Ok i finally made a super vcd (woohoo). I have two dvd players that can also read higher bit rate stuff. The clip i used was only 4mins and was at a bitrate of 2500 (not sure if that has anything to do with it). i made it as a bare esentials, no menus, pics, etc Next once it was done i put it in my Pioneer 525 expecting it not to play the format, well vcd shows up on the display and it played perfect!!!!! So i took it one more step to make sure i actually indeed made a super vcd. I put it in my apex ad600a dvd player (it can play super vcds) and yup as i guessed it displayed it as being a super vcd!!!

Now their are some things i still have to resaerch, in general the pioneer 525 will allow a bitrate of 2500 as its max for vcd, so from what i gather a super vcd can have a bitrate of 2600. With this in mind i will try this little test. i will also try this little test in my apex player as well---thanks

-- Doug (mazinz@aol.com), February 26, 2000

Answers

Doug

Now you have a golden opportunity to put us all in the picture. Your DVD player does it all. Lets have a VCD, SVCD and a HR VCD from the same source material viewed on the same TV from the same DVD player on a CD-R. Subjectively which is the best?

Thanks, I note that SVCD uses a maximum of 2600Kb/s which is a big bit below what I used for my tests also posted here (CBR 10000kb/s and 3584kb/s).

Interesting that I can play 10000kb/s files on the 233mmx computer smooth as silk, have you tried that with a software decoder? Does the computer play these SVCD's and HR VCD's smoothly?

I await your impressions and comments!

-- Ross McL (rmclennan@esc.net.au), February 27, 2000.

Hey Ross, my computer always played my highrate vcds smooth (using the latest version of windows media player). I posted a reply to you in your post about super vcd. So the test for super vcd for me is done. As i said in the post if im using the same end clip i made for a HRvcd and Super vcd the results will be the same so whats the point. But i can tell you that the HR and super i made do look a bit better then the 115 normal vcd.

THE TESTING: i figured even though i made the super vcd and the Pionneer 525 played it anyway. i can almost guarentee you it will not play one at a bitrate of 2600. Why? i will tell you i madea HR vcd with 2600 and the audio skipped. I finally found that 2500 was its max, so regardless of which, i have the strong feeling if i made an svcd with a rate of 2600 it would skip as well, but i will test it to firmly confirm it. i will also try this with the apex (the apex too handeled up to 2500 bit, although that is made to play super vcds)

-- Doug (mazinz@aol.com), February 27, 2000.

THE RESULTS

HMMM this is really strange it would not let me make a super vcd with a bitrate of 2600. It gave me a message saying the bitrate was too high and to lower it. So i guess unless i did something wrong, that a super vcd can be up to a 2500 bitrate???. So i couldnt do a confirm test for the Pioneer 525, however if you go by my last results, it did not say it was a super vcd, it just said vcd, but it played it fine anyway, while my Apex said it was a super vcd and played it fine as well.---thanks

-- Doug (mazinz@aol.com), February 27, 2000.

Doug, Please list your software(s) and step that you do to create the SVCD. I have Enreach, Panasonic & LSX, virtual Dub 1.3, All burning softwares. What else do I need? lnguyen

-- (wingstarzz@hotmail.com), February 27, 2000.

ok, i dont use avi. i use the dazzle to capture as an mpeg of 3000, then as usual i convert it to 2500vcd format. I then use the dvmpeg program because it has a demuxer and it makes them the right files (mpv,mp2). Then i open the i-author program. I then use thier remux and mix back my 2 files. This will make the new file an .mps , once that is done i go to new under file and make a new project it then ask if im making a vcd or supervcd, i pick supervcd and then its just a matter of adding items. Once that is done i go to "tools". It says "create cif image" so you do that. From here, i open the adaptec (i have 4.0) i then click pretty much and option i want (you can even open it under audio) i go to file and select "create cd from cif image (or just image) and it loads it in and burns and then its done. But for me and how i capture a super vcd and a highrate will look the same becasue i am using the same end product (unless i want to add in menus and such then i can see more reasons for svcd). However i know a lot of you will be using an avi file so its probably more worth it to you

-- Doug (mazinz@aol.com), February 27, 2000.

my previous post had some typos so read this one instead

ok, i dont use avi. i use the dazzle to capture as an mpeg of 3000, then as usual i convert it to 2500vcd format. I then use the dvmpeg program because it has a demuxer and it makes them the right files (mpv,mp2). Then i open the i-author program. I then use thier remux and mix back my 2 files. This will make the new file an .mps , once that is done i go to "new" under file and make a new project it then ask if im making a vcd or supervcd, i pick supervcd and then its just a matter of adding items. Once that is done i go to "tools". It says "create cif image" so you do that. From here, i open the adaptec (i have 4.0) i then click pretty much any option i want (you can even open it under audio) i go to file and select "create cd from cif image (or just image) and it loads it in and burns and then its done. But for me and how i capture a super vcd and a highrate will look the same becasue i am using the same end product (unless i want to add in menus and such then i can see more reasons for svcd). However i know a lot of you will be using an avi file so its probably more worth it to you

-- Doug (mazinz@aol.com), February 27, 2000.

Doug, Thanks for the quick response. The ATI AIW 128 can record in mpeg2 format in D1 NTSC 720x480 and save it to mp2 format. I wonder I can use that to make the SVCD? lnguyen

-- (wingstarzz@hotmail.com), February 27, 2000.

Doug,

Did you resize the frame format to 480x480? Did you use VBR or CBR for the SVCD? MpegVCR3.0 has the capability to convert mpeg1 stream to mpeg2 VBR. It also has mux/demux capability as well. I want to see if the SVCD at 480x480 has any advantage over VCD. I know it will take up more space then VCD (45min vs 74min). Well if it anywhere close to DVD quality then it's worth it. If it is still the same as VHS or S-VHS, well I'd stick with VCD or XVCD.

-- lnguyen (wingstarzz@hotmail.com), February 27, 2000.

Another thing, do you have to use EZ CD to burn the image? can you use other burning software such as Nero or NTI instead? If i can help it, I'd rather stay away from EZ CD. Thanks.

-- lnguyen (wingstarzz@hotmail.com), February 27, 2000.

Beside the higher bitrate (up to 2500 kbits/s) the Pioneer 525 plays also mpegs with a resolution of 704x576 flawless. I used the Panasonic MPEG1 Encoder for the encoding and burned the cdr with Nero. The picture is much sharper and clearer than on a standard vcd, almost DVD quality :-)

-- Walter Wego (WalterWego@wego.8m.com), February 27, 2000.

hey Walter and Inguyen

Walter: what do you mean by a resolution? Do you mean it played mpeg movie clips or mpeg photos?? if its clips you lost with with the 704x576 or does this refer to an avi size befroe encoding to mpeg..

Inguyen--i didnt resize a damn thing. The dazzle captures at the 352x240 size but it still let me use it with no problems. Unfortunetly it doesnt look like its made to be used with another program (unless you have something else that will read the .cif file) when i use the panasonic to encdoe at 2500 i make sure the vbr buffer rate is 150 no more then this otherwise it skips in my players

-- Doug (mazinz@aol.com), February 27, 2000.

damn the typos, ok walter what i meant to say was "if its photos, do you mean the 704x576 was the photot size or does this refer to the size of your capture with avi befroe encoding?

-- Doug (mazinz@aol.com), February 27, 2000.

hi doug,

i mean the frame size of the mpeg movie, which you burn on cdr. Normaly on a standard vcd the movie must be 352x288 (VCD/PAL). Only mpeg photos in vcd menus can have a higher resolution (704x576). But the pioneer 525 can also play mpeg MOVIES in this high resolution. I encoded a sample movie with the panasonic encoder (VCD/PAL, 704x576, video 2000 kbits/s, audio 224 kbits/s) and it plays flawlessly on my dv-525.

-- Walter Wego (WalterWego@wego.8m.com), February 27, 2000.

Looks like the Pioneer 525 is about to have a bumper year. It seems to do exactly what the RealMagic Hollywood Pro decoder card + DVDrom allows on a computer and TV.

lnguyen: it will be interesting to see if you can get VBR to work on the 525 because as we know that produces a higher quality at a smaller file size. Apart from selling the product the system discussed here will change home brewed CD's for ever.

-- Ross McL (rmclennan@esc.net.au), February 27, 2000.

Walter: given that a DV camera provides a 720 x 576 PAL frame are you doing a 704 wide resize or is the source 704 wide? The DV codec I must use doesnot allow direct resizing unless one uses the Panasonic and of course thats no big deal in an avi based process, its just as easy to produce 704 as it is 720. The LSX3 Build 20 encoder does not allow resizing so thats why I have had to use 720 wide mpeg 1 or 2's for testing its relative performance. Panasonic does not allow VBR like the LSX does either.

-- Ross McL (rmclennan@esc.net.au), February 27, 2000.

Hey Ross, I might be getting this confused with something else but the panasonic lets you change the vbr rate before encoding. i had to do this in order to make my 2500bit vcds. Otherwise when i tried to encode normally i kept getting "increase vbr rate or video data rate" so in the advanced options i changed the vbr rate to 150

-- Doug (mazinz@aol.com), February 27, 2000.

Hey guys,

Here is what i did. Captured the clip using ATI in mpeg2 format video D2 352x480 GOP 9,3 2500kps audio 192kps @ 44.1kHz 16bit stereo. Use DVMpeg to demux it to separate component. Use I-author to remux it to mps and it was ok. Everything went ok and the mps clip plays in mplayer super fine (ATI captured the clip in interlace mode). but when i make a disc image of this it dump on me saying something about wrong header in the mps file. What did i do wrong here?

-- lnguyen (wingstarzz@hotmail.com), February 27, 2000.

Hi Doug

What your talking of, I think, is simply changing the bit rate that is constant thro'out the encode.

Variable Bit Rate VBR is something that varies during the encoding cycle, frame by frame, to adjust to the detail in a frame which can vary like crazy depending on the subject.

DVD allows for up to a 9.8Mb/s bit rate and in the posting of my tests with mpeg2 when using the variable bit rate option at 9.8mb/s as the maximum gave a file nearly half the size of the one that was done with a constant bit rate CBR of 9.8mb/s, the resulting file didnot appear to be better or worse than the high rate file in CBR.

I do not think Panasonic allows VBR but LSX does.

Its likey that a VBR mpeg-1 file will be equally as good as one in CBR but with a file size of less so more fits on the CD. I know the RealMagic decoder card plays these files but I have no idea if the 525 set top will, hence my questions.

-- Ross McL (rmclennan@esc.net.au), February 27, 2000.

when you do your capture DO NOT make it an mpeg 2 just do it as a normal mpeg and it should work. That is what i have done with my files and they worked

-- Doug (mazinz@aol.com), February 27, 2000.

Doug, I do not have the facility of mpeg capture as a source for a vcd, I am locked into the NLE AVI process (like it or not) using the Adaptec DVsoft Type 2 codec and I have for a long time archived my vcd's in DVD compliant Mpeg2 for use in the Panasonic encoder should that be required down the track. I have never had the option to go from the NLE timeline in Mpeg2 and I need to try that option to see what happens and whether it gives quality in a shorter processing time.

-- Ross McL (rmclennan@esc.net.au), February 28, 2000.

hey Ross,

my last post was meant for Inguyen who said the i-author was giving him problems with is mpeg 2 headers

-- Doug (mazinz@aol.com), February 28, 2000.

Doug,

Ok, I did tried your option in mpeg1 as it 352x240 @ 2500kbs. Everything went well with demuxing and muxing. Capture a picture in 24bit bmp @ 480x480. Go to I-author to create svcd as follow: New project - save name.pjt Wizard came up add track = video.mps add picture to menu = pic1.bmp add play item = video.mps Everything went ok to this point, something interesting... menu item shows the picture, but play item didn't show the clip? Anyway, went to create cif file and it errors out during muxing menu item saying unknown error while reading an unknown file and lock up. What gives?

-- lnguyen (wingstarzz@hotmail.com), February 28, 2000.

Hi Doug

Nearly as good as ICQ - this thread is getting pretty complex in content.

Thanks, good news that the 525 is also capable of PAL to NTSC conversions, see another post. A friend in Mexico played my PAL vcd on an NTSC TV with a 525 in full color and at full frame. Some unit!

-- Ross McL (rmclennan@esc.net.au), February 28, 2000.

Ross, What did MrVCD meant about LSX 3.0 SVCD profile 3.0.2? Is it a plug-in or somesort?

-- lnguyen (wingstarzz@hotmail.com), February 28, 2000.

Ross,

Yep, it does! My other pioneer 302 also does it. I have been playing PAL VCD in it.

-- (wingstarzz@hotmail.com), February 28, 2000.

Hi Ross,

my source is a PAL-DVD (720x576) and i let the Panasoinc Encoder doing the resize to 704x576. I used this resolution because i've read in rec.video.desktop about problems with 720x576 frame size on the dv- 525. Maybe this is not true and 720x576 works too. Unfortunately i can't do extensive tests, because my cd-writer isn't capable of burning CDRWs.

-- Walter Wego (WalterWego@wego.8m.com), February 28, 2000.

I contacted LSX direct and got a reply by return from Bill Saint John who has now left (got another today from the person who has taken over) and the latest LSX is 3.0 build 20 and they are amazed in what is supposed to be available in pirated versions on the web.

They said these were pirated version numbers, 3.0.1 was not useable, then 3.0.2 came and they said 3.0.3 was probably the latest as build 20. They, like me, wish people would quote the correct versions. Having paid full bucks for mine I had no idea what happened in a pirated version and I thought I might have missed an update.

So I do not know what the SVCD presets were and I have not had time or the interest to setup a preset based on what bbMPEG used. Trouble with LSX is it will not resize so they miss out on a lot and to use it I would have to make an AVI of the correct size, bbMPEG will do fine. You must have the correct size unless somehow the pirate version resizes. That is a real problem with LSX plus its 2G input limit. Essentually I have wasted $300US because apart from a bit of testing I do not use it, particularly when they stuffed up in Version 3 with image quality when compared to version 2.51

-- Ross McL (rmclennan@esc.net.au), February 29, 2000.

WALTER: thanks I thought you might have as some DVD set tops players seem to play that size better, its a pain that a DVD camera, mini or D8 gives a frame of 720 x 576 PAL and 720 x 480 (NTSC) well the Sony's do. Funny thing is that if a play a circle full screen on the PC using the Pioneer 104/Hollywood Plus decoder the best cirle is the 720 based one and not one from a 704 encode.

I received an email from a Company Director in the States, 3 in a row saying the same thing that the proper size was 704 not 720 but there has been no answer on the problem of cameras presumably giving the wrong sizes as well.

Gezzzzzzzzzzzzz! Even the DV coded I must use are 720 wide for NLE so it all beats me because they cannot be resized into the 704 from the timeline if thats what we must use! Nothing seems to have consistancy in the specification does it.

The thing about DVD specs is that a 720 wide frame is one of the standard sizes and they should play that size to meet the spec.

-- Ross McL (rmclennan@esc.net.au), February 29, 2000.

Concerning LSX and SVCD compatibility, there is something floating around the net (i dont know where) but they are profiles for SVCD for use with LSX 3.0 I would not say they are a plugin, but you just copy them to the profiles folder of LSX 3.0 and when you go to LSX's profile manager, you can see SVCD compatibility.

By default, LSX 3.0 does not have SVCD compatiblity but if you have the profiles for SVCD (and I assume someone made them), then you can have SVCD compatiblity in LSX 3.0

This is REALLY convenient since it has the exact bitrates for SVCD instead of guessing what they are. It would be a shame to spend hours encoding an mpeg2 stream only to plug it into I-Author and finding out your bitrate is too high.

-- MrVCD (mrvcd@juno.com), March 01, 2000.

It is also worth mentioning that the SVCD profiles for LSX 3.0 has a VBR option as well as a requried option. This is for video, as the audio bitrate is fixed at 224kbps MP2 format.

In case people want to know here are the settings for non VBR (in LSX SVCD profiles, it is known as required) files:

NTSC- 480X480 resolution, Data rate: 2569kbps (audio 224kbps MP2, video 2320kbps MPEG-2) 29.97 frames per second

LSX 3.0 SVCD profiles also includes 352X480 resolutions and other SVCD/MPEG2 settings

-- MrVCD (mrvcd@juno.com), March 01, 2000.

Thanks for that MrVCD, now we all know where the presets for SVCD came from.

How do you, or what do you do to get a file of 480 x 480 to feed into the LSX encoder. In LSX built 20 it has to be an AVI and of the correct size but with bbMPEG it will resize the input file.

By comparison with LSX the stand alone version of bbMPEG will batch input files into a single output file where as the LSX encoder is subject to a 2G input limit for the feeder AVI and that is not much if a quality avi is used, at 3.6M/s DV thats only 9 minutes but more if you accept a lower quality of input and maybe output.

In an NLE based process using Premiere you can actually cut up a file on the time line including any music without lossing it in the join up process during encoding. The encoding is very time consuming of course. But then again if your using NLE straight from the time line will save a lot of time and not be subject to any 2G limit provided you think the quality is OK.

-- Ross McL (rmclennan@esc.net.au), March 01, 2000.