to explain them. Thanks so much, Dear.

Sam & batman(mr - that is):

Good calls on the Behemoth & Leviathan. Since Job occurred before the Law, and quite possibly before the Flood - it is highly likely that these 2 critters are at the very least some "pre-historic" version of what we have today roaming around. And God only knows what lerks in the deep sea depths.

Jenny:

What else can I say but "Amen" and "you go girl"! :~) ;~)

And last but not least, Connie:

Before I comment on your questions/remarks, I would like to ask you to do something. You have obviously spent a lot of time reading books, watching tapes, etc. concerning what others have said about "End Times" Prophecy. Now I would like you to take a different approach. Take your Charles Miller et.al. books and put them away in a place where you can't get to them for about 6 months. And if you have any of Hal Lindsey's junk, just go ahead & throw it away, since he has proven himself to be a false prophet (2000 years ago he would have been stoned to death, so the least we can do is discard his false writings). I am not familiar with Miller's stuff (except for what you have mentioned here) so I will pass on making that determination about him until more input can be obtained.

Now that you have put these aside for a time, go buy a copy of the book "Hermeneutics" by Bernard L. Ramm and others, published by Baker Book House. This is not a large or difficult to understand book. It gives the accepted basics of Biblical scholarship and interpretation - including a chapter on the interpretation of Prophecy (and by the way it is not written solely by members of the Restoration Movement-so you don't have to worry about it being slanted). Take time and read it cover to cover. Then read over some of the prophetic passages you have quoted, but not just the few verses themselves but start 2 chapters ahead of them and read beyond it 2 chapters. Approach this Scripture without Miller's thoughts in your mind, but only the priniciples outlined in the "Hermeneutics" book. Then weigh what you just read to Miller's idea and see if they match - and be TOTALLY HONEST with yourself when you do this. It's not wrong to have pre-conceived ideas or ideas based on what others have said - it is only wrong not to let go of them if something different (and better) is discovered. By the way - any Good Hermeneutics book will work for this, just don't get one that deals only with prophetic interpretation - because it will be biased. An understanding of all the Hermeneutic principles is required to help you get the most from Scripture.

You may have noticed that I don't quote what others have written when I post - that is because I don't believe in it. While I would not have a problem quoting from things contributed by Danny, Scott, Duane, Lee, and several others on this forum or from various professors and preachers/teachers I know, I choose rather to only quote from scripture. It is my responsibility to read, study, & understand God's Word properly according to the proper methods of doing so, I will not allow others to interpret scripture for me, though I may use their comments as a stepping stone if I find them valid. You need to make sure you do the same for yourself - Charles Miller, Hal Lindsey, nor anybody else is responsible for your soul - only you are, so make good choices.

Now you know where I am coming from as I answer some of your comments from the last couple of days:

You are right when you say the "when" of the second coming is signless and that everyone will know when he arrives - "The trumpet of the Lord shall sound and time shall be no" (I do like to quote song lyics :~} ) That fact defeats the idea of a "secret" Rapture and of a "split tribulation". When Jesus returns, He will come quickly and everyone will know it - perhaps that is why He will be coming from the sky, as that would make it easier for everyone to see. Plus the fact that the angel told the Apostles that was what was going to happen as recorded in Acts 1:11.

As far as Amos 3:7 goes:

This is referring back to the previous 2 chapetrs where God announced His judgment on 5 pagan nations and on the kingdoms of Israel & Judah. Basically God is telling them "sorry guys, I warned you - but you still chose other gods, so you will have pay the price for your sin". That prophecy ended at the destruction of each one of the nations and ultimately at the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Rev. 1:1

"to show to his servants what must SOON take place". Who is "soon" referring to? The people of that day, of course. Were the Letters that followed written to the church at Roanoake, or Chicago, or Moscow, Texas? No, they were written for the benefit of those living and being persecuted at that time. Sure we do well to take application from them, but they weren't addressed to us specifically.

Daniel chapter 12:

This is referring back to chapter 11 which explains and prophesies the rise of the Greek & Roman Empires (including their persecution of the Jews). This is like a synopsis of Nebuchadnezzar's dream from back in chapter 2. It was born out in history leading up to the time of Jesus and was fulfilled then. No more future is to be expected of it. In fact Matthew 24:15 declares this fulfilled by the destruction of Jerusalem.

Jeremiah 23:16-22:

This is not a prophecy in the sense most people think of prophecy. It is a general statement make specifically to those facing the Babylonian captivity and to all men of all times who turn away from God and help to turn Others away from God. The Passage has a wonderful analogy to life today, but fulfilled prophecy - I'm afraid not.

Now, some general comments:

Why have you allowed yourself to get so hung up on the Russians and nukes and submarines? These people and toys are insignificant next to the power of God. There is not going to be a massive World War that is going to destroy the earth & usher in Christ's return. I say that because in Matthew 24:21, as Jesus is speaking of the fall of Jerusalem he said "there will be such a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall". Jesus is saying that the fall of Jerusalem was & would be the most gorey, disturbing, heart-wrenching event in the History of Mankind - so the Russians can't do you any more harm than the Romans did to Jerusalem 1,930 years ago. Besides, we are told that the old heavens and the earth will be destroyed with intense heat. We got some powerful nukes alright, but we don't have the power or delivery vehicles to burn up the universe (heavens).

As far as the Russian subs are concerned - don't get your info about them from people who don't know anything about them. My brother has just come off of chasing them for the last 15 years in the Pacific and I have assisted in about 100 launchings of Trident II missiles - so yes I am kind of an expert on such matters. That don't make me special - just informed. Informed enough to let you know you should disregard Charle's stuff. I could tell you more, but then I would have to "cyber-space kill you" in order to protect national security (and my Clearance).

And Finally (drum-roll please):

You said, "Prophetic insight into 'the time of the end' visions also requires chronological lists of events leading up to the Second Coming of Christ". The first word that popped into my mind was "WHY". Why do we need such a list and the bigger question - why do we even worry about it in the first place. It's not like we have any say-so in the matter. We are at God's mercy because it's going to happen when it happens. We can't speed the event up, nor can we cause a delay - so what is the big deal?

Well, I've contemplated this while suffering the effects of food poisoning over the weekend and I came to the following conclusion. There are only 3 logical reasons for getting so caught up in "End Times" prophecy and interpretation.

1)..Greed - Prophets of gloom & doom and Twilight Zone Predictions sell a ton of books. Go into ANY bookstore, Christian or Secular, and 3/4 of the books there deal with "End Times". Why haven't such "sharp-minded" people focused their efforts on printing commentaries on the Pentateuch, or Acts, or Hebrews, or James? Because they don't sell!

2)..Indulging the Flesh. - I thought to myself, if I wasn't as devoted as I am to Christ's Church & His work; what would I do if I knew the date the world was going to end -- Party Time !!! I would indulge in every vice possible, up until about 2 weeks before the end. Then I would stop, repent, say the Lord's Prayer (Not!), and get ready to see Jesus. Actually, I wouldn't do such - but I would be tempted and most people WOULD do exactly that, given human nature.

3)..Snobbery - Let's see, If I was able to discover the date of the end of the world, that would mean that I know more than you. Therefore I am better than you. I am more Spiritual than you. Now, bow in subserviance to the superior intellect. Sounds far-fetched? Not really. That's a very accurate description of the cults spun by Ellen G. White and Herbert W. Armstrong which were spun from "end times" predictions. This is the exact same attitude that infected the churches at Corinth, only it was the issue of tongues instead of "end times" that fed their snobbery.

Obviously, none of these reasons are something we would want to participate in, but are we doing it anyway? One can say, "I'm proclaiming these "end times" prophecies in order to win people to Christ". But let's face facts, scaring people into Christ doesn't work - he wants your heart not your body. Besides, it didn't work for Noah in the days that he was building the ark and it hasn't worked for the last 2000 years.

We have a lot of work to do to reach the lost and in order to get it done we need to think that TODAY is the last day of time and act accordingly. Otherwise, it ain't gonna get done!

Unless there is a good joke or snide comment worthy of response, I probably won't have anything else to post on this thread. It has far exceeded its purpose and I've pretty much had my say-so. But Connie - please try the Hermeneutics "thing" - you'll be better and wiser for it.

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2000

Nate

You made a liar out of me. You posted while I was still typing (curse these 2 slow fingers of mine) but you made some great points.

Thanks,

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2000

Connie;

You mentioned that sometimes in prophecy you have someone seeing a vision and asking God, "What are these?" But in Job we have an entirely different thing altogether. God is talking to Job throughout the entire passage about things Job is familiar with. We have absolutely no indication at this point that this one small section is to be treated otherwise. And here, we have God asking Job the questions, not the other way around. The context of the passage makes it impossible that this is anything other than straightforward what it says: some creatures that Job was familiar with that God was using to make a point.

It is really sad in these times that so many people are looking for hidden meanings in the Scriptures (hidden prophecies, codes, etc.) instead of obeying the clear and simple teachings. Too many people are trying to "think out of the box" when it comes to the Bible, because they don't care for what's in the box.

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2000

I am sad that John is now impatient with me.

I thought this might be a good time to mention this since the thread is addressed to me (and Dragonslayer, whoever that is) and it is about an opinion on the end times.

I didn't question anyone's intelligence or motives or faith; in fact, I introduce it to have you discuss it so that I can get as much information on the subject as possible.

Believe me, I have been very wary of any prophecy and have regarded all of it with suspicion. I know where you are coming from, because a year ago, I was there myself. "Doubting Thomas' had nothing on me, except that I believed Jesus without putting my finger in his wounds.

I do not seek out teachers, (normally, but now I am) and if I have itching ears, I scratch them. I thought this was a discussion forum, and some of the ideas seem pretty far out, long before I showed up. It doesn't threaten my faith, because that is secure.

I guess this one IS the farthest out. I tried to post the timeline, but I guess Duane didn't want to post it. If you could see it, then you could attack me even more! Also, I didn't like the way the second one turned out, either. I think I now have one that is good.

To my way of thinking, a discussion forum is just that; we don't have to agree on everything, but you would think divergent ideas could be expressed, especially since none of us knows for sure. I have said some mildly satirical things and got angry only once on this forum, in defense of someone else, because it didn't seem appropriate on a Christian forum to have flaming.

I got over that within one day, but I have again been accused of being bitter, and I have never felt bitter, even when I felt anger.

I know better than to allow Satan that toehold. I just order him out in the name of Jesus, and know that the power that is in me is stronger than the power that is in the world. (Satan's)

So, anyway, I guess I have gotten a thicker skin, because I am not offended by anything said here anymore. I just 'turn the other cheek' again and again and again. 70 times 7 - - a limitless number of times, if I remember correctly. The 'numbers' guy with the 'proof' can tell me if that is right or wrong. Is that MarkWiz?

But I can now say, with my mother, that: "You can't insult me! ~ I've been insulted by experts!"

Concerning prophecy: years ago in my little Greek class I learned that 'prophecy' is not foretelling the future alone; it is 'bearing a message from God.' Sometimes it involves the future but sometimes not. Is that correct?

While Charles Miller is speaking about the future, in some cases, he is also talking about the past. Some of you think that almost all of the end-time prophecy happened earlier in history.

You accept the opinions of men in an earlier age.

Daniel's Four Beasts prophecy assigned each beast to a kingdom of that time. 'DANIEL'S DREAM WAS RECORDED FOR THE BENEFIT OF A FUTURE GENERATION.' That portion is from Charles Miller's book. He rejects most of the modern writers' 'take' on this, especially Hal Lindsey's. Not that Hal was wrong about everything. I haven't read any of Hal's books, but I might to see what his position is.

Concerning Nate's post:

Yes, all of the sentences with a single quote mark are from Charles" book, in that particular accounting. I was very careful to put them there, because I know about plagiarism; my sister and her husband write and publish books.

I didn't name him, just as you don't name Alexander Campbell as being who said most of what you believe. Unless Charles sues me for plagiarism, there is no case. He isn't likely to do that, because his goal is not to sell books, but to get the information out. I am, however, going to mention it to him, as I was going to before you said that.

By the way, he said the people most interested in the material are people with scientific backgrounds.

i think he might be particularly interested in what you have to say about subs, because he tries to get the most accurate information available. For example, when he discusses the drying up of the Nile, he shows Jacques Cousteau's Journey on the Nile, which authenticates the destruction now occurring from the building of the Aswan High Dam.

His substitute has knowledge of Nuclear war studies, and a lot of information on that subject, and his information helped Charles expostulate his theories. Charles went into this study with the prayer that God would help him reach the very unbelieving generation of his college years with the Gospel of Christ.

And the scientific types can see the possibilities more than Chtistians can. If you don't read the material yourself, how can you know what it says? Also, while Charles is recovering from kidney- large malignancy removal, I will check to see if he wants to get questions from outsiders. Prior to his operation, he would accept any questions from anyone.

Of course, all of the material is available for free from his website:

www.tip.org

You don't need to buy the book to get the information, in fact, there is additional information since the publishing of the book on the website. The only vital link ~ the timeline ~ is not on the website, and they are re-designing it, but it will take awhile; that is why I wanted to to see it for yourselves, so that you can evaluate it.

In him

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2000

Connie;

I am not impatient with you. Its just that the passage you are referring to in Job is so entirely straightforward that to read anything else into it is just plain silliness, or as Solomon put it, "grasping at wind." Let the Bible say what it says and mean what it means!

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2000

Connie,

I know you were not stealing anyone else's work. However, plagiarism goes beyond taking something from someone... it is representing someone else's work as your own. I also know that you did not intend for that to happen either. In addition, footnoting or referencing allows the reader to make up his/her own mind about the authenticity of the source and possibly following up by reading the referenced material for better background before they respond to your post.

As per the Campbell comment, I assure you that when Campbell or Stone or anyone else is quoted here, that proper credit is attributed. But most of the time, we just quote the Bible around here... that's foundational. All other comments are superfluous.

You will note that one of the biggest quoters around here is Lee and he ALWAYS gives proper credit! (heh heh heh)

In Him,

-- Anonymous, March 21, 2000

Nate and John:

We got back from our Gideons' meeting around 9:30, but I couldn't get on the Internet, so took a nice nap, and now I am able to get on.

Thank you for your positions on the above. I made sure to put the single quote in front of each paragraph, because I wanted everyone to know they were not my words.

I KNOW Charles will not mind what I did, because he is not interested in personal glory. I WANTED to credit him, but to avoid people's pouncing on them (his words) and categorizing them according to their own prejudices, and prior information, (however erroneous, sometimes) I chose to do it that way. Since I placed the single 'quote' mark there, anyone with any knowledge is going to know they are not my words. As you did.

In fact, I sent something he wrote to someone, making a slight change in it, and when I told him, and asked if that was O.K., he said that was perfectly correct, and he was glad I did that.

I, too, use mostly only Scripture, and while I am aware that you consider my interpretations naive and benighted, I am thankful that my main teacher has been the Holy Spirit. I also know that if there is error, it is MY error, not the Holy Spirit's.

Also, as I told Lee, who was demanding an interpretation of something from me, I don't do that much interpreting; I leave it to the Holy Spirit, because I feel that it is His job, not mine to inform us as to the menaing of His words.

I think there is an awful lot of put-down implied by such subtle things that one needs to be very careful what one says. I try to be.

I keep hoping that 'God will use fools to confound the wise' in my case. Now, there, I didn't credit that quote, but I assume all Christians know it is from the Bible. I know that most of you have a lot of Bible training, but that doesn't negate what he has taught me. This goes back to what someone else said about the Scriptures or the Law being our 'tutor' - unless he meant the Holy Spirit. I asked, but never got an answer.

By the way, at our Gideons' meeting tonight, one of the members told me he is studying Greek from a pastor of a Bible church here locally, and he thinks that pastor might take me on as a pupil. I had just said that I might register at a Bible college down the street for Greek. I have been interested in it for many years.

Now I know that to read the Greek classics in the original language will take years of Greek, but that is not my goal. I just want to understand a little better the meanings of various words with the correct tenses.

Not that anyone can't understand the simple Gospel. John, did you notice on another thread that I said that our pastor had been an assistant pastor at Grace in California under John MacArthur? I can't even remember which thread, but it may have been the long RM one. It was in the last couple of days.

Because of a reference to it a couple of times, I went to the 'Abstinence' thread. It was quite civilized, which surprised me. When did the confrontational style develop? Was it when Mark Hillyard started posting?

In going back over the history in the archives, I see that not only is John MacArthur accepted, but Elaine Seavey says something about Trinity Divinity School in Deerfield, Ill. That school was not far from where we lived in Hoffman Estates, Ill., before we moved to Michigan.

It was founded by the Evangelical Free Church, which is the kind of church we attended for 7 years after leaving the Conservative Baptist Church we attended as new Christians. We were immersed, after my husband made a study of it, in that church.

I wanted my children to go to Trinity at Deerfield, but after sending five children to a private, Christian School, it was difficult to send them to a private college, since we still had children in the elementary and high school level of our school.

Not only that, but they were well-equipped by that time to go into the public community colleges and universities. As our school superintendent always said (the fellow who resigned his navy V-12 commission): 'In Michigan, you have to protect tomato plants until they are able to survive on their own.'

Our first pastor at our church, which we have attended for 33 years, left here to teach at Trinity, but we are not a denominational church. Actually, our church is also 'Trinity', as I've said. His name, by the way was E. Eugene Williams. Such a fine Bible expositor.

But I digress! I had asked someone (perhaps Benjamin) what he thought of Kenneth Wuest's scholarship, but never received an answer. Kenneth Wuest taught at Moody Bible Institute for many years.

By the way, I was going to introduce another concept from Charles' study and that is the meaning of the 'flying roll', in Zechariah.

Zechariah 5: 1 and 2:

1 Then I turned, and lifted up my eyes, and looked, and beheld a flying roll.

[Charles gives a lengthy description of the meaning of 'a flying roll'.]

2 And he said to me: 'What seest thou?' And I answered: 'I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth therof ten cubits.' [Rolls didn't fly}

He goes on to explain the meaning of a 'cubit'; and then to say that this is almost exactly the size our satellites are now. He then explains the purpose of these and how the role they play is a perfect description of the role the roll [;-)]in this passage plays. (Zech. 5: 3-4.)

He then goes into a very long description of communications satellites and how we call them 'Eyes in the Sky". And here that very term is used in Zechariah 5: 5-6.

So now we have fire-breathing dragons/Leviathan, locusts/helicopters, and roll/communications satellites. [A roll, by the way, from his description:

'A roll was an ancient book in the form of a rolled manuscript, usually made of parchment. Ancient parchments were commonly called 'scrolls'. When rolled up they were called 'rolls'.]

These are what are mentioned when the Daniel prophecy is being opened.

To go on:

Zech. 5:7-8: 7 And behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead; and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah'.

8 And he said, 'This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof'.

I can't type it all here, but there are long explanations of how Charles comes to the conclusions he does.

Of course, if God has already said everything to man that man will ever know, we cannot understand the end-time prophecies. If the apokalyptic language cannot be deciphered, and God is not personally communicating with us through His word and His Spirit, I would say we have a very dead gospel and not the Living Faith I believe God has freely given us.

But I could be wrong. I, however, don't think so.

Resting safely in the arms of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

-- Anonymous, March 22, 2000

And if you have any of Hal Lindsey's junk, just go ahead & throw it away, since he has proven himself to be a false prophet (2000 years ago he would have been stoned to death, so the least we can do is discard his false writings). I am not familiar with Miller's stuff (except for what you have mentioned here) so I will pass on making that determination about him until more input can be obtained.

-- Anonymous, March 22, 2000

I am not familiar with Miller's stuff (except for what you have mentioned here) so I will pass on making that determination about him until more input can be obtained.

The above two posts were from MarkWhiz, I believe, and they were quite reasoned.

How will you make that determination? I will make an offer right here: Anyone who wants a copy of that book, I will provide it. I will send it to the location of your choice, and will pay all shipping costs.

Waiting and Watching

-- Anonymous, March 22, 2000

Thes are from your long thread of March 21, by the way, right after Nate Graham's post:

You are right when you say the "when" of the second coming is signless and that everyone will know when he arrives - "The trumpet of the Lord shall sound and time shall be no" (I do like to quote song lyics :~} ) That fact defeats the idea of a "secret" Rapture and of a "split tribulation". When Jesus returns, He will come quickly and everyone will know it - perhaps that is why He will be coming from the sky, as that would make it easier for everyone to see. Plus the fact that the angel told the Apostles that was what was going to happen as recorded in Acts 1:11.

-- Anonymous, March 22, 2000

By the way, MarkWhiz: 'Fellettes' ~ I LOVE it!

It's not wrong to have pre-conceived ideas or ideas based on what others have said - it is only wrong not to let go of them if something different (and better) is discovered.

-- Anonymous, March 22, 2000

Lee knows something I don't know: how to get several posts on the same thread without going back to the main one!

Rev. 1:1

"to show to his servants what must SOON take place". Who is "soon" referring to?

Rev. 1:1

"to show to his servants what must SOON take place". Who is "soon" referring to?

I'm glad that, in one place it was your opinion that I wasn't wrong and in another I was right!

Who are the seven churches in Asia? (Revelation 1:4) This is an honest question. I'd like to hear your opinion.

-- Anonymous, March 22, 2000

The seven churches in Asia are exactly who John says they are . . . seven churches in different cities toward the western end of what we now call Turkey. If you look at them on a map, and play connect-the- dots, they formed kind of a ear shape. John starts at the front top bit of the ear (Ephesus), and works his way up and around and down, to the bottom of the lobe.

In each of the letters, he makes references to situations known from history to have been happening in the cities, and in the churches, at that time.

-- Anonymous, March 22, 2000

++++++++++++++++++++++++

THE ORDER OF EVENTS

LEADING UP TO

CHRISTS SECOND COMING

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Prophesied event+++++++ DATE+++++++Scripture

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The rise of democracy as

the result of the thirteen July 4, 1776 Daniel

American Colonies abrupt

separation from Britain.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Daniels definition of the Twentieth Daniel

general period of time Century

referred to as "the time

of the end".

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The second return of 1900-present Isaiah 11:

the dispersed nation 11-12

of Israel to Palestine.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The rise of communism

as the result of the 1917 Daniel

Russian Bolshevik

Revolution.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Creation of several

independent Arab

states by Britain and 1920s Daniel

France after World War I.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The League of Nations

approved a British mandate

over Palestine that provided 1922 Isaiah 11: 12

a legal right of passage for

the worlds Jews to return

to Palestine.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Russias seizure of part of 1939-1940 Daniel 7: 5

Poland, Finland, and Romania

during World War II.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The establishment of the

International Monetary Fund

(IMF) during World War II. 1944 Daniel 7: 7

The IMF is governed by the

worlds ten most economically

powerful nations, which are

prophetically represented

as ten horns.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

-- Anonymous, March 22, 2000

Well, it didn't turn out as nicely as it looks on my copy, but it's O.K. This is page one of five. The year or period should be to the right, and the reference should be to the far right.

In Christ,

P.S.

Did anyone hear the discussion on Larry King's program tonight? It will be re-broadcast at 12:00 EST. The panel consisted of a couple of Catholic representatives, a Jewish Rabbi, and two Evangelical spokesmen, one from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. His name was Don Corson. A 'funny' he made was that he was not a prophet, nor the son of a prophet, and works for a non-profit organization. ;-)

They were discussing the visit of the Pope to the Holy Land. The Southern Baptist spokesman was very firm in upholding the Gospel and Don Corson also was, but with a little more diplomacy.

It is amazing that Larry King, A Jew, is having Christian guests who so effectively present the Gospel. Good news, in my estimation.

-- Anonymous, March 22, 2000

I'm Baaaaaaaack !

But just for a "season" :~)

Connie - a couple of comments for you:

1) Concerning your "70 times 7" interpretation - very good. As we say at work - "It's close enough for Government work"!

2) You said, "I learned that prophecy is not foretelling the future alone; it is 'bearing a message from God'. Sometimes it involves the future, sometimes not"

Again, good call. Prophecy is not foretelling or fortune-telling - it is FORTHtelling the Word of God. One thing about prophecy: in almost every case (especially Old Testament) there is a near-to- immediate meaning to whom the words were spoken to, and probably about a 50-50 chance of it referring to the future as a Messianic Prophecy, depending upon the particular prophet, words and context.

Whoa - I just agreed with you 2 more times - this can't be good...Ha! :~) (humor :~) Honestly though, I was a little hurt by some of your March 22 posts; You seemed like you thought I was too unreasonable to agree with anything you might say.

If I'm anything at all, I consider myself to be a reasonable man. If someone is right on something, I'll back 'em to the hilt. If they are wrong, I'll tell them so and prove my point. If they promote something that is silly - I'll tell them that too.

In some of the other threads, I disagreed with you on issues and posted any points that I felt hadn't been made yet, but since this thread was established to discuss Eschatology, I held my comments to that topic only. Personally, I like the "Dragnet" approach to topics such as this - "the facts, and only the facts".

And just to prove my point - sign me up for a copy of Miller's book. I may or may not agree with much or anything he has to say, but I won't do so out of ignorance. That is the same reason I ordered a copy of the "Power For Living" book that has been advertised on TV. I ordered it (actually my oldest son made the phone call), I read it, and came to the conclusion that it was Theological Drivel. But now, when asked, I can call it drivel out of the knowledge obtained from reading it. Indeed, knowledge is power; and the more knowledge I have, the more I can reach out with the Power of God (the Gospel).

Ok, time to get off of the "high Horse", I'm getting a nose-bleed:

3) As far as Daniel's Four Beast prophecy, I believe Miller to be wrong. This is best understood as a "repeat prophecy" dealing with the same four nations that the "statue prophecy" dealt with in chapter 2. They are the nations of Babylon, Medes/Persians, Greece, & Rome in both accounts.

One more thing: Sam was right-on about the 7 churches of Asia. They are the same churches the 7 letters were written to in chapters 2 & 3. We call that area Asia Minor today, but 2000 years ago it was known only as Asia.

Uh-oh, I think I just "Whizzed" again. Oh bother.

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

Great, Mark! That's what I LOVE! A reasonable man! Oops. I hope that doesn't cause you to be ostracized. ;-) ;-)

Where shall I send it? The book, I mean.

By the way, I haven't heard back from him yet, but I asked Charles if he would like to join the forum. He is recuperating from very serious surgery, so he may not feel up to it, but we'll soon see.

Praise God that you are willing to at least read it.

Remember, all, I will send one to anyone who requests one.

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

Page # 2 coming up:

Prophesied event+++++++ DATE+++++++Scripture

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The United States and

Britains acquiescence to Soviet

expansionist demands at February 4, Daniel

the Yalta Conference after 1945

World War II, allowed Russia

to extend its sway over 100

million people.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The rise of resurgent Islamic

fundamentalism as a result 1945 Daniel

of the founding of the Arab

League after World War II.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Founding of the modern

Jewish State by Europes 1948 Ezekiel 37:

Ashkenazi Jews. 15-17

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The rise of the European

Economic Community (EEC) ~

prophetically represented 1957 Daniel 7: 8

as a little horn with a mouth

speaking great things.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The idols and temples of Egypt 1960- Isaiah 19

moved out of Lake Nassers path. mid-60s

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Russians first manned 4/12/61

space flight around the world Zechariah1:8

reveals the generation that will Matthew 24:29- 35

see all the events leading up to

Christs Second Coming.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Blocking of the Nile River by the

construction of the Aswan High 1964 Isaiah 19

Dam.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ecological collapse of Egypts 1964- Isaiah 11: 15

entire agricultural system and Christs Isaiah 19

economy. Return

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Israels conquest of adjacent Isaiah 11: 13-14

territory during the Arab-Israeli 1967

Six-Day War, including the Jews Zechariah 1:17

repossession of Jerusalem.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Construction of four super 1970-

dams astride the Euphrates 1992

River. Revelation 9:14

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

Here's my Timeline for the End of Times:

Wars Start - Wars End

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Women Conceive - Mother's Give Birth

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

People Go To Work - People Come Home

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Price of Gas Goes Up - The Price of Gas Goes Down (Please Lord!)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Space Shuttles Launch - 1 out of every 100 Blow Up (per NASA expectations)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A Bunch of Preachers go into the Florida Wilderness in May - Many hogs die in said Wilderness

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

******* Jesus Comes Again ********* A new heaven and earth are created and all is made right!

This timeline saves me from many headaches & ulcers.

p.s. Danny - I had to get the hunt in before the end, the freezer is starting to get low on meat!

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

I'm like water dripping on a stone. Drip, drip, drip. (And I DON'T mean my beloved friends on this forum. ;-) ;-)

That reminds me of Edgar Allan Poe's, 'The Pit and the Pendulum'.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Prophesied event+++++++ DATE+++++++Scripture

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The heads of state of the

worlds seven most Revelation 12: 3

economically powerful 1975 Revelation 17: 8

nations began meeting

once a year to review

world economic affairs.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The replacement of modern

Israels Ashkenazi political 1977- present

leadership by the nations Ezekial 37: 18- 19

former Sephardi minority.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A Russian-Syrian friendship

treaty pledged Russian military 1980 Ezekiel 38: 4

assistance if Syria becomes

engaged in battle with Israel

on the Golan Heights.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Massive migration of Jews 1989 Jeremiah 23: 7- 8

out of the Soviet Union to to mid-1991

modern Israel. Ezekiel 37: 20-22

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Continued exodus of Jews

"out of all the countries" that 1991- Jeremiah 23:8

were created after the Soviet present

Union broke up into fifteen Ezekiel 37:20-22

independent states.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Israelis will conquer and Before Zechariah 10-10

settle Gilead (Northern Jordan) Christ

and Lebanon. Returns

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Egypts environmental Before Isaiah 11: 15

collapse will persuade Christ Isaiah 11: 19

the Egyptians to turn to Returns

Christianity.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Nile River will Before Isaiah 11:15

completely dry up. Christ Isaiah 19

Returns Zechariah 10-11 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The main message of the Before Revelation 5: 1-5

Book of Revelation will be AWW I

opened before AWW I erupts. Revelation 8: 1-7

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A Russian-led confederated Immediately Ezekiel 38 & 39

army will invade Israel. Before AWW I

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Prophesied event+++++++ DATE+++++++Scripture

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

VOILA!!

Connie,

I read "Connie and Dragonslayer . . . posting. Your responses are good, but it is obviously a tough uphill fight to get people to understand these end-time prophecies. I notice most people didn't respond to your question as to why Daniel was told the prophecies were shut up and sealed til the time-of-the-end. If their position was correct that God wouldn't write something to one generation that could only be understood by another generation a couple of thousand years later, then why didn't they respond with solid evidence to support their position? Answer, because it doesn't exist. It appears people ignore responding to arguments that are iron clad and go on to respond to less major issues.

In the fulness of time the truth of the matter will prevail. There will be two global nuclear wars and everyone on the planet will understand the prophecies about the nuclear wars, whether or not they want to. In the end the prophetic facts you are giving them will make sense.

It will be interesting to see if anyone responds to your offer to send them a book. Most of them probably won't want a book since they have taken the position that they don't need the information, which they have dismissed as nonsense. But this won't do them any good since God's truth has a way of working on people, no matter how hard they resist.

Keep up the good work.

Chuck

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

Page Number Four:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Prophesied event+++++++ DATE+++++++Scripture

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A great earthquake in First Day Ezekiel 38: 18-23

Israel will touch of AWWI Ezekiel 39: 1 - 8

off AWW I. Revelation 6: 12 - 14

Revelation 8: 5

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The first day of AWWI First day Revelation 7

marks the start of the of the Great

Great Tribulation. Tribulation

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The worlds first atomic The First Revelation 8: 7- 11

war. (AWW I) 3 Trumpets

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Atomic smoke will shorten Trumpet 4 Revelation 8: 12

the post-AWW I days. Matthew 24: 21-22

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

U.S. will use satellite United States Revelation

broadcasts to evangelize Evangelistic

the world. Outreach

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The worlds first Trumpet 5- Revelation 9: 1-10

nuclear winter. Start of First

Woe

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

First appearance of the End of Revelation

worlds future dictator First Woe

marks the end of the first woe.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The sixth trumpet time Trumpet 6-

period begins with a Start of Second

Chinese-initiated Woe

world war. Revelation 9: 13-21

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Red China wins sixth Trumpet 6

trumpet war and opens Revelation 12:17-18

a war against Christians.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The two witnesses begin

their final 1,260 day Trumpet 6

evangelistic outreach Revelation 11: 3

to the world.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Administration of Jerusalem Trumpet 6

is taken over by the nations. Revelation 14: 2

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

Page Number Five [Final]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Prophesied event+++++++ DATE+++++++Scripture

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Red China sets up a

world government,

a false religion, and Trumpet 6 Revelation 13

begins persecuting

Christians with a computerized inter-

national financial system.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

144,000 Jews ( of the

twelve tribes of Israel) Trumpet 6 Revelation 14

become Christians and

join the Christians world-

wide evangelistic effort.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The two witnesses will Trumpet 6 Revelation 11:7

be killed by the world

government.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Christians taken up to Trumpet 7

meet Christ in the air Start of Third

(referred to as Woe

the Rapture) I Corinthians:15: 51-57

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Destruction of the earths

environment from the Seven Last Revelation 16

long-term after-effects Plagues

of AWW I.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

AWW II and the atomic

destruction of the world Seventh Revelation 18

capital ends the seven Plague

Last plagues time period.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Christ returns and sets End of Third

up His earthly Kingdom. Woe and Revelation 19

Great Tribulation

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Christ restores the earth 1,000 Years Ezekial 47:1-9

to health and establishes of Peace

His just government. (Referred Isaiah 2: 1-4

to as The Millennium) Isaiah 32 :5

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And so shall we ever be with the Lord ! Amen

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2000

Connie,

I read "Connie and Dragonslayer . . . posting. Your responses are good, but it is obviously a tough uphill fight to get people to understand these end-time prophecies. I notice most people didn't respond to your question as to why Daniel was told the prophecies were shut up and sealed til the time-of-the-end. If their position was correct that God wouldn't write something to one generation that could only be understood by another generation a couple of thousand years later, then why didn't they respond with solid evidence to support their position? Answer, because it doesn't exist. It appears people ignore responding to arguments that are iron clad and go on to respond to less major issues.

In the fulness of time the truth of the matter will prevail. There will be two global nuclear wars and everyone on the planet will understand the prophecies about the nuclear wars, whether or not they want to. In the end the prophetic facts you are giving them will make sense.

It will be interesting to see if anyone responds to your offer to send them a book. Most of them probably won't want a book since they have taken the position that they don't need the information, which they have dismissed as nonsense. But this won't do them any good since God's truth has a way of working on people, no matter how hard they resist.

Keep up the good work.

Chuck

-- Anonymous, March 24, 2000

dbvz: Preach it! (I agree with you almost 100%.) My reading is that we should be immersed, but because the Greek word 'en' can be either 'in' or 'with', I accept that it can be (for you) sprinkling or pouring.

Of course, I myself would only be immersed. In our church we accept people who give a statement of their faith and encourage baptism. We all grow at different rates.

You probably know ~ are you a pastor? ~ that every instance of baptism in the N.T. was by immersion.

In re-reading this thread, I discovered that John W. was the one with the statements of various men of Faith in history.

John, our pastor who just started a new ministry of Seminars on Christian marriage, was an assistant pastor in John MacArthurs's church (Grace). He was from my hometown of Peoria, Ill.; his mother owned a dance studio before she became a Christian, and was an owner of an exercise studio afterwards when she became a Christian out of her son's ministry. (I didn't know them in Peoria, but my mother taught in his school system.

He was converted at 16 in a military academy in California, and became a devout Christian. He was sent to the military academy for discipline and because he was a handful for mom and dad. A more Godly young man one could not find. He was only 29 when we called him, and while young, had a spiritual maturity beyond his years. And he was teachable.

Grace sent two elders with him from California to Michigan when we called him, so that they could be positive that he was getting into the right and Christian church he thought it was. He willingly submitted to that; in fact he may have requested it. He was our pastor for 19 years.

Our church is very much like Grace. There is a large international class and there is a Chinese Christian church, whose attendees also come to our services, but they use the facilities on Friday evening for their services.

We've had a very strong witness in the community for these 40 + years. The Bible in Technology Class is one which has been meeting since Charles wrote his book ten years ago. Charles now has 3 classes per week.

I'm ashamed to admit that I didn't even know of its existence because at that time, it only met at 9:00 A.M., and from the days when I had 5 young children to get ready for church (my husband would take them and I would go to a later service. We've had three services for many years.)

Many people in our church have taken it, but more have not. When one first hears the message (all firmly scripturally based) one is really taken aback. Some do not believe it, but a prophet is without honor in his own country and in his own land. (As even the Lord's brother James did not believe Him initially.)

The first paragraph of his book states:

'The Bible's unabridged report on today's technology was written in ancient times to the inhabitants of the modern world. It begins with a series of feature-for-feature descriptions of the twentieth century's most distinguished engineering achievments. The startling accuracy and completeness of these writings are thought provoking. And that is precisely what these ancient texts are designed to do - - make people think.

They challenge people to seriously examine what the God of all creation has to say about modern man's inventions, the influence these advances will have on the final destiny of mankind's unguided experiment with modern technology.

Those who find it hard to accept the idea that centuries-old prophecies explain future events in terms of present-day inventions should consider the methods Jesus Christ used to teach spiritual concepts.

Jesus repeatedly selected the familiar earthly objects of that day to better instruct His listeners. During His ministry, Jesus also answered a number of questions about the events leading up to the end of the age.'

Charles Miller spent 23 years (now 33 years) working on the leading edge of the computer field by day and studying Bible prophecy by night. In his studies he discovered that Bible prophecies consistently explain end-time events in terms of modern advances in technology.

He works at Michigan National Bank as a Vice President of Platform Management, so he doesn't need any income for his book, which he sells for $5.00 in class and it costs $5.26 to produce ($10.00 on the 'net.) Shipping is included. He is not trying to make money on his book. He feels a real necessity to get this information out, as I do, for the benefit of Christians in these perilous times.

Perhaps this should have gone on the 'Dragonslayer' thread, but I started it here.

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2000

intro -- alarming news...

p.s. Due to other commitments, I will not be posting much this coming week if at all.

Version:1.0 StartHTML:000000209 EndHTML:000006296 StartFragment:000002953 EndFragment:000006215 StartSelection:000002953 EndSelection:000006208 SourceURL:http://www.insidechina.com/news.php3?id=145593

Sat, Mar 25 at Prague 04:17 am, N.Y. 10:17 pm

Hundreds Of Chinese Boats Intruding Taiwan Waters

TAIPEI, Mar 24, 2000 -- (Agence France Presse) Hundreds of Chinese fishing vessels intruded into the waters of a frontier Taiwanese island Friday in an apparently orchestrated intimidatory gesture, a report said.

The number of Chinese fishing boats sailing off Tungyin, one of several Taiwan-controlled islets near the mainland, has increased to about 240, the state-funded Central News Agency reported.

A Defense Ministry spokesman told AFP that the reports were being checked.

Dozens of Chinese fishing vessels were also seen in the area earlier this week after the election of pro-independence Chen Shui-bian as Taiwan's new president.

Provocative movements of fishing vessels are common in the area and elsewhere in the Taiwan Street.

But Lienchiang county magistrate Liu Li-chun was quoted as saying that the latest gathering was unusual because all the vessels were 100-tonne iron-hulled ships gathering at a "extremely regular formation."

It said no fishing nets were spotted on the boats, all of which had sailed from the eastern Chinese province of Zhejiang. -- Roleigh Martin http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/roleigh_martin Email address (new!): "Roleigh Martin" To subscribe to my egroups email list which is a low-volume focus on items I find most interesting, send an email (with a blank subject and blank message) to timeless_eye-subscribe@eGroups.com ********************************************************************** **** To unsubscribe, send blank subject and blank message to timeless_eye-unsubscribe@eGroups.com ********************************************************************** **** Past messages for Listserv: http://www.egroups.com/group/timeless_eye/ To have a message of yours considered for posting, send it to: timeless_eye-owner@eGroups.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- To have a message of yours considered for posting, send it to: timeless_eye-owner@eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: timeless_eye-unsubscribe@eGroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/timeless_eye www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2000

The above post was from Roleigh martin's egroup. It's the kind of thing that doesn't get on the 6:00 news in anything but sound-bites.

MarkWhiz:

The following is from above on this thread:

Again, good call. Prophecy is not foretelling or fortune-telling - it is FORTHtelling the Word of God. One thing about prophecy: in almost every case (especially Old Testament) there is a near-to- immediate meaning to whom the words were spoken to, and probably about a 50-50 chance of it referring to the future as a Messianic Prophecy, depending upon the particular prophet, words and context.

Whoa - I just agreed with you 2 more times - this can't be good...Ha! :~) (humor :~) Honestly though, I was a little hurt by some of your March 22 posts; You seemed like you thought I was too unreasonable to agree with anything you might say.

'...probably about a 50/50 chance of it (prophecy) referring to the future as a Messianic prophecy...'

Can you elaborate on that sentence?

Which ones do what, as you understand it? I'd love for Charles to be wrong; this is scary stuff. But no more scary than it was for Noah before the flood, or the people of Joseph's time when he was interpreting the dreams.

In fact, I tell Charles that if he keeps talking the way he does, I'm going to start watching sit-com re-runs, and I mostly only watch news and the weather!

By the way, how's the food poisoning recovery?

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2000

As Charles Miller points out, some won't believe it until the Nile dries up. Which could happen suddenly, if the four Dams along the Nile are turned off, ~ say if their nation's governments want to preserve the water for their own use. Do you believe that Christ is coming a second time? In that passage in Joel 3: 1-3: has the sun's light been covered, or has the moon turned blood-red? Mr. Miller shows the results of Nuclear War studies and the results of the building of the dams in Egypt, which were supposed to solve their water problems. It is actually destroying their environment.

I've checked this out on the Internet, because I was trying to determine whether I could agree with him on his postulations or not.

Check out what it says about the Aswan High Dam. I have a videotape of Jacques Cousteau's 'Second Odyssey on the Nile' the re-issuing of which is being held up in litigation by Cousteau's heirs (as are all of his videos).

I have a copy belonging to Mr. Miller, which was taken off the TV ten years ago, (so no copyright infringement) which I am having a friend make copies of for our class. I tried to get copies at the various video stores, and that is where I discovered the facts of the current hold-up of production.

I also have a tape which Mr. Miller's substitute made (also from the Discover channel) on Nuclear War Studies and how TO THIS DAY, Russian missiles are pointed at our cities.

Jenny,

Yes, I am emotional, but I am also capable of logic. I don't know which makes me sadder to have: the emotion or the logic. I'm sure that in history, which my daughter teaches, just as much error has been committed by logic as by emotion.

'Til He comes

The end-times prophecies, some of which have been fulfilled, certainly have much to be completely fulfilled.

-- Connie (hive@gte.net), March 17, 2000.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

Connie, Just like the "Land" issue I posted on earlier, why are you worried about the Nile River? There are No "End Times" prophecies made in the Bible that concern the Nile River.

Dispensationalists like your Charles Miller incorrectly use the Nile as a way of proving their ideas. They refer back to Genesis 15:18 when God tells Abram some of the boundaries of the Promised Land - "On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram saying, To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates". (NASB)

They say that this promise was never fulfilled because Israel's territory never extended to the Nile River - therefore a lot more things have to happen in order for that to come about. This theory shows extremely poor scholarship on the part of the people who promote it. The text in Genesis Does NOT say the Nile River, it says the "brook" of Egypt - In Hebrew called the Wadi el-Arish, which is a tiny brook that is dry about half the time and is located well to the northeast of the Nile. Notice also that the Euphrates is called the great river - giving it preeminence over the "river" of Egypt. And yet, the Nile is larger and more important than the Euphrates both in size and in commercial importance - how one can miss this, I fail to understand.

As far as Russian missiles are concerned - big hairy deal. If you would like to see it, I have a map that shows the targeting areas of the Russian arsenal and what level of damage to expect from each explosive vehicle. Though the expected damage areas are guesswork because the Russian re-entry vehicles have a notoriously bad aim. Personally, I don't worry about 'em because Cape Canaveral is "Ground Zero" for several incoming warheads - I'll never know what hit me...... :~)

-- Mark Wisniewski (Markwhiz@aol.com), March 17, 2000.

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2000

Mark et al:

A repost:

As Charles Miller points out, some won't believe it until the Nile dries up. Which could happen suddenly, if the four Dams along the Nile are turned off, ~ say if their nation's governments want to preserve the water for their own use. Do you believe that Christ is coming a second time? In that passage in Joel 3: 1-3: has the sun's light been covered, or has the moon turned blood-red? Mr. Miller shows the results of Nuclear War studies and the results of the building of the dams in Egypt, which were supposed to solve their water problems. It is actually destroying their environment.

I've checked this out on the Internet, because I was trying to determine whether I could agree with him on his postulations or not.

Check out what it says about the Aswan High Dam. I have a videotape of Jacques Cousteau's 'Second Odyssey on the Nile' the re-issuing of which is being held up in litigation by Cousteau's heirs (as are all of his videos).

I have a copy belonging to Mr. Miller, which was taken off the TV ten years ago, (so no copyright infringement) which I am having a friend make copies of for our class. I tried to get copies at the various video stores, and that is where I discovered the facts of the current hold-up of production.

I also have a tape which Mr. Miller's substitute made (also from the Discover channel) on Nuclear War Studies and how TO THIS DAY, Russian missiles are pointed at our cities.

Jenny,

Yes, I am emotional, but I am also capable of logic. I don't know which makes me sadder to have: the emotion or the logic. I'm sure that in history, which my daughter teaches, just as much error has been committed by logic as by emotion.

'Til He comes

The end-times prophecies, some of which have been fulfilled, certainly have much to be completely fulfilled.

-- Connie (hive@gte.net), March 17, 2000.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

Connie, Just like the "Land" issue I posted on earlier, why are you worried about the Nile River? There are No "End Times" prophecies made in the Bible that concern the Nile River.

Dispensationalists like your Charles Miller incorrectly use the Nile as a way of proving their ideas. They refer back to Genesis 15:18 when God tells Abram some of the boundaries of the Promised Land - "On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram saying, To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates". (NASB)

They say that this promise was never fulfilled because Israel's territory never extended to the Nile River - therefore a lot more things have to happen in order for that to come about. This theory shows extremely poor scholarship on the part of the people who promote it. The text in Genesis Does NOT say the Nile River, it says the "brook" of Egypt - In Hebrew called the Wadi el-Arish, which is a tiny brook that is dry about half the time and is located well to the northeast of the Nile. Notice also that the Euphrates is called the great river - giving it preeminence over the "river" of Egypt. And yet, the Nile is larger and more important than the Euphrates both in size and in commercial importance - how one can miss this, I fail to understand.

As far as Russian missiles are concerned - big hairy deal. If you would like to see it, I have a map that shows the targeting areas of the Russian arsenal and what level of damage to expect from each explosive vehicle. Though the expected damage areas are guesswork because the Russian re-entry vehicles have a notoriously bad aim. Personally, I don't worry about 'em because Cape Canaveral is "Ground Zero" for several incoming warheads - I'll never know what hit me...... :~)

-- Mark Wisniewski (Markwhiz@aol.com), March 17, 2000.

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2000

Our Lesson today was very informative. It was Lesson 25, the title of which is: 'The prophetic significance of four twentieth century super dams built astride the Euphrates River.'

This is the start of the sixth trumpet prophecy, which begins a time of trouble referred to as the 'second woe'.

Revelation 9:13-16: [IGENT]

13: And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

14: Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet,'Loose the four angels which are bound in the great River Euphrates.

15: And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

16: And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand; and I heard the number of them. [2 million men ~ both China and India each have about 2 billion people)

It then goes into a detailed account of the present day purposes and operations of the four dams which sit astride the Euphrates.

An especially gripping description of modern weapons of war is laid out in item IV.

The reference is Revelation 9:17-19. The author drove tanks during the Viet Nam war, so he's very familiar with them.

John's vision:

17: The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were firy red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur.

18: A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke, and sulfur that came out of their mouths.

19: The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads that with which they inflict injury.

RESEMBLED; LIKE

Our 'Nuclear Winter' expert brought several pictures of actual camouflaged tanks, which, when you see them, make you go: "H-m-m-m."

So now we have Leviathan/nuclear-missile-firing subs; we have locusts/helicopters; we have 'rolls'/information satellites and we have breast-plated, lion and snake-appearing entities/camouflaged battle tanks (because of the fire, smoke, and sulfur coming out of their 'mouths' and the injuries inflicted by their 'mouths' and their 'tails'. O, my.

I hope it's wrong, but each one has to decide for himself/herself.

If we believe that all of prophecy has been fulfilled, then of course it's wrong. I think people are afraid of investigating it for fear of being thought 'crazy'.

Consistent indoctrination has power. The Spirit is stronger, though, and gives life.

Watching and waiting 'til He comes.

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2000

I made an error in my post of March 17, 2000:

'Which could happen suddenly, if the four Dams along the [Nile] are turned off, ~ say if their nation's governments want to preserve the water for their own use.'

This should be the EUPHRATES RIVER.

The Nile is being destroyed by the building of the Aswan High Dam. See Isaiah 19: 4-9:

v.5:

'And the waters shall fail from the Nile, and the rivershall be wasted and become dry.'

Isaiah 11:15: [NAS]

'And the Lord will utterly destroy the tongue of the sea of Egypt; And He will wave His hand over the river with a scorching wind; and He will strike it into seven streams, and make men walk over dry- shod.'

The author explains that during the flood season (formerly, before tha Aswan High Dam was built), the Egytians called the Delta area (the tongue), 'the Egyptian Sea', because it looked like a sea, and covers a large area when flooded.

Hasta Luego!

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2000

Neenah,

Yeah, and "that's another story..." had an interesting conclusion, too. When Gutenberg invented the printing press, there was a sudden demand for large quantities of paper. At the time, people hadn't figured out how to make paper out of wood pulp, and it was much more common to use cotton fibres as the basis. Thus, there was a sudden demand for large quantities of cotton in any form at all.

Where could people find large quantities of cotton? None other than the place that perfected the previous generation of printing technology: Egypt. The muslin used to wrap mummies was available in large quantities, and merchant ships were dispatched -- most commonly from Italy -- to bring it back. I'm not sure whether they brought the mummies along with the cotton, but it turns out that they DID bring back some of the rats that lived amongst the tombs and the mummies. And the rats, as it turned out, were infested with the bubonic plague. And thus came, as a direct result of the invention of a glorious new technology, the Black Death.

Ed

P.S. The bubonic plague, by the way, is alive and well in New Mexico; someone died of it just last year. But that's another story... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------- Edward Yourdon, phone/fax: 888-814-7605 email: ed@yourdon.com Web: http://www.yourdon.com Chairman, Cutter Consortium: http://www.cutter.com/consortium/ Editor, Cutter IT Journal: http://www.cutter.com/itjournal/index.html Chairman, Cutter Summit Conference Apr 10-12: http://www.cutter.com/summit/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------

From: Neenahep@aol.com Reply-To: humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 13:36:59 EST To: humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com Subject: [humptydumptyy2k] Revolutions in the written word

Ed,

As we see the Internet once again revolutionize the written word after Guttenberg's revolution, it's good perhaps to look back a much earlier revoution. The Scientific American article called "Egypt Revolutionized Writing with Papyrus" in the current hard copy issue says:

[The Egyptian invention of papyrus - a paperlike material made from the aquatic reed of the same name - revolutionized the written word about 5,000 years ago. It was adopted by both the Greeks and the Romans and provided the word "paper" in English and other European languages....Papyrus gave way after a few thousand years to the Chinese development of what we now consider paper. But that's another story."

The Scientific American article called "Life on the Edge of the Desert" in the current hard copy and online issue at http://www.discoveringarchaeology.com/0800toc/8feature4-desert.shtml says:

[Thousands of papyrus documents and countless artifacts describe a wonderfully multicultural city of Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Hebrews, and others. After research spanning a century, Tebtunis remains one of the richest and most intriguing sites in the region, virtually unrivaled in central Egypt.'

The Italian-French team of about 20 European scholars under the direction of Claudio Gallazzi has been excavating Tebtunis each year since 1988. Their results are outstanding. A third of the site remains untouched, and other areas are only partly excavated.

Partial walls of houses and monuments are still standing, and, while the ruins surrendered almost 3,000 papyri to major excavations during the first half of the twentieth century, countless others remain to be found.

The work has an urgency because the papyri that survived two millennia face an imminent threat: Growing land cultivation through irrigation in the region is changing the warm, dry climate that allowed these precious written documents to survive. ]

How lucky that we can still read what the Egyptians wrote 2,000 or 5,000 years ago. We can't read some of what we wrote within the last 20 years now if it is stored on hole punch cards, 8" floppies, or 5" floppies unless we have the proper readers. How long will the information we are currentlly storing on 3.5" floppies, CDs, and DVDs be readable?

What is the back-up medium for all the info going digital and now being made available on the Net as we go increasingly to ebooks, emagazines, and enewspapers? I was told that much of it is being backed up on tape - which degrades over a few years. What happens when the only copies of the Library of Congress information is all digital and available only over the Net - and it degrades?

Neenah ==================================================== http://www.discoveringarchaeology.com/0800toc/8feature4-desert.shtml

Life on the Edge of the Desert High Fashion and Low Crimes Emerge from an Egyptian Outpost

by M. Lauretta Moioli

The crime occurred a little over 2,000 years ago. Some scofflaw stole earrings belonging to Terpus, and the lady was outraged. So she appealed to the great crocodile god Soknebtunis for the identity of the thief. Terpus submitted four "oracular questions," each written on a rolled and sealed papyrus sheet and each naming a suspect. For instance, one read, "If Thallos took Terpus' earrings, announce it."

Trial was simple: A priest drew out one of the notes, and the person named was guilty. We have no idea how this ritual investigation turned out, but this and other results of our excavations at Tebtunis  the fabled Egyptian "city of papyri"  suggest that crime was as much a part of urban life in ancient times as it is today.

The same ancient landfill (from the third century B.C. to the second century A.D.) that yielded the tale of Terpus' earrings also produced a lovely and enigmatic wooden box  a jewel case that was still locked shut. The case held a brooch and a bracelet in a small, inner compartment.

But the bottom of the box was broken apart, and the plate of the lock was damaged. We assume that the case was stolen, and the thief, after trying in vain to force the lock, simply smashed in the bottom and grabbed the jewels inside the main compartment.

Probably rushing to avoid detection, he missed the inner chamber and tossed the purloined jewelry box on the dump before fleeing. But the story of Tebtunis (now called Umm-el-Breigbt, a site on the southern edge of the Fay{m Oasis, about 150 kilometers, or 93 miles, southwest of Cairo) is much more than a chronicle of crime.

Thousands of papyrus documents and countless artifacts describe a wonderfully multicultural city of Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Hebrews, and others. After research spanning a century, Tebtunis remains one of the richest and most intriguing sites in the region, virtually unrivaled in central Egypt.

The Italian-French team of about 20 European scholars under the direction of Claudio Gallazzi has been excavating Tebtunis each year since 1988. Their results are outstanding.

A third of the site remains untouched, and other areas are only partly excavated. Partial walls of houses and monuments are still standing, and, while the ruins surrendered almost 3,000 papyri to major excavations during the first half of the twentieth century, countless others remain to be found.

The work has an urgency because the papyri that survived two millennia face an imminent threat: Growing land cultivation through irrigation in the region is changing the warm, dry climate that allowed these precious written documents to survive.

The town of Tebtunis was founded during the 12th Dynasty (around 1800 B.C.) by Pharaoh Amenemhet III. Little is known of the pharaonic period, but Greek and Arabic times are rather well-documented. Irrigation canals and dams turned the arid site into a fertile and prosperous city, with a population of perhaps 4,000 people. They grew grains, vegetables, and fruits, including olives and grapes.

Tebtunis  a dynamic city of temples and chapels, broad thoroughfares, and a bustling commercial center  sprawled over 30 hectares (74 acres).

The treasure of well-preserved Tebtunis papyri was discovered in 1899-1900 by two English papyrologists, Bernard Grenfell and Arthur Hunt, who found more than 1,000 documents. German and Italian teams followed until 1935, when a silence of half a century settled over the ruins  until our team arrived in 1988.

Attention has focused in and around the temple of Soknebtunis (the local crocodile god), which was discovered by Italian archaeologists between 1929 and 1935.

We excavated a small temple (dating to the first century B.C.) that included rooms for a priest and an inner cell for a statue of the god.. The cell was empty, but papyri reveal that Isis-Thermouthis was the deity of the temple. These documents also suggest that a boulevard south of the Isis-Thermouthis chapel leads to another temple, which we plan to excavate.

This large street begins at a small plaza where about 100 sheep and goats were carefully buried, apparently as an offering to Soknebtunis.. Along the street, residential areas (including homes as old as the third century B.C.) show the different periods of Tebtunis' increasing urbanization. This area preserves unique Hellenistic (Greek) areas, as well as earlier stages and the later remodeling of Roman times.

South of the residential areas and facing the desert, a square enclosure came to light, 31 meters (100 feet) on a side, with a tower rising above it. Papyri from the second century B.C. discovered within the structure indicate it was a control post strategically located to observe the entrance to the city, the Nile, and the trails across the desert. Beneath the guards' outpost was a restaurant: four rooms with many ovens that must have offered respite to visitors entering and leaving Tebtunis. Digging still deeper unearthed the first pharaonic building so far found in Tebtunis.

The desert begins south of the outpost. No structures were found, only a dumping ground where many generations of Tebtunis' citizens hauled their rubbish. On this immensely productive hill of refuse  4 meters (13 feet) high, 30 meters (98 feet) across  our team has collected thousands of pieces of pottery, many other artifacts, and hundreds of documents written on papyri, ostraka (potsherds), tablets, and bones.

All the texts date from the third century B.C. up to the second century A.D., and while about half are written in Greek, others give testimony to the multicultural nature of the city. A few are Egyptian hieroglyphic texts, and many are written in the simplified "demotic" hieroglyphic form; others in Aramaic show that Hebrews lived at Tebtunis.

We now count over 4,000 texts, many of them fragments of Greek literature, especially copies of works by Homer, plus poetry, oratory, medicine, even schoolbooks for ancient children. The documentary papyri deal with every aspect of life. We can read private letters, accounts, contracts, and public documents such as petitions, tax receipts, and various edicts. Papyrologists become detectives, reconstructing this ancient way of life, as revealed by those who lived it.

This past season, excavations revealed, beneath a Roman tower-house, a spectacular public bathhouse from the third century B.C. As it fell into disrepair after about a century, other baths were built next to it. The oldest structure included beautiful stone basins, showers, and an oven to heat the bathwater.

Later baths, sprawling over 700 square meters (7,500 square feet), are clearly divided into male and female sections. Drainage and heating systems  including a cistern to collect water, plus ovens, hearths, and insulated walls  completed these "thermae," which are also described in detail by the papyri.

A row of courtyards and a beautiful "exedra" (a portico where people relaxed and chatted) emphasize the fashionable taste of Tebtunis' elite. The baths even included small wells to collect the dirty water, which was recycled for irrigation or construction.

We are only beginning to tell the long story of Tebtunis and to recover the crucial archaeological and written materials that hold its many secrets. A huge challenge remains in just cleaning, restoring, and interpreting the structures, artifacts, and texts recovered so far. Scholars from around the world  France, Italy, America, Belgium, Austria, Poland, Germany, Egypt  have been drawn to the wealth of information that is available.

The Egyptian Supreme Council for Antiquities supports the excavations and plans on opening the site to tourists soon. Meanwhile, the story of the city on the edge of the desert is slowly coming clear.

M. LAURETTA MOIOLI is with the Dipartimento di Scienze dell'Antichit` at the Universit` degli Studi in Milan and has translated many of the Tebtunis papyri. She works closely with Claudio Gallazzi, director of the Tebtunis excavations.

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-- Anonymous, March 27, 2000

Are you ready for 'the mark of the Beast?'

He's ready for you!!

-----Original Message----- From: Neenahep@aol.com To: humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com Date: Sunday, March 12, 2000 10:18 AM Subject: [humptydumptyy2k] Brain implants

Ed,

The article below says that Steve Potter, senior research fellow at Caltech, is experimenting now with brain implants:

[While some scientists believe we can bridge the hardware/wetware gap and transmit external data through neural clusters elsewhere in the body, Potter is pursuing the cranial route as a digital gateway to the brain.

This interface, while still primitive, is the foundation for technology that will help us eradicate conditions like paralysis and steer our cars with our minds, controlling the increasingly computerized world around us at the speed of thought.

The most obvious near-term application for this type of technology would, for instance, give a patient an artificial limb that could respond to their brain's instructions as their real arm did. Steve Otto, audiologist for the Auditory Brainstem Implant Project at the House Ear Institute in Los Angeles, thinks it likely that between new design and ever improving ways of coding sensory data for the brain, we will someday be able to build completely implantable devices that interface microscopically with parts of the normal system that are still physiologically functional. "Perhaps implants will enhance normal perception, function, or performance," he adds. "Or we'll have ESP for everyone." ]

Auditory Brainstem Implant Project at the House Ear Institute in Los Angeles. Wow. This implant reality is coming just as fast as Furland predicted in "Transfer". Potter is thinking along the same lines as cybernetic researcher Kevin Warwick (featured on the cover of "Wired" last month) who is getting his a second implant in his arm soon and believes that we all have to become cyborgs to compete with computers. The article says:

[After that, he hopes to someday connect with an artificial intelligence stupendously smarter than we are, which will show us how to move beyond our limits. "I decided in the course of my research - and as the result of a lot of undergraduate soul-searching in the Reagan era, when I had frequent nightmares of a Dr. Strangelove scenario - that what humans need is to be a lot smarter," he says. "Just look at how many amazing things are done by a computer that weighs only a couple pounds, consumes only about 100 watts, and lasts 100 years."]

"An intelligence stupendously smarter than we are". Hmmm. Some people feel that there is already an Intelligence in the Universe stupendously smarter than we are. I am always left with the impression that we are trying to create a digital deity to worship while ignoring the vast intelligence in the universe which we all share. So many cultures have explored the potential of the human mind beyond the level we consider normal in the West. Is it so smart of us to ignore what we already have and try to create a machine that is "smarter" than we are? Why not focus first on developing the human potential to the max and then see if anything is left lacking?

The author makes light of implants and fails to discuss the obvious privacy issues and compromises of freedom when he says:

[Some people - me, for instance - might wonder how good an idea it is to devote a life's work to making our brains obsolete. But I take comfort in the thought that by the time Potter's way-smart computer arrives, people of my generation will be fitted with cranial implants that can hear our children's eyes roll as we pine for the days when Homo sapiens was still the most intelligent thing on the planet.]

Potter concludes by saying:

["I am sure that we are missing some very fundamental things about how brains do what they do ... but jacking in is already a reality with my Palm III," says Potter, whipping his PDA out from a hip holster he designed himself. "This makes me quite a bit smarter."]

Does a Palm III make you smarter - or just wired to a lot of information which may be of value or not? Why are we so hell bent on this digital future and implants with so little time or reflection on the many human implications of such a step?

Neenah ======================================= http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.02/potter.html

Archive | 8.02 - Feb 2000 | Feature

Neuromaster

For Caltech's Steve Potter, the road to brain implants begins with a virtual rat.

By Sean Stewart

"There!" says Steve Potter, pointing to a wave of spikes flashing across his 20-inch computer monitor. A second later, a roar of static comes from the desktop speakers, like thunder following lightning.

Potter is a senior research fellow in biology working at the California Institute of Technology's Biological Imaging Center in Pasadena, California, and I'm standing at the output end of his four-year project to build the first multichannel, two-way neural interface.

While some scientists believe we can bridge the hardware/wetware gap and transmit external data through neural clusters elsewhere in the body, Potter is pursuing the cranial route as a digital gateway to the brain.

At the back of Potter's lab is the input end of his project - a 1.5-centimeter dish that contains a living layer of rat neurons growing over a microelectrode array. The MEA records neural activity, then sends it to an SGI 540 workstation that renders the data into the neural seismograph I'd just watched streak across Potter's monitor.

The neural pulses received by the MEA can be fed into pattern-recognition software that responds in real time by selectively firing the MEA's electrodes. In other words, the computer pretends to be the body attached to the "brain" lying in the dish. This interface, while still primitive, is the foundation for technology that will help us eradicate conditions like paralysis and steer our cars with our minds, controlling the increasingly computerized world around us at the speed of thought.

Last spring, Potter received $1.2 million from the National Institutes of Health to grow his virtual rat, which performs a fiendishly ingenious end run around the biggest obstacle in neurological research: Traditionally, you can either examine a brain slice's dead cells long after they've stopped doing anything interesting, or you can watch a live animal learn and behave. In either case, you never get to see what's happening at the cellular level. Until now.

As Potter's thousands of neurons go about the task of perceiving their computer-simulated world and organizing themselves to make sense of it, he can watch everything they do - cell by cell and second by second. His instruments: the MEA, a high-speed camera that can capture neural events in real time, and the two-photon scanning microscope he put together himself in 1994 that lets him study living neurons at submicron resolution without harming them.

The input ports on this particular slab of neural goo allow Potter to watch living neurons going about their business as he feeds them simple signals. "We have just parachuted into the jungle, and we think we know the humans from the gorillas," says Potter. "We have begun setting off firecrackers and have seen a response. The next step is to do a lot of eavesdropping, then we try to repeat the phonemes we hear, and see if more intelligible responses come." Potter expects his computer to "speak" in response to the neurons' firing patterns within six months. Only then will the true feedback loop begin.

The most obvious near-term application for this type of technology would, for instance, give a patient an artificial limb that could respond to their brain's instructions as their real arm did. Steve Otto, audiologist for the Auditory Brainstem Implant Project at the House Ear Institute in Los Angeles, thinks it likely that between new design and ever improving ways of coding sensory data for the brain, we will someday be able to build completely implantable devices that interface microscopically with parts of the normal system that are still physiologically functional. "Perhaps implants will enhance normal perception, function, or performance," he adds. "Or we'll have ESP for everyone."

In 1994, Bruce McNaughton, a psychology professor at the University of Arizona, and postdoctoral student Matt Wilson recorded neural patterns in the brains of rats as they foraged for food - then caught them dreaming about it afterward as electrodes picked up the same firing patterns in the sleeping rats. These results are significant because they indicate that animals can rehearse physical activities in the motor cortex without actually moving.

But can the process be reversed - in humans? If I spent a day at the basketball court shooting free throws and compiling a good scan of my neural activity, could I fire up those same neural patterns later and keep "practicing" my shot - even optimizing it - while I slept?

"Sure, your dream-sleep learning example is probably not a bad idea," Potter tells me. "I'd love to do something more useful during that third of my life."

In the meantime, his virtual-rat project faces a number of technical challenges, such as how exactly he's going to pull patterns out of data streaming in from his dish of neurons at 2.3 Mbytes per second, per channel - enough to max out a multigig hard disk in one afternoon. If you were using the same technology to record input from every neuron in a human brain, you'd get 150 million Gbytes of data per minute - enough to fill a 194-mile-high stack of CD-ROMs in 60 seconds.

Potter thinks Moore's law and advances in data storage will solve that problem - so long as he has only 60 channels recording from a few hundred neurons. But he must still figure out how to analyze volumes of real-time data and fine-tune his inputs so he can quickly feed coherent information back through the MEA to his virtual rat.

After that, he hopes to someday connect with an artificial intelligence stupendously smarter than we are, which will show us how to move beyond our limits. "I decided in the course of my research - and as the result of a lot of undergraduate soul-searching in the Reagan era, when I had frequent nightmares of a Dr. Strangelove scenario - that what humans need is to be a lot smarter," he says. "Just look at how many amazing things are done by a computer that weighs only a couple pounds, consumes only about 100 watts, and lasts 100 years."

Some people - me, for instance - might wonder how good an idea it is to devote a life's work to making our brains obsolete. But I take comfort in the thought that by the time Potter's way-smart computer arrives, people of my generation will be fitted with cranial implants that can hear our children's eyes roll as we pine for the days when Homo sapiens was still the most intelligent thing on the planet.

"I am sure that we are missing some very fundamental things about how brains do what they do ... but jacking in is already a reality with my Palm III," says Potter, whipping his PDA out from a hip holster he designed himself. "This makes me quite a bit smarter."

Sean Stewart writes science fiction from his home in Monterey, California. His most recent book is Mockingbird.

Previous Story: Cyborg 1.0

Next Story: Making It Morph

Copyright ) 1993-2000 The Condi Nast Publications Inc. All rights reserved.

Copyright ) 1994-2000 Wired Digital, Inc. All rights reserved.

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-- Anonymous, March 27, 2000

Please read Zechariah in the RSV ~ entire chapter.

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2000

Correction:

ENTIRE BOOK.

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2000

This fits here as much as it fits on the 'Bible Translations' thread.

Hi Connie,

The comments on the various Bible translations were balanced and for the most part accurate, in my opinion. I would add that in my opinion again, the Revised Standard Version is the most accurate translation when it comes to end-times prophecy. Without the RSV I would not have been able to understand some of the end-times prophecies.

Chuck

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2000

From March 21:

Sam: Yes, I am serious about this. What do you make of the various verses which put off the explanation, especially regarding prophecy? The main one which comes to mind:

Daniel 12:

8: And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9: And he said: 'Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10: Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

It goes on to the taking away of the daily sacrifice, with some of the numerical symbolism some of you have talked about. I'm sure you will be happy to share that with us. This is for discussion and hones our weapons for dealing with the unbelieving world.

In developing this material, the author's purpose was to witness to the unbelievers around him when he was in college in the 60s. He wanted to find out what God had to say in His Word. He was as surprised as we are when he found out what the Word says on this topic.

Believe it or not, I am working on keeping my promises, but a busy life is getting in the way.

In Him

-- Connie (hive@gte.net), March 21, 2000.

I haven't forgotten, but my friend at church has the only copy I have of the complete 'Restoration Movement' thread ~ the long one ~ and I have most of my notes on the back of each page that I gave him. I don't want to do all that work again, so it will be at least next Sunday before I can even look at it again, and then I have to complete the study and writing out and transferring to the computer.

I never stated when I would respond ~ and, indeed, I'm not even sure anyone except Lee cares ~ and the ostracism is O.K. ~ I accept it.

In His Love

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2000

Ken,

Hmmm... interesting. Donella Meadows was part of the "system dynamics" movement at MIT back in the early 70s, working with Jay Forrester's group that published a book called "The Limits to Growth" in 1972. It was basically a "world model" that extrapolated then- current trends in population growth, pollution, energy consumption etc etc, and predicted that within 30 years, we would be in a complete state of crisis. The report was presented at a conference sponsored by the Club of Rome, and it generated enormous debate -- mostly because people disagreed with some of the basic assumptions that had been built into the model.

Some time after that, I believe Professor Meadows moved up to Dartmouth ... but in any case, another book came out sometime in the 1990s called "Beyond the Limits to Growth" -- which basically argued that all of the "critical indicators" about pollution, population, energy, etc. had already moved into the "red zone," suggesting that we were basically doomed, but hadn't figured it out quite yet, sort of like someone who is riddled with terminal cancer, but still walking around...

Shortly after the Y2K rollover, I gather that Professor Meadows wrote a scathing review of the Y2K "pessimists", arguing that there was never any chance of things going seriously wrong, and that everyone who predicted such an outcome was incompetent, crazy, or a scam artist. Given her background in system dynamics, many of us were astounded -- not only by the basic position she was taking, but also by the intensity of her criticism. Tom Atlee wrote a very long, very diplomatic "open letter" to her about the whole situation, but I don't think she ever responded.

And now she's on to the biotech movement ... well, it's a good cause for her to pick up, and aside from her relatively bizarre outburst about Y2K, I think she's in a good position to articulate some of the "ripple-effect" consequences of today's scientists messing around with gene splicing and other such things...

Ed ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------- Edward Yourdon, phone/fax: 888-814-7605 email: ed@yourdon.com Web: http://www.yourdon.com Chairman, Cutter Consortium: http://www.cutter.com/consortium/ Editor, Cutter IT Journal: http://www.cutter.com/itjournal/index.html Chairman, Cutter Summit Conference Apr 10-12: http://www.cutter.com/summit/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------

From: "Ken Garen" Reply-To: humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:18:44 -0700 To: Subject: [humptydumptyy2k] MOMENTS OF SHOCKED SILENCE ABOUT BIOTECH

The Global Citizen March 16, 2000

Donella H. Meadows Sustainability Institute P.O. Box 174 Hartland Four Corners VT 05049 603-646-1233 (O) 802-436-1355 (H) d.meadows@dartmouth.edu

MOMENTS OF SHOCKED SILENCE ABOUT BIOTECH

Biotech stocks plummeted this week as President Clinton and British Prime Minister Tony Blair requested that companies make their data on the human genome public.

Private firms are racing madly to read and patent the genetic code that makes you you and me me. They are trying to beat publicly funded labs, which are required as a condition of their grants to publish the gene sequences they unravel. One company, Celera Genomics, is funded by drug companies with the understanding that the funders will see the code before anyone else does.

If it strikes you as alarming that private investors can patent and keep secret and sell something that sits within every cell of your body, you ought to pay much closer attention to the new, jaw- dropping biotech industry. I have just spent several weeks with my students listening to biotech enthusiasts, critics, and a lot of folks in between. There were three particular moments I'd like to tell you about, all of them moments of stunned silence.

The first came when we heard from an ecologist who sits on a USDA panel that approves the release of genetically engineered crop plants. Of the 71 applications currently pending, one is for the implantation of the gene by which scorpions make their toxin. Splice that gene into a plant, and anything that nibbles on a leaf, from woodchucks to bugs, falls down dead. Of course people who eat the plant fall down dead too, so there must also be a package of genes to turn the scorpion gene on and off. Turn it on in the roots and leaves and stems, turn it off in the flower and fruit.

But what happens to the poison, the students asked, when roots or leaves decompose in the soil? What happens if the turn-off gene doesn't work infallibly? Would we have to check every fruit or grain for traces of scorpion poison?

Don't know, said the ecologist.

Silence.

The second moment came when a geneticist described a new rice with a pasted-in gene that allows the plant to make and store beta-carotene, the yellow pigment from which our bodies make vitamin A. Thousands of poor children in Asia, who eat little but rice, go blind or die for lack of vitamin A. The "golden rice" could solve that problem.

A hand went up, and one of the students asked, "Why not just splice the beta-carotene gene into the child?"

Silence.

Finally another visiting expert said, "Within five years that could be possible. Fasten your seat belts."

More silence. I guess everyone's mind was racing as mine was. I was picturing golden children. Then I thought, why not splice in the gene for chlorophyll while we're at it, and just send the kids out in the sun to photosynthesize their lunch? Gold-green children.

Moment number three came when I showed the students a documentary called "The Day After Trinity." It's the story of J. Robert Oppenheimer, the developer of the atomic bomb, told through interviews with some of the great physicists who worked with him at Los Alamos during the Second World War.

The cause was compelling: to stop Hitler. The science was thrilling. The effort was tremendous. The bomb was nearing completion when Hitler surrendered in May, 1945.

That surrender did not cause any slowdown in the work at Los Alamos. There was too much excitement. It was nearly time for the first test, called Trinity, which took place at Alamogordo, New Mexico, on July 16. The scientists said that on that day, as they watched the first atom bomb explosion in history, their reaction was joyous. "It worked!"

Less than a month later, when a similar bomb incinerated 100,000 people at Hiroshima, one scientist said his first thought was, "Thank goodness it wasn't a dud." His second thought was, "Oh my God, what have we done?"

The film ends with Oppenheimer testifying in Washington two decades later. When asked by a senator how to contain the nuclear arms race, Oppenheimer answered, "It's 20 years too late. We should have done it the day after Trinity."

I turned on the lights. The students just sat there. Didn't move. Didn't say a word. I couldn't either.

Geneticists are already cloning sheep and cows and mice and pigs. They can pick out a trait from almost any creature and paste it into any other, and they are on the verge of being able to turn a gene on or off at will. We already plant gene-spliced crops on tens of millions of acres. We can order genes from catalogs. Within a few years we will be able to read the code for our very selves and reach in and tinker with it. It is only a matter of time before hackers appear who think it might be fun, as computer hackers do, to create and release their own viruses.

The stock market is speculating on this stuff. National leaders ask companies, politely, to make their knowledge available to all. We need to do much more that, more than just fasten our seatbelts and go along for the ride. We need to slow down and think together about where this technology is going and who should own it and who should decide.

For genomics it is still the day after Trinity. We don't want or need to have to ask, helplessly, "Oh my God, what have we done?"

(Donella Meadows is an adjunct professor at Dartmouth College and director of the Sustainability Institute in Hartland, Vermont.)

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Just so we lift our heads out of the sand once in awhile:

On the Human Genome Project, Francis Collins, who went to the U. of Michigan and is a Christian, directs the project for the National Institutes of Health. I found this out when I was taking my Medical Terminology and Gerontology courses. The January 10, 2000, issue of U.S. News and World Report has an article starting on page 34 titled 'The Gene Hunters' about this project. Dr. Collins is shown on page 36 and his favorite book is shown as 'Mere Christianity' by CS Lewis.

I heard him on C-Span a couple of weeks ago talking about this project.

Its main thrust is to find ways to use DNA to cure diseases and slow aging. I thought you might find this interesting.

As to 'ordering genes from catalogues' as stated above, I wonder how many people are aware that the SEEDS we buy today to plant in our gardens are all hybridized, thanks to Monsanto. (No one can have a garden without Monsanto). Do you know what that means?

It means that the seeds you save to plant next year (if you wanted to do that, as we used to,) will not germinate. They have been treated so that they will only grow for this growing season. You can buy non- hybridized seed, but it is quite expensive, and not easily available.

Now, the crops give higher yields with hybridized seed, so there is a strong incentive to use that kind. But should there ever come a time when we did not have access to a ready supply, it could help create famine.

Makes one go: "H-m-m-m-m...."

In Christ,

-- Anonymous, March 28, 2000

So that this isn't a soliloquy:

Russ,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about the article with us. After a bit of needling from Neenah this morning, I just finished reading the article myself. I'm still trying to formulate my reaction and assessment, but I tend to agree with you -- especially on the topic of AI forming a serious threat to mankind in the next couple of decades. The fact that hardware will be one million times more powerful than today doesn't necessarily mean that we'll be able to build "smarter" software, except insofar as it's possible to do so through brute force. To use your "low blow" example of chess-playing programs, a millionfold-faster computer could probably extend the "tree" of move/counter-move/counter-counter-move analysis one or two more levels, but I don't think it would qualitatively change the ability of the program.

I do think he's got a valid point, though, in saying that some of this potentially dangerous and destructive technology is now cheap enough that it can be employed by small groups, or even individuals. He makes a big point of reminding us that in WW II, atomic weapons could only be built by massive investments of a few advanced countries; but today, a frightening array of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons can be assembled by almost any lone crackpot. And the cyber-warfare stuff is equally scary to me: the fact that a neurotic teenager can successfully attack sophisticated computer systems is just a small indication of what a group of highly trained experts could do if they chose to...

I've got to do some more thinking about other aspects of his article -- but it definitely IS something that all of us should read ... and you can find it at http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html

Ed ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- Edward Yourdon, phone/fax: 888- 814-7605 email: ed@yourdon.com Web: http://www.yourdon.com Chairman, Cutter Consortium: http://www.cutter.com/consortium/ Editor, Cutter IT Journal: http://www.cutter.com/itjournal/index.html Chairman, Cutter Summit Conference Apr 10-12: http://www.cutter.com/summit/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------

From: "Russ BigDog" Reply-To: humptydumptyy2k@eGroups.com Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 17:43:51 -0800 To: humptydumptyy2k@eGroups.com Subject: [humptydumptyy2k] My answer to Joy's article - "The Future Doesn't Need Us"

(This is my analysis and response to Bill Joy's article in the April, 2000 issue of Wired Magazine. Note: it is cross-posted to our EZBoard forum (http://pub5.ezboard.com/fyourdontimebomb2000.showMessage?topicID =1477.topic), though I will respond to posts here as well as there. While I take issue with a number of his points, this is must reading for anyone interested in the ethical implications of our hottest new technologies. Get it. Read it. Think about it. Many of you already are, I know.)

Bill Joy is a famous geek. Bill Joy is scared. The question is, if he is, should we be?

His lengthy article in this month's Wired magazine (April 2000) is important not so much for what he says (it's not particularly new, profound or even logical) but because he says it. With rare exceptions, there has been a dearth of self-reflection on the part of Silicon Valley  this while much of our world is being reshaped in the image of the products and services that are being created there (either directly or indirectly).

Not coincidentally, one of the few people thinking philosophically about computation is Ray Kurzweil, whose meeting with Joy and whose book published soon afterward (titled significantly, "Spiritual Machines"), affected Joy profoundly.

Oversimplifying, Kurzweil falls into the camp of those who believe that mankind will be obsoleted in the twenty-first century by his own technologies  and, especially, artificial intelligence and robotics. A strong believer in evolution, Kurzweil views this as mainly a very positive prospect.

Joy had been someone who either discarded such thinking as fantastic or largely inconsequential ethically. The combination of the meeting with Kurzweil, a subsequent meeting with Danny Hillis who subscribes to similar views and, notably, Joy's awakening to the prospects of genetic engineering, caused him great alarm.

Understanding from within how dicey and complex computer design is and how often it yields unexpected results, Joy is particularly concerned about self-replicating programs and technologies. These have the ability (indeed, are explicitly designed) to generate copies of themselves that, in some respects, do more than the original was designed to do or, at least, behave unpredictably when compared to their original. It has long been known that this can yield "interesting" results (generally considered "positive").

Joy asks why we are sure this(that is, positive rather than catastrophic outcomes) will come to pass. More precisely, he asks why we feel so certain that the results might not be devastating, even fatal, to human and biotic life on this earth. For instance, self-replicating genetic experiments, or, worse, malevolently designed experiments, could wipe out life long before an antidote could be developed.

Where Kurzweil sees the likely results as beneficial and Hillis, more fatalistically, as inevitable, Joy asks why we shouldn't "relinquish" certain technologies as conceivable and implementable but undesirable to human beings.

He cites as his primary example the case of nuclear weapons. While the jury is still out, alas, much of the world has agreed to relinquish their use and, in some cases, their technology itself.

I will return to this in a moment.

While Bill Joy is an authentic genius in the fields of applied computing, he is not a particularly keen philosophical thinker. To begin with, he fails to address the problematic nature of the artificial intelligence research to date. Dreyfus, Searles and others have argued that machine intelligence remains an authentic contradiction in terms.

Kurzweil and others wave their hands in response and cite the brute power of tomorrow's machines and chess algorithms (that's a bit of a low blow on my part, I admit) as proof positive that we will be supplanted by robotic intelligences. They may be right, but this argument has been made now for 30 years, with scant evidence to substantiate it.

I suspect Joy is on firmer ground with respect to genetic engineering, though I cannot speak from professional experience  nor can he.

What can be said is that immense knowledge (lore) about human, animal and vegetable genetic makeup is passing into the public sphere, far outracing feeble attempts to access the impact of their use on ecological systems.

He notes that, by contrast with the nuclear age, this knowledge and the ability to wield it, does not seem to require massive capital outlays or, at least, not those beyond the scope of commercial enterprises who are mainly unregulated. Worse, although he presents no persuasive evidence to this, is the possibility of individuals gaining access to such knowledge and wielding it murderously against entire populations or ecosystems. The sheer fact that we cannot reasonably quantify the likelihood of this eventuality (which ranges from near-zero to near-certain) is amply alarming.

Joy proposes industry and national efforts to think through these issues before it is too late. This is a no-brainer. Indeed, we need to restore this type of thinking on a host of critical issues, of which this is certainly an important one. Note that it intersects issues of liberty, privacy and rights to information that are already recognized elsewhere as pivotal to our lives over the coming decades. Who should know what, when and how about 'x'? And who regulates access to such knowledge?

Where he gets fuzzier is on the motivational glue that will bring this to pass. Joy appeals to the ethics and theology of Tibetan Buddhism and, specifically, the Dalai Lama, for one model.

This model, under the rubric of "fraternity", would take us beyond a several century fixation on "economics" as the basis for human happiness and, in theory, pave the way for an ethics of "relinquishment". Unfortunately, Joy's essay seems to peter out from this point, with him rather feebly expressing personal confidence in our human future: "it is because of our great capacity for caring that I remain optimistic we will confront the dangerous issues now before us."

Maybe. But we are just emerging from the bloodiest century in human history, pockmarked by a Hitler, Stalin and Mao-Tse Tung as well as by nuclear brinksmanship.

We are also in the midst of an ethical confusion worldwide that is paralyzing, seemingly without possessing the basis for the type of consensus required even as a mere foundation for making "relinquishment" decisions.

The week after this issue of Wired came out, IBM announced that they have already solved most of the problems for a self-replicating disk technology that will revolutionize one aspect of computing (cf pub5.ezboard.com/fyourdon...5.topic).

Let this stand as confirmation of one of Joy's own points  we are already very close to, if not beyond, the point of no return in the development of some of these technologies.

Returning to my own theme here, I give tremendous credit to Joy for his willingness not only to raise these issues but to take personal responsibility for his role in them. As he says in this essay, should he come to believe that the world he is involved in creating now endangers human life, he will oppose his own work of creation (and, with evident sadness, he acknowledges this as a real possibility). Both he and Wired are to be commended for hitting this matter head-on.

However, this is, at best, a call for a far deeper consideration of the issues involved than Joy himself is perhaps capable of offering.

"Fraternity" is of small moment to the corporations eagerly plunging into the pandora's box of self-replication, robotics and genetic engineering. This has nothing to do with inherent evil in them so much as with far more subtle  and perhaps, ultimately, more terrifying  dynamics which make all of us mere victims of our culture.

The really frightening aspect, far more frightening than explicit human conspiracies, is that "no one" is at the controls  neither governments, IBM, elite individuals or Bill Joy. The applied technological "dynamic" is mainly heedless of any nibbling around the edges.

Or, to put it another way, the nuclear example seems to indicate that only a march to the absolute brink can galvanize the world sufficiently to provoke even moderate relinquishment  and it shouldn't be forgotten that nuclear weapons were used twice.

This said, we are not fated to repeat this with the technologies described by Joy. But we had better understand that hopes for fraternity and paeans to "caring" are not going to get the job done. >From that point of view, Kurzweil and Hillis, alas, are far more realistic about future prospects than Bill Joy.

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Philosophically, I do not agree with any of these writers. But if they are frightened, should we not be aware?

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2000

Thanks George!

Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:48:37 -0500 From: George Cordahi To: Roleigh Martin Subject: Re: 'idee fix'

TAIWAN. If the present trends, policies and underlying idee fixe [sic] are not changed in the U.S., a Sino-American war

Litterally 'idee fixe' (French) means "fixed idea". In this context, it means "obsession"or "unexamined belief". The implication is that the US is acting on the basis of obsessions, and does not critically reflect on its beliefs.

gc

-- George Cordahi Personal Business Mississauga Ontario

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- To have a message of yours considered for posting, send it to: timeless_eye-owner@eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: timeless_eye-unsubscribe@eGroups.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Anonymous, March 30, 2000

Neenah,

Please know that after reading Bill Joy's article,i recommended it to a young physics major who works in one of our computer labs, and he told me yesterday that the article had a profound impact on him. So much so that he is now considering changing his major to law, because he feels that he can make a difference in helping to shape the legal/ethical framework that these new technologies will need. I also recommended the article to a middle-aged woman from India who's working on her PhD in sociology. She had recently discussed with me her concern over the societal impact of genetic engineering and robotics even before reading Joy's article [which she now plans to do.]

Repeat this scenario around the country and we may find that Joy's decision to speak out now - while we still have a window of opportunity - will ripple out courage and inspiration to circles of influence, both now and in the future, that he himself could have barely imagined.

farida 'Do you think you can pick a rose without risking the thorns?' ~tamil proverb ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ ~~~~~~~

<>

---------------------------------------------------------------------- It might not be a bad idea to keep Joseph (who prepared in the good years for the bad ones); Noah -- we know his story, too --; the 'Go to the ant, you sluggard', of Proverbs; and the 5 wise vigins and 5 foolish virgins ~ Got oil?

-- Anonymous, March 30, 2000

html fix

-- Anonymous, March 30, 2000

I don't know how to fix the html. What do I do? As I type it here, it is the way it always is, that is, the font is Arial 8 or 10 with no italicization.

By trying to clean up the air we have poisoned our water supply. A classic example of failing to consider the consequences of an EPA dictum. This is 1/3 of Dallas' water supply. MBTE was never properly evaluated for its impact on life forms and those that raised questions were disregarded in the rush to clean up the smog. Now the choice is between emphysema and cancer.

"If the right one doesn't get you than the left one will" -Tennessee Ernie Ford

http://dallasnews.com/metro/56893_TAWAKONI30.html

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Mankind/humankind is outsmarting itself.

-- Anonymous, March 31, 2000

At least it's quiet in here. ;-)

-- Anonymous, March 31, 2000

Galatians 4:9-12: [AMPLIFIED]

It goes on to say (in vs. 9-12 and on) to say that we are not to return to elementary things where we insist on legalisms, which we have been freed from, enumerating some of them. We are free in Christ! His Spirit, if we are in Him, is in our hearts.

We don't have a dead Gospel, where everything has already been revealed; it's just that what has been revealed and will be revealed has to agree with what is written in God's word.

I pray we can start listening to each other, and hearing each other.

Having been gifted with Eternal Life, and that life is in His Son, and God the Father has gifted me with the Holy Spirit of His Son into my heart. May He do the same for you. Praise His Holy Name.

-- Connie (hive@gte.net), March 28, 2000.

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We don't have a dead Gospel, where everything has already been revealed; it's just that what has been revealed and will be revealed HAS TO AGREE WITH WHAT IS WRITTEN IN GOD'S WORD.

-- Anonymous, April 01, 2000

Ed,

I see that there were a lot of responses to my email last week "Microsoft has gone too far".

I probably should not have mixed in a discussion of the banks with the subject of software licensing (Microsoft now limiting use of software to one CPU) because the banks issue is so large. I'll just reply briefly to all the responses here because I don't want to debate either of these issues. I respect that others may hold views different from mine. I am not suggesting that my views are "right". I articulated them in the hope of finding people who agree and perhaps to get those who may not have considered these issues to give some thought to them.

Banks

Those who are comfortable having the banks ask where they get their money and how they spend it, putting limits on how much cash they can deposit and withdraw, etc. will not agree with my privacy concerns. To say that the banks are only doing what is required by law is to miss the point the the government is corporate-controlled and only does what it is told to do by the corporations, chief among them the banks!

The "reason" given for turning all depositors into potential criminals and violating our privacy is the drug war. In the same way, privacy advocates point out that the government wishes to criminalize every citizen and get permission to eavesdrop on all digital communication (phones, email, etc.) in the effort to stop crime. One of the most impressive protections of our system of laws is the underlying philosophy that it is better to let 10 guilty people go free than to wrongly accuse/imprision one innocent person. Innocent until proven guilty. Protection ungainst unwarranted search. These are protections we should not lightly abandon in exchange for protection against drugs, especially when many reports suggest that the government's role in the drug war is complicated, to say the least. We'll leave it at that.

We were not on a fractional reserve system when we were on the gold standard. Every paper dollar could be redeemed for gold at any time. Those who are interested in understanding more about the history of the Fed and fractional reserve banking might enjoy the book "The Case Against the Fed". It is just one of many showing how the Fed is responsible for the inflation it is commissioned to control and causes any one of a number of other problems for our economy and system of government.

Software Licensing

Again, those who are comfortable with laws being written in Redmond rather than by Congress may not mind if Microsoft tells them that it is now "illegal" to use software which they purchased and OWN on more than one computer. It is true that when I own a book, I cannot legally copy it and distribute to others, especially for profit. However, I can read it at home, at work, on the train, at the beach, etc. after paying for it just once. This should also apply to software. I agree that the purchaser of software should not be free to "copy" it and distribute to others - because of exactly the experience I have had at work where my software was copied and put on 5 PCs. The users of the pirated software have no documentation or access to necessary support.

However, just as with a book, I should be able to use MY software where I chose - on my PC at home, on my laptop whereever I go, at work, etc. Interestingly enough, Microsoft seems to agree. When I called for support of my now pirated software, I was asked if I had installed it more than once! They are able to track installations! I was told that it was no problem that it had been installed more than once, it's just that the product ID I was registered under for support is no longer valid. I was still able to get support.

In fact, Microsoft's technical support told me that I can install the software 15 times. Wow. That's a lot of installation. I can't imagine having that many places to install it before the next upgrade comes out (next week?). It certainly gives enough license for a purchaser to install the software on computers at home, at work, and to lend it to friends and family members. It should obviously not extend to a whole department at work. Five of my 15 lives got used up against my will.

Anyway, my overall point is that we are losing both our privacy and our freedom to the likes of DoubleClick, the banks, and those who issue new "laws" for us to follow. My suggestion is simply that we be aware of this loss and not acquiesce to it blindly when avoidable. I understand that others may not share that view.

Neenah

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-- Anonymous, April 01, 2000

Neenah,

You have to be a little sympathetic to Yardeni -- after all, he was the ONLY reputable economist who was issuing warnings on Y2K, and that required him to go WAY, WAY out on a limb. My daughter is an economist, too (and by coincidence, was interviewed by Yardeni for a job when she got out of college in the early 90s), and one of the things she constantly reminds me of is the "herd instinct" of U.S. economists.

During one of the Senate Y2K hearings, someone asked Yardeni if he was planning to get a survivalist retreat if the Y2K situation continued to look worse and worse. He said no, but then joked that he had a friend in New Mexico that he might go to visit if it got really bad. Heh, heh, heh, I thought as I watched it on television from my solar-powered home in Taos....

These magazine/radio/TV interviews are always problematic, because you have a sense that the reporter has basically written the story before he even begins talking to you, and is really only interested in getting some juicy quotes that he can put into the middle of his article. The worst one was Time magazine, which had already planned and scripted a huge article on the religious-fundamentalism aspect of Y2K before they set out to interview a bunch of us who were fairly active in the field. They never mentioned to us in the interviews what "agenda" they had already decided on; if we had known that they were going to have a cover-story with a picture of deranged religious lunatics to illustrate what they thought Y2K was all about, none of us would have participated in the interviews.

So, with that in mind, I'm not surprised that Yardeni was trying to avoid being labelled as a "failed survivalist" in this interview. I'll give credit to Fortune magazine for having run some fairly serious, level-headed articles about the potential economic impact of Y2K throughout 1998 and 1999; they were far better than Forbes, which rejected the whole thing as a hysterical scam.

Ed ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------- Edward Yourdon, phone/fax: 888-814-7605 email: ed@yourdon.com Web: http://www.yourdon.com Chairman, Cutter Consortium: http://www.cutter.com/consortium/ Editor, Cutter IT Journal: http://www.cutter.com/itjournal/index.html Chairman, Cutter Summit Conference Apr 10-12: http://www.cutter.com/summit/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------

From: Neenahep@aol.com Reply-To: humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:51:07 EST To: humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com Subject: [humptydumptyy2k] "Hypester Yardeni is Y2KO'd"

Ed,

I haven't seen the current issue of Fortune magazine in which the forum has mentioned that there is an article about Yardeni and Y2K, but below is an interview which came out at the beginning of this year in which Yardeni said that he was wrong about a 70% chance of a recession and denied making any preparations for Y2K in the following excerpt from the interview:

{A: Well, I always approached this as an economist. I certainly didn't get into any sort of survivalist issues.

Q: You didn't stock up on anything?

A: Did I stock up on anything? Our house is always full of food, so it wasn't necessary.

Q: I saw in another magazine you said you were stocking up on spaghetti, bottled water, flashlights, and extra cash.

A: I don't recall saying that.

Q: It was in Forbes.

A: I don't recall saying that.

Q: They get a lot of things wrong, probably.

A: [Indeterminate grunt.] }

On his website, Yardeni called all last year for the government to take Y2K very seriously and urged that it wage a war on Y2K. He had an online book on Y2K at the site. I attended a Y2K conference in April 1998 where you, he, Tony Keyes, and others spoke. He agreed with all of you. To deny now that he stocked up even on spaghetti, bottled water, flashlights, and extra cash seems to me to be irresponsible in the extreme.

However, his current position is to me less reprehensible than Alan Greenspan's. After all, Greenspan warned unequivocably that the banking system would collapse with anything less than 100% compliance in banks. That's a bit stronger than predicting a 70% chance of a recession. If Yardeni has any explaining to do about Y2K, I think that he should get in line behind Greenspan and let the head of the Fed and America's chief banker lead the explanations! Why isn't Fortune interviewing Greenspan? Why doesn't Yardeni mention the famous Greenspan prediction?

Neenah

-- Anonymous, April 02, 2000

Nope. The Romans used it up, putting the 'Imperial Purple' stripe on their togas.

Tina Thomas

>>> Ed Yourdon 04/03 8:36 AM >>> As for me, I'll take the purple dye any day of the week. Is there any left?

Ed ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ ------------------- Edward Yourdon, phone/fax: 888-814-7605 email: ed@yourdon.com Web: http://www.yourdon.com Chairman, Cutter Consortium: http://www.cutter.com/consortium/ Editor, Cutter IT Journal: http://www.cutter.com/itjournal/index.html Chairman, Cutter Summit Conference Apr 10-12: http://www.cutter.com/summit/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ -------------------

From: "MIS INFORMATION SYSTEMS" Reply-To: humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 07:45:34 -0700 To: humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com Subject: [humptydumptyy2k] Re: Software piracy and the banks

I'm not sure when we went from the gold standard to the silver certificate, (maybe in the 1940's or 1950's?). I do recall that when the silver certificates were recalled various knowledgable people said taht were were on the road to ruin, inflation wise.

Everyone tends to forget that ANY money represents a barter system. We trade something of value for something else of value. Neither gold nor silver need be the standard (Phoenicians used purple dye derived from sea shells), the only requirement is that the object is relatively scarce, and that someone will value it.

I am not uncomfortable with a standard based on man hours. I am VERY uncomfortable with a standard based on a fluctuating market like stocks.

Ultimately, valuable items can be reduced to food, water, and shelter. If you doubt me, just ask a White Russian Emigree who happily traded diamonds for food.

Tina Thomas

>>> "Ken Garen" 04/01 3:51 PM >>> Linda;

You are correct the gold was not to cover every deposit. Neenah was arguing that it was.

The system did not work fine all the time. We have had periods of high inflation with the "gold standard". There is more than one cause of inflation. The government just printing to much money is only one.

If we were tied to having to have a certain amount of gold how could we grow the money supply if more gold were not available?

Ken

From: "Ken Garen" kengaren@earthlink.net

If they had to have gold on hand for all the >deposited money then they could not do so. A gold coupled currency would >limit >the amount of money in circulation to the amount of gold that was in >existence. This clearly would not work.

Ken,

It is my understanding that the gold was not to cover every deposit, but--he who held the redeemable certificate, could go cash it in. Chances are that not all would go cash theirs in at the same time, but they had the right to do so.

I believe that the system clearly did work just fine, and kept the government from inflating the currency and so gathering hidden taxes that way. I would suggest to you the book "The Creature From Jekyll Island" by Griffin.

Linda

"When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes." --Erasmus

______________________________________________________

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-- Anonymous, April 03, 2000

Today's contribution:

Acts 2:17-19: [AMPLIFIED] ~ (written sometime after 62 A.D., probably after 75A.D.) thought to be by Luke:

17: And it shall come to pass IN THE LAST DAYS, God declares, that I will pour out of my Spirit upon all of mankind, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy -- telling forth the divine counsels -- and your young men shall see visions (that is, divinely granted appearances and your old men shall dream [divinely suggested] dreams.

18: yes, and on my menservants and on my maidservants IN THOSE DAYS I will pour out of My Spirit, and they shall prophesy -- telling forth the Divine counsels and predicting future events pertaining especially to God's kingdom.

19: And I will show wonders in the sky above and signs on the earth beneath, BLOOD AND FIRE AND SMOKING VAPOR;

20: The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon into blood, before the obvious day of the Lord comes, that great and notable and conspicuous and renowned [day].

Respectfully, In Him,

-- Anonymous, April 04, 2000

Linda,

You have to understand that Ken, like me, is a computer geek, a master programmer, systems designer, and systems analyst. We computer geeks are sticklers for detail, because the computers we work with are the same way -- one little semi-colon in the wrong place can make a computer-guided rocket go haywire (as has happened on more than one occasion, in both this country and France). So I suspect that Ken will keep up the debate with you until the two of you have exhausted every last possible aspect of the topic.

By the way ... what was the topic again?

Ed -------------------------------------------------------------- Edward Yourdon, phone/fax: 888-814-7605 email: ed@yourdon.com Web: www.yourdon.com Chairman, Cutter Consortium: www.cutter.com/consortium/ Editor, Cutter IT Journal: www.cutter.com/itjournal/index.html --------------------------------------------------------------

From: "ls taylor" Reply-To: humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 15:21:58 GMT To: humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com Subject: Re: [humptydumptyy2k] Re: Software piracy and the banks

Ed,

I love your sense of humor, and how you take the time to treat us each so personally. I enjoy this group very much---except some of the days with Ken, of course. But what the heck---hairdresser just told me I am over 25% gray at age 52--I may as well go for 50-50! ;-)

Linda >Linda, > >Heh heh ... don't give up on poor old Ken. He's just your typical Taoseqo >-- he likes to argue about everything. I had lunch last week with him, and >when I told him the sun was going to come up the next day, he said, "How do >you know?" But he paid for lunch, so I was happy to let him be the >ultimate >iconoclast... > >Ed > >P.S. Lunch was at the Taos Trading Post, at the south end of town. I >recommend it. But don't ask Ken to pay, it's only an infrequent, >unpredictable fit of generosity that leads to such gestures on his part. > > >-------------------------------------------------------------- > Edward Yourdon, phone/fax: 888-814-7605 > email: ed@yourdon.com Web: www.yourdon.com >Chairman, Cutter Consortium: www.cutter.com/consortium/ >Editor, Cutter IT Journal: www.cutter.com/itjournal/index.html >-------------------------------------------------------------- > >From: "ls taylor" >Reply-To: humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com >Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 01:28:11 GMT >To: humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com >Subject: RE: [humptydumptyy2k] Re: Software piracy and the banks > >>Ken, > >I give up. If you do not have any concern for the deviousness of our >present system, the unConstitutionality of Congress giving over the control >of our money to a private corporation of foreigners, the erosion of your >rights as a citizen, and of your buying power via inflation and taxation >(via an amendment that was never even ratified!), I am wasting time better >spent reading my current book, "The Politics of Bad Faith" by David >Horowitz. It is excellent. When I finish it, I will reread "The Creature > >From Jekyll Island" and think, sorrowfully, of your 'innocence.' Bye. > > Linda

>From: "Ken Garen" > >Reply-To: humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com > >To: > >Subject: RE: [humptydumptyy2k] Re: Software piracy and the banks > >Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:44:09 -0600 > > > >Linda; > > > >The gold standard was abandoned around 1970. We had very bad inflation >in > >the > >70's but nowhere close to 1000%. If you can not show how the same people > >would not be able to screw us then what would be the point of changing? > > > >Ken > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: ls taylor [mailto:taylorls@hotmail.com] > >Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 9:44 AM > >To: humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com > >Subject: RE: [humptydumptyy2k] Re: Software piracy and the banks > > > >>Ken, > > > >As mother would say, "Let's cross that bridge when we come to it." How > >are > >you coming on researching the topic and finding the gold and silver which > >used to belong to the American people? I am not going to accept the > >continued robbery of the American people just because there might be a > >different kind of worry if we straighten this one out. That will always >be > >the case. And I'll bet the pile of groceries purchased with $35 back > >then---and the pile of groceries purchased with today's inflated $285, > >would > >nearly match in volume and calories. > > > > Linda > > > > >From: "Ken Garen" > > > > >Linda; > > > > > >A ounce of gold used to be worth $35.00 price pegged by the US > >government. > > >It > > >is now a free market price and is about $285.00 per ounce. How would >you > > >keep > > >the those same folks in DC from controlling the price of gold? This > >would > > >have the same effect as not having a gold standard. > > > > > >Ken > > > > > >>Ken, > > > > > >With all due respect, I still do not agree. We would kick the gold >mines > > >back into full production so that we could legally print more money. >By > > >the > > >way...where is all the American gold???? In whose personal and private > > >pockets has it gone??? Shouldn't we be asking that, instead of trying >to > > >condone the trickery? The law says that the penalty for stealing the > >gold > > >from the Treasury--which belonged to the American people--is to be > >death??? > > >So where is the gold, and who is to be punished?? Please read, "The > > >Creature From Jekyll Island." Your arguement sounds so > >'do-goodish'--like, > > >gee, there just wouldn't be enough to go around for everyone... I'm >sure > > >you mean well---while a group of very rich foreign bankers is stealing >us > > >blind via the private corporation, teasingly named, "The Federal >Researve > > >Banks." > > > Linda > > > > > > >Linda; > > > > > > > >You are not taking population growth into account. If the money >supply > > > >remained the same size and the population grows then there is less >for > > > >everyone. The ultimate result would be hyper inflation. > > > > > > > >Ken > > > > >Ken, > > > > > > > >I think that we should not and would not need to "grow a money >supply." > > > >Eggs would continute to cost about 5 cents, like when my mother was a > > > >child, > > > >instead of the $1.00 that I charge my egg customers. I find that most > > > >things > > > >are relative/still cost a similar percentage of one's wages, except > >those > > > >pushed out of proportion by government spending, overly aggressive > >union > > > >activities, etc. We live about as well now on a teaching wage of > > > >$50,000---as we did with my first teacher pay of $7,262. Our housing > > >takes > > > >out about the same percentage. Our vehicle payment takes out the >same > > > >percentage as our vehicle payment back then. The additional tax >burdan > > > >takes far more; the reduced technology costs take a little less. I > >used > > >to > > > >think that if I ever made $50K I would be living in ease. Wrong. > > > >Inflation > > > >fools our eyes, but not our budgets. The govt likes us moving into > >those > > > >big salaries---it hurries us right up into a higher tax bracket, > >although > > > >our buying power stays the same, since most everything else moves up > > > >comparatively. Again, I would recommend "The Creature From Jekyll > > > >Island." > > > > Linda > > > > > > > > > > > > >Linda; > > > > > > > > > >You are correct the gold was not to cover every deposit. Neenah >was > > > > >arguing > > > > >that it was. > > > > > > > > > >The system did not work fine all the time. We have had periods of > >high > > > > >inflation with the "gold standard". There is more than one cause >of > > > > >inflation. The government just printing to much money is only one. > > > > > > > > > >If we were tied to having to have a certain amount of gold how >could > >we > > > > >grow > > > > >the money supply if more gold were not available? > > > > > > > > > >Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Ken Garen" kengaren@earthlink.net > > > > > > > > > >If they had to have gold on hand for all the > > > > > >deposited money then they could not do so. A gold coupled >currency > > > >would > > > > > >limit > > > > > >the amount of money in circulation to the amount of gold that was > >in > > > > > >existence. This clearly would not work. > > > > > > > > > >Ken, > > > > > > > > > >It is my understanding that the gold was not to cover every >deposit, > > > > >but--he > > > > >who held the redeemable certificate, could go cash it in. Chances > >are > > > >that > > > > >not all would go cash theirs in at the same time, but they had the > > >right > > > >to > > > > >do so. > > > > > > > > > >I believe that the system clearly did work just fine, and kept the > > > > >government from inflating the currency and so gathering hidden >taxes > > >that > > > > >way. I would suggest to you the book "The Creature From Jekyll > >Island" > > > >by > > > > >Griffin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Linda > > > > > > > > > >"When I get a little money, I buy books; > > > > > and if any is left I buy food and clothes." > > > > > --Erasmus >

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Ed,

The article below says:

[The Celera Corporation said today that it has sequenced the human genome, in effect discovering the sequence of DNA molecules in which information on human heredity is inscribed.

The progress is significant because assembling the full sequence could transform the eventual practice of biology and medicine, providing doctors with a roadmap for confronting diseases at the genetic level and programming the human organism to combat them.

Craig Venter, Celera's chairman and chief scientific officer, told Reuters today, "Now that we have completed the sequencing of one human being's genome, we will turn our computational power to the task of ordering the human genome."

Celera, whose operation employs 300 sequencing machines and the largest known civilian computer, last month reported assembling the sequencing of the genome of a fruit fly.]

The speed with which genetics is changing (along with robotics and nanotechnology) is one of the things that has Bill Joy worried. He is asking us to take the time now to think about where we are headed and what the implications will be if we continue on this path.

Neenah ================================================ http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/late/06cnd-human-genome.html

April 6, 2000

Company Says It Has Finished Map of One Person's Genome

Related Articles Celera Genomics Soars After Completing Key Phase of Genome Project Genetics: The Human Genome Project The New York Times on the Web: Science

Video Celera Says It Has Completed First Phase of Genome Map

Diagram The Genome Project: A Primer

Forum Join a Discussion on DNA Research

By CHRISTOPHER S. WREN

The Celera Corporation said today that it has sequenced the human genome, in effect discovering the sequence of DNA molecules in which information on human heredity is inscribed.

Celera, a private company in Rockville, Md., has been racing government-sponsored researchers to decode the human genome, which offers a blueprint to life. The company, which was established barely two years ago, reported that it would now attempt to assemble the genetic fragments in their proper order.

On Wall Street, Celera closed up $22, or 19 percent, at $137 after the announcement today.

Discovering the sequence is an essential step toward mapping the entire human genome, though the real challenge will be to put the sequence together properly. A statement issued by Celera today said that it expected to complete the task over the next few months.

The progress is significant because assembling the full sequence could transform the eventual practice of biology and medicine, providing doctors with a roadmap for confronting diseases at the genetic level and programming the human organism to combat them.

President Clinton announced last month that the United States and Britain had agreed to cooperate by sharing research data to break the codes governing human genetics, and invited private companies to join the effort. But some, like Celera, prefer to proceed alone.

The length of the human genome involves at least three billion bases of DNA, and calculations suggest that the sequence needs to be established a half dozen times to ensure that the assembly is accurate.

The difficulty in comprehending the formula has been that genomes in living creatures contain numerous repeats, which are copies of stretches of DNA that follow nearly identical sequences, confusing the assembly process.

Celera's scientists said earlier this year that they had developed techniques for bridging the repeat stretches to unscramble at least some of them.

The company's research involved establishing the DNA sequence of a single anonymous man. The male gemone is considered scientifically more interesting because it contains both the X and the Y chromosome, while female gemones contain only the X chromosome.

Craig Venter, Celera's chairman and chief scientific officer, told Reuters today, "Now that we have completed the sequencing of one human being's genome, we will turn our computational power to the task of ordering the human genome."

The company next plans to assemble the final human genome sequence from the genes of five anonymous people. This would allow the researchers to compare the donated genes to detect the minute changes that make one human being different from another.

The competing public consortium of researchers subsidized by the government is sequencing a "mosaic" genome in which different segments are taken from about 10 anonymous donors.

Celera, whose operation employs 300 sequencing machines and the largest known civilian computer, last month reported assembling the sequencing of the genome of a fruit fly.

Writing in the magazine Science, two researchers, Eugene W. Myers and Edward Winstead, explained that the assembly began with 3.1 million fragments of the genome, which they desribed as "random bits of fly DNA that have been converted into characters that a computer can read." The fragments, they said, provided enough DNA to cover the genome 14 times over.

The task, they said, had been "to arrange these DNA sequences into a properly ordered and nearly complete genome," by matching the overlapping sequences.

Copyright 2000 The New York Times Company

----------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Anonymous, April 06, 2000

Ken,

Hmmm... I heard just the opposite on one of the Big-3 nightly news TV programs. I think it was Brokaw.

Ed -------------------------------------------------------------- Edward Yourdon, phone/fax: 888-814-7605 email: ed@yourdon.com Web: www.yourdon.com Chairman, Cutter Consortium: www.cutter.com/consortium/ Editor, Cutter IT Journal: www.cutter.com/itjournal/index.html --------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken Garen" Reply-To: humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:29:09 -0600 To: Subject: RE: [humptydumptyy2k] B2B: Bill to Bill

Ed;

I heard the story on CNN.

Ken

-----Original Message----- From: ed@yourdon.com [mailto:ed@yourdon.com] Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 12:58 PM To: humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com Subject: Re: [humptydumptyy2k] B2B: Bill to Bill

Ken,

Well, if that's true (and I would be reluctant to believe it unless I could see some credible confirmation), then it really does make Clinton look like a fairly cheesy opportunist.

Ed -------------------------------------------------------------- Edward Yourdon, phone/fax: 888-814-7605 email: ed@yourdon.com Web: www.yourdon.com Chairman, Cutter Consortium: www.cutter.com/consortium/ Editor, Cutter IT Journal: www.cutter.com/itjournal/index.html --------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ken Garen" Reply-To: humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:19:01 -0600 To: Subject: RE: [humptydumptyy2k] B2B: Bill to Bill

Ed & Neenah;

The story that I heard was that Gates was not going to attend until the verdict was announced.

Ken

-----Original Message----- From: ed@yourdon.com [mailto:ed@yourdon.com] Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 6:08 AM To: humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com Subject: Re: [humptydumptyy2k] B2B: Bill to Bill

Neenah,

Well, you've probably got a point. I know that the conference had been scheduled for weeks or months before the verdict was announced, but if either Clinton or Gates had felt embarrassed by the situation, they could have found an excuse for him not to show up (e.g., he could have conveniently come down with a sudden case of the flu).

And if they felt that he had to show up in order to convince the press that it was just "business as usual" after the DOJ verdict, they could have placed him somewhere in the back of the room. But to prominently place him next to the Prez, on his right-hand side, is a very strong signal to send...

Ed -------------------------------------------------------------- Edward Yourdon, phone/fax: 888-814-7605 email: ed@yourdon.com Web: www.yourdon.com Chairman, Cutter Consortium: www.cutter.com/consortium/ Editor, Cutter IT Journal: www.cutter.com/itjournal/index.html --------------------------------------------------------------

From: Neenahep@aol.com Reply-To: humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:47:12 EDT To: humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com Subject: [humptydumptyy2k] B2B: Bill to Bill

In a message dated 4/6/00 12:19:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ed@yourdon.com writes:

<< I'll bet that if the NYTimes had an online version a century ago, you would have seen John D. Rockefeller or Andrew Carnegie or JP Morgan hob- nobbing with whoever was President at the time. Frankly, I don't know why it even matters to Clinton at this point, since he's a lame duck -- but Bill has finally figured out that he needs to donate a few million dollars to the lobbyists and politicians in order to keep them from passing any really onerous legislation. >>

Ed,

My take on the photo-op was that Clinton needed it as much, if not more than Gates. Why? Election year.

Remember that when Clinton first campaigned for the presidency, he told us that, "It's the economy, stupid!"? Well, did you see what the economy-stupid did right after the ruling on Microsoft? The Nasdaq plunged and closed a record 375 points down, followed the next day by another 600-point drop (from which it recovered).

All the talking heads agree that it's the strenght of the economy and the record Dow that kept Clinton's head above water during his Monica scandals and is likely to give Gore a shot at succeeding him. If the market crashes, it's got to make everyone nervous - but especially the democrats and especially Clinton (leaving his legacy) and Gore (trying to establish his claim to the throne).

I think that the photo-op was not only to reassure Clinton and Gates of their continued mutual admiration, but to calm the markets and keep the Democrats in position to win. The message I got from the photo was that the president, head of the government which has just won a big case against Micrsoft, was sending a message to the public and the markets that he would ensure that no hard comes to Microsoft, the goose laying the golden egg that is helping to drive Nasdaq and keep the Dow afloat (sort of), the economy, the democrats, the US.

In other words, I think that the government was sending a signal that, after the disastrous Nasdaq, Clinton had quickly remembered that, "It's the economy, stupid" and was promising pictorially that his administration will not lay a finger on Microsoft. It was just so odd to see them embracing on the cover of the NYT within days of Bill's government going after Bill's company and the plunge of the market. I don't think that it was just a matter of coincidence or of "Gates keeping his appointments in Washington" as one article said.

I think it was a matter of Gates rushing to DC to save the government and the economy, helping it to remove the Administration's foot from its mouth. Time will tell if that reading of the sudden embrace of Bill and Bill is right.

Neenah

----------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Anonymous, April 08, 2000

Concerning the above post about 'Celera' and The Human Genome Study by the National Institutes of Health: Francis Collins is the Christian heading up the study nad Craig Venter formerly was part of that program.

They (FC and CV) had a falling out and CV left, to form a private, profit-making company -- 'Celera'; Francis Collins wants all of the information to be made public, for the benefit of mankind, (so that anyone who has research information to introduce into the pool, can) and Venter wants to copyright his information, to make money on it.

Wait for further developments.

-- Anonymous, April 08, 2000

delurking for the occasion...

neenah, i would like to echo rodger's sentiments. i agree with your position regarding the future and our responsibility to remain aware of the dangers posed by our runaway technology.

back in the late 60' s and early 70's in nyc i was the client services manager or itel corp[service bureau] and simultaneously the operations manager[long story.] this for ny, nj, phila, boston, and chicago.

. i was 28 and we were supposedly the creme da la creme of the service bureau world for wholesale accounts. this is going to sound crazy but, i knew then that we were heading for trouble. the systems analyst and i used to go out for drinks and project what we thought were the possibilities in the near and not so near future.

i found out, by posting regularly to rick cowle's electrical forum, that most people will wax philosophic on a particular issue but few are loathe to take action of any kind... most prefer the head in the sand position.

your input is necessary here... if only to raise awareness and keep the problem in the limelight.

please stay. remember the 'silent majority.' you are reaching more people than you imagine.

don't give up.

marianne

xkejaguar@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 04/09/2000 10:32:02 AM Central Daylight Time, > Neenahep@aol.com writes: > > << I think that what I will do is ask Ed in a couple of days to keep my > access > to the messages at egroups, but to discontinue my receipt of the emails. > That > way, I can check in from time to time to see what topics are under > discussion, especially those that deal with the lessons to be learned from > Y2K and applied to the future, but my mailbox won't keep maxing out. > >> > > Neenah, I also would hate to see you "drop out" of the forum. I enjoy your > comments; they are always well thought out. I don't always agree, but that's > what a forum is all about. We're not seeking a consensus here, but an active > exchange of ideas. > And though I hope no one will accuse me of being too far out in sci- fi land > (I am, but that's another story), the danger of humanity being forced to deal > with a higher intelligence could happen to us at any time (or maybe already > has, depending on your belief/disbelief in Roswell and UFOs). Whether the > higher intelligence is AI, robotic, or alien will probably not matter, but it > will force us to see how adaptable the human organism is. I remain > optimistic; I just hope that if we encounter "aliens" they have something > like the Star Trek "Prime Directive". > > Please stay active in the forum. I owe you for flagging Bill Joy's article, > among other things. > > Rodger > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2000

--- In humptydumptyy2k@egroups.com, Neenahep@a... wrote:

> Eric, > > You are probably aware of the article I forwarded in February and have > mentioned several times which said that cybernetics professor Kevin Warwick > has been consulting with firms which want to require implants for employees > so that they can be constantly monitored. Warwick enthusiastically endorsed > that idea. So, even if Jerry Furland is wrong in his book "Transfer" that a > national ID implant will be mandatory by 2008, you may get your wish for an > implant fulfilled at work. > > If that excites you, then I know that I am in the wrong forum. > > Neenah

Neenah and list,

I have only been in this forum for a short while, so I may have missed much of the dialog leading up to this point. I certainly haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe that you (Neenah) are in the wrong forum here.

I am curious. Has anyone here tried to make a connection between the "digital implant" and the "mark of the beast" from the Book of Revelation?

D.Thomas

---------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Anonymous, April 09, 2000

What makes the kind of seachange in mindset which Joy's article and possibly this conference represent so significant is that they are not in isolation. They come at a time when there are other very powerfully encouraging signs of an enormous turnaround in thinking and power dynamics. Other examples of this change include:

1) The "Battle in Seattle" last year in which blue collar workers and environmentalists found common cause and took to the streets by the tens of thousands to oppose the WTO. They succeeded in bringing the once invincible WTO to a standstill. When Clinton spoke before the WTO, he was forced to support the position of the protesters, in effect opposing his own policies. This protest brought America finally in line with the raging protests in Asia and Europe against the WTO, genetically-altered foods and seeds, etc.

Following that victory, the protesters announced that they would march on Washington against the IMF and World Bank. Shortly thereafter, it was announced (coincidentally?) that the World Bank would be greatly overhauled or abolished.

2) The mighty and arrogant Monsanto company was forced last year to meet with Greenpeace to discuss how it could better address the concerns of those who oppose its "Terminator" seeds and other genetically-engineered seeds. This was a momumental change which caught everyone by surprise. It was as big, if not a bigger, shock than the shock the protesters dealt the WTO, Seattle, and the U.S.

3) DoubleClick had to back down on its decision to merge its anonymous data with the data collected by Abuzz on credit card purchases. The Clinton administration, which has been pushing the invasive "Clipper Chip" and adamantly opposing encryption, had to announce that it now supports online privacy. The cover story on a recent Business Week was on the need for better privacy protections for Americans, like the ones Europeans enjoy. Bill Gates just announced that Microsoft will offer privacy tools.

This is also a seachange that has been won by the hard-fought battles of the privacy advocates who just would not accept "No".

It's too late at night for me to remember the other things that show that there is a real change in the air for the positive. The unstoppable Monsanto and WTO were stopped in their tracks and the Adminsitration had to recant its position - throwing in the IMF and World Bank for good measure. DoubleClick, the Administration, and Microsoft bow to the concerns of the public for protection of privacy.

And now Bill Joy gets a forum called "Being Human in the Digital Age". There's reason to be hopeful.

Neenah

This lady doesn't understand that things will 'wax worse and worse'.

But as Charles Miller says: "Most people won't believe the 'end- times' prophecies until the Nile dries up."

-- Anonymous, April 10, 2000

On Sat, 8 Apr 2000 phronesia@webtv.net wrote:

> Pat Robertson is standing up for those who have little voice in this > world. Principled conservatives --like the Republican Indiana > governor-- are standing up not just for the law of the land, but more > importantly, for Justice itself.

Sorry, but I am very much for Capital Punishment so I would not be willing to stand with Mr. Robertson on this one. Yes, there may be problems with the Judicial System and its fairness to those with little money but I believe that God has always been very clear about punishment for murderers. I would boldly guess that ALL inmates on death-row have committed serious murders, so because they don't have enough money for an expensive lawyer to help in sparing their lives, I have no pity. I have pity for the families and children that are left behind.

The problem with crime in this country is partly due to the fact that we are too "soft" on criminals so that there is little to deter someone considering a criminal act. I read that in Singapore (I think), where they have no gun control, that there are a handful of murders each year. Why ?? Because anyone committing a crime against someone with a gun is publicly executed. There is a crime deterent.

See ya, /-------------------------------------------------------------------/ / Michael P. Miller JHU-APL / / email: mmiller@aplexus.jhuapl.edu (443)778-3387 / /-------------------------------------------------------------------/

-- Anonymous, April 10, 2000

On Mon, 10 Apr 2000, Marie at B'Dazzled wrote:

> Message text written by "Michael P. Miller 11-303 A2E " > >Because anyone committing a crime against someone with a gun is publicly > executed. There is a > crime deterent.< > > Now, that's a solution! But wait...what about the guy who is defending > himself, home and family? Does the law cover that?

Ok, lets get real now. I'm sure most people understand the general idea I was trying to get across. I'm not interested in covering every possible case of firearm usage.

A person defending himself or family from harm would not fall under "committing a CRIME against someone with a gun", right ? So your remark shows that you responded without even thinking about what I wrote. And of course I don't know the details of Singapore law.

But lets get biblical if you want to. Much less serious crimes than murder were punishable by death according to God's Law. Examples: cursing your father or mother Lev 20:9 adultry Lev 20:10 homosexuality Lev 20:13 spiritist or mediums Lev 20:27 blaspemeing the name of the Lord Lev 24:16 So God was and is (as God doesn't change) tough on crime or should I say sin. And keep in mind that though we have forgiveness through Christ who will not condemn us if we believe in him; there are still consequences to sin such as physical death.

See ya, /-------------------------------------------------------------------/ / Michael P. Miller JHU-APL / / email: mmiller@aplexus.jhuapl.edu (443)778-3387 / /-------------------------------------------------------------------/

-- Anonymous, April 10, 2000

>Subject: RE: [timeless_eye] Re: Some of Roleigh's favorite books, etc. >Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:03:17 -0500 >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) >X-eGroups-Moderators: timeless_eye > >Roleigh, > >There are at least a half dozen books out there now, published in the last >few years, that are of the same caliber as Behe's book. They are written >from various disciplines but the message is the same: Darwinism and >evolution are the walking dead. Of course, communism has been the walking >dead since the fall of the Soviet Union but that doesn't stop our >institutions of higher learning from continuing to be bastions, though the >only remaining ones, of a patently bankrupt ideology. > >Phil Morris > >"Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized. In the >first, it is ridiculed. In the second, it is opposed. In the third, it >is regarded as self-evident." >--Arthur Schopenhauer

----------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Anonymous, April 12, 2000

Welcome to "Connie presents: the Connie Show! Starring Connie! With special guests, Connie, Connie, and Connie! Also appearing, John and Danny..." <g>

-- Anonymous, April 13, 2000

Dear John, (This is a 'Dear John letter', in case you wondered) ;-)

The reason I do this is not to star in my own show, but to share some things I come across which might be of interest to others on this forum.

Is none of it of any interest to you?

-- Anonymous, April 13, 2000

Connie, Speaking for myself, none of it has been of interest to me. Perhaps a clue to you could have been that you have posted this *stuff* to yourself over a 3 week period and no one has responded to any of it. Except for Danny & John pointing out the obvious? Sorry, that's it in a nutshell.

-- Anonymous, April 13, 2000

O.K.

I'll be merciful and put you out of your misery.

I thought that if people were made aware of the danger they are in (yet the safety in Chist's care) they might be interested.

The 'Mark of the Beast' technology is in place. People will actually be led to believe that it's a good idea. (There are already plans underway (in the talking stages) for us to have chips imbedded at birth, so that it will 'simplify' keeping track of all our records.

If you were wise, you'd go back over this thread and study some of what has been said by computer professionals (not by me).

People have been put to sleep concerning the 'end times' by earlier false prophets who couldn't have known what it was they were prophesying about, because the books had not been opened. Two main prophecies to look for were that 'people would run to and fro' and knowledge would be increased', both of which have happened.

But before that, the books had to be opened and the Jews had to be returned to Israel, which if anyone gave it serious study, would realize has happened miraculously. Also, the launching of the Yuri Gagarin (USSR) and subsequent space vehicles.

Many prophecies for the 'end times' have been fulfilled in the 20th century, but people have been put to sleep by false prophets. The 'Sebat' generation, of which many of you are, is the generation which will witness most of this.

The 'Sebat' generation, while seemingly awake, will be awakened to these facts before too long. I am willing to accept abuse, ridicule and criticism to warn you.

May God have mercy on all of us.

In Him

You may rejoice: This will be my last post on this thread.

-- Anonymous, April 13, 2000

I wasn't being abusive, I was just being flip. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

-- Anonymous, April 13, 2000