A question about your thoughts please, on life after death. My ex-husbands father died today. I was still close to his family, my son adored his grandfather and loved going over to their house to watch the Giants or Yankees play during the season. I was with them today at the waiting room at the hospital when he died. I had the sensation that he was present with us right when he died. I felt cold air...movement...a sense of something. I didn't want to say anything to the family, but I think this was him.

Outside of religious beliefs...there seems to be some scientific data to suggest we continue on after death. People who have had Near Death Experiences describe the same thing. Ashton and Leska once said they could sense the presence of those who have "moved on". Have any of the rest of you had this experience? What happens to our life force on a scientific level? We are energy, and you can't destroy energy, right? I'd like to hear your opinions on the subject. Religious and scientific are welcome. Thanks.

-- kritter (kritter@adelphia.net), February 11, 2000

Answers

Kritter,

While I cannot offer any scientific proof that there is life after death, I can offer my own experiences. I have had several close family members and friends die during my lifetime. Not with all, but a few, I have "felt" them just after their passing much as you.

I do have one special relative that I honestly believe looks over me to this day. At times, I can feel her, and yes, smell her. Within a couple of days of these experiences, she appears to me in my dreams. I take great comfort in knowing that this great lady still watches over me. It is strange, but at times I can smell the cookies that we used to bake together. (No, she wasn't my mother, but my grandmother) You are not alone in your feelings, please be sure of that. Take your own comfort in knowing that they cared enough to come back to you to visit, if only for the moment.

Just to let you know, my moments usually start with a feeling of cold air moving across the nape of my neck. It can happen when it is 110 outside and no air movement whatsoever.

-- (they@are.there), February 11, 2000.

kritter,

I have no strong opinions on life after death, although I am interested, and will be checking this thread.

The main reason I write is to express to you my sorrow for the loss to you and your son.

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), February 11, 2000.

I believe that our souls live on after transition as well as reincarnating into newborn babies after a period of rest in the cosmic (heaven). I had a profound experience when I was in my early 20's under the dentist anesthesia where I was talking with people from the other side and I remembered that this the "real" reality is the one you are in after death. I also have some memories of past lives. Also, my mom (who doesn't believe in any of this) saw my father (about 8 years after his death) as real as could be standing by her bed looking at her. As a Registered Nurse I have also heard many stories from patients (such as near death experiences and seeing family who have passed on. I've also had vivid dreams of my dad and a few other people who have passed on where I am talking with them, realizing I am not really dreaming butI'm really with them. I've sensed people who have passed on but never actually seen one myself. Can't verify any of this but to me it makes sense that the purpose for lives on this earthplane are for soul development. Just my humble views for what it is worth.

-- Debi (LongTimeLurker@shy.com), February 11, 2000.

As a RN I worked for hospics and of course hospitals for years. During that time death was common and without any doubt at all, I felt the release of what could only be called a soul from diseased and fractured bodies. Many times I thought I saw/felt the newly released soul as a starry entity of self lumenious gases. I also felt relief and gratitude coming from these entities. With the death of my father, that night I thought I was awoken and there at the end of the bed stood 'Dad" looking solid healthy and suprisingly young. His message was for me to look after my step mother (whom I abhored at the time) and the family affairs. It was a vivid dream of course, but for all that, to me, it was him. Belief in the passing of the soul allows some type of communication. Disbelief acts as a barrier. The materialist view of things is true for him, the world is without spirit. For those who are open minded and gentle in their thoughts, the world of spirit can disclose itself. It is we, as egos, who determine the content of our experiences. D/

-- D. E. Park (dpark@magick.net), February 11, 2000.

Kritter, I offer my condolences on your loss. May you also rejoice in the thought that a loved soul has continued its eternal journey.

Many cultures believe that souls are unique, they never truly die, and that this earthly life is but a brief stopover in this sphere of reality. I've no facts to offer to substantiate this, or any other belief, so I'll just leave you this to ponder:

Who, or what, created matter and energy and thought and time and space? Are we ourselves not a part of that? If I remember my grandmother, isn't she, in a sense, still alive to me?

Blessings to you...

-- Craig (sofpj@netscape.net), February 11, 2000.

We are all 3 part beings, physical{body} or "earth suit" if you will, soul {psyche,emotions et al}, and spirit which is the component that lives for eternity. To answer the question about what will we live in, that would be a new incorruptable body, no disease or death as this is eternal. We are at present mortal and corporeal. The only choice left for eternity is where we will choose to live.There are only 2 choices or places, Heaven or hell. Yes they are both as real as the earth we are now on.

-- rowland morgan (morgan@home.com), February 11, 2000.

Dear Kritter, I am sending kind condolences at the passing of your ex-father in law. Please accept my sympathy at this loss for you.

There was a scientific study that was done around the turn of the century (not this time) but around the 1900s where persons who were on their deathbeds were kept on a scale, and someone watching the scale read the loss of a quarter ounce or something like that at the moment of death.

I agree with a previous writer and also think that it is this life that is illusion, and it is eternal life that is reality. This life is an opportunity for personal growth and we can choose to do that, or to do evil, or whatever we want. I also believe that what we choose, individually and collectively affects whether our lives here on this planet reflect heaven or hell. We can make whatever we wish.

I also think that heaven and hell are simply places where groups of like minded people go to be together with their own kind. You know, it's so comforting to be with people who are as similar to yourself as possible. I have heard that we are not judged by other people, but by ourselves.

I have also heard of heaven and hell described as the same place, different dimension. It is a quite large banquet room, the table is long and splendidly set, much beautiful food is on the table, all you want of whatever you want. The only thing that would look strange to us is the length of the untensils. All the forks and spoons are very very long. In heaven and hell, both people are initially puzzled about these strange untensils, but in heaven, people quickly figure out that they are long so that they may easily feed each other across the table. In hell, the selfish and mean people struggle and struggle to feed themselves with the untensils but never figure out their proper use, and are eternally frustrated and angry that they are not able to eat this lovely food.

You might be interested in reading "The Presence of Other Worlds " by Van Dusen and also "Heaven and Hell" by Swedenborg. Swedenborg was a very very interesting person, he claims that he would go into deep meditation, and then angels would give him tours of heaven and hell. It's some really incredible reading, I strongly suggest it!

I just love this list. Don't you?

-- (formerly@nowhere.zzz), February 11, 2000.

Kritter

My son Danny was born horribly brain damaged. He looked normal, but lived his 17 years with us at about a 1 month brain level. He was blind, and couldnt communicate other than baby sounds. However, he laughed beautifully.......joyously. He died a week before Christmas 4 years ago. Several days later, on a beautiful windy, snowy day as I was walking into my garage, I clearly heard him whisper "dad" in the wind behind me. It turned me right around. Thats the gospel truth. I believe Jesus Christ is the son of God, but practice my faith, shall we say, not well. I hope this helps.

-- JB (noway@jose.com), February 11, 2000.

kritter- I am so sorry to hear of your loss and your sons`. I too am a believer of the eternal life. Fifteen years ago my step-father [who gave me a wonderful childhood and so much love] passed on. He has been with me everyday! At just the right moment I hear him in my minds ear saying all the wonderful `one liners` he had about life! It has been a wonderful knowing for me and i never felt the greiving you usually feel after losi a loved one, because he is still always with me. Still my best friend!

-- mutter (murmur@ya.com), February 11, 2000.

Kritter ... Sorry about the loss . To answer the scientific portion of your question and add a little from research/deep thinking as a former science teacher .....

First of all, there have been several studies done where cammeras were set up to take pictures of people known to have very little time to live . These pictures , taken every minute or so , show a form rising above the body shortly after death , which floats up to the ceiling and hangs there from 20 to 30 minutes before dissapating . People in the room saw nothing , but the cammera doesn't miss this . Also , people who have been declared leaglly dead by doctors , have reported the same effect ; i.e. floating up to the ceiling , from where they could view all of the activity in the room below , even actual conversations between doctors and nurses working to revive them ( which of course,they did ).

My personal opinion the soul is composed anti-matter , proven in the lab to exist as such . However, matter and anti-matter have also been shown to destroy each other when they come into contact. How the two are seperated in the body , only God knows ( NO pun intended Lord ), but , like we can store electricity on a capacitor by insulating same from it's surroundings , the soul may also be insulated from the matter making up our body and released upon death . As you may know from Rutherfords experiments with matter , we are 99.9% holes and .1% matter , so it is actually hard to hit matter with x-rays , as noted by only the bones showing any " great " density of matter.

It has been postulated by others in the science field , that both heaven and earth exist here in the same space , where matter and anti-matter pass through each other with chances of collisions nil and , for our part , we are unable to see them . The other half I don't know , YET ! Just a little food for thought . Eagle

-- Hal Walker (e999eagle@FREEWWWEB.COM), February 11, 2000.

I am sorry to hear of your loss, kritter. May your memories of him be a joy and a comfort to you. How is your son handling the death?

In my religious tradition we do believe that the spirit is immortal, and that our life on earth is one of many facets of who we really are. At death we return to wherever we were before we were conceived for a fallow time, and if we need to learn more we come back again. I don't know if you caught that interesting thread a few weeks ago, but it brought up our existence on earth as being the three-dimensional shadow of what we might be in four dimensions.

But beyond the theoretical, a number of people I know have had the experience of sensing the spirit leave the body (and there have been occasional women who sense conception as well). Some people linger around their bodies for a while, and ghosts often seem to be those who still don't understand that they are dead. As far as the scientific level, I don't know that it has been adequately researched on a hard science level. The social sciences can get away with discussing that sort of thing, but I suspect that it would be an unwise career move given what a culturally touchy subject it is.

My mother died three weeks ago. I was with her but I did not sense her going, it was so smooth a transition that the only difference was that the monitor of the heart read a steady zero. I had deliberately worked with her for the last two weeks, to midwife her deathing as best I could, and I think that helped.

Ashton and Leska,I had something happen in connection with the death that was rather unusual. It's not something that I've seen discussed in the deathing literature as far as I recall, and the clergy I know in my faith that I've run it by haven't heard of anything exactly like it. May I e-mail you and get your thoughts on what I experienced? My email address here is a real one.

-- Firemouse (firemouse@fcmail.com), February 11, 2000.

There was mention of smells in one posting. I've on a couple of occasions been hit with evocative smells totally out of the blue that were intimately identified with the beloved dead and totally anomalous for where I smelled them (and not sensed by others there). Both times they hit so hard that they brought tears. The parts of the brain that handle smell are the ancient ones, from when smell was a more important sense for us to have.

-- Firemouse (firemouse@fcmail.com), February 11, 2000.

Surprisingly, I think anybody who makes the effort to spend some 'quality time' with themselves, clearing their head a bit from the normal day-to-day matters, will start to begin experiencing themselves, and their 'spirit' in a new and exciting way.

Sometimes this can be rather frightening, like too bright a light too soon after awakening. Blinded and confused, many quickly return to sleep.

But not all. Oh Kritter, don't take my word for it.

"Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek and ye shall find; knock. and it shall be opened to you. For *everyone* asking, receives, and the seeking, find, and to the knocking, it shall be opened." -- Jesus in Matthew 7

Does that sound too subjective? Then try this: Observe. Your very self. Your consciousness. I promise you, if you care enough about this to simply look, until you truly, clearly *see* yourself, then you will have your **own** answer regarding the eternity [and power] of consciousness.

But not all that endures is pleasant. Our spirit has a tremendous ability of drawing near to that which it loves. Those who love Beauty and Joy and Life have one kind of experience.

Those who love brutality and unfairness and 'the law of the jungle' have another.

To each, his own, I suppose. My intense prayers are with all of us who yearn after these questions.

-- tim phronesia (phronesia@webtv.net), February 11, 2000.

Its amazing, life, isn't it? So multi faceted. So intricate. So inexplicable yet so simple. The Power of Myth. The Hero's Journey. The Eightfold Path. Wisdom. Love.

 My dad died a few years ago from lung cancer, 6 months after the diagnosis. My mom was the only one who knew that 6 months was the radiologist's prognosis. Even dad didn't know and was determined to beat it until the end. Only recently did I understand that my dad was the hero of my journey, my Obi Man Kenobi. I cry as I relate this now, as a power greater than I directs my tears. The power called Love.

A science degree, a progression of highly technical careers and a subscription to Wired did not prepare me for what lay at the end of that 6 month journey. I leaned more about the important things in life in the three days surrounding his death than in my previous 40 years on earth. As my best friend said afterwards, quoting another unknown journeyman from time gone by, "You don't become a man until your father dies."

The biopsy was performed May 2, on his 70th birthday. The results were devastating. The end of the world as I knew it began unfolding shortly after I met mom and dad in the cancer wing of the medical university. I had had visions of this happening 10 years ago. And now this major precipice in life's path was reaching up to meet me.

I cried a lot that day. They stayed at my house while getting the tests done, a house with paperthin walls. I remember the morning they left for the hospital, up at 6AM, their stirring awakened me. Slightly, perturbed, in my mind, my inner voice thought "Please don't wake me as you're dying"

After the news of his condition had sunk in and the shock subsided, I began seeing connections between living things. The oak tree off the back porch was just getting the first signs of acorns. My inner voice said to me "When the acorn falls, so too will your father". I started marking new branches on my large palm houseplant. How acutely aware we can become of the mundane when we only open our eyes.

I began travelling the hour and a half trip to see my parents regularly, every other weekend, to spend time, help out and to bring gifts. They stayed with me on their trips to the city for treatment. But slowly but surely, dad's health eroded. He began losing his voice within a month, his manly pitch replaced by a raspy whisper. He never complained once during the entire ordeal. I learned about Strength.

As the year came to a close and the acorns ripened, I got a call from mom late on a Saturday morning. Ellen and I were in bed, and I let the answering machine pick it up. She said You need to come home this weekend. We think this is it.

I was shocked. The denial had placated me. The thoughts of new cancer vaccines, the imperceptibility of the gradual turn for the worse, the wish that it wasn't so had permeated my thinking. Even on the way out the door to head to their house I was thinking This isn't it. There will be other weekends. Too soon. Too soon I thought. I didn't understand that the acorn had but three days left in the tree.

I went straight to the hospital in the small town where I grew up, where my father had been admitted a month earlier. He didn't look good. But Hope was there, I brought it every time. Mom said to call her old friend, that she wanted to tell me something. Her friend was a surgical nurse. Her friend told me "This weekend will be your father's last. You need to call your sister and tell her she needs to come home." I didn't believe her. But I called my sister anyway. We discussed the issue and she decided to come home. No one can know when, I thought.

In a quiet moment alone with my father, I said Dad I want you to know that I love you and that you don't have to worry about holding on for our sake. I was expecting an outpouring of love, but instead he said "I know son. But lets don't talk about that. It hurts in here" as he pointed to his heart.

++++++++

The bird had appeared at my moms back doorstep right after my dad was admitted to the hospital. A feisty brown thrush with only one foot, looking intently for something to eat while the neighborhood cats looked intently at it as something to eat. The connection was pretty immediate; the birds mangled foot closely resembled my dad's left hand, maimed in a war accident halfway around the planet in days gone by.

He hung around for a month. My mom would go out back and call for it, and it would hop from the bushes chirping quietly. It couldn't seem to fly and apparently lived on the ground, in the piles of leaves around the bushes. She would leave it bread crumbs and water and hope that the cats wouldn't attack it.

I had heard much about the bird before arriving home that weekend. My mom was pretty pleased with it, and had been telling my father of its coming and goings to pass the time while in the hospital. We decided to use a camcorder to make a film of the bird, entitled "Dad Meets the Bird". We also filmed a new toilet and sink and gas logs that had been installed in his house since dad left home. We showed him the film Monday afternoon. He died Tuesday morning. When I left the hospital after he passed away and returned to mom's house, my inner voice told me that the bird would not be there. I searched and searched but the feathered messenger was nowhere to be found. It was the last we would see of him.

+++++++++++

The night before he died night was tough. I cried alone in a vacant hallway of the hospital, not wanting to upset my parents. I prayed that he would die soon. I learned Pity.

Monday morning I took his doctor aside and I begged "You need to tell him to let go. He has not accepted his fate and he needs to." She said that my father was from the WWII generation. They are tough and they are fighters. She agreed with my request, as she was planning on telling him the Truth anyway.

His best friend ducked in for a brief moment, to say hello, and mean goodbye. As he departed, tears crept down his cheeks. It was all too apparent that the shell of his longtime buddy was too ragged to lend any comfort to the moment.

 

Shortly afterwards, his oncologist came in and discussed the situation. After a lighthearted icebreaking, she gentle told him "I need for you to know that we are at the end of our rope. We have tried every possible treatment available to us, and unfortunately your cancer is not responding. You have very little time left, and it is important that you get your affairs in order. But let me say that in my work, I have seen a lot of people come and go, and I am convinced that there is something more to life than what we experience in this world."

Then, with his family standing around him in a room so quiet you could hear a pin drop, he said "Well, I guess its time to contact Carl Sagan," and with that, this man, too weak to go to the bathroom by himself balled up the Kleenex he'd been holding and tossed it clear across the room where it went right into a small trash can. It immediately relieved the tension as everyone laughed through their sorrow and realized just how strong our father could be. The Carl Sagan quip was intensely appreciated by my Mom and I, who often shared conversations of a spiritual and metaphysical nature that were usually largely ignored by my father. He was not a religious man, but his heart was golden. Realizing time was short, I left to go film Dad Meets the Bird.

Later that afternoon my dad began slipping in and out of awareness. The morphine now heavily saturated his brain and we were only afforded brief glimpses of his former self. His doctor had explained that what was happening to my father was that he was slowly asphyxiating as the tumor around his throat cut off his supply of oxygen. The morphine, she said, acted to separate the mind's consciousness from the body's overwhelming feeling of suffocation. Air hunger, it is called.

As his condition worsened, my sister began trying to have the same conversation I attempted a couple days before. He was much weaker now and only able to mouth the words. It hardly mattered, as how do you say that which is unspeakable? My sister, toughened in life by a childhood car accident that had caused infrequent seizures, a lighting strike that burned her house to the ground, and a painful marriage and divorce among other things, had not yet visibly showed emotion during the whole 6 month ordeal. And now, here at my dying father's bedside, as he mouthed the words that only hearts can hear, she totally lost it. She ran into the bathroom bawling and sobbing and yelling and we comforted her and eased her back into composure.

That night, we discussed our father's condition and whether or not he was aware of what we were saying. He appeared really "out of it" and oblivious to what was going on. Then, all of a sudden, he became very agitated, and although he could no longer talk, he began frantically but feebly motioning towards the TV, where Charles Grodin, his favorite program, was playing quietly in the background. Whats wrong? What is it? We said. And I leaned over his bed just in time to hear Grodin say "...Carl Sagan and the existence of God.."

 

-- Kundalini (thoughts@cloud.com), February 11, 2000.

Kritter, Your question has been asked and debated for centuries. Their are certain questions that cannot be appropriately answered from our very finite frame of reference. Because of this I feel that it is necessary to appeal to an authority that is above our limited perspective. That authority is found only in God's Word, the Bible. Jesus often mentioned the resurrection in His teaching. Paul tells us in First Corinthians 15 that if there is no resurrection from the dead that our faith is futile. The picture is given in that chapter that our body in death is likened to a kernel of grain that must die and be planted in order to bring forth a harvest of many kernels. We are also told that this earthly body is sown in corruption (mortality) and will be raised incorruptable. There is certainly a resurrection!!! Human beings are eternal creatures. We also have to accept this same authority when we are told that after physical death we face the judgement. "For it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement", therein lies the rub. We have to be ready to face that judgement. The only criteria used at that judgement is whether or not the individual placed their faith (trust) in Jesus Christ and His redeeming work on the cross or not. As Rowland said in an earlier post, the question is not whether we have eternal life, but how shall we spend it. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved!!!" "Jesus said, "I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE, no one comes to the Father but by ME."" Please feel free to email with further questions or comment.

-- phughey (pahughey@bright.net), February 11, 2000.

Kritter, sorry to learn of your family's loss. Our condolences to you and your son.

About 25 years ago, I had a unique experience. I was resting in our bedroom one afternoon suffering from one of my many bad migraine headaches. For some reason, I opened my eyes and glanced to the bedroom doorway.

There leaning up against the door was the apparation of the young 18- year-old daughter of our friends. She was beautiful, radiant, and dressed in a lovely white dress. She was just there for a second. When I blinked she was gone. We had visited with her parents one evening about two weeks prior to this event. She was fine at that time. We laughed together and took pictures at the gathering. She had a lifelong problem with asthma, but seemed to have it under control.

I did not know that she had been rushed to the hospital the morning I had the migraine. She died suddenly that afternoon. She was a wonderful girl, but an unexpected severe asthma attack took her young life.

Shortly after the apparation, the phone rang. It was a family friend calling us with the tragic news. Did I tell our friends? No, sadly I couldn't bring myself to tell them. I was afraid they wouldn't have been able to handle it, but I wish sometimes that I had told them. They are gone now.

My mother died when I was a young child, and I have sensed her and even once felt her presence. I think love endures beyond the grave. Our loved ones are always with us.

I've had a lot of other experiences, but the one with this young girl is like a story you read about happening to someone else. But it was truly an affirmation to us that there is another dimension. One day we will meet our family and friends, and I've even heard of our former pets being there to greet us when that time comes for us.

Hope my sharing all this helps.

-- Lurkess (Lurkess@Lurking.XNet), February 11, 2000.

Hi Kritter, this hits home, for many reasons, the most recent is my sister who died this past Feb 5th, and we just buried her this past Tuesday. Feb 8th. Her birthday. God is surely humorous, in a gentle kind of way. She was in the hospital and I couldn't visit her as often as I wanted to, because of the distance from the hospital and my own atrocious health, but I remember talking to her the night before she had total kidney failure, which *I* believe is when she started her spiritual journey Home, between Thursday(early) morning of the kidney failure and Saturday when she *officially* died. I got to the hospital on Friday morning, and back again on Saturday. Her body was hooked up to all these machines, keeping her (body) alive, maybe just in case she decided, after talking it over with God Almighty, to return to that body.

But she had had a double lung transplant three years before, and now she was in the last stages of an infection called aspergillous, which the doctors had JUST identified and begun to treat, and it was just too late to help her, and as they told us, all of the anti-rejection medicines were what caused the total kidney failure.

Before they found out the true cause of her illness, they were telling her that she "just needed to get more exercise" - so they had her walking. She would walk, and she felt guilty over not FEELING like walking, and then she would pass out. Then they would give her a blood transfusion. And then a colonoscopy. To find out why there was blood in her stool. They just didn't seem to comprehend that the blood was caused from the chronic diahrrea she was suffering. Thanks to all those meds they were funneling into her. The same meds that caused acute renal failure.

Then they would force her to walk again.

God. So MY belief is that on the morning she had this total kidney failure, she Suddenly noticed that she was, Number 1, no longer in any pain and, Number 2 she also realized that she could walk and walk and walk - in this 'spiritual' realm - and not get winded. She also realized that she - her BODY- truly was SICK, bad sick, which was why she didn't feel like walking. Who would feel like walking when their kidneys are shutting down?? No one would. And she was no exception. Instead of forcing her to walk, the doctors should have discovered and been treating the aspergillous. But mistakes happen.

And so I believe that she and God talked it over, her options, and I firmly believe she understood that she would have a bad struggle ahead of her if she returned to her body; and that she decided to leave her physical body behind, and I am sure she felt concern for us, because WE would be sad. But there was no sadness for Her because the spiritual self is free from pain. And I believe that God told her that she made the right decision, and "Welcome Home. You belong here." It is so unReal to me that she is no longer here. The last time I saw her alive was about three weeks ago. She was back home for a few days and I was making chicken noodle soup for her. I wish I still could be. And she was taking eight different capsules, twice a day. Just what the doctor ordered.

But she is SO much better off. And the funny thing was, the night of the day she 'officially' died I was telling her that what she had gone through was absolutely heroic. That she had suffered SO much. And then DIED. A person who was SCARED of death. In my own little superior way, I had always considered myself much more "spiritual" than she. Because, yes, Jesus talks to me - and I listen - But SHE has the Experience. And I am SO darn jealous of her and envious and proud of her at the same time.

And at her funeral, my brother had picked out some songs that she liked, and they were played - and one of them was "Wind Beneath My Wings". And I started blubbering when it started playing,and blubbered louder when it came to: "Did you ever know that you're my hero?"

I went to her grave today. Three days after her burial. All the flowers are still there. She's right there by my daddy(and her daddy)who died when I was six years old. But of course SHE isn't there.

The "other side" is terra firma to all the people who live there, just as solid as this world is to US. And we will all keep passing over,each one of us, til one day we have the very best family reunion, and will never be separated again. I personally long for that day.

-- DB (tomG@h.com), February 11, 2000.

kritter, your question is one that has been
pondered for thousands of years. I can only
speak from my own experiences.

The first problem is the confusion that we are
separate from the rest of the cosmos. When we
believe that we are individual beings with no
connection to the rest of the universe, it is
easy to consider an end to our existence. The
concept that I offer is that mind, body and soul
are one. What we can feel with our limited senses
we call body. What we know is there but cannot
perceive we call soul. The difference is only the
limitation of our senses.

The body is infinite and eternal as is the soul.
There is no death except the death of the ego that
separates us from the knowledge of oneness.

When you experience the essence of a person after
they have died, you are feeling their essence as
it still is congealed before it disperses in the
cosmic ocean.

-- spider (spider0@usa.net), February 11, 2000.

My sorrow at your loss. My suggestion or opinion, would be best answered by reading "Conversations With God" book 1. It all finally made sense. Peace.

-- Willy (Wonka@the Chocolate Factory.com), February 11, 2000.

I read of an expiriment where very ill patients were put in a special room. The room was 24/7 monitored by many types of recording equipment; infra-red, I don't remember all the types. At the time of death there is a weight loss of several ounces. Also one of the special cameras recorded an energy field coalesing from the body into a ball and then rising up until gone from the range of the camera. Very scientific and verifiable that there is a bioelectrical reaction at the time of death.

Documented cases of people remembering past lives are well known. Put the physical evidence and the documented rememberences (still unproven) together and it is enough for me to say I believe we do not completely end at death. What does happen is unknown.

-- Mr. Pinochle (pinochledd@aol.com), February 12, 2000.

kritter; I understand your feelings towards the loss of a fellow Human being,one with a heart, a mind , and a Spirtiual Soul that is still alive within the memory we hold of those who pass over. My adopted father waited for my wife and I to drive to St.Louis so that we could be with him during his last few hours. It was a time when I was not in control of the situation, I was helpless ,all I could do is talk with my DAD, tell him of our love and feelings and events of what was happening to him. So that he could understand, As I was watching the monitor measuring his pulse and heart rate,the flucuations were unreal,but his brain waves were still going,so I knew he was still alive and hearing us. The time spent with him was well worth the drive because I told him that I would take care of my MOM and for him to let go... I guess it was that that he decided to "let go" and he is now with his Military buddies discussing the Civil War and other war events. My DAD was a Civil War buff along with battles during WW2. We felt him leave his bed and go up to his Heaven, I know he is were he needs to be right now. But I kep him alive with my memory of him and all the things we did together. And I believe that is how people do not actually die, they stay and help and make themselves known several ways. Two books that I have read and mention to people are by Jon Van Prauuge , " TALKING TO HEAVEN " and "REACHING to HEAVEN" . When my Mother passed to the other side, we were in the Catholic church during the mass ,I noticed her watching all the people at the service. It was then I heard her say, " Dick, isn't it nice to see all these people". I told her in my mind, Yes Mom,it's really nice. When we arrived at the cemetary, we reached for the casket from the car and I felt her speak to me again. "She didn't want me to drop her" it was funny at the time, but I told her I wouldn't. I plan to communicate with my family when I get to pass to the other side, And I'm sure they will know it's me. There is something I heard someone say about death, " You have to have the correct change for the bus". We all need to realize that those close to us who have gone to the otherside are closer than we think, all we have to do is ask them to talk with us,but we have to open and LISTEN.

-- Furie (furieart@webworkz.com), February 12, 2000.

You guys are great! Thanks for starting this, Kritter.

The near-death experiences many people have had are my greatest confirmation of life beyond the body. They are unsought, experienced similarly by those of differing beliefs, and report similar encounters with lights, relatives, spiritual guides, etc.

I think they just tell us that the soul is the life we are, and the body carries us around temporarily.

Whether or not we reincarnate -- and whether or not we believe in a sequence of lives on Earth, or only one -- the conclusion of either philosophy is to live an ethical life, and the rest of our philosophizing is sometimes a bit of mental masturbation. (Sorry all you Buddhists and Christians both. But you know the struggle between just telling yourself stories and really DOING it.)

The struggle that goes on in our brain is that it is part of the body. It was never here before, and it is going to DIE. It does quite a bit of foot-dragging in relation to seeing anything beyond itself. It probably can't. But the parts of us that will outlive the brain's constricting control on our Earth life have to speak out and insist on a life that counts for more, while allowing the brain its wisdom to promote our safety and survival in daily life.

Whew! I read all the posts above this. Thanks for sharing your wisdom, all -- it really gave me some good hope at the end of a tiring day.

-- jor-el (jor-el@krypton.uni), February 12, 2000.

All the planets are alive, & all the rocks & streams & cars & bars. And so are we, forever....

-- robertkennedy (robertkennedy@onebox.com), February 12, 2000.

First, let me express my condolences for all, along with Kitter, who have experienced loss on this thread. Second, I've had the question of life after death in my mind nearly all my life. Even as a child I would have paranormal experiences and have always been curious as to why- whether the reason be scientific or super-natural. My first remarkable experience was "knowing" the instant of my grandfather's death, although I was 200 miles away, and hearing his voice in my mind at that instant. I was seventeen. After my parents died- ten years apart- I have had dreams of seeing them and talking to them in other locations, usually in a more beautiful and vivid place than the earthly plane. It is because of these unsolicited experiences over the years that I have studied the subject of the "other side," for lack of a better phrase, with the question in mind that you have posed. I can recommend two authors: One is Dr. Raymond Moody, whose first book on the subject was: "Life After Life." He began the scientific study of the question about thirty years ago. The other author is Bettie Eadie, who describes her own experiences on the "other side, after she had "died," and then recuscitated, in the book, "Embraced by the Light." She expresses a beautiful spiritual philosophy in her work.

But now is not the time to read books. Now is the time to come to terms with your loss in a comfortable way. Everyone grieves differently. Allow yourself and the others around you all the time and space each may require. Just rest assured that your relative lives on-- in some other existance. We here on this plane are the ones who "see through the glass darkly."

-- George (George10@webtv.net), February 12, 2000.

DB, I am sorry to hear about your sister. May her memories bring you comfort and joy.

-- Firemouse (firemouse@fcmail.com), February 12, 2000.

Thank you to everyone of you. How can you read this thread and not get misty eyed? :-) My father-in-law who passed, he was feeling fine and healthy until the day before. As he was being taken by ambulance to the hospital, told his wife he loved her, and that there was something for her in his third dresser drawer. It was a Valentines card and gift. In the card, he had taken the time to write her a poem. The gift...an angel pin. This give her great comfort. It gave me the chills.

I realize that everytime someone I know dies, (including my dog) I find myself questioning where they are and what happens to us, and what is really happening is I am once again forced to face with my own mortality and the answers I am looking for are for MY own comfort.

Personally, I believe we continue on, based both on faith and science. I have read the Van Prauge books, and Embraced by the Light.. and I enjoyed them. In fact, I'm pretty sure that what the Near Death Experiences people like Bettie Eadie speak of is probably exactly what death is like. I fully expect to float over myself and move towards the light. I fully expect Jake, my beloved Border Collie, to come bounding up to me, tail wagging, ready to show me the way. Someone put forth once that we exit our bodies as light, through the Pinial gland, the "third eye" in our forehead, which has no purpose... ..appearently, but to receive and transmit light.

Lurkess, I find interesting the fact that you were visited during a migraine. I also get migraines, but not typical. I get classic migraine aura (spinning geometric circle flashing before my eyes) which lasts about 1/2 hour, and then just a dull throb that lasts all day long. Not severe pain. During the time I have the aura, I feel like I'm between two worlds. This world becomes surreal, and I have a sense of movements and a thickness to the air, like I can SEE the air. (no, I didn't do too much LSD in the 60s, I was only a kid then) I wonder if during a migraine, somehow we are able to activate senses we are not aware of otherwise?

Kundalini, your story was amazing, especially the final line. Carl Sagan having a role to play in it, who would have thought!! Oddly, I have always told my family that when I die, I will try to contact them or send them a sign. How would they know it was me? I would mention or show them "the little bird", my pet nickname for my daughter. A bird like that on a backdoor step would surely be a sign to them.

My son is taking this all in stride. He's 16, he's accepted it and moved on already. As I was, when my grandmother died, when I was 16. I think teenagers view a grandparents death as acceptable and understandable, as opposed to losing a friend or sibling or parent.

My father-in-law was cremeted today. Some of his ashes will be spread in the outfield of Yankee stadium. (I don't know if they allow such things, but that's what he wanted...) (I'll toss them out there myself if he can wait for the season to begin ;-) Thank you again for your replies...and post more!! I like reading about life after death, don't you? It's good for the soul. (ps..sorry I couldn't reply sooner, the computer has been almost inaccessable to me since my husband started playing Everquest)

-- kritter (kritter@adelphia.net), February 12, 2000.

This thread has set a record I believe: not ONE flaming, scoffing, scorning post. Possibly those who 'know' that nothing exists except what we call the 'physical' world, were put off by the title -- the snap decision being "This thread is beyond the pale -- who needs it?"

Another possibility: the peace and love and genuine inquiring and respect for the 'other' world in this thread was guarded over by those who wanted our common reflecting unmolested by the 'sound of traffic.'

Thankful we have been able to find meaning in this short journey,

Bill

-- William J. Schenker, MD (wjs@linkfast.net), February 12, 2000.

Thank you, Firemouse. I think memories of her Must bring me comfort and joy, because memories of her are all my brain can handle right now. It's still a shocker to me, one of those unexpected deaths, we all(two brothers, three sisters)hoped she could 'jump' this last hurdle, but THIS hurdle was just too big. And we couldn't all jump it with her. Though we wanted to.

And I personally regret it, It's Also , if anyone's opinion has been deleted. Maybe deletion reminds me of death somewhat. (Yeah, I'm still hung up on death, the mystery, the separation. But that's why I'm not God. And why I'm SO glad that He isn't (a sniveling coward like) me. Of course He sees the universe from every angle, He's at a decided advantage over me.)

And no one's opinion about the 'other side'('the other side is an illusion' stuff. Nah. WE'RE on the illusion side, I'm afraid.) is going to bother me in the least.

All of you take care.

I love you, Cindy.

-- DB (tomG@h.com), February 12, 2000.

Kritter,

My condolences for your loss.

This is a wonderful thread, I have been touched by all of your stories...and I have read them all.

I wish that I could contribute something of substance here, but I cannot. I have been very blessed in my life time by not having to deal with death. Grandparents have died, that I never knew, uncles, aunts, etc. but no one I have been very close too has ever died. I am 47 now, but I do believe there is an afterlife. I think being in this world is a learning process for us, and I am learning a lot. I have lost all my children, although not due to death but due to circumstances, and have done what was best for them, that is death in a way although, not forever. Nothing is forever though.

I am thankful each day on how blessed I am, and sometimes I worry about paying the light bill the net bill, or the phone bill, but those I truely love are still on this earth with me, although not close enough to touch at times, but my heart touches them.

Sandy

-- sandy (rstyree@overland.net), February 12, 2000.

Regarding migraines opening one up to non-ordinary reality -- I'd never had migraines until about three years ago, as part of what seems in retrospect to have been a perimenopausal hormone shift. They only went on for about 6 months, but I found along with them an incredible rise in psychic phenomena and synchronicities. They certainly made quite a difference. Luckily the migraines have gone, but the sensitivity and synchronicities have remained, though they ebb and flow.

-- Firemouse (firemouse@fcmail.com), February 12, 2000.

kritter; In reading your posting , You taking your ex-fathers ashes to Yankee Stadium and spreading them around the outfield, my thoughts are that he will wait till Spring training starts,and he is excited in that only you could think about how much he loved baseball.This way he will never miss any home games. Oh, don't forget to take his glove, a lefty at that. Our Blessing are with you,Kritter,you will find he will be with you always.

-- Furie (furieart@webworkz.com), February 12, 2000.

What moving stories...my heart goes out to all of you in your losses.

There is a philosophical belief that the universe is eternal and that therefore all matter and energy within it undergoes all possible permutations and repeats them infinitely because there is no end to time or the universe.

Well, to make a long story short, this means that at some point in the far, far distant future, this exact configuration of matter and energy (that you're experiencing at this very moment) will again take place -- that is, that we will all again be in our bodies, and with the same energy that some say constitutes our souls, and going through the exact same things as we are now -- but with perhaps no memories of our past lives. And not only this, but it would be repeated indefinitely, throughout all eternity.

To expand a bit, the configuration I spoke of above would naturally be expanded to encompass the exact sequence of configurations that amount to our lives. And who knows -- maybe there would be differences in the sequences, where we might experience new things in our subsequent lives.

Yes, this a type of reincarnation (really an infinite number of reincarnations, back into ourselves)-- but with a scientific idea behind it.

Could you imagine! A non-religious version of being continually reunited with your loved ones throughout all eternity!

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), February 13, 2000.

Kritter,

My deepest sympathies to you and your husband. A son who was close to his dad takes his father's death very hard. It is almost like an invisible torch is passed. It helps when death is a shared experience. We can derive help and strength to return to joy much easier that way.

As a Christian pastor I would like to express what the Bible says about life after death without getting too long-winded as preachers are somewhat wont to do. :-)

The foundation for life after death for Christians is in the witness by the people in Christ's day of Him coming back to life. They clearly saw Him die on a cross with two criminals. History does not dispute the fact that Jesus of Nazareth was executed by crucifixion and was buried.

According to 1Corinthians 15, the Apostle Paul reveals that there were over 500 people besides the apostles who saw Jesus alive after His death. He writes this to the Corinthians so they can confirm the truth of His resurrection with these still-alive witnesses.

Christ's resurrection is the cornerstone of the Christian faith. If He didn't rise then He really is no different than any other great man. But....if He did come back to life, I'm interested, aren't you? A believer is someone who believes the testimony that He did indeed arise. AND if He did arise and continues to live then why not us?

In 1Thessalonians 4, the question of being reunited with loved ones was discussed by Paul. Believers wanted to know what they could expect. According to this passage, Paul writes that, first, Christ who has risen, returns. The first thing He does when He returns is raise the dead. Finally, Paul tells them there will be a wonderful reunion that will last forever. He concludes by saying, "Therefore, comfort one another with these words." Verse 18.

What a tragedy if life ends with the grave. I would encourage you to read the two above passages of Scripture for yourself and with your husband. I think he would appreciate that. I use them in every funeral I conduct. They are filled with hope and comfort.

For me, the bottom line has always been whether or not there is a God. If there is a God, then I don't have a problem believing He can raise the dead. But if I doubt there is a Supreme Being or if I'm not sure, then I would have doubts and questions and be uncertain about life after death. There are many evidences that has caused me to believe there is a God. Not the least of which is the great design of the simple cell now that we know how complex it is. The worlds great mathematicians have done the math and say unequivocally that it is impossible for a simple cell to have materialized on its own.

Sorry for the digression. :-) But this is a matter of life and death isn't it... :-)

God bless you, your husband and family. There is a God, Kritter, and He loves you and all of us very VERY much. Enough to make a way for us to live forever!! John 3:16. Take care, and know I will pray for you all ...down here in Cape May.

Yours in His Love,
BB

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), February 13, 2000.

to the top

-- ... (Hmm@hmm.mmm), February 14, 2000.