z

-- CJS (cjs@noemail.com), February 18, 2000

Answers

Damn CJS, you and I are in agreement 2 times in 2 days? What's going on here, a polly and a doomer getting along??? <;)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), February 18, 2000.

Stranger things have happened, Sysman.

BTW, I agree with you both.

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.com), February 18, 2000.

Totally agree with you CJS. It is one thing to debate and oppose issues and quite another to attack the board in general. Non-stop screaming will never win an argument and besides there may be some legal issues as well. Makes you wonder why the sysops even care anymore.thanks for your stellar efforts.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), February 18, 2000.

My Dear Mr. Ra,

Sir I am shocked! I find myself in agreement with your words! If that can happen, anything is possiblr. Even the Lamb lying down with the Jack...er I mean lion. I do hope that some one can prevail upon this woman to ceae and desist (call the law some one!!!!!!!!)

"As for me I sahll finish the Game"! After a hopefully brief recess

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Shakey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-- Shakey (in_a_bunker@forty.feet), February 18, 2000.

i think she needs the men with the little tight white coats

-- looking (for@commitment.laura?), February 18, 2000.

A stalker. Pure and simple.

-- Liz (lizpavek@hotmail.com), February 19, 2000.

About Trolls and Flamers When I sent a complain to mindspring yesterday, in their automated reply they suggested an article about trolls and flamers. I think it is very well written and in my experience it speaks the truth and common sense.

It would be worth copying this article and reposting it at intervals.

Chris

*****************

"As someone in another newsgroup said, it's troll season.

For what it's worth......

We have two people here (at the moment, anyway) who have certain basic troll characteristics:

They are unable or unwilling to take responsibility for their words or behavior.

They are unable or unwilling to consider the possibility that they have brought a great deal of dislike upon themselves.

I don't know for certain, but my feeling is that each of them is filled with self-hate, and is unable to face that issue.

OK.

I've dealt with self-haters before, and this is what you can expect:

The only thing they can do with their venom is to flush it out on other people. As a result, everything they say about you is a reflection of their feelings about themselves.

Because of their self-hate, there is nothing that you can say that is as bad as what they see in themselves. You can't hurt them, no matter how hard you try.

The only thing that relieves their self-hate is to see other people in pain. If you let them get to you, that only encourages them. That's why they're here in the first place.

The point is that flaming them hurts you more than it hurts them.

What makes it worse--been here, seen this before, too--is that these trolls are insiders. Yes, they hurt, they're depressed, they are at least as far down as any of us. What that means is that they know all the right buttons to push to make us angry. They have no conscience that prevents them from pushing those buttons.

That is the difference between them and us. They have turned abusive. Yes, that does make a difference. I've encountered some recovering abusers on the net, and I learned a few things from that experience. The one thing that sustains an abuser is denial; an abuser cannot allow hirself to be open to the slightest possibility that sie is harming another human being. They blame anyone and anything else in sight, but virtually all of that blame is directed at the victim, in one way or another. Abusers REFUSE to take responsibility for their behavior.

In dealing with an abuser, particularly from a treatment perspective, the first and most important step is to break that denial. It is not only breaking the denial about hurting other people. It is essential to break the denial that they are not responsible for their behavior. They must learn that they have to take responsibility for everything that they do, and it is a hard lesson to teach.

Until an abuser's denial is broken, it is dangerous to give them any sympathy. Sympathy gives them a way out, a way to avoid taking responsibility. Someone else made them the way they are; they're not responsible. This is utter garbage, and to give them this opening is truly a disservice.

So.

They are here to feed on our pain. We don't have to give them that satisfaction.

They stay only as long as we feed them well. If we want them to go, all we have to do is to stop feeding them.

The solution for trolls is in two parts. First, recognize and understand that they are here to hurt us. They way that they hurt us is to beat on us with their own rage. Recognize that everything they say about us is a reflection of their own self-hate. Even when they hit our triggers, it is their rage, their self-hatred that they are giving us. We don't have to let ourselves be hurt by the fact that they hate themselves. We don't have to accept that. We can let them drown in their self-hate, simply by ignoring them.

And that is the second part. If you want a troll to go away, ignore hir. When no one responds to them, they are left with their own venom. That is the last thing that a troll wants to have to deal with.

Let us build an ASD zoo. Let us build cages, and put the appropriate names on those cages. Then let us put a sign in front of those cages:

DO NOT FEED THE ANIMALS.

Then, most importantly, let us not feed the animals. Killfile or ignore them, but do not respond to them, and do not accept their pain as your own.

In a more practical manner, John Timothy brings it all down to five simple rules:

(1) Don't read posts from or about abusers;

(2) Don't read email from or about abusers;

(3) If you can't resist reading, don't respond;

(4) If you can't resist responding, do so by email--not by posting here;

(5) If you are compelled to post a response, if you just can't stop yourself, at least do the rest of us the favor of adding the abuser's name to the subject line, so we can avoid reading that post. Thanks. "

-- Chris (#@$%!@pond.com), February 19, 2000.

Chris:

LOL. I'm sorry to be laughing, but all of what you said can be applied to folks with teenagers as well. They can only push our buttons if we LET THEM!

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.com), February 19, 2000.

Very true Anita. Teenagers are button pushers par excellence. I've got 3 and I'm becoming an expert at keeping my own buttons under lock and key ;-)

Sadly though, there are many adults who haven't reached thier age level maturity, and although for a teenager it is normal to push parent's and other authority figures' buttons (it's called the "separation issue"), it is pathological in adult years.

-- Chris (@#$%!@pond.com), February 19, 2000.

Same here on the three, Chris, although the oldest will turn 21 at the end of next month. I thought it was the changing hormones, but separation issues sound fine also. Either way, when I saw the logic replaced by emotion, I put on my poker-face, shut my mouth, and just listened.

All three have pretty much grown out of the button-pushing stage now. It was a great experience for internet conversations, however. [grin]

I wonder if we could conjure up Donna of the Sheets and get together to discuss this phenomenon some time. As a programmer, I'm interested in learning why some never outgrew this need for attention, and I could learn from a nurse and teen counselor.

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), February 19, 2000.