Death By A Thousand Cuts

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I am growing weary of the smugness of some of the posters on this forum. As the stock market tanks and oil prices go out of sight, what do these people think the outcome will be? Is everyone so blind that they can't see whats happening around them? As one of the Hanford downwinders ( thats right folks they really did release radioactive iodine into the atmosphere to measure it's affect on the general populace in the 50's and early 60's) and a Vietnam Vet I find it very difficult to swallow anything the government puts out. If they say it's the Saudi's fault alone I would not believe a word of it.

-- David Whitelaw (Dande53484@aol.com), February 17, 2000

Answers

Mr Whitelaw:

The stock market will always be cyclical. I do not know what you mean by "tank" but it is unlikely it will correct more than 30% or so over the next year, and this will not wipe out the gains of those of us who, unfazed by Y2K panic-mongering, have remained fully invested.

Oil prices are rising to ten-year highs,, but they are also cyclical, and the outcome will be some inflationary pressure, but not economic crisis. As cold weather is replaced by warm, and demand meets rising prices, this too, shall pass. I haven't seen anything approaching the '70's, a period within my own memory.

We live in a world freer of disease, war, famine, unemployment and financial lack than any people anywhere anytime in the history of the world. Our maldistribution of wealth is caused by the incredible wealth of the upper brackets, and not by widespread poverty at the lower end. No other society, EVER, has had it as good as we do, and our poorest class are in measurable ways more wealthy than kings of old.

Hard times may come. They are not here, and they are not foreshadowed by current events. Those who post here with your attitude sound like whining children, oblivious to their privileged place in history. We are the most coddled, most protected, most monied, most healthy, longest-lived, least endangered people in the history of the world.

Pray for doom, if you will, so that you can gloat last. But in the interim, be grateful for what you have been given and learn to appreciate it instead of whining and waiting for doom to fall. Stop worrying about the government; if you don't like them, change your piece of it. You live in the most self-governed, most well-armed citizenry ever. You live in the most open political system there ever was, including our own government in the 50's and 60's, and unlike you, your children are not about to be carted off for a stupid war.

Ask yourself this: Isn't the best life the one that PREPARES for the potentially bad, enjoys the gifts of the present, and wakes up each day with an optimism and joy that starts every morning with a song? I'm not against preparation; I understand bad times may come. But they aren't here yet. There isn't a conspiracy to destroy peace, freedom, and happiness. We aren't being sprayed by some unknown force for sinister motives. We aren't going to freeze, we aren't on our way to the poorhouse, and we are not powerless.

Keep your eyes open, and your mind clear. Read some history books, and reflect on your own past. Consider living during polio, smallpox, or VietNam. Put the present in perspective. Then go out and enjoy life. You have twice as much of it to look forward to as you did a hundred years ago.

Regards,

-- ImSo (lame@prepped.com), February 17, 2000.


Imso@sh!tForBrains

You're right Imso, because David is a native american whose people were systematicly slaughtered over the 1800's. So yes, you are right he has alot more 'life' to look forward to than say his dead ancestors. People like you, sir, deserve to live with yourselves. A fitting punishment.

As for your BS about markets, time for you to review some of said history. Your ignorance is showing in a major way. BUt then again you are entitled to your opinion.

Live your day dream if you will. Your arrogance is showing in a most unbecoming way.

-- ..- (dit@dot.dash), February 17, 2000.


Hello David,

I've followed some of your postings here on Time Bomb 2000, and have a few comments to offer.

The smug factor here is puny compared to comp.software.year-2000. There, they have smug down to an art, it used to be an interesting news group, now, a few posters have gleefully gained control of the board. Here at TB200, at least the news is still coming in, and some meaningful dialog may develop. At csy2k any new suggestion of difficulties brought on by IT failures are either ignored, or catcalled into oblivion. This has produced the desired effect of stifling the free flow of information.

Yes, it's happend quite a bit here too, but despite the ridicule, it's still an interesting board. Better yet, the board remains alive with all kinds of topics, leaving us the opportunity to connect the dots. ...---...---

Sadly, I share some of your cynicism as well as your comments, "are people so blind?" However, the fault may not fall on our collective myopia, more than likely, it's a sense of apathy brought on by not knowing what to believe anymore.

Another notion is the fear of embarrasment or recrimination outweighs the motivation to speak up. I think fear itself is the primary reason for the lack of the free flow of information to the populace.

In the past, I've not posted something I thought was relevant to the dialog, due to the concerns outlined above. I'd actually taken a great deal of time to write edit and format a post, just to end up filing it away.

Here's an example, this was a reponse to a similar post to yours, from Don Shimoda:

Shimoda, et all:

We're here all together, scratching our collective noggin's eh?

Well, do you think it's possible, the same bit of bafflement, we'd begot on the rollover, would just end? Pop, suddenly the truth would shine through the fog of obfuscation, and - we'd be pleased by the light?

Humph - Don't think it likely.

Try not to be disturbed while a favorite media outlet is failing to inform per se, it's our perception that might be flawed. It may be that we perceive the government, the corporations, and the media, are there to serve us, the reality may be the opposite. Or perhaps, we are being responsively served, bit by bit. That's an unpleasant thought.

:-)

The problem with diesel, kerosene, is an northeastern problem. Period. Just a "few" people suffering, a somewhat minor hardship. A local problem. For now anyway.

Further, it's all brought on by OPEC, and the oil companies - that's an acceptable notion.

Why - if we were told there was some sort of problem with refineries, and related such, all blaring out of the tube, and the media went Monica - we'd have a "real" crisis on our hands. Lines, shortages, rationing, and panic.

That would not be good, this will not do.

(-:

Big brother, and Uncle Whiskers, have decided they know what's best for the rest of US.

A confident public is what will get us through these hitches, glitches and bumps. Or, we, .com & .gov, may just have to swallow hard and ... take our lumps.

There can only be the slow release of half truths. Over a longer period -- truth surfaces, the public can take it better over time. Negative impact on the level of confidence may be minimized.

So, what'll it be then? How about a slow info-release, informing us there might be some gasoline issues come spring. Who knows, maybe it'll all be fine by then. Then again, maybe not.

Meanwhile relax, and try to filter out the doubts, recognize the distortion of truth and noise, for what it is, fear.

My favorite quote from the handbook, something like: "Let's not argue for our limitations, we just might get them." :-)

-end-

This all said to bring forth the notion - things @TB2000 are, not so bad at all. And, that your feelings of weariness are not uncommon, take heart, you're not alone.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, it prompted me to share mine.

Lastly, was the Hanford release(s) Iodine, or, Plutonium, or both? ;-)

Best Regards,

-- Tom McDowell (bullriver@montana.com), February 17, 2000.


To the post re Mr Whitelaw being a native American:

You cannot change the past, and neither can I. I am responsible for what I do, and so are you.

-- ImSo (lame@prepped.com), February 17, 2000.


The Lame One commented:

"Hard times may come. They are not here, and they are not foreshadowed by current events. "

This sounds like the same old song and dance they were playing in 1929, the only difference between then and now is about 100 Trillion in Derivatives.

Lame One, you might want to go back and review the oil price chart from 1948 to 1998 that I posted the other day, might help to shed some light for you, then again probably not.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), February 17, 2000.



Thoughtful and stimulating from all above including you, ImSo.

We all should be thankful that the disruptions that we are seeing have not cascaded into larger systemic failures, whether the disruptions being reported here and elsewhere are Y2K related or not.

Given the volume of incidents, I believe that some are Y2K related. I am disappointed that the truth may never be known. As we muddle through, our robust economy has deteriorated but not yet to the point where any event has focused the attention of the masses.

There are significant hurdles looming ahead:

Bill Richardson's comments about deregulation of the electric power industry that may affect power availability during this summers peak demand.

Market responses to the massive infusion of pre-Y2K and post-rollover cash. Greenspan all but assured more "significant interest rate hikes" soon.

US Navy says their pre-Y2k testing encountered more failures on 02/29/00 than on 01/01/00.

The Russians/Chinese/Iraqis/North Koreans and their allies are rearming at the rate of a new missile arms race. Maybe not Y2K related, but global oil shortages could spark economic action that leads to confrontation.

I see the world today as a tight rope walker on a high wire and the wire getting progressively thinner as he wals toward the opposite side. Will he (we) make it without falling and if he (we) fall is the safety net sufficient to avoid serious injury?

Watch and see. Stay prepped and rotate stock.

-- Bill P (porterwn@one.net), February 17, 2000.


Very intereting thread with some good points made here.

-- Dee (T1Colt556@aol.com), February 17, 2000.

Ray and Dit

Let us visit the topic of my ignorance again in six months and six years--if not on this forum, then with our individual satisfaction at those points.

-- Jim Thompson (jimthompsonmd@attglobal.net), February 17, 2000.


Jim, GOOD point!!

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), February 17, 2000.


Tom the Hanford Nuclear Reservation released iodine 131 from December 26,1944 through December 31, 1957.My personal dose has been estimated at 2,100 millirad.

-- David Whitelaw (Dande53484@aol.com), February 17, 2000.


Imso:

Pray for doom, if you will, so that you can gloat last. But in the interim, be grateful for what you have been given and learn to appreciate it instead of whining and waiting for doom to fall. Stop worrying about the government; if you don't like them, change your piece of it. You live in the most self-governed, most well-armed citizenry ever. You live in the most open political system there ever was, including our own government in the 50's and 60's, and unlike you, your children are not about to be carted off for a stupid war.

I don't know if you can convert anyone who's left here. I still think it's worth the try, though, 'cause there's some good people still kicking through this forum... good job on the above. There's me, and a lot of new & old 'lurkers', who should be considered the new "GI's" - who can smell rotten logic.

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), February 17, 2000.


ImSo, I found your post very touching and it hits right at home. There's alot of truth to what you say and a lot of people can't admit it, can't see it, and will always debate in a way that makes it look worse than it is but there's not one of them if given a choice would leave this country for somewhere better because it don't exist! Im proud to be a Native American German who was born in this country and I am proud to be able to call everyone who was born here a Native Amercian. I live close to many Native American Indians and not to far from Hanford where David Whitelaw lives and I no how he feels about the health hazard because both my parents died of cancer. But I totally disagree with the rude and totally out of line post by dit@dot.dash about the injustices toward David's ancestors. He never even made reference to past history. An apology is in order for ImSo at the very least!

-- John Thomas (cjseed@webtv.net), February 17, 2000.

don't should be doesn't and no should be know and I apologize for the spelling errors. I get a keyboard delay with Webtv but that doesn't excuse these errors.

-- John Thomas (cjseed@webtv.net), February 17, 2000.

David, Key words: Viet Nam Vet: My father:Mia Korea, 1952.My stepfather, Viet Nam "advisor", 1958. My first husband and father of my children:Viet Nam 1970-3.My present husband: Viet Nam, 1973.Gulf War: my son,1999, Bosnia, my son, 1999. AO syndrome infant death:1986. AO syndrome,first husband, 1986 (at retirement). I learned never, ever to take anything at face value. Everyone in government has a face, a name. Individuals make decisions. Individuals are accountable. If the younger ones who participate here believe they are immune from this sort of depradation, whether economic or physical, they are quite wrong. There is no "government" as an abstract entity, there is only a small group of people who act behind a mask of anonymity, not always in the interest of the people who enable them.

-- charlie (cml@workmail.com), February 17, 2000.

David

Heres a good article why things aren't so peachy keen.

LINK: www.fi9.com/guncontrol/gc_naziliberals.html

Are Liberals Nazi's?

If the shoe fits...

Liberals - History Repeats Itself

T. S. Eliot wrote that "the historical sense involves a perception, not only of the pastness of the past, but of its presence" (The Sacred Wood, 1920). We all recognize that history repeats itself, yet we fail to study history well enough to draw the necessary analogies in our everyday lives. Take the rise of Liberalism in the United States for example. It started with the temporary measures introduced by Franklin Delano Roosevelt to help pull Americans out of the Great Depression. Liberals quickly perverted these temporary measures into permanent programs, and then added their own agenda to the effort. The situation has continued unabated for so long, that it is now possible to draw the following parallels between Liberals in America and one of the most terrible political systems the earth has ever seen:

Nazi's were Socialists.

Liberals in America can't wait to implement the latest Socialist idea.

Nazi's used the education system to indoctrinate the young.

Liberals in America use our once-objective institutions of higher learning to force-feed Socialist and Communist ideas to a largely unwilling audience.

Nazi's used propaganda and the media to obtain and retain power.

89% of Journalists in America admit that they prefer to vote for Liberals.

Nazi's over-regulated businesses until they simply took them over.

Liberals in America have suffocated large and small businesses alike under a mountain of regulations and lawsuits.

Nazi's utilized slave labor in most facets of their economy.

Liberals in America have established and maintained a dependant poverty class.

Nazi's used abortion whenever it suited their desires.

Liberals in America insist upon abortion on demand, at any time and for any reason.

Nazi's persecuted everyone who disagreed with them. Liberals in America cannot debate issues logically, so they persecute those who disagree with them.

Nazi's strove to set up a state religion, and jailed religious leaders who would not comply.

Liberals in America ridicule and expunge to the best of their ability all things religious, yet speak from the pulpit in churches where compliant ministers submit to their morally vacant ideas.

Nazi's replaced the Bible with Mein Kampf.

Liberals in America took Bibles out of the classroom long ago - about the same time that drug use, teen pregnancies, violent crime and sexually transmitted diseases started to skyrocket - and SAT scores plummeted.

Nazi's killed 6 million people in concentration camps.

Liberals in America are responsible for 38 million deaths since Roe v. Wade. At the same time, they have allowed 38 million immigrants to enter the United States.

Nazi's wanted to exterminate all of the Jews.

Liberals in America who speak of Yasser Arafat as Israel's "partner in peace" know that Mr. Arafat has a map of Palestine in his office with Israel's borders erased.

Nazi's did not care that many of the Jews they wanted to exterminate were also German citizens.

Liberals in America drove tanks over our roads and killed our men, women and children in Waco, Texas.

Nazi's confiscated all private property that they could lay their hands on.

Liberals in America confiscate huge parcels of land every year under the guise of environmental necessity, and have limited the uses of private property for the same reason.

Nazi's required all young people to "volunteer" in the Hitler Youth.

Liberals in America have established AmeriCorps, where "volunteers" are paid; they also require school children to perform "volunteer" work before they can receive their diploma.

Nazi's tolerated homosexuals and other sexual deviants who swore allegiance to Hitler.

Liberals in America tolerate every morally bankrupt sexual persuasion on the face of the earth - as long as they vote for Liberals.

Nazi's obeyed every order from Hitler, believing he could never be wrong.

Liberals in America do not believe in the concept of right and wrong - only what "feels" good to each person.

Nazi's practiced such outrageous deficit spending that it took a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread at the end of the war.

Liberals in America have spent $6 trillion on unconstitutional social programs since FDR - and America just happens to be $6 trillion in debt. Nazi's would often beat up and expel party members who disagreed with the leadership.

Liberals have virtually taken over one political party in America by demoting, persecuting and alienating all but the most Liberal members.

Nazi's erected a huge and cumbersome national health care system.

Liberals in America have repeatedly proposed national health care bureaucracies with organization charts that look like the schematic diagram for an Intel computer chip.

Nazi's kept records on everyone.

Liberals in America have illegally kept over a thousand FBI files - and hundreds of thousands of other records - on private citizens.

Nazi's would re-write any law to suit their smallest whim.

Liberals in America, particularly Liberal judges, change the U.S. Constitution at will by "finding penumbras", and ignore those who insist that such changes require an amendment.

Nazi's set national educational standards to ensure that everyone absorbed the requisite amount of propaganda.

Liberals in America fight home schooling with a vengeance and continue to push for national education standards.

Nazi's confiscated all guns in Germany under the guise of protecting the citizenry.

Liberals in America are using the Nazi model to implement gun control in the United States.

Nazi's referred to their political philosophy as The New Order.

Liberals in America refer to their political philosophy as The New World Order.

Nazi's thought that the Third Reich would last for a thousand years.

Liberals in America think that Socialism will rule the world forever, even though it has failed each and every time it has been tried.

If we are aware enough of history, we can limit the repetition of history to the desirable aspects. To determine where we are in a historic sense, consider the words of Lord Thomas B. Macaulay, in a May 23, 1857 letter to an American friend:

A democracy cannot survive as a permanent form of government. It can last only until its citizens discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority (who vote) will vote for the Candidates promising the greatest benefits from the public purse, with the result that a democracy will always collapse from loose fiscal policies, always followed by a dictatorship.

The average age of the world's greatest democratic nations has been 200 years. Each has been through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith.

From faith to great courage.

From courage to liberty.

From liberty to abundance.

From abundance to complacency.

From complacency to selfishness.

From selfishness to apathy.

From apathy to dependency.

And from dependency back again into bondage.

Can we escape this fate?



-- patriot (taxslave@webtv.net), February 17, 2000.



Tank is actually an understatement if you will only consider how far out of whack the markets really are.

The markets are trading at the most rediculous P/E ratios at a time in history where long term groth is impossible.

take a pecil and draw a steep line representing the efficiency (productivity) over the last 25 years,

now draw a line from the same point whith a much shallower slope, this represents actual wage increases in the population.

now shade in the middle portion,

Historically productivity and real wages have always eventually reconverged when for a time they went out of line with each other.

Now go back to the shaded area of the little drawing we just did, this is the gap that historically has always converged.

This time there is a difference and its called DEBT. we have fueled this huge wage and productivity disparity with debt. Guess what...It can not continue forever.

-- Dan Evans (danny.evans@sympatico.ca), February 18, 2000.


Patriot....the simple answere in NO!!!

-- canthappen (n@ysayer.com), February 18, 2000.

One more time....Patriot, the simple answer is NO!!! Hair trigger finger. Please, forgive.

-- canthappen (n@ysayer.com), February 18, 2000.

Ah, Dan, you're chanting my favorite rant, P/E ratios. However, some of the so-called "experts" disagree, saying the old rules no longer apply.

Some people think diss P/E ratios...but when I took a couple of finance classes in college, they really emphasized the importance of P/E ratios when it comes to analyzing companies. Think many of these startups will ever pay dividends? Guess time will tell. A pertinent thread:

OT-Would you Invest In This Mutual Fund Company After Reading Their Disclosure?
http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch- msg.tcl?msg_id=002V5O

-- Tim (pixmo@pixelquest.com), February 18, 2000.


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