Since the other threads on 'Romans 10...' and 'Once Saved, Always Saved', 'Another Gospel?', 'The Restoration Movement' and 'Pre-Millennialism' have become so long, I'm starting this one.

Please, Benjamin, may I answer your questions here?

To begin:

Philippians 4: 8 - 9:

'Finally, Brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, what soever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.'

I see in all of the posts a dealing with the paradoxes in Scripture - - which are ALL true in each person's own understanding of the meaning to him/her, - - the portions of Scripture which we simply do not understand right now, but will someday.

I can agree with every person to some degree, because each one (IMHO) is a believer, seeking God's truth for himself.

But I see no reason why we all have to agree with the details. We can discuss the details, and come to agreement or disagreement, but my purpose here is as much to learn and be taught as to teach.

Speaking of divisions, that was Paul's point about not baptizing - - about not wanting to become broken into groups following human wisdom.

He spoke of a 'oneness of spirit' not a oneness of ecclesiastical set-up. There is no one church, except the universal church - - the body of Christ; the Bride of Christ. There are many churches. And these were local, indigenous fellowships of believers who came together to be edified. Worship is something we do continually, in my estimation.

We come together for 'communion' to remember His death and resurrection. There are all sorts of different activitiesrelating to our faith that the local church fulfills.

There are two words in the Koine Greek which are translated "church" in the N.T., and they are: 'ekklesia' from which the English word 'ecclesiatic'is derived - - the body of Christ - - and 'basilaea'(sp?) upon which 'basillica' is based - - the building.

There are also four words which are translated 'love' in the KJV - - 'agape' (God-love; unselfish love); 'phileo' - - brotherly love; eros - - sexual love - - and 'storgomos' (sp?)(meaning?) I don't remember enough of my one year of Greek to remember. I'm sure the scholars here can tell us. I got about as far as 'alpha, beta, delta, gamma, and remember a few words of vocabulary. It's been almost 40 years! I might ask my son who teaches Latin and Greek. (Classical)

"Agape' love is what is described in I Corinthians 13: 1 - 13.

Correct me where I'm wrong! No kidding!

We are to put others' welfare above our own.

There are so many people who have opinions with which I agree and a few with whom I disagree. Benjamin, dbvz, John Wilson, Scott Sheridan, E. Lee Saffold, Steve Vinson, Danny Grabbard, Barry Hanson.

Our agreement with every point would make certain other ones of us unnecessary, would it not? I enjoy the knowledge of each.

I do remember Paul's saying that he became all things to all men that he might save some. Is that being conformed to the world or not standing on truth? I don't think so.

The Holy Spirit instructs us and the Bible is our textbook; I prefer listening to the intructions of Paul, Peter, John, Matthew, James, et al, over Augustine, Calvin, Arminius, the 'Holy Fathers', the Pope, or any modern writer, including C.S. Lewis, Francis Schafer, or any modern writer.

Shalom!

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2000

Answers

That's alpha, beta, GAMMA, delta.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2000

Paul, I Corinthians 11: 23 - 29:

I won't type the whole thing here, as I'm persuaded you all know it by heart, but the Lord initiated His Supper on the same night on which he was betrayed, and I think that was a Thursday.

He said 'As oft (often) as you do it, do it in remembrance of Me'.

I don't see where he is specifying the day.

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, March 09, 2000

I meant to post this to the 'Saturday Evening Services' thread, but I had one for this one, too, which I posted twice and the moderator, I guess, didn't want to add it to this thread.

It is his forum and I guess I crossed the line when I said:

I'm being ostracized, I see.

(If it's really happening, it's not paranoia!)

But I'm not angry anymore! ;-) ;-) This was originally posted last night, I believe.

-- Anonymous, March 09, 2000

Connie,

You said you were starting this thread to answer my questions. I've been waiting for you to do so. I wonder if you got what I said mixed up with someone else's submissions. I thought about copying what I had said in the Romans 10 and Restoration Movement threads over to here for you to see them all in one place, but I haven't had time. I can still do it, but it will now have to wait until Sunday is over. Sunday is my busiest day, and Saturday comes next. Yes, I am a "full time Christian worker." In relation to my supporters in the U.S., I am a "missionary." In relation to the church here (in Hong Kong), I am a "preaching elder."

In what you do say, I'm afraid I don't see a whole lot of connection with what I said, except in what you say about the paradoxes in Scripture. I hadn't used that word, but it is a good way of putting what I have been trying to get across. On the one hand, the Bible clearly says that we cannot save ourselves and cannot "earn" our salvation; we are saved by God's grace through our faith. Period. But the Bible also says that our sins are washed away WHEN we are immersed, that "immersion now saves us" (I Pet. 3:21), that IF we have been immersed, we have "put on" Christ, that "AS MANY OF US AS were immersed ... were immersed into his death" and then raised up with him in the likeness of his resurrection, etc. Since BOTH sets of passages are in the Bible, BOTH MUST BE TRUE, whether or not our human minds can grasp it now. Actually, most of those in these forums seem to have little trouble understanding how both are true. (Various analogies have been suggested. I suggested the one of presenting a cheque to the bank in order to receive the "free gift" of money someone has given me.) For those who can't quite grasp it (because of "Augustinian dualism", as Danny has suggested?), it remains a paradox. But since that is what Scripture says, it is a paradox we must accept as true (on BOTH sides), and trust that "God will make it plain someday."

I'm not sure what the point is of what you say about the Greek words EKKLESIA and BASILEIA. But regarding BASILEIA, it may be the root of the word "basilica", but the Greek meaning has nothing to do with buildings. The word means "kingdom"; and while the phrases "kingdom of God" and "kingdom of heaven" often do refer to Christ's church, I couldn't find any passage in the Bible translations I use most often where it is translated "church". I think there may be a passage or two in the AV (KJV) where the word "synagogue" is translated as "church", even though it is plainly referring to the Jewish synagogue. Apart from that, in most standard translations, the word "church" seems exclusively (or almost so) to translate the word EKKLESIA, the basic meaning of which is "assembly".

I'm also not sure what the point is of listing the various Greek words for "love." In some of the other "threads" some (perhaps including you -- I can't remember) have suggested that some of the people in these forums are lacking in love. I am very sorry if some of us have made you feel that way. I hope I haven't been one of them. Another of the paradoxes of Scripture is that on the one hand we are to behave in a loving way toward all, while on the other we are to contend for the truth, etc. Sometimes it is hard to find the right balance between the two.

-- Anonymous, March 11, 2000

Bejamin:

I didn't start this thread JUST to answer your questions, but because the 1st 'Restoration' thread was becoming so long, as were some of the others, so I took it upon myself to start a new one... And now I've forgotten what your questions were. :-(

In your e-mail you ask about the Greek words I mentioned, and as best as I can recall, it was in some discussion on one of the threads what each one's interpretation of the meaning of the word 'love' is, so I thought that I would point out that there are four different words in the Greek which are translated 'love' in the N.T., so it always helps to know which one we are referring to at that moment.

As for 'ekklesia' and 'basileia'; I knew that 'ekklesia' is the word most often used,and that the definition is 'assembly'. Perhaps we should call ourselves 'assemblies' as the Plymouth Brethren do! (Just kidding.)

What I wonder, also, since this thread is the property of the CoC, whether the CoCs have foot-washing ceremonies in their assemblies.

Also, do the women wear head-coverings to honor their husbands, as I did for the first three years of my Christian life? Even the Pastor's wife didn't, so when I looked around, I thought: 'Wow! I'm the only one wearing a hat to honor my husband!'

I've got a question sent to my son, Paul, who has a doctorate in Classical Languages and teaches Latin and Greek at a large mid- western university. I don't give its name, because I don't want him embarrassed by something I say.

Also, in a couple of posts, I was being sarcastic, with tongue-in- cheek, and was misunderstood. So from now on , when I post a witticism, I will insert the ubiquitous 'Happy Face'. (I've deleted many sarcastic rejoinders, because I didn't feel they'd be edifying).

I prefer discourse to confrontation, but when attacked, my natural response is to fight back, which I usually don't fall for. 'A brother offended is harder to be won', and Paul's 'I become all things to all men that I might win some'. And 'A soft answer turneth away wrath.'

Sorry I forgot your questions. Do you mind asking them again?

In Christ,

-- Anonymous, March 11, 2000

Actually, this forum is the "property" of the independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ. Although we do enjoy and welcome the company of our acapella Church of Christ brethren (such as Brother Staffold). (As to the difference .... well, that is a LOOOONG story.)

-- Anonymous, March 11, 2000

Lee has never said anything so it might not bother him, but just to get things straight, Lee's name is Saffold, not Staffold.

I dont know where the mistake began, but it has been a long time in error, although I'm sure not intentionally.

-- Anonymous, March 11, 2000

My sincerest apologies. (Could have been worse ... could have called him "Scaffold." <grin>) I think whoever it was who coined the term "Staffolding" started it.

-- Anonymous, March 12, 2000

Sorry, John, Can't help you. Apparently I coined the term, but I spelled it right! : )

-- Anonymous, March 12, 2000

Scott:

I appreciate your concern for the correct spelling of my name. It is very kind of you to notice. I am somewhat used to it. Many people have called me Stafford, Staffold, sanford, Saffo,Stanford. It seems that the name is so unusual that no one can believe that it is spelled Saffold. Ha! I was not too concerned but I am like almost everyone else, I do like for my name to be spelled correctly. I thank you for thinking of this small matter.

John:

I know that you did not intend to misspell my name and I was not offended at all. I often misspell names as well. I have been called "Scaffold" believe it or not! Ha! I have a very close friend, from my miltary days fighting in , well an unnamed place, who was in a foriegn military cooperating with us. He has called me "Commander Staffold" from the day we first met. We are both out of the Military now and he is living in Birmingham and is a very close friend but he Still calls me "Commander Staffold" Ha! I have even spelled the name for him in big letters on a peice of paper. But he prefers to call me what he called me when we fought in this particular conflict together.

It is a name of German origin from the old high German "Seige" meaning Victory and "Bald" meaning bold. But the English use of the name is from the work called sheepfolding. It meant to keep the fold "safe" or protected. Hence Saffold. As I often think of being safe in the fold. Ha! And I am not even a "Shepherd! Ha!

You Could however just call me by my Chinese name. It is "li Jin Long" It is easier to spell. Ha!

Or since some think I am "Mr. Clinton's attorney" you could just call me ESQUIRE! Ha!

Sam:

You are absolutely correct. You did coin the term "Saffolded" and you did spell it correctly.

Brethren, we have had some fund with these names, haven't we? Ha! Those who know me best just call me "Hey Stupid"! Ha! They even spell it correctly.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, March 15, 2000

Hey Brother Lee,

Tell me about misspelling & mispronunciation of a name - With my last name I think I am the posterchild for such...... :~)

I've been called about everything imaginable (many of which are unprintable), but my take is........"You can call me anything you want to, as long as you call me for dinner"!

Personally Lee, I would just rather call you Brother & Friend,

-- Anonymous, March 15, 2000

Mark:

I agree. I think you should be the "poseter Child" for misspelled names. Ha! I have to read your name every time I try to spell it. I can only imagine that you get some very interesting pronunciations as well!

Names are fun, aren't they? They all have significant meanings and there is no doubt that there is something in a name. I know that the scriptures teach that a "good name" is to be desired above rubies. But most important of all is the fact that we have all "Named the name" of Christ and that there is "no other name given among men whereby we must be saved". (Acts 4:12). His name is a name that is "above every other name and at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue should confess that Christ is Lord to the glory of God the father".

I also agree with you. For I too would rather call you Brother.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, March 16, 2000