I am thinking about marriage myself right now & wondering what you all think about the institution. (Not you Colleen...KIDDING!! ) I used to think I didn't want to spend my life in an institution (bad joke, I know) but now I am not so sure....

Anyone? Everyone???

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

Answers

I was living with my better half for 6 years before his ex went nuts and he got custody of his children. It was awkward with the kids around and dealing with the schools, doctors etc. So I decided to get married to make it easier on everyone. We both think its definetly made us more in love with each other than ever. If you are absolutely POSITIVE you have met the right man, than I say go for it. (BTW, I was the one who made the appointment with the Justice of the Peace, I told him on the phone and he was like "O.K., whatever you want.") :-)

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

Well, I got married 2 years ago to someone that I liked a lot, and was very much in love with, and now I'm divorced. Because, when it came down to it, once we were married he felt like he could put me in a position of "choose between X and me" where X might be friends, hobbies, my job, my future in my career, etc. If he'd been more secure it probably wouldn't have been an issue, because we could have worked together. Instead, he was always testing to see how much I'd give up for him. The camel's back broke when my research group was about to move to San Diego and I was going to be out of a job and he wouldn't even start to look into finding a job somewhere other than where we lived.

None of this came out before the various pieces of paper (first a house mortgage, then a marriage license) were signed.

There is a legitimate element of "choose between X and me" in a marriage, too, and I didn't realize that viscerally until after it had happened. I wasn't prepared for how it would affect me.

It changes things.

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

Even though I was excluded from the question, I'm answering anyway :)

As a kid I never thought I'd want to get married. My parents had an appalling marriage, all my friends parents had pathetic marriages. My mother never said a good word about it, and in fact, she discouraged it. She stressed independance and taking care of ones self.

Somehow though, I got the bug after my best friend got married. Long story short, I got engaged and got dumped at the alter. I was ABSOLUTELY sworn off marriage at that point.

Insert Dave into Picture.

For the first couple of years I didn't think much about getting married. We moved in together, we got dogs, we were happy. Everyone else was giving us grief about it, but neither of us was in any hurry.

Insert Plan to Buy House Together.

Sometime during the house buying planning (took nearly 2 years) I really started to want to get married. And after we bought said house, I really wanted it really really badly and I whined about it A LOT. Mostly in my journal, but to him a bit too. Long story short, Got engaged last October getting marrried this September.

Why did it become so important to get married? I can only say it was a strong feeling that we knew we wanted to spend the rest of our lives together. We've always been the kind of couple to share in everything (bills, trips, family, etc) and we swore that nothing would change if we got married. And I'm here to tell you that something in our hearts definitley did change. It was subtle at first, but there is definitely a stronger commitment between us since the engagement. A merging of the minds, discussion of bigger topics, a real partnership.

Technically it is just a piece of paper, but I think if it works right and it means something to you, it's really more. Some people can achieve this higher level relationship without getting married, and I thought I could, but I don't know now. I guess, to me, there's something in that public statement of commitment.

And there's nothing like planning a wedding to test a couple's strength!

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

Is marriage just a piece of paper? Okay, my husband and I will celebrate 7 years together tomorrow. 4 of those years we have been married, but we still consider February 26 our BIG anniversary. We celebrate our weddign day, but this is still the BIG one. This one symbolizes the how far we have come. I was 17 when we started dating, and Kevin was 20. Everyone said it would not work because neither of us was known for being able to committ. My parents were against us, or I would have been able to "accept" the proposal he tried to give me when I was 18... we became engaged in each other's hearts... one year later, I got the ring, but I felt no more of less engaged than we were already. So, I guess what I am saying is, yes it is just a piece of paper, but a piece of paper that gives validity to the relationship we have. You have invested 6 years into this partnership... you have been through to good times and the bad times, and of course the ehhh times, too. If you want that piece of paper, then you need to make it clear to him that it is what you want, or re- evaluate what you have to have in your life and make decisions based on that. You deserve to be happy.

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

I love being married. I have no problem with the institution. With the right person, it's the best thing ever.

It is DEFINITELY more than a piece of paper. It changes things mentally. For 2 years I lived with a man, and our families had a terrible time with it. To his family and ex-wife, I was "just the girlfriend". I had no credibility. He was willing to provide for me in his will, leave me the house, money, etc., but he still had 3 kids to think about. There was a definite mindset because I wasn't the *wife*. He wanted to marry me, but I ended up moving out because I knew it wasn't forever.

I ended up marrying a man who changed within 2 days of our wedding. He immediately became very controlling, down to telling me what color to paint my nails (I may have told this story on here before). Long story short, I divorce his crazy butt.

My point is, the mindset is completely different once you get married. That little piece of paper changes your status in your own mind, your spouse's mind, and everyone else's. You no long just "live together". It is a validation of the relationship. You have rights you didn't have before. You feel differently when you say "my husband", than when you say "my boyfriend". You just do.

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

My wife and I are partners. We are friends. We enjoy each other's company. We were together for 5 years before we were married. We have been married for 5 years. Our wedding was the single most loving event I have ever witnessed. I feel closer to her now than ever before, I feel closer to her everyday we are together. And to answer the question, Yes. it is just a piece of paper.

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

Even technically (forget about emotionally), it is *not* just a piece of paper, at least not where I live. In Nova Scotia, Canada (and presumably the rest of the country), common law spouses are not given the same rights as married people. When common law spouses break up, things are divied up based on transactions (who bought it), not on a 50/50 split. Unaware of this, I paid the rent while my ex bought the furniture. I could have been left with nothing, even though my financial contribution wasn't nothing, except that (luckily) he's a darn nice guy, and agreed we should divy things up 50/50, since we'd both been working on that assumption.

Not saying you should get married for solely financial purposes... but you have to take this stuff into account.

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

We have been together for almost 9 years, and we got married last spring mainly because we were buying a house together and there were tax things that required us to be married (we bought his parents house and get to pay the same taxes they didk). We had talked about it over the years and had decided we didn't want to marry, for various reasons: Things were working well. I had always thought the point of marriage was to tell everyone that you are completely sure about this person, and that felt like hubris to me, plus I wasn't 100% sure. I also thought the reason for marriage was to combine your families, which neither of us wanted to do, or to have children - ditto. I didn't want people to start treating us like we had become siamese twins instead of two individuals.

We both had doubts, but went ahead with it and now feel good about it. Our relationship has grown and deepened this year. However, we both think that that was because of going through buying a house together (which was not a smooth process at all, because of his family). We are finding out that some people do treat us differently now: acting like we're only now a serious couple, expecting us to do everything together. We've gotten a lot of flak from various people because neither of us changed our names.

I like to think that every couple can try to make the kind of marriage they want. I think that's true, but there is a lot of pressure to have the kind of marraige people expect.

For some people, yeah, it is just a piece of paper. Green card marriages, Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire, staying married for the insurance or the children, etc. But for nearly everyone I know, it isn't. However, I know many long term couples who are just as committed as married couples. Except for automatic benefits and income tax penalties, it's the same.

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

I have been married for 30 (!) years. I met my husband when I was 17 and he was 20. In *those* days you just got married...so we did. It's truly amazing to me that we've hit 30 years. We've had our moments, but there is something that makes us work at it. I would say that our relationship is better, deeper and more fulfilling now that at any other time. I appreciate so much about the person that he is -- things that I overlooked or undervalued in the early years. We've raised two children to successful adulthood. Having said all that, I don't think I would ever get married again, if anything should happen to my husband. It's a lot of work working out the rhythms of your life - the give and take, the dance, if you will. I'm just not sure I could adapt to a new partner. Hopefully, that won't be necessary. Our anniversary is next week.

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

I don't know if it is or isn't a piece of paper. I think it depends on what expectations you and your partner bring into it.

As an erratically-practicing Catholic, I tend to think of marriage as a sacrament; it's a covenant between you, your spouse and God. In slightly more practical terms: you and your spouse have a level of moral obligation to each other, and that obligation has its roots in your relationship with God. The fiance, who is devoutly Lutheran (Catholic Lite: Less Guilt, Less Kneeling), feels the same way.

In even more practical terms, what it translates to for me and the fiance is this: once we're hitched, we're each other's family. It's a vow, and we mean business.

I realize this isn't an approach that will work for everyone. Since I'm not married yet, I can't tell you how well it will work for me. The way I'm regarding it now - five months from the wedding - is that I have finally found someone whom I want to stick with through everything, in whom I have absolute faith as a person, and I want to make a legal and moral commitment to recognize how special that is.

Forgive me for getting mushy and preachy; I suspect the stress of planning the damn wedding itself is beginning to get to me.

-------------------------------------

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

No Marriage is absolutely NOT JUST a piece of paper. Why bother if that's all it is? Marriage is a committment to one person shouted from the rooftops and it leaves no room for compromise. If Stuart were the sort of person who didn't believe in marriage, as much as I think the sun rises and sets on him, I would have split. I have too much respect for myself and what I believe in and I believe in marriag

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

I've been married for almost a year. Luckily I married my best friend and have no regrets! But getting married was a hassle. The decision to get married was tough. We were already living together. We were planning on moving across the country together and logically marriage came up. We both agreed we didn't need to get married - it would't affect our future plans, but then I wanted to know why we weren't getting married. And marriage became an issue that was impossible to agree on. In my head, I agreed we didn't need to get married. I had said it a hundred times. But when he agreed so readily, I wanted to know why. Why wouldn't he want to marry me? If it wouldn't affect us one way or another, then why was he so quick to jump to one side or the other? Anyways, we married and skipped the whole big wedding thing. We went on vacation, planned everything just as we would want it, and it turned out perfectly! I have absolutely no regrets, and actually not much has changed between us--it's just like it was when we were dating! But I think that's pretty lucky and I hope we date each other for

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

IMHO, marriage is not just a piece of paper, because a marriage is more than just the legal stuff.

You can have a marriage without the legalities thereof. You can have the level of committment, have that change in your mind without ever standing in front of an officiant as long as you _have_ made that committment to each other.

That kind of committment, that depth of relationship is infinitely more important than the legal process. And if you define marriage as that kind of relationship, then yes, it's a whole lot more than a piece of paper.

I've often felt as if the minute that Sabs _asked_ me to marry him, was the actual moment that our marriage started, though technically we're not married from a legal standpoint.

We don't have a marriage license, we do have a joint bank account. We pay all bills jointly -- there is no "my money, your money" it's all "our money" and has been so for years.

This occasionally causes problems when we file taxes -- we take turns "sucking the interest" as Sabs says, on our bank account.

Sabs refers to me as his wife and I refer to him as my husband -- if only because that's a lot easier to say, than to try to explain our actual situation. The committment is there, the love is there, the relationship is there -- the "piece of paper" is all that's missing.

The biggest reason why we _haven't_ gotten married has more to do with _weddings_ than anything else.

Weddings and all of the associated paraphernalia, fluff, nonsense and stress are what I think of as irrelevant.

Lately, we've been talking about quietly going down to the courthouse to get the damn piece of paper already because there's no way in heck that we'll be able to have the _wedding_ that we want without offending our families in some way.

Also, if we have the licence all ready, then we can have a Celebration for something that already exists instead of having to kow tow to all of the traditional forms that neither of us likes/believes in.

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

Colleen summed up my thoughts very well:

We've always been the kind of couple to share in everything (bills, trips, family, etc) and we swore that nothing would change if we got married. And I'm here to tell you that something in our hearts definitley did change. It was subtle at first, but there is definitely a stronger commitment between us since the engagement. A merging of the minds, discussion of bigger topics, a real partnership.

A marriage license is just a piece of paper. A marriage isn't.

A wedding- now that's a whole 'nother matter. We considered just eloping, but we figured there would be a lot of people on both sides of the family who'd kill us if we did that. We were actually the first kids from both sides to marry. So, we had a wedding for our families (and also for me, 'cause I wanted one). But, we planned the wedding on our own terms.

Neither of us wanted a "traditional" wedding, and neither of us is religious. We wanted something that would be short and fun, and we wanted the guests to be more than just an audience, so we got married on Halloween at the Texas Renaissance Festival, in full costume. A fair number of the guests dressed up as well. I think the ceremony took 15 minutes itself, the reception was little over an hour, but most of the guests stayed the rest of the day at the festival. And everyone had a great time.

I have pictures on my desk, and people always stop by to ask. Over a year later, our families and friends still talk about our wedding.

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

I agree with Beth K. A marriage certificate is just a piece of paper. A marriage speaks of a certain mindset, it is an acknowledgement that you view your partner in a certain way. They are two seperate things, and one does not necessarily beget the other.

My brother and his wife have been together for over 10 years. They have 2 kids. They see no reason to get a marriage certificate, because, well, it's just a piece of paper. They know they are committed to each other and do not need a piece of paper to back it up.

On the other hand, if one of the people in a fully committed relationship really wanted that piece of paper, for whatever reason, why would the other one say no?

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

It's weird how my feelings about marriage have shifted in the past year. My boyfriend and I have been together for over five years, and we've lived together for two. I've always felt that I didn't want to get married.I felt kind of like marriage meant you didn't have to try any more in a relationship- now you are legally bound, you can just settle in- because the other person isn't as likely to leave. But this past year I've been seeing a lot of peers and family members get married- and the thinking shifted to "why doesn't he want to get married?" It's very weird. I think I'm starting to buy the whole idea of making the commitment official, in front of freinds and family. We've never had a casual relationship- we've been extremely close from the start, and I want it to be understood by the world in general- that he should be my beneficiary, my emergency person, my closest relative. I voiced my worries, and he was a little overwhelmed at first, but now he is talking enthusiasticly about marriage- and I'm pretty happy about that.

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

I don't think marriage is just a piece of paper either. Barry was quick to propose, but actually setting the wedding date and making plans took him a couple of years. Whenever I would bring it up, he would say "What's the rush? It's just a piece of paper anyway." We were living together, and both fully intended to spend the rest of our lives together. But I got tired of being just the girlfriend -- after three years of living together I wanted to make it as commited and official in everyone else's eyes as it was in ours. (If that makes sense.)

Barry's reluctance was, I think, because his parents got divorced. I think his grandparents are divorced. My paernts are divorced. My brother is divorced. And so on. He kept saying "What if we split up?" And yeah, that's a chance you have to take. But I don't think splitting up after a great deal of time together is any less messy or painful whether you're married or not. The question never gets resolved, really -- we just had to accept that a breakup might happen, but we can't predict the future, and we'll just try our best to avoid breaking up.

And I agree with all the folks who said that getting married changed their relationship for the better -- we're much closer now, and we were best friends before we got married.

-- mary-ellen.diaryland.com

(I messed up the HTML yesterday; I'm scared to try it again!)

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

I'm giving you guys the "quickie" answer because we're having some awful crises (yes, plural) here today...

I do think marriage is more than a piece of paper. I believe, however, that marriage is *also* an affirmation of what you should already have between you. It's a public affirmation and confirmation, really..."this is how we feel about each other, and we're willing to bind ourselves together, both legally and spiritually, in the eyes of God/dess, the law, our family, and our friends."

It's a sea change, getting married. It's weird letting go of the idea that you won't be single anymore; that you will have certain responsibilities to your mate that you didn't necessarily have before. And "my husband" certainly has more weight behind it than "my boyfriend" or "my fiance."

I'm both looking forward to this with all my heart *and* getting a bit nervous about it...it's seven months and counting...

And -- I gotta go. :>

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

The piece of paper is a legal contract. The marriage is something else altogether. You don't need a piece of paper to be "married" to someone emotionally and spiritually. Lots of gay couples have been "married" for decades in every way that counts emotionally and spiritually, for example, and not having a piece of paper from the state does not diminish those commitments in any way, in my opinion.

And lots of couples who have the piece of paper do not really have a committed relationship.

So no, marriage, if you mean the relationship and the commitment, is not a piece of paper or a legal contract.

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. After we were married, my wife and I were all set to take full advantage of the piece of paper we now held in our hot little hands. We could claim this and that, we could take financial advantage of all sorts of services and policies. We would use this "piece of paper" to our advantage by telling every institution we came up against that "Yes,we have a permit for that!" I was all set to show it to my insurance company and get a break on my rates. I had my marchin' shoes on and was going to march right into my employer's office and tell them to add my new wife to the health plan at no extra charge. Well guess what? Not one God damn person, govt office, or corporate suit wanted to see the certificate. I could not give away free copies of that thing. I thought to myself, "self, why does no one want to see proof of my love for my new bride?" I asked my inlaws who have been married for 39 years if they had been required to show proof of their nuptuals to anyone, ever. "Nope", my father in law said, "Never." I asked my grandfather. Certainly HE must have shown it to someone in the past as my grandmother passed away a few years ago. "No, not even the lawyers". He owned property together with her and everything. Hmm...This was getting weird. I did some more digging and finnaly found somebody who needed to show proof she had been married. It turns out that in a diputed divorce, if you don't have proof you were married, you may be outta luck. So what is the moral of this story. That piece of paper is real good to have around in case you get divorced or someone contests the marrige in court. WOW! There is a great reason to get married! Morons. Now, having said that, I loved my wedding! The room was so full of love you could feel it. I had a great time at the ceremony and the honeymoon rocked. If I had to do all over again I would not have changed a thing except the idiot photographer my in laws hired. And that had nothing to do with the piece of paper. It doesn't make a difference unless you die or get divorced. How romantic. The one thing you might ask yourselves is what your relationship means to one another. Do NOT discuss this now! Wait until everyone is reasonably healthy again. Then do what my bride and I did. Write down the pros and cons on a sheet of paper, listing with honesty what you like about the idea and what you do not like. Then, after the fight, wait a few months and ask him/her to marry you anyway. Good luck, I wish you all the best. Jason.

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

I have been with my husband for three years, and I love him to death. However, I really honestly do not believe in marraige because I am not religous nor do I feel I have to prove anything legally. We did get married in July because I'm English, and he's american and for us to live together in the same country, we had to. I would live with him for the rest of my life and vice versa without the legalities of it. I also don't believe in spending huge amounts on weddings because that's all "show," in my opinion. I hate how if you're with someone for 17 years, you're not taken seriously, but if you marry someone you knew for 2 months, all of a sudden society see's you as "better" or "committed" or whatever. Commitment should be there as well as love and respect. A peice of paper doesn't give you that and I hate how so many women think it does. Or how they think they're failures if they're not married or how a ring should make that much difference.

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

The piece of paper is good for all kinds of legal stuff, like the stuff Beth is upset about (and I don't blame her for being upset, believe me).

The thing is, if both partners in a legal marriage work for $$$, they will pay dearly for the privilege of being married on their tax return.

I know, because I pay thousands of dollars extra every year that I wouldn't have to pay if I was just "living in sin." So there's a downside to everything. Yes, I'm glad my husband is my legal next of kin (though it would be OK if it was my daughter instead), but I am not glad about how much it costs me in taxes every year just to be legally married.

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

What the hell?! Is it in the air or what?

I have this nasty habit of asking my boyfriend life altering decision making questions while he's sleeping.

"Do you really love me?" "Do you really think that you want to stay with me forever?" "When are we going to get married?"

Sure, it's unfair, but it's like asking someone in a hypnotic trance these questions. You're likely to get the truth. I think. So every answer made in hesitation, I freak out about. "How come you waited 5.6 seconds to say yes about staying with me forever? Bastard!" Then he mumbles something about copying machines and horses.

I asked those questions last night. He hesitated. I sulked. I proceeded to make plans on how I would spend the rest of my life alone with a cupboard full of different herbal teas. Sigh.

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

Is marriage just a piece of paper? That is a really good question.

My answer would have to be: it is if you let it. I'm married now four wonderful years, I love my husband and I took a longtime before I said yes to him. It has been the right thing for me and for my him, it's the ultimate commitment. I wake up every morning, roll over and my best friend and greatest love is snoozing there next to me. I know that every morning I'm going to wake up and he'll be there (that may be good to some people and bad to others, haha). I think our country doesn't take marriage seriously, we have a ridiculously high divorce rate and that "Millionaire" show was very sad. Take your time Cathy, make your choice carefully, but do it if you feel it's right for you!

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

Unlike Alex, I not only had to show our marriage certificate to various authorities, I had to make copies to give to some of them. I guess it's different when you've done a name change. I had to show the social security office, the bank, the DMV. I had to fax a copy to Network Solutions so they'd update my NIC handle and contact records. And my other bank (out of town savings) has asked for a faxed copy.

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

Is it just a piece of paper? Well, yes and no. I don't think it's the piece of paper that's important really. So much as the choice/decision/commitment. Chris and I got married last November, after 5 years together. People keep asking us how married life is, and we both keep answering (truthfully) - well, not that much difference to unmarried life.

BUT, and it's a big but, I think that is because we were a) living together for most of the preceding 5 years and more importantly b) engaged for nearly 2 years.

That turned out to be great, because it gave us nearly two years to get used to the idea of lifetime commitment, and at the start of January last year we also combined out earnings, so that we started budgeting together and not having either one of us better off because we happened to earn more. That was an important step, because it meant that, like someone else said, we really started planning life together.

However, If you are opposed to the institution or marriage/state involvement on some real ethical grounds, then I don't think the peice of paper itself is necessary. Our public annuncement of our decision/commitment was the important thing for us, and the time spent coming up with wedding vows and seeing what we were really about was also valuable.

The main thing was, that in deciding to get married, we were both agreeing to a certain commitment that we both understood, and therefore we knew where we stood in life. I don't think that has to involve a piece of paper or agonising over vows (which you can find here if you like)(also, this is only a small part of all my thoughts, which I wrote in this journal entry, but which seemed altogether too much to add to a forum discussion).

-- Anonymous, February 26, 2000