I am writing this as an addendum to the Apostasy thread. I realize that it will come across as "preachy" to many and am willing to risk the flaming.

As you may know, I was to be on vacation this week. Well, from the very beginning, things worked against us and everything went wrong. When we were 7 hours away from home, I realized that I had left the children's passports at home. Rather than risk illegally entering the many foreign countries that were on our trip (I live in Europe), my husband chose to make the trip home and retrieve our passports. I begged him not to go as it was so far and he was so tired. He drove anyway. He was almost home when he fell asleep at the wheel and drifted into a truck. Both vehicles were traveling in excess of 120 km/hr. Fortunately for my husband, he woke up in time. His wheel exploded and the rim disintegrated. The passenger side of the vehicle was completely caved in. The doors will not open. The mirror was sheared off. The impact was so strong that the molding on the driver's side blew off too. Those were my seats and my daughter's seats. We would have been killedor at the very least, severely injured.

There was a doctor driving behind my husband (unbeknownst to him). He pulled over and said it was a miracle that my husband had not been dragged under the wheels of that truck. It was a miracle he was alive. Nobody was injured and the truck sustained little damage.

All night I lay awake praying for my husband. Unknown to me, my mother was also praying on the other side of the world. God heard our prayers and sent an angel . I am sure of that.

My husband is an atheist. He was raised Catholic, but left the church many years ago. He is a scientist and cannot accept faith as it cannot be proven. For many years I have prayed that he would come to know God. When that phone rang at seven in the morning I was shaking when I answered. He said, "Honey, I am okay, but I was in an accident and the car was practically totalled. Please don't be mad at me." I cried with joy. My husband was ALIVE!! Praise God! Who cares about a stupid car???? I asked if he was truly okay and if anybody was injured. You know the story from above. A true miracle.

Later after taking the trains home, my very shaken husband met me and threw his arms around me. He was worried about ME and the kidsall alone and so far away. I cannot begin to tell you the relief we both felt when we were reunited and could touch each other and reassure each other that all was well. He said, "It was a miracle." I looked him straight in the eye and said,"It surely was. And you know who you can thank for that. You should get down on your knees and tell HIM so!" AND HE DID! A man who did NOT believe.A man who would not let his pride allow him to believe in something as insubstantial and unprovable as God (yeah, right!)A man who only saw the evil in all of organized religion and all the mayhem that religion has brought throughout the centuries. These were his words of denial through all of our years together.

He said, "Either I experienced the most incredible chain of miracles (other things happened too numerous to mention here)or there really is a God." Yes, Virginia, THERE REALLY IS A GOD!! Hallelujah! We both were down on our knees.I was repeating the very same words that I had spoken shortly after my early morning phone call. Thank you God. Thank you for hearing my prayer and sending your angel to protect my husband. Thank you for loving me. Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!

We are called to witness to HIS love. May this inspire others to do the same. He is risen. He is risen indeed. He lives . And he hears us. And his love is unconditional. Praise God. Thank you all for listening.

-- Alice (Looking@glass.com), February 29, 2000

Answers

Thank you, Alice, for your statement of faith. I hope your husband goes forward from the point he reached.

-- rocky (rknolls@no.spam), February 29, 2000.

Sounds good, I'm glad everything is turning out fine. But I wouldn't confuse this with the Lord. Sometimes things just happen.

It's too bad that many Christains got bad holy spirit vibs (inner voice whatever) from this y2k non-event. I was duped into thinking the holy spirit was guiding me (to prepare that is).

-- Larry (cobol.programmer@usa.net), February 29, 2000.

Praise God! What a testimony! Bless you Alice and your family. May he continue to believe \

-- I Believe (Repent@time is now.com), February 29, 2000.

---I'm really glad that your husband got religion,really, too bad that BOTH of you forgot to take the passports, and in order to have a nice foreign jaunt,that he decided that your schedule was more important than the other drivers out on the road, and he was not needing sleep when he so obviously did, and decided to put everyone else at risk. Common sense doesn't need religion. And he's a "scientist"? Hope he doesn't work on anything important, there's some pretty bad judgement there.

This isn't a cruel ranking, really, just pointing out the obvious of "priorities" and safety. No one lives in a vacuum, your actions always effect other people, even if you forget that they do. More people need to wake up to the fact that the high speed "go-go" world is destructive. time to take it down a notch, methinks...

-- pleasedon't (takeit@personal.it's.not), February 29, 2000.

Come on Larry--Bad holy spirit vibs?? Duped into preparing?? Yes, sometimes things just happen and sometimes God allows a wake up call. I believe that we can give credit or thanks to the Lord if we so choose. After all He is the God of the impossible.

Do not let these good people steal your JOY Alice. Shout it from the mountain tops. Our God reigns and still sits on the throne!!

-- I Believe (Repent@time is now.com), February 29, 2000.

Once you know the Lord you will never again believe in "coincidence". Such a beautiful story Alice, thankyou.

nancy

-- NH (new@mindspring.com), February 29, 2000.

What about all the fatal accidents where there is no miracle? Are you saying that none of these people have been prayed for?

The common meaning of "miracle" is simply, "very lucky." It's a value judgement of a chaing of circumstances. Recovery from any serious disease could be deemed a miracle, even though it may be simply due to the body's amazing healing ability. A true miracle is divine intervention, a supernatural event.

It's all to facile to believe in miracles if you only focus on the quirky good luck events in the world, and discount all the suffering and misery. Tornadoes don't spare churches.

Nevertheless, I am very happy to hear how lucky your family turned out to be in this circumstance. I have wanted to believe in God (and especially life after death--now there's an oxymoron) all my life, but I remain unconvinced. It's not enough to want to believe in something, it's all too easy to become self-deluded that way. You can't rely on subjective reality. I think it's more important to be rational and honest with yourself, and surely God would applaud that.

If God wanted to tamper with out free will, there would be all kinds of wonderful things he could do for us, including answering our prayers. But this world is ours to live in, and we can't expect our Parent to take care of us all our lives, even after we've grown up!

I think God/Jesus/religion falls in the same category as Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny. All of these things we believed in as children, and eventually found out they were fictional. Seems few people have discovered the truth about what we were told about God as children, and very few adults have grown out of a wishful thinking that we are still being taken care of by some super-Daddy in the sky.

"The Bible is the Word of God." "How do you know?" "Because my daddy told me." "Who told him?" "The preacher." "Who told the preacher?" "The preacher's daddy." "Who told him?" ad nauseum, all the way back to Abraham? Why should we believe something just because it's been passed down through the ages. So has all kinds of superstition and religious nonsense, such as the earth-centered universe. (It's somewhat understandable, human ego being what it is, to try to disprove evolution because it contradicts Biblical creation, but a Copernican solar system--with the sun at the center-- also contradicts a literal reading of the bible. You don't see bible- thumpers trying to get the Copernican solar system labeled as a mere theory with disclaimers in textbooks! Sheesh!)

I've gone through times in my life that were less than rational, and in some of those times I have become religous, even hyperreligious (I was "saved", you know). But it just doesn't work for me. I can't be myself and still be a believer in something unprovable and so far unaccessible in my personal experience.

If there is God, he is going to be the god of all beings in the universe and will be applicable to all cultures, all societies, all psychologies. There should be some things about God that are discoverable, even provable. We're not there yet, so I'd rather keep my belief system uncluttered for now.

I can't invalidate anyone else's belief. God may exist, and you can be sure of it, and if that's your truth, it's your reality, and cannot be disputed. (Bumper sticker: "God said it. I believe it. That settles it." Arrggh.)

But some people have been abducted by UFOs, according to their reality. While I think extraterrestrial or time-traveler visitation is a real possibility, I don't "believe" in UFOs. I don't disbelieve either, I just don't have any way of convincing myself, at least without an extraordinary personal experience.

As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Where's the beef?

Anyway, there is so much hypocrisy in the pracitioners of organized religion that it can't be very appealing to anyone with a conscience, unless you can somehow jettison the accumulated baggage, cultural infiltration, and assorted BS of the last several thousands years and distill God's truth into some kind of purified belief system. Either that or buy into another gob of claptrap and tomfoolery: the New Age.

I sound like an atheist, but that's also a belief system. How can I possibly be sure there is no God? How can I be sure there is? Why should I simply accept something, *invented by man*, on faith alone?

-- Ceemeister (ceemeister@hotmail.com), February 29, 2000.

please don't, I agree with you totally. It's people that drive when they are dead tired that end up killing innocent people. Sorry I don't consider this a miracle. I prefer common sense and logic. Religion may do wonders for inner peace, but in day to day living common sense and logic should prevail. This was just plain luck. Hundreds of the faithful are killed everyday by crashes with trucks.

Several years ago I rode with my parents to another state to see my sister. We spent the night in a motel, and got up to very icy roads. My father was a very careful driver, but cars were going off the road right and left. Suddenly, the car in front of us flew across the highway and down a steep embankment. The car was a total wreck.

My dad turned around and came back to help the woman with two small children. He saw that they were not seriously injured, and other men joined him in helping get the woman and her children up to our cars. A woman standing on the road said, "Thank God for saving you." The mother said, "No thank these men for saving us."

Don't be so hard on yourself Larry. I wasn't duped into preparing for Y2K; it was my own decision. But I admit I was stupid and gullible and fell into the trap of fear and insecurity, even worse, I listened to the end of the world crazies for this non-event. Live and learn.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), February 29, 2000.

I'm sorry that some of you don't understand. My husband is very busy and only human. He did not think he was that tired. He truly didn't. I imagine that the ones responding were women....as I am. We talked about this later. He said that it was funny that you know folks this happens to and you hear about it all the time, but you never believe that it will happen to you. My brother is a doctor and it happened to him. He sees it all the time and believe me when I say that he KNOWS the dangers and what can happen.

Men are different. They are the risk takers. They don't learn as easily as women from the mistakes of others. It is in their nature. Men are the explorers. Yes, there are exceptions, but the very quality that we admire, often puts them and others at risk.

I am sorry that my husband and others do not meet with your high expectations. I on the other hand understand. He made a mistake.

No, God does not always answer prayers in the way that WE would like HIM to. I lost a child many years ago and believe me when I say that I prayed about it as did many others. I don't blame God. There is a time for all things under Heaven. I believe that God chose this time to reveal himself to my husband.

Unless it happens to you, you cannot understand. Unless you are ready for it, you will not believe. I understand your feelings completely. I've heard the arguments before.

I accept that you do not accept. But I do. My God was merciful this time. He not only saved my husband's life, but the truck driver's as well...and mine and my daughters...possibly my infant son who would have been on the other side of the car. They call them accidents because they are not planned. Had he felt tired, I assure you he would not have gotten into that car. You do not know him, please do not judge him. He stopped every hour and had coffee and walked around. He took precautions and yet he fell asleep. God held him in the hollow of his hand.

I wish I knew why my other child was taken from me. Some day I will understand these things...when I am with my Maker. I do not question his judgment. He knows everything and loves me. He doesn't make mistakes. I simply accept that HIS way is perfect and mine is filled with HIM.

Had I known better, I would have done better. Had my husband known better, he would have done better. People makes mistakes, but GOD never does.

May God enter your lives in a way that you can understand and accept. God Bless YOu ALL!

-- Alice (Looking@glass.com), February 29, 2000.

Bless you heart, Alice. I know you are a sweet person. You have had an incredible experience. I just don't see how it is relevant to anyone else.

My wife and I also lost our first baby. Being religious, my wife found the loss very difficult to reconcile with her faith. Why our baby? Why would he let it happen? (It's too easy to say that God works in mysterious ways. That just obfuscates the question.)

I didn't have any trouble reconciling the loss with my worldview. Bad things happen to good people. And bad people. All people. It just happens. No grand explanation. A baby is lost due to "incompetent cervix," a simple biological malfunction. No purpose or meaning behind it. But our brains are designed to seek patterns and meaning, and either science, superstition, or religion can fill that void.

I guess God is something that has to be left to the heart, because it doesn't work in the head. Can God create an object so heavy that even he can't lift it? Ridiculous, but the mind of reason demands an answer.

-- Ceemeister (ceemeister@hotmail.com), February 29, 2000.

Alice,

Simply, ** thank you ** for both your original post and for your subsequent followup.

Thanks!

-- redeye in ohio (not@work.com), February 29, 2000.

Thank you Ceemeister. I too understand that you simply disagree with me. I have lived with my husband too long to take offense. Perhaps I can help with your own loss. I cannot presume to know the way or the mind of God. But this is how I rationalized the loss of my son all those many years ago. And yes, there was anger and blame at first. I am no Saint.

If we are indeed eternal as God has said via our souls, then what is death really? On this side of mortality, it is EVERYTHING. On God's side, it is but a brief and flickering moment. Seen through his "eyes" your child is not dead, but eternal and with him. That is what eventually my heart was lead to believe. Did I and do I suffer greatly anyway? Yes , of course I do. But I must remember, that MY child is also HIS child. HE knows more than I do. HE is the alpha and the omega...knowing the beginning , the middle and the end of all stories.

I have learned a great deal about myself and others through my loss. I hope I have become a better person. I know I am more empathetic. My child is not gone to me, merely living with his FATHER in heaven.

This gives no comfort to many and to others it is everything. I hope this helps. If all was candy and spice in the world, where would be the growth? Why would life hold any importance at all? HOw would you even know what evil or goodness were? How can you know black without knowing white?

As to the simplistic question of: Can God make an object so heavy that HE cannot lift it...I answered that one a long time ago. Yes, Of course he can...Huh? Then, as HE is all, HE can also answer No. Both are equally true. Quantum physics will bear me out on this one. Causality has been broken in that field. Think about it.

Bless you Ceemeister.

-- Alice (Looking@glass.com), February 29, 2000.

Let's use the words fortunate or blessed that he is alive......the word miracle is thrown around just a bit too much. I mean, would you be tossing that word out if he had been killed. It's funny logic to give God credit when it works out but not to give him credit for the crap that happens too.....another story!

Bottom line: It is incredibly stupid to drive when one is tired. Better be thankful for his blessing and hopefully has learned a lesson.

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), February 29, 2000.

Alice, I'm sure you believe it was a miracle. And everyone has the right to believe what they choose. But I, like Craig, think that saying God is responsible for all the good that happens, but denying that God has anything to do with bad things is rather childish. It was simply luck. In fact some religions frown on people calling everyday good events miracles. Actually miracles have to undergo intense scrutiny to be termed a miracle. But your husband became a believer as a result of the accident, so I'm sure to you this was a miracle.

I was raised in a Christian home. When I was grown, I began to think for myself, and to study other points of view and it didn't make sense to continue being dependent on a Big Daddy in the sky. Oh, it would be wonderful to be able to believe that. What a relief to just say, God will take care of this. But as I have my feet planted firmly on the ground, and I believe in reason and logic, and I've had enough bad happen to know that calling on God doesn't always work, then I refuse to attribute good things to him or bad things to him. I beileve that if there is a God, he/she/it is unknown and unknowable. I can live with that.

When my husband was killed in an auto accident, by an angry drunk, while wide awake, I saw nothing but an unlucky tragedy caused by someone that shouldn't have been driving. The drunk received minor injuries. The drunk also said that God saved him.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), February 29, 2000.

It's bedtime...actually past it...here in Europe. So, this will be my last post here tonight...I'll be interested to see the responses in the morning.

I knew there would be those who didn't believe. I used to be standing where each of you were. I understand your disbelief. It didn't happen to you.

By definition, a miracle is something that happens for the good...of somebody. So the fact that I give credit to God for something good and call it a miracle is not incorrect. You may not call it a miracle, that is certainly your perogative.

As to scrutinizing miracles. I leave that up to doubters. I did not ask that my husband be named a saint...so it does not have to be verified in the Catholic church...you are incorrect in assuming that verification is necessary. It was a personal miracle.

Some folk believe that if the Red Sea didn't part, then there was no miracle...I used to believe that too. In fact, I asked that very question in confirmation many years ago..."How come God doesn't do miracles anymore?" I have come to realize that when he sent his Son to atone for our sins, that was the greatest miracle that he could ever perform...How could he ever top it and why should he. He sent the ultimate proof of his LOVE and left it up to our independent free will to accept or deny this evidence. You cannot prove God. It is an act of Faith. I will not defend it anymore than you can deny it. Your act of denial is also based on faith, whether you are willing to accept that or not.

You cannot prove that there IS no God. Because he does not conform to your expectations, does not mean that he does not exist. I know that I certainly do not conform to HIS expectations. Every day is a struggle to do better in HIS eyes. More often I fail than succeed.

Why the great necessity to deny me my miracle? I am not a cult. I am no threat to you. Or am I? Do you fear that I may be right? Please don't fear God. He loves us all. Right where we are.

If you are not ready to receive HIS love, then you are not ready. I accept that. It is , after all, ALL IN HIS HANDS. My post was merely my witness to his LOVE in MY life. I hope that it touched yours as well. At least, I can see it made some of you pause long enough to disagree with me. For that I am truly grateful...even to have placed HIM in front of you for just a moment this day.

God bless all of you and good night.

-- Alice (Looking@glass.com), February 29, 2000.

Ceemiester, you said, "I guess God is something that has to be left to the heart, because it doesn't work in the head."

If you would _really_ like to try to prove that God exists, try this exercise (which is very tedious and time-consuming):

Read a good translation of the Bible, old and new testaments, but primarily old.

Extract the prophecies where God is claiming that something in the future will happen.

Check to see if what was prophecied came to pass.

When doing this exercise, it would help if you would approach it with the notion that you are going to gather everything that the Bible has to say on a subject before you determine what it does say. If there are any apparent contradictions, try to figure out how they could all be true. Assume that what it says is true, not that it is false. If you assume that it is true and try to figure out how some of the things that are said could be true it can lead to interesting revelations.

George

-- George Valentine (georgevalentine@usa.net), February 29, 2000.

Alice, thank you for sharing your story! Isn't it awesome to know that God's love is unconditional? He loves every one of us, no matter what!

-- Gayla (privacy@please.com), February 29, 2000.

Not OT at all.

Have a dear friend named Mary Gonzalez whose battle cry is "spiritual warfare". Now in use by third generation in our family. Love that image of kicking demonic a**.

God brought us all here for a reason. I do truly enjoy the association between Mary's battlecry and the Info Warrior thread posted yesterday.

Believer, non-believer, God don't care, Chillun. He has a sense of humor and I do believe this Forum is under the aegis of the Spirit.

Now when I post again I'll revert to sarcasm mode. By the way, this is the second attempt to post to this thread, so in honor of Mary Gonzalez, "Spiritual Warfare and the Devil be Damned".

-- little wifey (littlewifey@home.com), February 29, 2000.

George, it's kind of hard to validate Biblical prophecies, especially since they require expert interpretation, which interpretation varies widely. Anyway, if what you say can be borne out, any competent researcher could provide his conclusions, which could be checked against the conclusions of others. This at least somewhat resembles the scientific method. A verifiable, repeatable result is hard to argue with, and that helps the credibility of scientific revelation.

-- Ceemeister (ceemeister@hotmail.com), February 29, 2000.

It seems to be true, from what I have read (remedial 001), that some ( or much) parts of the actual text of the KJV, (maybe the others too) may have been distorted from the original language interperation. And this may have been part of the plan for "confusion". But to have a belief, in a "Higher", rather than a statue, a doctrine of a particular church, I hope, shows our faith. Not only to each other, but hopefully to Heaven and ourselves. The human body dies. Through design or disease. While the living are left, racked with the pain, we turn bitter, with fist raised to Heaven, while tears stream down our face. This was MY LIFE, I AM HURTING! How many humans on this earth? Does all revolve around ME? I think not. What about the Homeless with their carts, we walk by without so much as a kind smile, much less $5.00 to them. What about all the EarthQuake/Hurricane/flood/etc people in your/my Nation. The pain does not touch me until I see my relatives casket . It is time, we help, one another.

-- Help (one@nother.com), February 29, 2000.

Alice; Your story has happy parts and sad parts, I think what others don't see is, "That your husband is not done with his work here", It was not his time, ( he didn't have change for the bus )... You did mention he was a scientist, what he will discover soon will benefit others all over the globe. Because he is part of a series of events that will assist our thinking. Your story is just part of those events beginning to appear. Enjoy his happiness of a continuation of life.

-- Furie (furieart@webworkz.com), February 29, 2000.

Apostacy thread? Cool! Where? Link anyone please?

Sucks when your modem fritzes for a few days, and you miss all the good mud slingin'!!!

-- Hokie (Hokie_@hotmail.com), February 29, 2000.

Alice, I am very happy for you and your family! Reminds me of that story a few years back where a bomb exploded in a cafeteria, and none of the kids were hurt. THEY said they were surrounded by angels. Magical thinking of the simple-minded? The soot outlined the angels on the walls of the cafeteria. No adults were in that part of the cafeteria, and so the scientific experts cannot explain...so who here was simple-minded then?

It's said that in the last days we will starve from lack of the Word. Open a King James version next to a Catholic, and this prophecy is fulfilled. Perhaps your husband's flight from the church was not his flight FROM God, but TO God, in a screwy sort of way? Scientists are detail peole. Maybe a King James version, with one of those uh what-cha-call-its concordance? with the split page ancient language definition? would wet your husband's whistle?

-- Hokie (Hokie_@hotmail.com), March 01, 2000.

Hokie~

Here is the Apostasy thread:

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002eRS

Here is the original thread:

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002e00

Enjoy!

-- Alice (Looking@glass.com), March 01, 2000.

Wow, Alice. That is really neat.

The greatest miracle is for someone to find God.

Your story encourages me to continue to pray for my loved ones who will currently accept anything except the God of the Bible (they won't even consider that option) even though they are, visibly at this point, being damaged by what they choose instead.

I often feel that words are useless to communicate with them--what I'm saying changes in the air before it gets to their brain (I've never met anyone who does this as much as my dad--you'd think we weren't speaking English to each other).

But you remind me that God's timing is perfect. And that what can be done, will be done.

-- S. Kohl (kohl@hcpd.com), March 01, 2000.

God Bless YOU S. Kohl! God moves in ways we cannot understand. But I always have believed that he moves in our best interests....though we cannot know that at the time. Prayer (and faith like a grain of mustard seed) can move mountains (of denial?) indeed.

I hope and pray that those you love will be "in the right place at the right time" too. He is always with us....if we only choose to accept him into our hearts and our lives. What an inheritance he has given us through his Son, Jesus. Amen.

-- Alice (Looking@glass.com), March 01, 2000.

Amen...

-- Sinner (among@ll.com), March 01, 2000.