Almost two months ago on a different thread I asked a question to which I have recieved no answer. So, let me repeat it here: Do the main Protestant Churches (e.g. Lutherans, Episcopals, Anglicans, etc) and the Orthodox Church in its different branches consider Sunday the Lord's Day or do they keep it on Saturday? Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), January 21, 2000.

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), March 02, 2000

Answers

Hello, Enrique.

I believe that all the Orthodox churches and the "mainline" Protestant ecclesial communities [as they are called by the Holy See, since they are not "churches" with apostolic succession] do celebrate Sunday as "the Lord's Day." [I can state with certainty that the Lutherans do so, because I played the organ for a Lutheran congregation for five years.] My "Yellow Pages" phone book confirms that the other large (and many small) denominations have their main weekly worship service on Sunday.

Catholic Answers, Inc. (of San Diego, California) says this: "Seventh-Day Adventists, Seventh-Day Baptists, and certain others claim that Christians must not worship on Sunday but on Saturday, the Jewish sabbath." [When they say "certain others," I believe that they mean "certain other small sects."]

God bless you, my friend.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 02, 2000.

Why is it that most people seem to confuse the words "REST" and "WORSHIP". It seems every time there is a discussion involving the sabbath commandment the word "WORSHIP" always comes to the table. The word "SABBATH and the commandment about the SABBATH does not concern a day of "WORSHIP" but rather a day of "REST". If you worship God on Sunday , then who do you worship the remaining days? Doesn't God require worship 24-7?

-- Michael (mdroe@erinet.com), March 03, 2000.

That4s interesting. Jews observed Saturday. Scripture says nothing about observing Sundays (or does It?). So, rejecting tradition and keeping only Sripture, shouldn4t protestants observe saturdays? After all, observation of Sundays is thus a "Tradition and Magisterium" thing...

-- Atila (atila@none.com), March 03, 2000.

Atila wrote:"shouldn4t protestants observe saturdays?"

Yes! A true "protestant" does. They would be named Seventh day adventists, Seventh day Baptists, and Messianic Jews etc. or "the remnant".

-- Michael (mdroe@erinet.com), March 03, 2000.

Michael asks, "If you worship God on Sunday, then whom do you worship the remaining days? Doesn't God require worship 24-7? [i.e., 24 hours per day, 7 days per week, I explain for visitors from other nations]"

To most people, Michael, the word "worship," in the context of our conversation here, would refer to a special "worship service." In this, Christians come together to adore God, to thank Him, to be penitent for their sins, and to ask for His help -- in a corporate manner. By doing so on Sunday, they celebrate again and again the Resurrection of Jesus on Easter Sunday and the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost Sunday.

God does not require each of us to be involved in "worship services" 24 hours per day, 7 days per week -- though we should keep an adoring attitude toward Him during all our waking hours and should devote time to personal, private prayer each day. [Ironically, though, the Catholic Church does have worship services "24-7." The holy sacrifice of the Mass is offered at least once daily by most of the 400,000 priests around the world. Therefore, every second of every minute of every hour of every day, the transubstantiation is occurring on at least four or five altars!]

Atila asks, "So, rejecting Tradition and keeping only Sripture, shouldn4t Protestants observe Saturdays? After all, observation of Sundays is thus a "Tradition and Magisterium" thing."

You make an interesting point, Atila. Those small denominations that observe Saturdays have been trying for over a century to invite the mainline Protestants to join them, using the same "logic" that you just expressed. [Seventh-Day Adventism was founded after the year 1800.] Some of those who observe Saturday try to make the mainline Protestants feel guilty by claiming that they are still partly being controlled by the pope!

Fortunately, some of the mainliners realize that the earliest Christians observed Sunday as their day of rest and special worship. There are ancient Christian (non-scriptural) documents, written even before the last book of the Bible, which show that Christians observed Sunday. Other mainliners believe that even scripture offers sufficient justification for not observing Saturday:
Colossians 2:16 -- "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath." They interpret this as stating that no one should allow "judaizers" (who wanted to be Christians while still following the old law) to force them to observe Saturday.
Acts 20:7 -- "On the first day of the week [Sunday], when we were gathered together to break bread..." Some mainliners interpret this as scriptural evidence of a Sunday worship service, with the "breaking of the bread" being done in imitation of Jesus at the feeding of the multitudes, the Last Supper, and at Emmaus.

There is highly recommended reading on the subject at these sites:
http://www.catholic.com/answers/tracts/adventsm.htm
http://www.catholic.com/answers/tracts/_sabbath.htm

In the second essay, please take special note of the beautiful explanation of why (according to a fourth-century bishop, St. John Chrysostom) we observe all of the Ten Commandments, unchanged, except "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy."

God bless you all. JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 03, 2000.

J.F.

Correct me if i am wrong, but the point Seventh day adventist and the like are making is not a different day of worship ,but rather a day of rest. Seventh day adventists hold worship services on Saturday and other days of the week also. They protest the authority of the RCC and keep all ten commandments as stated by God including the fourth "thou shall remeber the sabbath day". They keep the original commandments of God, without any tradition of man defiling God's holy law.

-- Michael (mdroe@erinet.com), March 04, 2000.

Thank you, Michael.
I think that you understand the "7DA" argument correctly. But what I have been trying to show, in my posts, is that for the first 1800+ years after Jesus, all Christians both rested and worshiped on the same day, Sunday (provided their secular government did not force them to work). This is clearly not a condemned "tradition (custom) of men," but a practice that started when some apostles were still alive. Jesus gave the apostles the authority to make this change ["whatsoever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven"]. I have cited biblical evidence that indicates that they made the change, and if you would review the evidence at the URLs I suggested, you would see some first-century non-biblical evidence that confirms this.

[Some Catholics say that there are no "coincidences," but only "God-incidences." The first and third scriptural readings (Old Testament and gospel) heard in every Catholic church in the world today speak of the original "sabbath," as God gave the law to Moses, as well as Jesus's words on the sabbath being "made for man, not man for the sabbath."]

To what I have already stated in previous posts, please let me add a few other things that are on my mind today: (1) St. John, in Revelation 1, says that he was "in the Spirit on the Lord's Day," indicating that Christians before the year 100 already had a special name for their new day of rest (the Christian sabbath). St. John's readers knew exactly which day he was talking about, without his having to explain it.
(2) I have heard and read that the early Christians referred to their new sabbath as "the eight day of creation." They celebrated that day, by rest and worship, because it was the day on which God "re-created" the world through his resurrection. This is in keeping with the following scriptural passages:
2 Corinthians 5:17 -- Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.
Revelations 21:5 -- And he who sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new."

(3) In case you did not read the words of St. John Chrysostom that I recommended earlier, let me try to summarize what he wrote. Almost all of the original ten commandments were given in negative terms ("Thou shalt not") to show that certain behaviors were immoral and offensive to God. But "Remember the sabbath day" was not stated negatively. Instead, it was followed by God's word of explanation as to why the day was to be remembered -- His resting at the end of creation. I am convinced that the Church that Jesus founded received from Him the authority to rest and worship on Sunday -- His new day of rest at the end of the "new creation." Just as the Holy Spirit and the Apostles decided, at the Council of Jerusalem recorded in Acts, that they would not be bound by numerous laws followed by the Jews (including many given to them directly by God), so they decided to make the "Lord's Day" their day of rest and worship.

God bless you. JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 05, 2000.

Atila:

The Sabbath is from sundown, Friday until sundown Saturday; not really just Saturday.

From the time of the resurrection, Christians met on the 'Lord's Day.'

Jesus himself 'broke the Sabbath' by healing on the Sabbath and was roundly condemned by the Pharisees for doing so. It (Remebering the Sabbath, to keep it holy) is the only commanment not repeated in the New Testament. Also, the verse about not judging others in the matter of holy days - - some keep certain days, and some keep every day. We are NOT under the Law, we are under Grace.

The LDS are what I call Old Testament Christians, as are Roman Catholics, which Paul condemned in Galatians, in no uncertain terms.

-- Connie (hive@gte.net), March 05, 2000.

Does it matter?Enter into His rest,every day that you rest in the Lord is the sabbath.Every day since he rose from the dead is a sabbath day.if a man choses saturday,sunday or whatever day for a special worship service that is entirely his choice.A christian is free from rules and regulations that put him in bondage.The modern church is carnal.No wonder people run the other way when they see a christian coming.People feel like christians think they are high and mighty better than they are,and a lot of them do .Don't do this,don't do that,can't wear pants,can't have a beard,must give 10% of your income,if you don't,God will get you.Must go to church on a certain day.Well guess what,all this is man's doctrine.Jesus came to set us free.The body of Christ is not your local churchhouse,the body is all that are in Jesus.There's a strange woman on every corner.Be free to serve the Lord out of love,not doctrines.if you do anything because you feel like you have to(the law),somethings wrong.If you are doing because you desire to then thats pleasing to the Lord.Love one another.Be free as he intended us to be.

-- kenneth (bulldawg@hotmail.com), March 05, 2000.

I thank all the kind people that answered my question. Now, I'm going a step further. The same Protestants I mentioned and the Orthodox, do they have statues or paintings of Jesus, Mary and the Saints in their churches?

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), March 07, 2000.

Enrique:

I love it!

Are you a 'troll'?

-- Connie (hive@gte.net), March 07, 2000.

Hello, amigo Enrique.

I must say that I am very confused about what is happening here. You started this thread by asking the following question: "Do the main Protestant Churches (e.g. Lutherans, Episcopals, Anglicans, etc) and the Orthodox Church in its different branches consider Sunday the Lord's Day or do they keep it on Saturday?"

Some legitimate answers were given, and some tangential information was provided too -- and so you thanked all who had answered.

Now you have asked a new question concerning the "main Protestant Churches ... and the Orthodox Church," as follows: "The same Protestants I mentioned and the Orthodox, do they have statues or paintings of Jesus, Mary, and the Saints in their churches?"

Considering the context I have just outlined, yours is a very reasonable and legitimate question. Therefore, I am mystified by Connie's words: "Enrique: I love it! Are you a 'troll'?"

I have no idea what she is talking about. Perhaps she is using a slang word with which I am not familiar. But whatever it is, it seems so inappropriate in reply to your very fine question. It seems that an explanation (perhaps even an apology?) is in order.

Now, concerning images in "mainline" Protestant and Orthodox church buildings ...
1. One of the most important decorative and devotional features of Orthodox churches are the many beautiful icons (paintings and mosaics), in which Jesus and the saints (especially our Blessed Mother) are depicted. The Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholics do not ordinarily use statues.
2. I believe that the so-called "high church" Anglicans and Episcopalians do have paintings and statues of Jesus and saints. Some of their church buildings are named after saints, especially Our Lady (whom they usually call "St. Mary").
3. I understand that scattered mainline Protestants have a deep devotion to Mary. I have heard of this pertaining to Anglicans, Lutherans, and Methodists. Some people in these denominations pray the Rosary. I have even heard of isolated cases of "evangelical" Protestants joining with Catholics to pray the Rosary at abortion centers, after they have realized that it is a scripturally based, Jesus-centered devotion.

I am never surprised when I hear of Protestants having devotions to the saints, especially to Our Lady. Marian devotion was a very admirable spiritual feature in the lives of the first Protestants -- Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and Henry VIII -- and this legacy has trickled down at least to a few modern-day Protestants. Those who have lost Marian devotion totally have lost much spiritual wealth. Modern Protestants are usually surprised to learn that many of the first Protestants, including the founders, were devoted to the Blessed Mother, prayed the Rosary, believed in her Immaculate Conception and Assumption, etc.. They are usually stunned to learn that, where Luther is buried, there is an artistic rendering of Mary's Assumption into heaven. Let us thank God that this has a profound effect on some of them, leading them back towards their Catholic roots.

God bless you.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 07, 2000.

Enrique and JFG:

I am sorry. That was rude.

A 'troll', by the way is someone who asks a question with the intent of stirring up lively discussions.

-- Connie (hive@gte.net), March 08, 2000.

Thank you, John.

Connie: if that is the meaning of "troll", then consider me as one. Some time ago I adviced people on this forum to look for the things that unite us instead of putting emphasis on those that separate us. JF's answer showed that many Protestants are not so far away from Catholics, and....let's hope that one day we'll be united again!!

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), March 08, 2000.

Dear Enrique,
Here are some germane excerpts from God's Word:

John 10:14 -- I am the Good Shepherd; I know my own and my own know me,
15: as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16: And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

John 17:20 -- "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
21: that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Ephesians 4:4 -- There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
5: one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6: one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

1 Peter 3:20 ... God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21: Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you ...

1 Timothy 3:14: I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that,
15: if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in God's household, which is the living God's Church, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam -- To the Greater Glory of God.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 08, 2000.

This isn't exactly pertaining to the main question but something was brought up and I'm hoping someone can answer me. Why do Seventh Day Adventists hate Catholics? Certainly, not all do. But my father was raised SDA (his father was even a preacher) but we (my siblings) never received ANY religious teachings from our parents. No church. No discussions. Nothing. As an adult, I was baptized Catholic, through my own choice. And although my father belongs to a non denominational church now, he vehemently opposes my being a Catholic. It upsets me greatly to hear the deragatory remarks he makes to me about it as my husband, our children and myself are all Catholic. He doesn't even try to listen to my explanations about some of the things he opposes. IE-we worship false gods...statues, Saints, etc. We put Mary on a pedestal. We have confession so we can go back out and sin again. These are merely a few. As he said to me when I asked once of his disdain towards our religion...SDA's feel towards Catholics like whites did to blacks in the 50's. I just don't understand this. If for no other reason than he ISN'T a SDA anymore. He talks of love, forgiveness and Christianity but judges and condemns us. Do they REALLY feel this way and if so, why????

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), March 11, 2000.

Jackiea: I sympathize with you. Some people are like your father: difficult to understand. He seems to have no reason whatosever for his disdain (hate?) for the Catholic Church. If you read other threads on this forum you'll find the same attitude on the part of many. Then it is time to remember Jesus' words: "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you , and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you" Matt 5, 44. If some Catholic were an extreme bigot and considered an enemy by some people, they would still have the duty, if they are really Christian, to pray for him and love him. Sadly it is not the attitude we find in many non Catholics. Let's pray for them to the Lord and show our love for them whenever the occasion arises.

I'm already praying for you and your family, and specially for your fahter.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), March 11, 2000.

Enrique, thank you so very much for your kind words and reminding me of that. Sometimes, it's difficult (at least for me) to put your anger or hurt feelings aside and pray for the ones that would do you harm. Well, thank you again for reminding me. Peace be with you, Enrique. :)

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), March 11, 2000.

Hello, "jackiea."
To help you understand the influences that have helped shape your father's thinking -- and, I hope, to help you overcome them (with prayer) -- I recommend that you read the "Catholic Answers" essay on Seventh Day Adventism. I can only quote a bit of it, since it is protected by copyright. At the bottom, I am provided you with a link to its URL (http://www.catholic.com/answers/tracts/adventsm.htm).

[Speaking of the followers of the Baptist preacher of the early 1800s, William Miller ...] A "... group of Millerites was influenced by Joseph Bates, a retired sea captain, who in 1846 and 1849 issued pamphlets insisting that Christians observe the Jewish Sabbath -- Saturday -- instead of worshiping on Sunday. This helped feed the intense anti-Catholicism of Seventh-Day Adventism, since the Catholic Church was blamed for changing the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. ... [T]wo streams of thought -- Christ entering the heavenly sanctuary and the need to keep the Jewish Sabbath -- were picked up and combined by Ellen Gould White, who claimed to have received many visions confirming these doctrines. Together with Hiram Edson and Joseph Bates, she formed the Seventh-Day Adventist denomination, which officially received its name in 1860."

For the whole essay, click here

May God bless you and help you to have peace, serenity, and mutual respect within your family.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 11, 2000.

JF, thank you for helping answer my question and your kind words. I read the article and must say, for one thing...how utterly frightening! and another...I think I have a better understanding. I feel sorry for my father, truth be told. It saddens me that the beliefs that were so deeply ingrained in him growing up, remain today. I reiterate what I said before...I just don't understand how someone can claim to be a "Christian" (the name of his chosen religion) and no longer a SDA but still hold on to that hate. It doesn't make sense to me that someone can claim to have a desire to be Christ-like and yet, treat others so totally UN-Christ-like. I suppose it's like the Holy Wars in Jesus's birth land. Do they really think that He would approve of such behavior and in His name, no less? *sigh* Well, thank you again, JF for leading me to this article. I really appreciate it. God Bless.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), March 11, 2000.

You are more than welcome, jackiea.
I look forward to our meeting again some day on these pages.
JFG
PS: Keep in mind that some vehemently anti-Catholic people (for example, Scott Hahn) have had their hearts moved by grace and prayer, becoming some of the world's greatest Catholic apologists. Don't give up on your father. You may convince him more quickly by silent Christian example than by trying to talk him into the Church.

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 11, 2000.