A very nice young couple in our church who have been active for a year, are talking about "coming forward" to place their membership. I just learned that they are not actually "married", although they have been living together for 7 years (common law).

What would you do?

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000

Answers

First....the question must be answered....is living together and not being legally married....a sin?? The answer is "yes."

Second....if they are so in love....why can't they get married?? I think we fudge the issue by resorting to the "common law" smokescreen. As Dr. Laura says..."Just do the right thing."

Third....I don't think they need to be talking about membership....I think they need to talk about repentance.

I have been in this situation twice. Couples wanted to join.....one even came forward. I counseled them that in light of their lifestyle...they would have to make some changes in order to come under the Lordship of Christ.

This resulted in one couple getting married.....the other couple left.

The end result was still of God....the purity of the church.

Let's assume you let them join. What will you say when the homosexual couple wants to join??

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000

Duane....

You're kidding me right?? I hope so.

You really do not need me to quote you the myriad of scriptures that show that sex outside the marriage relationship is an abomination.

If you really need me to...I will. Just let me know.

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000

D. Lee.....

Your situation is no different than the young man that Jesus said, "Go and sell all you have and follow me."

"The man went away sad for he had much wealth."

Once the gospel is presented.....your work is done.

You "didn't do" anything wrong......she on the other hand made a free will choice to reject the gospel by.....refusing to repent.

-- Anonymous, February 11, 2000

I agree.

But upon what will you base your refusal?

Scriptures? (Chapter and verse, please)

By-Laws?

Or inferences?

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000

Yes... it is an abomination...

My point.... we don't find "church membership" in the Scriptures...

Therefore, if someone comes forward, and wants to become a member...

all most "by-laws" say is "if the person is immersed, and expresses the desire to join"...

So if that someone is homosexual, or shacking up, or a drunkard, or a liar....

Upon what grounds do you refuse "membership"???

It cant be the Bible... since the concept of "congregational membership" is aBiblical..

So it must be based upon your by-laws...?????

which usually only list previous immersion as a pre-requisite....

So if a "previously immersed" person... who is "legally" married (according to "common law").....

Somebody throw me a bone!

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000

Yikes! That could legally be a sticky wicket!

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000

Deuane:

You say that this couple has been "in our church and active for a year". Yet you behave as if they are not members of the Lord's Church at all. Now either they are in Christ or they are not in Him. Either they are christians or they are not Christians. Now if they are not Christians they need to be treated as all men who have not yet obeyed the gospel of Christ. Convert them to Christ our Lord by teaching the gospel to them. When they are converted to Christ they will go through a process called "repentance" which should solve the problem of "living together" in fornication or adultery as the case may be. I base this on the assumption that you are correct in saying that they are not married. But asssuming that they are living in adultery they would repent in the process of becoming Christians. Acts 3:19;Acts 2:38; Acts 8:20-24;

If they are Christians already and they are living in adultery or committing fornication they should be treated the way all christians who are sinning are to be treated. THey are already members of the church and the elders as well as the other Christians have a responsibility to admonish them to repent of any sins of which they are guilty. James 5:19,20

THerefore, placing membership has absolutely no bearing on this case at all. If they are Christians and you know that they are practicing sin against Christ our Lord urge them to repent of their sins before the Lord. If they have asked to place membership teach them the truth that the day they became Christians they were added to the church and are members of the body in every place that they go. Then tell them of their sins and urge them to repent of it.

If they are not Christians then preach the gospel to them and convert them to Christ and in that process they will learn to repent of all their sins which means that they must "crucify the flesh". They must die to sin, be buried with Christ and raise to "walk in newness of life". Romans 6:3-6;2Thess.1:7-9;Romans 1;16 Acts 11:13,14,18.

In Either case, the issue of "placing membership", is not even important! Ignore that nonsense and urge them to submit to the Lord. If Christians yeild to Christ and turn from the sins that they are committing. If they are not Christians preach the gospel and persuade them to come to Christ by repenting of their sins and being immersed into Christ that their sins may be washed away add the Lord will add them to the church which NO MAN CAN JOIN. (Acts 2;38;Acts 22:16). Keeping in mind that we all were at one time in the same condition of being lost without God and without hope in this world. Titus 3:3-5. And God translated us out of the Kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of the son of His love" (Col. 1:13). Lead them to the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy spirit that comes when they hear the gospel, believe it and obey it.

Often, I fear, that we are trying to convert men to the local congregation with all of it's programs and social advantages rather than calling upon men to forsake their sins and SUBMIT to our Lord Jesus Christ. Do not be distracted from the mission that Christ sent us to do by in His holy word for something that is found in your completely unscriptural "by-laws".

Now, I am not saying that you are doing these things, Duane, but I am saying that these unscriptural matters appear to have diverted your attention from the scriptural commands of our Lord in this case. I could be wrong, but it does appear that such is the case. Who cares if they "place membership". If they are living in adultery and sin they are going to be just as lost after they "place membership" as they are now without "placing membership". If they repent of their sins and yeild to the soveriengty of our blessed Lord they will not be any more saved by "placing membership" than they would be without doing so.

Of course our Lord has already "placed their membership in your local congregation the day they became christians. No one but God can dicide who is in his family. Now if they are christians and are guilty of these sins the elders, if they have known of this for a whole year, are neglecting their duties to admonish this couple to repent. If they are not Christians, tell them that you are more interested in their coming to Christ than "placing Membership" in the local congregation. Show them if they repent God will add them to the church. (Acts 2:47).

I sincerely hope that what I have said helps, Brother Deuane.

I pray for you, Deuane, for your task requires much wisdom. Your faithfulness to Christ as is evidenced by your many defenses of the truth that I have read in this forum gives me great confidence that you can and will do that which is commanded by our Lord in all things. This I admire greatly in you. I pray that Teresa's class is going well and tell Cynthia hello for me.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000

Thanks... that was helpful... and short, for you! :)

A few things...

We haven't known this for a year. We just found out.

As I see it, they are Christians, who "living in sin". (possible?)

They know they need to get married, and are planning to do so "very soon"....

Rub question... If they have indicated that they ARE going to tie the knot... but they come forward Sunday for "congregational" membership...

Since in God's eyes, as you say, they ALREADY became members when they were immersed....

AND they came forward on Sunday.... as the preacher who was there when they walked down the aisle.... would you "extend the right hand of Christian fellowship?"

Or, would you say... "no, because although they BECAME real "members" upon conversion, they "resigned" when they began to co- habitate, and therefore must "fix" the situatian FIRST?

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Try the thread further down, has to do with Where does the Church get the Authority to marry. http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch- msg.tcl?msg_id=002K6O

Todays interpretation of marriage comes from Babylon the Great and has no basis in Scripture. It is a civil situation used by The System to keep records of people for financial purposes. And marriage by todays means is a great money maker for all involved, including the preachers. Except of course the ones getting married. (Why not take that $30,000 and use it as down on the home the youngsters will need/want.)

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Deuane:

Thanks for your response to my post. It was short for me thanks for noticing. I did not have any complicated or outlandish false doctrine to refute in this matter! Ha!

I just thought it would be good to respond to your "Rub Question" which I quote as follows:

"Rub question... If they have indicated that they ARE going to tie the knot... but they come forward Sunday for "congregational" membership...

Since in God's eyes, as you say, they ALREADY became members when they were immersed....

AND they came forward on Sunday.... as the preacher who was there when they walked down the aisle.... would you "extend the right hand of Christian fellowship?"

Or, would you say... "no, because although they BECAME real "members" upon conversion, they "resigned" when they began to co- habitate, and therefore must "fix" the situatian FIRST?"

I am happy to hear that they intend to be married though I believe that it is possible that they are already married in the sight of God.

They are already members of that congregation because, as Christians, they have been added to the body of Christ and they happen to be among you. Their fellow Christians should already be urging them to repent of their sins. But assuming that no one has done that yet, and they happen to "walk down the isle for "congregational membership" -which they would do only because such a procedure has been taught in the past and they think it is something that they have to do. I would extend to them- what should have already been extended to them- the right hand of Christian fellowship. For they did not "resign when they began to co-habitate" instead they sinned. Their sin is no different than the sins of other Christians in the congregation and no one could conceive that they have resigned. Thus they do not need to "fix" the situation "first" they need to "repent" period. If they refuse to repent they must be disciplined whether they "come down the "isle for congregational membership" or not. As Christians, they are members of your congregation and come under the responsibilities of the elders to watch for their souls. They must be lead to repentance. This "congregational membership" matter is not important. It is distracting from the real issue. They are Christians. They must obey Christ. The elders of the Church are responsible for these "two sheep" and they have wandered away from the fold though they meet in the same building regularly with the rest of the flock. The elders should have already extended the "right hand of Christian fellowship" to them and should already be urging them to repent of their sins and serve Christ faithfully. Their coming down the isle for Christian fellowship is something that should never enter their minds. It is not important. But humbly repenting of their sins, yielding to the will of Christ, and submitting to the persuasion of the elders who watch for their souls is important.

In the judgement day, no elder can say to God, concerning Christians that they knew were in their mist, that they had no responsibility to watch over them because they had not "placed Membership" with their congregation. In the judgement day, no one who is a Christian can excuse their failure to repent of their sins because they had not "placed their membership" in a congregation where they could "walk down the isle".

Our focus must be on Christ our Lord and all of us should follow the leadership of those who are elders in the Church, who teach us the word of God and lead us according to it to be obedient to our Lord in ALL things. Our "membership" has already been placed and when a Christian comes into our assembly the "right hand of fellowship" should be immediately extended and they should be expected to obey Christ, worship Christ and serve Christ with us. If they sin we should urge them to repent.

Therefore, if they "walked down the isle" for congregational membership I would extend the "right hand of Christian fellowship to them" and apologize for not having extended the "right hand of Christian fellowship" to them the very day that they came in among us. Then, afterwards I would meet with them to discuss their need to repent of their sins which is a duty that we have toward our Brothers and sisters in Christ whether they have "placed their membership" with us or not.

I hope this short response makes sense. I am at work and do not have much time to explain every detail. I sincerely hope that this helps to bring some perspective to this issue. The problem is that we have two Christians that need to repent of their sins and obtain forgiveness from God, whom they have offended, that their souls may be saved in the last day. It is sad that this "placing membership" matter, which has absolutely no foundation in the scriptures, is distracting us from the duty of the elders to "watch for their souls" and their fellow Christians to admonish them to repent. For they are, at present, in the "bond of iniquity" and our main concern is whether they should "place their membership" with us. We can see how our human traditions can "make void the word of God" can't we?

I pray for the entire congregation, Brother Deuane, for this matter affects everyone especially the elders. However, I am confident that you and the good elders will do what is right in all things.

Your brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

"You really do not need me to quote you the myriad of scriptures that show that sex outside the marriage relationship is an abomination."

Was Abraham in an abominable relationship with his concubines, plus the many patriarchs of old?

(Gen 25:6 KJV) "But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country."

Apparently it is only church leaders who are ordered to be the husband of one wife.

(1 Tim 3:2 KJV) "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"

(1 Tim 3:12 KJV) "Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well."

(Titus 1:5 KJV) "For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:"

(Titus 1:6 KJV) "If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly."

(Titus 1:7 KJV) "For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;"

How many wives am I allowed?

Financially speaking, ONE! Bible says that I can have concubines if I wanted. Weird thing to say but there you go.

So, why do these people have to be "LEGALLY" married?

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Jesus said to the woman at the well in Samaria, "You have truly said, I have no husband. You have had five husbands, and he who you now have is not your husband." (From memory.)

If there is no New Testament basis for legalized, formalized marriage in the eyes of God and man, Jesus would not have said this.

Also, Paul several times advised that the leaders of the church be the husband of ONE wife, monogamous. This sets a standard for the church today.

If they were my congregants, I would advise them that they must first show the discipline in their daily walk that Paul demands firmly of the believers in each of the churches to whom he writes, and when they have shown their commitment to the Lord in this fashion, they will be received into the formal membership of the church, which is different from being members of the Body of Christ in today's world.

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Some very interesting thoughts. What if you were to have a

(a) homosexual man/woman/couple come forward to "place membership?"

(b) known gossip and backbiter come forward to "place membership?"

(c) anyone who is actively involved in any other sin?

And let's get above the "local membership" idea for a moment. What if any of the above, or the couple "living in sin", came forward to be immersed into the Kingdom? What would you do at that point?

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Elaine,

"If there is no New Testament basis for legalized, formalized marriage in the eyes of God and man, Jesus would not have said this."

I am into learning! Teach me this legalized, formalized marriage idea from any part of the Bible.

Not talking social, LEGALIZED.

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Darrell:

There is no scriptural reason that anyone should "place membership" in the local congregation. If a person is a Christian and he or she has gone into a life of sin they should be admonished to repent of those sins by any Christian who is aware of their sin! (James 5:19). This has nothing to do with their "placing membership".

If we "rise above placing membership in the local congregation" we come to the fact that God adds "such as should be saved to the church" (Acts 2:47). God has placed their membership and no one is able to "misplace" it. We have nothing to say about their being members of the church. We are to admonish them and after the first and second admoish reject them but we cannot kick them out of God's Kingdom. Only Christ can "spew them out of his mouth". The purpose of the disippline in the church is to save them from their sins.

If a Christian comes to a congregation he is a member of the body. We must extend the right hand of fellowship until we learn of sins that he must repent of having committed. Then we admonish them. If they repent we have saved them. If they do not repent we are not to even "eat with them". We must withdraw our fellowship from such as will not repent. But how long they will remain in the body of Christ is up to Christ and not us!

So if a homosexual, or prostitute, or liar, or thief, or child molester, or any other person who is a christian comes to us we must call upon them to repent. But we do not ask them to repent so they can"place membership" with us. We ask them to repent so that they can be forgiven and genuinely united with Christ our Lord and then we can be in fellowship with them. Now just because such persons receive the right hand of Christian fellowship from us does not mean that we condone and accept their sins. It means that we are going to watch for their souls and do everything in our power, including withdrawing our fellowship which we have extended if they do not repent. But if we have not extended the right hand of Christian fellowship to them in the first place and shown them that we love and care for them how can we withdraw from them? There would be nothing to withdraw for nothing had been extended.

So let us do as you say and rise above this "placing membership" business and focus on leading men to Christ and admonishing our brethren to follow Christ.

Now naturally, we cannot baptize anyone who has not repented of their sins.( Acts 2:38;3:19). Those who are not Christians do not have fellowship with Christ or us. It is therefore imposible to extend to them that which exist only in Christ. They are not "members of the body". They have no membership that could be "placed". When they obey the gospel they will automatically be added to the church by the Lord. We will then have to accept them even if they had at one time been homosexuals, prostitutes, thiefs or any other vile and sinful person. Forgiveness is what we all must lead others toward. If they do not turn from their sins they cannot be scripturally baptized!

I pray that we follow God's word in all things. If this matter of "placing membership" were so important to God he would have revealed it in his word and answered all of our questions concerning it. The reason it is troublesome is because it is not a part of God's wisdom revealed to us in His word. Most human inovations lead to confusion. But the word of God leads to peace, unity, and eternal life.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Darrell,

"What if any of the above, or the couple "living in sin", came forward to be immersed into the Kingdom? What would you do at that point?"

I have been in this situation...a friend and I and our preacher were sharing the gospel with a woman who was living with man. She could see what she was doing was sinful, but for economic reasons said she would not change the relationship. She wanted to come to Christ, but on her terms. Further teaching ensued...still she said she would not change the situation. We did not baptize her.

Now...this is my question...did we do what was right according to the will of God? It is a scary thing to come to the conclusion we did and then have to follow through with it.

-- Anonymous, February 11, 2000

Thank you Danny for reminding me of that!

There are times especially with my family...where guilt rears its ugly head...and I second guess every thing I have said in the defense or presentation of the gospel.

A wrong word, not thinking of the right thing to say, appearing to have a harsh attitude...these and many more cause me wonder if I could have done things just a little differently.

I do try to pray consistently that I will not commit any human offense, but if offense is taken...it is because truth has been spoken.

-- Anonymous, February 11, 2000