at this site is a section that deals with Gary North and his tie-in with Ed Yourdon. Here is the E-mail snip:

To: Charles Reuben From: Gary North Subject: Re: BS

At 01:19 PM 7/17/97 -0500, you wrote: . I figured you out months ago: a real estate salesman with scientific pretentions.. ,,,,,,,,,

Wrong. That is about as accurate as your so-called "analysis" of the Year 2000 Date Change problem or your use of the term "Economic Historian". Charlie Reuben,

Wrong as I may be, I'm mailing out 250,000 pieces a month with my scenario. Meanwhile, you're showing guys property to buy. I think my version will win out. And i didn't capitalize oine pejorative phrase.

Yourdon has bought my 90% of my analysis and is now publishing a survival book on it.

http://www.yourdon.com/books/fallback/fallbackhome.html

He is America's one of the world's senior programmers: two dozen books on the topic.

I don't need your approval. I've got his. He is clearly using one of my direct-mail ad pieces on his Web page summary of why the Great Depression is coming. How do I know? I made an error that he reprints -- a kind of water mark. It was a minor error, but it was mine, all mine.

Think of it, though: 250,000 pieces a month. Month after month. My version, not yours.

Enjoy!

(I hope that formats Ok!)

I wonder how much of Ed's current activity is because he has been exposed as badly as he has?

Is this a major rep saving 'last stand' for the old boy or what?

-- Super Polly (Fu_Q_Y2kfreaks@hotmail.com), March 05, 2000

Answers

We're already discussed this at Biffy. Sheesh, can't somebody come up with some new threads that aren't about EY? This is going to get boring real fast. No, wait! It's already boring!

-- (Yawn@you.com), March 05, 2000.

And Charlie, we all know you're Super Polly. Why continue the gameplaying?

-- charlie's up 2 his old trix (y m i@not.surprised?), March 05, 2000.

If you do not learn from History, you are doomed to repeat it. (Georges Santayana and others).

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Firstly, I do not blame the people who were unduly influenced by the mass amount of information that was filtered down to make the Doomer case. Anyone can make that error simply by relying on the wrong sources and excluding anyone with an "alternative" position. You are now seeing how the process unfolds under the guise of routing out "disrupters" via censorship and banning somewhere else.

I don't even blame Yourdon for that. I DO blame Gary North as the core Trail Boss of the Y2k Fear Wagon Train. Those 7,000 links were the center of the entire construction of the "beliefs" and served to re-inforce on a daily basis, the *propaganda goals* of GN.

If he could sucker in Yourdon, what chance did the average person have? It spread to the Congress passed on by 2nd, 3rd, even 5th levels of people all testifying to the same thing, the "we gotta very bigga problem and....".

90% of those who extended the views haven't a clue as to how they "got it" from Gary North. Some of those who do know, thought they were "using him" just for the links (sort of a Y2k version of "I only read Playboy for the articles".)

If you do not understand what went on for 2 years from late 1997 on, you will NEVER understand why the estimates for Y2k Disasters fell so far short of the *reality* of 1/1/2000 on. To use the words the Doom Set used on everyone else before 1/1/2000, YOU ARE.. *IN DENIAL*. If you choose to blame "others" as some of the leading "voices" have, what happens to "taking responsibility for what you do?" the credo of the same people now moving on to "self reliance"? Hypocrisy comes in a lot of forms.

1. I am not "super Polly" or Fu or any one of those. The orig. post is on Paul Thibodeau's extensive academic work on Ch. Reconstructionism under "Gary North and Y2k". I have no reason to hide behind some sheet with an anonymous email address nor hassle anyone. Counting all the list serves I was on, at least 50,000 people have my name and phone number. (That was handy for the multiple Death Threats I got starting in 1998.) Others of the debunkers got them if their IDs were known and for those Brave Sheeted ones I was the one who sent email copies of the threat made on Gary North to every email address I had for Brer North and copied that to some of the Christian Reconstructionists I knew to insure he got the message. He thank me for that by directing his fans to the Biffy Site so they could drool their ever so pious drivel.

NOW, the CRs themselves have demanded North recant and many are not satisfied with his "I'm sorry". Since many of them are both sincere and devoted to their beliefs, I can assure you Gary is not a happy camper in N.W. Ark. (now rumored to have moved to Tn.)

Besides, I view such things as cowardice and anonymous emailers as worthless or *Shills* usually for someone selling something.

2. The names I used on Biffy or debunker were known to the members and mostly a joke. If you do not get "Buff. V. Sleigher" at worried.com ask the nearest teenager what that means. Dr. J. Hutt was called in for only the most severe cases of doomer trolling and of course, his father Jabba, simply couldn't be bothered.

Riddle me this ........why did 9.0 Scott Olmstead, Doomer and Pessimist, go to a New Years Eve party near San Diego instead of his hideaway after years of pessimism?

I have the article in the SD paper I picked up Sunday, Jan.2 that states Olmstead decided the problems would not be that great and so he and his wife went out (in contrast to most Americans who stayed home). Olmstead was the only Doomer I personally would ever listen to, by early in December he announced he was ending his Y2k site by not renewing the interenet registration of www.prepare4y2k.com.

Want to make a fool of yourself again over another over-stated crisis??

Then continue to deny the reality of what has gone on for the last year, the lack of serious problems and the failure of all the predictions of Disaster about the Computer Date Change problem.

Do you think it is an accident that both Hyatt and Yourdon revamped their web sites and disrupted their "forums" during the Leap Year "crisis date"?? That was the "Last of the Mohicans" for them and all the chanting about "its still the Y2k problem and 2000 isn't over" we have heard for so long will not change the fact that 1/6th of the year has gone by and the reported problems are minor or readily correctable.

Those who did not "fix" their systems or were "so far behind they will never make it" have no greater rate of failure than those who spent the estimated $100-200 billion.

That alone tells you (if you want to listen) that something had to have been wrong with the *original estimates* that you may have believed. I and many others started revising back in 1998 after two years of Y2k volunteer work with DFW/DAMA.

The argument that the world was divided into Doomers and Pollies was another fiction set up by the same manufacturers of the Y2k disaster theories.

The world was and is divided by the Doomers and the NON-Doomers and in the latter group are all the gradations and shades of grey one can find ranging from the true "pollies" (the totally oblivious) to the "pessimists" who did not believe in TEOTW.

...................................................................... .

Sweeping North and those he unduly influenced into a corner of your mind will not make their failures and the damage they did go away.

Blaming others and smearing those who called North out, may thrill those who do it but not change the reality of what North set out and failed to do. That he was able to influence an Ed Yourdon for more than 5 minutes shows that he had that influence. It was Gary North's web site at the center shoveling out the so-called information he carefully filtered to support his propaganda and goals.

That is fact and I have 150 megs of data to substantiate it. So do many others including Professors and Graduate students now assembling their own views of what happened.

It is no secret that I hold Gary North accountable directly for all the exaggerations and overestimations of the magnitude of the potential Y2k "impact". He set out to weaken the trust in the Banking and security systems and then the entire Financial systems knowing that without Money and Banking business as usual would collapse and with it the Constitution of the USA (in his stated "It has been my goal all my life").

It is also no secret that for over 2 years a group of us opposed North and extended that to those using North's so-called ideas.

As for "we discussed this on Biffy" and yawn. Almost all the regulars on Biffy would have known because it is part of the thesis of the entire site GNIABFI and the key role of North in setting the entire dialog that lead to the Doomer Position on Y2k.

-- cpr (buytexas@swbell.net), March 05, 2000.

Gary North yada yada yada.......Ed Yourdon yada yada yada....right yada yada yada....wrong yada yada yada......yawn.

-- Porky (Porky@in.cellblockD), March 05, 2000.

snore

-- (bored @ with it .all), March 05, 2000.

It sure is nice to be able to make a post, and have it remain unaltered and not deleted! THANK YOU. It is a breath of freash air. I have also read that "old TB2K regular" caught several people imitating LL, and SAID SO. Maybe people will FINALY understand that the "pollies" and "trolls" WERE NOT doing what the old STinkbomb moderator crowd SAID they were doing. MOST of it was STAGED by DOOMERS!!! REMEMBER that in the future.

I'm not CPR or any other debunker. I repeated that time and time again on the old "censorship2000" board, but it was deleted.

I'll say this once here (because I know it will be left alone) and I won't keep rehashing it. I post under this handle, using my real e-mail address. The service I use is nation wide, so don't think I am using multiple handles just because you see the same IP number. (that is all I am saying about it, because I don't want to encourage the same type of "doom mirroring" that happened on Stinkbomb. The new site admin doesn't need that kind of headache.)

Can I say *sigh*?

-- Super Polly (FU_Q_Y2kfreaks@hotmail.com), March 06, 2000.