Hello Y2KPRO,

I don't know who Sysman is, but I'm sure he is just one of the thousands that made his opinion known concerning y2k. I'm also sure that his opinion was based on the best available information at the time. Like the rest of the people that thought y2k would be a major event I would bet that Sysman is greatly relieved with the way things turned out. All of us are different and react to possible calamity in different ways. Being overly cautious is not necessarily a bad thing... If things have turned out differently I doubt that Sysman would be reposting your claims of y2k being a total hoax.. In fact if things had turned out for the worst you might have been relying on someone just like Sysman to make through hard times. No hard feeling here, but try to look at the situation through the eyes of all parties involved. Best Wishes.

Plato

-- Plato (Okie_Rascal@yahoo.com), February 04, 2000

Answers

It's a "snow day" for many schools today; therefore, Y2KPro is here bothering the good people of this board with his spamming. He has a long history of trolling. Best to ignore him.

-- (awakenow@myhouse.com), February 04, 2000.

He's pretty harmless, except for those nasty things he said about Jesus yesterday. Oh, and Mr. Polly -- are you freezing your buns off in Massachusetts?

-- Pro has got to go (@ .), February 04, 2000.

What did I miss? Is Y2K Pro calling me names again (grin)?

I try to avoid "predictions" about anything. No one has a crystal ball. The best one can do is review whatever information is available, and make a decision based on that information.

Yes, I did think that Y2K would be a more "serious event" than it turned out. And RELIEVED? Not quite the word, but very much, YES!!!!!

Listen, I hang out on a DOOMER site, because I'm interested in what COULD go wrong. Talking happy-face POLLY talk all day is fine, but it doesn't hide the fact that things COULD go wrong. This doesn't mean that I WANT TO SEE THINGS GO WRONG!

I've been a professional programmer for 32 years now, and I have seen what happens when things go WRONG with a computer. If computers were perfect, I wouldn't have a job. It's my job to fix it, when it does go WRONG.

Y2K was a very real threat. I'm very glad that my fellow programmers have treated it as such. It ain't over yet, but it gets a little better with each passing day.

Here's a prediction for you. There will be Y2K problems, as a result of this first "month-end". We may even hear about some of them here. But I don't expect any of them to ETWAWKI.

We have "strange" things going on with oil. We have a "shortage" of computer parts. We have all sorts of "interesting" reports here. Are ANY of them T2K related? I don't know, but I sure am interested in "why".

So go ahead, call me a DOOMER. I can live with that.

Tick... Tock... <:00= ...

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), February 04, 2000.

I've had a special place in my heart for Sysman. Hmmm...let me rephrase that. I've always looked for his posts because I was interested in the posts of a programmer who still enjoyed Assembler language as much as I.

Unfortunately, he and I have never agreed on the unfolding of Y2k. That doesn't make him a bad person. As with a few other computer professionals on this forum, I suspect it simply reflects the fact that he's been at one firm for a long time and didn't know the progress of Y2k remediation. Y2kPro [on the other hand] has had first hand experience in Y2k remediation throughout the nation. I've had my experiences in Y2k remediation also and the results were always positive.

Way back when hector was a pup, there was a cartoon called "Lippy the Lion and Hardy Har Har." Hardy Har Har was a laughing hyena, but he could never see things in a positive vein. He would constantly say, "Oh, Lippy...I just KNEW that would happen." whenever things went bad.

I've oftentimes been befuddled when I've seen computer professionals on this forum suggest that Y2k could not be fixed. My guess at first was that they simply hadn't seen successful remediation. Their experiences were limited to firms that hadn't paid attention to Y2k, or firms at which they weren't involved in that arena. This is certainly true of many computer professionals here....but in retrospect, I see there's much more to the story than that.

I don't know if Sysman falls into this category, but once BigDog presented a Year 2006 fictional story followed by a statement regarding "There's always a need for preps", I realized that BigDog's experience in IT NEVER should have been used to qualify his thoughts on Y2k. Actually I knew that once I learned he'd never worked on remediation, but it became more clear that his leanings towards independent living had more to do with his choice of lifestyle than anything Y2k could bring.

More eye-opening were the words of Robert Cook...who had worked at Nuclear sites for many years. I appreciated Robert's expertise in his field, but why did almost all of his posts reflect his political "complaints" [for lack of a better word.]

It became MORE apparent that Y2k wasn't the impetus for many on this forum when Bill S. posted his recent essay on being an 11.5 on the scale. In that essay Bill confesses that he has for 30 years been pessimistic regarding life in general.

In response to your question, Plato, and perhaps in response to a point raised in the essay of Bill S., the computer experience represented on this forum and the internet in general has been VERY skewed in favor of folks unhappy with the current state of affairs. It's a pity that folks honored the experience of this small percentage and in some instances changed their lifestyles drastically and irrevocably due to the voices of a small minority in which they placed trust. It's a pity that the voices of the similarly small minority of more optimistic IT/engineer types who chose to follow Y2k on the internet were dismissed as CLUELESS.

For some folks, their eyes were opened by listening. They decided that JIT purchasing was imprudent and will no longer engage in their old ways. Other folks have moved to remote areas perhaps never before experienced and have found that they've never enjoyed life more.

Life has its lessons. It has fears and it has realizations. If the ending is happy, what more can one ask? If the ending is sad, well...P.T. Barnum had a phrase for that.

In conclusion, it NEVER was about Y2k. Y2k was over once the CDC came and the power stayed on.

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.com), February 04, 2000.

Hi Anita,

We may not see eye-to-eye on Y2K, but we will always share assembly, and for that, I shall always consider you a friend. :)

Some of what you say is true. I have been at the same job for 13 of the last 15 years, and with the same 2 companies for 21 years (ie. I worked at company A-B-A-B for 6+3+2+10 years). Before that, I was "part owner" of a software company for 3 years, and before that, various "short" (2-3 year) jobs. I still "hang" with some of the people that I met 32 years, when I first got into this business. In fact, I've never had a "cold" job. I always had an "in" with someone.

But remember, I'm lucky. My hobby just happens to be my job. I play with different languages when I get home, instead of parking in font of the other tube. I try to stay current. I subscribe to IBM and MSDN. I read at least a half-dozen "trade rags" a week. Many of my friends are geeks. When I do watch TV, it isn't long before I put on ZD-TV...

My "feelings" are based on much more than my work "environment."

But you are somewhat correct, that because of my "environment" I was a "born" doomer. True, my current application is $$$ based, and anytime that you've got bucks, you've got dates. This app is so date "sensitive" that we made the choice many years ago, that because of the "age" of the mainframe "code" (Asm/Cobol) and because of the number of people that had worked on the project, each "thinking" and programming in their own style, literally over decades, with very little "actual" documentation (beyond the source code), we decided that it would be "unmanageable" if we tried to "fix" this code. Since we knew, very well, what went in, and what came out, we decided to "migrate" (rewrite) to a "new platform" (the net PC).

The project is going as I "predicted" a year ago, when I first came to this forum. We have "moved" the daty entry and editing "sub- systems" to the world of NT. But, it's not "done" yet. Some of the "bells and whistles" that were added over the long history on the mainframe, will not be ready for another year. But, we do have enough done, to get a "basic product" out the door, for LAST year.

Yes, I did say LAST year. This "product" is book, CD, and Web-site, based on 1999 information. Kinda like the tax business, we have until "publication" date, usually March, to get our s..t together from 1999.

So, we haven't seen a year 2000 date yet, and we won't, 'til 1999 is "published." Sure, we have Y2K "tested" along the way, but we still have none in production.

And, we are "stuck" with a system, that doesn't do "everything" that the "old" one did, and it won't for a while. We "think" that we have "enough" done to make the "product" still be attractive. And we "hope" that it will be accurate enough, so that the "book" doesn't end up in some user's trash can, with him saying something like "screw these guys," because if he does that, he won't be buying the book next year!!!

For me, in my current "environment," Y2K is far from over. It hasn't even started yet. But even if we fail, it won't be anything critical. Just a missed book at the library, and the impact on our lives, and possibly those of our client. No "big" deal.

Let's talk about what I did at Company A for 8 years. I was senior programmer on a "degree day" system. With "day" in the title, you can guess how date "sensitive" it is. This is the system used by home fuel oil companies (with a huge current customer base I understand), that "predicts" when YOU will need oil. Remember the old "Exxon Watchdog" ? Same idea. It uses a formula based on hi/low/average daily temps in your area (degree days), and your "burn rate", to tell when to deliver oil to your house, just before you run out.

But this is just part of a larger accounting system, that comes with it's own date problems. Interest on late payments, budget due dates, service call date/time, and the date/time when the service guy actually shows-up, so the company can say "our average response time is only XX hours).

To be honest, I have no idea how their Y2K effort is going, but I can say that it would be a huge effort, at least equal to my current situation. And they don't have the "cushion" that we do, since they work in real-time. But again, while a failure here is a little more serious (you run out of oil), it's no gig deal. You just call the oil co. and throw a few gallons of kero in to hold you off. Right?

They'll be there, sooner or later. They don't need things like the "route map" printed for the driver. They know where you live, and they'll send someone right over. But what if EVERYONE runs out of oil, because of a problem with the degree day system? How long would it take, before you get oil? How effective is this company, without a computer?

It was never the "little" things that bothered me. Heck, I was on a site today, where the year is still 100. Nobody cares, because it isn't "critical."

It was things like power. You're right Anita, the worst is over. But, is it all? Oil has always been my #2 concern, and we have some strange things going on now. Y2K related or not, it is important. It has an impact on my wallet, and if it continues, an impact on my life. You know, Peter pays Paul...

Now, want to hear the polly side of me? I've worked on many apps that don't give a c..p about ANY dates. Including our CURRENT, non- compliant IBM 4341 mainframe. By the time a date gets there, it's just another data field, that has been dealt with elsewere. We don't need no stinkin' dates!

Tick... Tock... <:00= ...

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), February 04, 2000.

Sysman:

Good to see you while I was still online. Thanks for the explanation of your firm. Regarding the oil situation, I spent 20 of my mumble...mumble years working for oil companies and still have friends working there. The problems they've seen are NOT related to Y2k. Personally, I still think the problems we're seeing are comparable to those in 1996. Did you see the thread I posted on that?

George used a chart provided therein to indicate that things were now worse than during the Gulf War, but he never responded to my post wherein prices were modified for inflation. I'd have to suck it out of the archives at this point, but I assure you that refineries have had fires at least once/week [my experience] and explosions less often, but still on a regular basis. I was your counterpart, working at a refinery for seven years. My boss oftentimes teased me because I worked wearing earphones with music and could miss the alarm bells that went off when a fire/explosion occurred. He said, "ONE day.....I'll come in here when the entire refinery is in flames and the windows gone on your office to see you STILL monitoring response time, oblivious to the chaos around you."

What's a little explosion when you have a job to do, eh? [grin]

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.com), February 04, 2000.

Y2kPro [on the other hand] has had first hand experience in Y2k remediation throughout the nation.

I'll take your word on that, Anita, but I would never have suspected. The 'Y2k Pro' I've seen on this forum is one of those people who likes to talk about other people, but not about events or ideas. He might have been more persuasive on this forum if he had emulated the excellent civility you always show, Anita.

-- (long@time.regular), February 05, 2000.

long-time regular:

If you're REALLY a long-time regular, I would think that you would have seen the posts by Y2k-Pro in which he debated [quite civilly] with Mr. Yourdon regarding rollover events. I'm sure there were others that I haven't seen, as I only came to this forum myself in June of 1999. I got to know Y2k-Pro a little bit in Bok's chatroom. As is the norm when two techs get talking, other folks left the conversation because it bored them. Perhaps this could explain why you didn't see Y2k-Pro until after the CDC or after he was banned from this forum....I can't remember which came first.

Civility in discussion is ALWAYS important TO ME. Unfortunately, the folks most civil are oftentimes disregarded in favor of more "sensational" posters. I've seen this phenomenon on every forum I've visited on the internet.

I posted both at TB2000 and Debunkers, as well as a few other Y2k- related fora less famous for heavy debate. My words were like a gnat on an elephant's back, while the words of the "sensationalists" remained in the minds of those who read them. In a sense, this was what Charles Reuben had in mind when he became the "NO NICE GUY...ALL CAPS" screamer on Debunkers. The words of all others were essentially ignored as folks looked to see what the sensationalist had said. Steve Heller likes to point to CPR's words and suggest that anyone posting on Debunkers agreed with Charlie's methods. The terms he uses to describe this agreement differ considerably from the words I'd use, but I'm just a gnat on an elephant's back. Diane and some others have described the folks who posted at Debunkers as "You and your ilk." The words of Y2k optimists [civil or not] have as long as I've visited this forum been dismissed as "you and your ilk."

Have I gone so far astray from your original thought that you forgot that you suggested that had Y2k-Pro been more civil in his discourse that more would have honored his experience?

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.com), February 05, 2000.

Anita, once again, misquotes people to twist 'facts' her own, uncivil way. For the record, I DID reply to her post concerning inflation- modified oil prices by saying:

"Anita, we both agree on the importance of deflated dollar analysis of relative prices for different commodities at different points in time, and the corresponding purchasing power for different income brackets both here (US) and abroad" (Sysman's concern, BTW).

And I added:

"But, if what we end up implying is that the price of oil is really not 'that high' today ($28) because in deflated dollars it should actually be higher... we might end up with an explosive, unbearable cost for the world economy... Same could be said for gas, kero, diesel, etc., etc. "... "Now then, the problem also is the definition of 'price'. We, in the Western world insist that it is in 'dollars'(deflated dollars, future dollars, whatever) but Arabs only care to measure 'price' in terms of ounces of gold".

To which Anita replied with her traditional, limited, US-centric vision:

"No one (sic) is using gold to buy things George, so I don't know WHY you brought that into the discussion"

Obviously, dear Anita, I rest my case.

P.S.:

(1) Have you ever heard of the gold carry-over situation honey? (2) Do Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, and Deutsche Bank mean anything to you? (3) Do you really believe your oil refinery 'friends' would tell you, of all people, if they were having Y2K problems? (4) Do you really enjoy living inside a peanut-butter and jelly sandwich? (5) Why don't you unplug those sticky earphones from your oversized ears before the entire refinery blows up in your face?

Take care

-- George (jvilches@sminter.com.ar), February 05, 2000.

Anita, Y2K Pro's experience and knowledge is not the problem. You wrote at Debunking Y2K:

"I DO recognize unacceptable behavior when I see it, and I know many others do also."

Well, we feel the same way here too. You haven't seen much of Pro's unacceptable behavior because it is usually very quickly deleted. The sysops deleted 50 or more posts from Pro in a 9-hour period yesterday alone. Some days it's better, some days it's worse. Please don't say he behaves that way because we treated him badly--that's a "See what you made me do" argument and it doesn't wash, not even when voiced by a six-year old.

You also wrote to the Debunking participants:

"What DO the regular posters want from this forum now that Y2k has come and gone? Do you want a rehash of what everyone said and DID before Y2k? Do you want an AOL fluff-ball insulting those who have contributed to debunking for up to 4 years? Do you want to remain silent while this forum slides FURTHER downhill? Doc asked what folks wanted in the form of redirection. I'm not sure what direction I'd like to see the forum take, but I'm DAMN sure of what direction I do NOT want it to take, and that's the direction it's headed in right now."

Funny--many on THIS forum have had quite similar thoughts. The "AOL fluffball" and one or two other disrupters effectively closed Debunker. As Doc Paulie said, " Due to the work of 'they know who', this forum has lost the ability to accomplish anything. Sad it came to this but it has. Besides the forum is at least 3 weeks past being closed anyhow as Y2k is a DONE TURKEY." (Note the reduced emphasis on being overdue anyway, especially as the future of Debunking Y2K was being discussed only a day before, as your post shows, Anita.) Going to deletions or a password-protected Debunking Y2K could not be considered because of the scathing criticism directed by DB at TB2K when it was suggested here; there was no alternative but to close. But password-protection is, apparently, an alternative at the Gary North is a Big Fat Idiot forum (administered by Paul Davis) as cpr sggests below to Laura, Ladylogic. He even tells Laura to go to Cherri's forum where she can be deleted! (And there's no criticism about any censorship over at Cherri's forum!)

Laura. NO MORE. They will hassle you where ever you go. NO MORE HERE. OK??

DON"T RUIN THIS FORUM ANYMORE. POST WHAT YOU WANT TO CHERRI's PRIVATE FORUM WHERE STUPID POST **WILL BE DELETED** NO MATTER WHO POSTS THEM.

Don't waste space here. This place stays up to remind everyone the NORTH was a FOOL and A FAKE in Y2k for MONEY!!

THIS IS THE PLACE THAT STARTED ALL THE EXPOSURE OF NORTH AND THE REST OF THEM.

OTHERWISE, Paul will shut this off to PASSWORD ONLY. PERIOD.

Where ever you go they are going to hassle you because to the Doom Zombies you are a TRAITOR.

ITs Deliberate on their part because they can't stand the exposure.

BUT.......you are killing the boards you post on and .....no one will listen to you anymore.

So DO IT BY EMAIL PRIVATELY.

THAT WAY....THEY WILL NEVER KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON OR WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THEM WHEN THEY ARE FINALLY ALL *EXPOSED* FOR THE SILLY PEOPLE THEY ARE.

Beside, NO ONE IS LEFT ON EY's pit now. They went to HUMP the DUMB II and you have to sign in there to post.

If this forum is not moderated it will have to close down or go to password-only, neither of which the majority has very clearly demonstrated it wants. The majority are happy with the job done by the people who monitor the forum--and that includes the delete-on-sight policy as delineated in red on the New Questions form. Please understand that Pro and some others are banned from this forum by majority preference. When and if the majority wants Pro and the others back, they will be invited. If you like Pro's pronouncements so much, Anita, why don't you persuade him to post to BFI or Cherri's forum?

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), February 05, 2000.

Anita,

"point to CPR's words and suggest that anyone posting on Debunkers agreed with Charlie's methods"

You've got a good point. But what is different from that, and Y2K Pro posting 10 comments, out of +300,000, and saying that this "represents" TB2000? Both are far from the truth.

Yes, Y2K Pro has made some good points here in the past. It's too bad that all most of us will remember about Y2K Pro is the constant waving of the hate flag.

For the record, I don't have a problem with Y2K Pro. Sure, way back when, we called each other names, and made fun of each other, because we have different opinions. This doesn't mean that we hate each other. In fact, I miss those quick, one line, smart ass remarks.

Also for the record, I don't agree with the sysop's current treatment of Y2K Pro, but I can't argue with them about their decision. I watched Y2K Pro SPAM this board. Sure, he wasn't as bad as LadyLogic or YouKnowWho, and he didn't do it as often, but DID do it. And this constant, day after day, posting of the now famous 10 lines, don't you consider than just another brand of SPAM?

If I were a sysop here, since Y2K Pro was a long time regular, I would consider accepting an apology from Y2K Pro, and let it go at that. But I sure can understand why others mignt not feel that way.

I think the rules here are pretty simple. If you SPAM the board, you will be deleted, period. So where do you draw the line? Why should they make an exception for Y2K Pro? <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), February 05, 2000.

PS - Good morning Old Git! <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), February 05, 2000.

I think the rules here are pretty simple. If you SPAM the board, you will be deleted, period.

Except that he was globally deleted before he ever spammed.

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), February 05, 2000.

hmm,

From the Ask New Question page:

 Once 3-5 regular posters request DELETE--pointless threads may be removed  Refrain from using profane/obscene language--or post will be deleted  Dont feed the trolls--please  Delete assessment of TBY2K SYSOP(s)--is final

Also from that page, a list of delete-on-sight trollsi:

 (Doomers@suck.big time!!) (Lead spammer)  You Knowwho (debunk@doomeridiots.com)  Y2K Pro (y2kpro1@hotmail.com)  Laura (Ladylogic46@aol.com)

Looks to me as if Y2K Pro was the third to be placed on the list, so the policy was in place before he was designated a DOS troll.

Now please note again:

 Delete assessment of TBY2K SYSOP(s)--is final

If you don't agree with the posting guidelines as approved by the majority of posters at this forum over many months, then perhaps you might want to start your own forum or post somewhere else.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), February 05, 2000.

"Except that he was globally deleted before he ever spammed."

That is BS, pure and simple.

I was here. I watched it with my own eyes. Y2K Pro had NO PROBLEMS here before that. Jeez, don't make me go dig it up out of the archives. I've got a busy day today. <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), February 05, 2000.

Also from that page, a list of delete-on-sight trollsi:

 (Doomers@suck.big time!!) (Lead spammer)  You Knowwho (debunk@doomeridiots.com)  Y2K Pro (y2kpro1@hotmail.com)  Laura (Ladylogic46@aol.com)

Looks to me as if Y2K Pro was the third to be placed on the list, so the policy was in place before he was designated a DOS troll.

Actually, that list was created after the first three (plus Andy Ray) were already designated as "delete on sight" in late November. Only Laura was added to the list after it was already created. Now please note again:

 Delete assessment of TBY2K SYSOP(s)--is final

If you don't agree with the posting guidelines as approved by the majority of posters at thisforum over many months, then perhaps you might want to start your own forum or post somewhere else.

Actually, I wasn't voicing my agreement or disagreement with the guidelines, I'm simply pointing out that Y2K Pro was globally deleted before he ever spammed.

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), February 05, 2000.

"Except that he was globally deleted before he ever spammed."

That is BS, pure and simple.

I was here. I watched it with my own eyes. Y2K Pro had NO PROBLEMS here before that. Jeez, don't make me go dig it up out of the archives. I've got a busy day today. <:)=

That's okay, you don't have to go dig it up. I will.

The relevant thread is here.

The relevant posts are as follows:

Lisa,

A & M thread cleaned up.

Posters, you may see some "gaps" in the conversations. Doing some global snipping of "known" trolls.

Leave... (Doomers@suck. big time!!) & Y2K Pro (y2kpro1@hotmail.com)... it's time.

Nuf' said.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 19, 1999.

----------------------------------------------------------------------- -

Okay,

Y2K Pro... global snips for you.

Had it!

LEAVE... DeBunker... Go home!

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 19, 1999.

At this point, all posts by Y2K Pro were deleted on sight. The spamming began after this.

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), February 05, 2000.

Listen hmm, I'm not going to agrue with you about when the first few waves of "attack" started, but you do have the correct time frame.

The point is that Y2K Pro had a free hand here for many monthe before that. I've been here since last Feb, and Y2K Pro was already very well known, and had VERY FEW IF ANY of his posts deleted.

But then, he went too far. <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), February 05, 2000.

PS

Or she went too far. I don't think we ever did settle that point. <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), February 05, 2000.

The point is that Y2K Pro had a free hand here for many monthe before that. I've been here since last Feb, and Y2K Pro was already very well known, and had VERY FEW IF ANY of his posts deleted.

That's true.

But then, he went too far.

Actually, it looks more like the sysops just got tired of him and a few others.

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), February 05, 2000.

Fine hmm, you go on thinking what you want. It's obvious that nothing I have to say will change your mind.

My opinion is that an exception should be "worked out" with Y2K Pro, but I'm not the one to make that call, and quite frankly, I'm glad that I'm not. The sysops here have a hard enough time, keeping up with morons that post porno, racist messages, and crap like that. They don't need this SPAM nonsense. Remember, they are CONTRIBUTING their free time, to try and keep this place "usable" for everyone, and I think ther're doing a great job.

Anyway, I've got some dial-in "work" to do, and I've got to clean up this dump that I call a bedroom.

See you kids later. <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), February 05, 2000.

FYI,

Y2K Pro and AndyRay began joining Doomers@suck.big time!! the Lead spammer and You Knowwho (debunk@doomeridiots.com) in massive Forum spamming attacks that went on for 3 days beginning the Friday of the weekend before Thanksgiving. We "watched" them do it... and had to deal with the crap.

They ALL crossed the netiquette line and they know it. After that point they've been tossed ever since.

'Nuf said.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), February 05, 2000.

George:

You're absolutely correct. You DID eventually respond, and I remember your response now. Before you did that, however, you used the data I provided in multiple threads on this forum to suggest that oil had never gone above $20/barrel save in times of crisis, without considering that $3.00 in 1973 [for instance] had MUCH more buying power in 1973 than it did in 1998 [1998 was used as the "equalizing" year in the followup information.] I apologize for not remembering your response and apologize to this forum for stating publicly that you had not responded.

Now regarding gold, George, how is the value of gold measured? Is it measured in terms of loaves of bread it can buy at a given point in time, or is it measured in terms of $$$? Does anyone buy gold with gold? I'll disregard your other statements/questions, George except to say, "Yes. My friends at the refinery would have absolutely no reason to lie to me about ANYTHING. I'm not talking about work acquaintances here, George. I'm talking about relationships that developed over time. I'm talking about people who were there for me when my father died...people with whom I've broken bread and shared wine, people who got together and passed the hat when the families of co-workers needed money because the main breadwinner died or became hospitalized due to one of those fires/esplosions that most see only as an increase in what they pay at the pump.

Sysman and others: I don't know HOW what I said to "old regular" got blown up into a discussion of the deletion policies of this forum. Sysman said he came here in February and remembers discussions with Y2kPro. My point was simply that if one were TRULY an old regular, one would also remember the days when Y2kPro engaged in civil debates regarding Y2k remediation. He's definitely NOT a 17-year old "wanker." [Was that the term someone used?] I went on in that post to suggest that the words of the "sensationalists" are oftentimes the words folks remember. Does anyone remember Y2k-Pro's words when he was NOT a sensationalist?

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), February 05, 2000.

Hi Anita,

Sorry for the delay. Between work and the IRS site (those bastards), I've been a little busy this PM.

First, I guess it's partly my fault that this has gone OT. But since the thread has my name in it, and starts out addressed to Y2K Pro, it seemed like the place to have my say on this issue. :)

Yes, I do remember the days when Y2K Pro had something intelligent to say, but how many here today do? All we've seen from him in the past few months is the same old "flag" every day. It doesn't represent this forum, and I'm tired of it. "'Nuf said." Second, do you have a link, or URL, for this thread that you and George are discussing? As you know, I was AWOL for about a week, and I'm sure that I missed a bunch of stuff, trying to "catch up" (as if I ever could...).

Finally, as far as "I was your counterpart," I sure hope not (grin)! About the only thing I "know" about oil is how much your furnace burned today, and how to send you an invoice, and how to subtract it from inventory, and, well, you know...

But there are "interesting" things going on with oil now. Y2K related? I don't know, it may or may not be one of several factors in play now. I'm going to keep an eye on the whole picture for a while.

Anyway, back to "work" ... <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), February 05, 2000.

Y2K Pro and AndyRay began joining Doomers@suck.big time!! the Lead spammer and You Knowwho (debunk@doomeridiots.com) in massive Forum spamming attacks that went on for 3 days beginning the Friday of the weekend before Thanksgiving. We "watched" them do it... and had to deal with the crap.

Yes, I saw it too and I don't envy the amount of work you had to do to clean it up. However, I don't believe Andy Ray ever spammed. As I recall, your concerns were that he visibly "supported" the actions of the spammers.

They ALL crossed the netiquette line and they know it. After that point they've been tossed ever since.

My only point was that they had already been tossed before the spamming began. That's all. I'm certainly not arguing whether they crossed the netiquette line by spamming.

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), February 05, 2000.

Anita, you are deliberately twisting facts again. As you bloody know, I answered your post IMMEDIATELY (instantly, as anyone can verify) and not 'eventually' as you say.

Also, I never said nor implied that the current situation was any worse than during the Gulf War.

Is this also part of your "civility in discussion so ALWAYS important to YOU"? (sic)

Re your appreciations vis-a-vis the price of gold:

(1) obviously enough $3 in 1973 bought more gold than $20 in 1998. That's precisely the reason why the Arabs (owners of the oil after all) got sick and tired and sent it to $28 as soon as they could work it out.

(2) for Arabs (and for many others actually), gold is not measured neither in loaves of bread nor dollars. Physical weight of the stuff (ounces) is their only unit. Up to 1971, the US guaranteed that $35 dollars would buy an ounce of gold. After Nixon declared the non- convertibility of the US dollar into gold, the Arabs have been increasing oil prices as much as they possibly can/are allowed in order to restore the gold value (ounces again, Anita, ounces) of a barrell of their non-reneweable oil. I hope you are able to step out of your peanut-butter and jelly sandwich for a minute and understand their logic Anita, 'cause after all they do own their oil.

-- George (jvilches@sminter.com.ar), February 05, 2000.

Hi Sysman! The URL you asked about above concerning oil, etc. is :

"http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002UVt"

Take care

-- George (jvilches@sminter.com.ar), February 05, 2000.

Sysman:

I couldn't get George's link to work, but if you're still interested, here's one that should.

Original thread on this year's shortages compared to 1996

George: It's apparent to me that you're simply trying to push my buttons. Although time-stamps are NOT posted, I can assure you that I posted the inflation-comparison information VERY early on the 27th....5am CST to be exact. Your reply was on the 28th, AFTER you used the original data both in a separate thread you presented, as well as in the following:

Example /a>

I could find several more examples of where this information was posted if I wanted to search the archives further, which I do NOT.

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), February 05, 2000.

children!

"He said She said and then we said" does not become you. ANY of you. Try to stay on the SUBSTANCE of the discussion, not when rebuttals were posted LOL.

In terms of gold for oil, it has been documented in a number of fora and on number of reputable sites and printed documents that the ONLY medium of exchange for oil is gold, to the sheiks of the Middle East. A little basic research will turn this up.

sysman, Good to see you back around. Hire a maid. Busted wings and ribs HURT (been there)

In terms of degree days, one of the largest propane co's in the country has a 3 story map of the US, with the real time temps on it and current (and agregate (MTD, YTD)) degree days displayed for each of the cities they are in. Highly impressive.

Joss

(Sysman-Thomas Register??)

-- Joss Metadi (warhammer@Pride.of.Mandeyne), February 06, 2000.

Anita, anyone that takes the trouble to link to your "Example>a" above can easily see that you can be both a joke and a royal pain in the neck at the same time. Get a life, will ya.

-- George (jvilches@sminter.com.ar), February 06, 2000.

Joss,

Let's see, how should I put this. I am involved in the "publisher services" area, and I am, let's see, very, very, very familiar with Thomas Register. However, it is not "the" project in this case.

In the ball park, but the wrong game. <:)=

PS - Thanks for the link Anita and Geroge. I'll check it out when I get back from the IRS site.

Those bastards...

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), February 06, 2000.

Sorry Joss, that does sound a little too cryptic. Let me put it this way.

There are only a few things in this world that I know very, very, very well. One of those is programs that I have written in the past.

And that's all you're going to get out of me! <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), February 06, 2000.

THIS THREAD I STUMBLED UPON IS MOST INTRIGUING ON SEVERAL COUNTS

1) I now can confirm what I had wondered about after her positive response to my '11.5 Doomer' thread: 'This' Anita is not the same Anita (Spooner?) that I tangled with in mid 1999 --- what a refreshing contrast.

2) Also people on this thread said nice things about my obsession (At least before I dropped out of programming and back into doctoring in '81.): structured, 100% documented, assembly language programming. Yeaaa, BOY! (I'll do a private email to Anita and Sysman with my little saga in the '70s, tangling with a giant HMO's Computer R&D Dep't.)

3) But most important of all about this thread is it has triggered the 'critical mass' and jump-off point for my sequel to the first "11.5 Doomer" thread. It will open with a shockingly non-judgmental (and often supportive) analysis of some of our more famous pollies' private email interchanges with me. Then will come The Grand Finale, a crescendo of foaming-at-the-mouth castigation of the phenomen I lovingly call:

The Escalation of Divergent Viewpoints To A Level That Makes WWII Appear As A Garden Party By Comparison, Thereby Assuring That No Addition To The Common Ground Of Truth Has A Ghost Of A Chance Of Seeing The Light Of Day In The Thread So Victimized, In Addition To Which The Otherwise Often En-nobling Characteristics Of The Involved Doomers And Pollies BOTH Suffer A Total Disappearance Into The Black Hole Of Ego-driven Pre-Kindergarten Behaviour. (I would have written this sentence dIeTEr sTyLE, but I don't need a bad case of carpal tunnel syndrome.)

No One Will Be Spared (altho I may fashion the diatribe so that I myself come through as an ivory white Saint who only sins once a century. Guess what THAT pecadillo was.) Watch for it in big lights on your local marquee shortly.

Bill

-- William J. Schenker, MD (wjs@linkfast.net), February 06, 2000.

Re my private emailing of my ass'y language story, it's coming shortly to you, Sysman. As for you, Anita, since you have an anti-spamming addr you'll have to BEG for the saga (IOW, send me a real addy.)

Bill

-- William J. Schenker, MD (wjs@linkfast.net), February 06, 2000.

Dr. Schenker,

I just finished reading your GREAT story. I think you should post it here as OT. I'm also allergic to penicillin.

Funny, just last last night, I was telling vbprog about how to use macros to "design" a language. I've been involved in 2 over the years. One was a File/Screen program, that sounds similar to your example, and similar to CICS on the mainframe. The other was a composition (typesetting) system. The commercially available VersaComp compiler is a result of a "parallel" effort, that started with the same "macro based" system that I worked on.

Programmers: What language recommended after Y2K?

It all ends up as machine language, no matter if you use a compiler or assembler. I like to talk to the machine in it's own language. Yea, I know, I'm a little strange...

Thanks Doc. <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), February 07, 2000.

PS - You can read about VersaComp here:

http://www.pagetec.com/over view.htm

Remember, I don't work with VersaComp itself, but the "grandfather" of VersaComp. Both have matured over the years... <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), February 07, 2000.

SYSMAN:

If you're really gonna twist my arm I guess I'll hafta post my story here, even tho I'm so shy with my words.

#############################################################

THE JOYS OF ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE, Bill Schenker, 2/6/00

In '77 I was faced with the challenge of developing a MIS (medical info system), not another in the endless series of billing, laboratory, or archival applications -- but for the real life, saving lives situation I was encountering daily (in my other, non-computer life) as an ER doc in the world's largest HMO (which shall be nameless, but hint: I worked in the SF Bay area.) We were constantly faced with seeing a patient back days later WITH NO HARDCOPY RECORD (the clinical chart) OF WHAT THE DOC WHO SAW THE PT PREVIOUSLY HAD THOUGHT, PRESCRIBED, OR PLANNED. That included, just as one of a series of real life examples, not knowing the doc had entered on the pt's chart a history of penicillin allergy. Add to this that the returning pt herself (If given a choice I think I'd would have preferred a practice close to 100% female -- they're usually so much more grownup about their own and their family's health -- so please let me indulge myself by using the term herself) reasonably assumed the doctor listening to her story on return (who of course was NOT THE SAME DOCTOR -- different day, different shift) would be aware of her penicillin allergy since he had access to her previous visit's charting, right? Wrong.

The chart was suffering from 'information float' --- lost somewhere betw the ER and Typing Pool (where the poor girls had the impossible job of trying to interpret the doc's dictated mumblejumble, punctuated by coughs, sneezes, and worst of all, burps.) When would the hardcopy get back to the chartroom, so it could be routed to the doc who's now seeing her (while he's backed up with maybe 5 more pt's waiting to see him?) How does TWO WEEKS sound?

So what did the doc do, seeing she had not responded to Erythromycin previously Rx'd? He prescribed Amoxicillin (which the pt did not recognize as a penicillin-related drug.) You say, shouldn't the doc have ASKED her if she was allergic to pen? Are you kiddin'? -- back then you had to be a compulsive/obsessive nut like me to make sure EVERY pt got asked before EVERY Rx of pen was written, whether the pt was allergic to pen. Back then, there were plenty of docs who skipped that little time-consuming step. Yes, Virginia, there actually WERE incompetent, mediocre hacks with an MD after their name. (Thank heavens 'that's a thing of the past.' And yeah, of course I never met anyone equally as incompetent and mediocre among the programming profession either. Sheesh.)

So what happens in these kinds of cases? Sometimes the pharmacist would pick up the error, if he was the neighborhood druggist and knew his customers. Sometimes the pt would start the meds, develop a severe rash, call the ER, & be told, 'For heaven's sake STOP the pills and come right back to the ER' (Do I hear the faint rustle of a malpractice carrier's lawyer in the wings?) And sometimes, fortunately rarely, the pt within a few minutes of swallowing the first pill would go into anaphylactic shock, a very embarrassing situation for the prescribing doctor, and incidentally the pt -- some of whom, sometimes only minutes later, long before the ambulance arrived -- died.

So I put together an S-100 box, designed my own touch panel input overlaid on the left side of the CRT display (having previously tested and discarded as a big joke, 2 different commercially available 'voice input' devices), upgraded an old SCM electric typewriter into a printer, designed the I/O board, and put it all on a rolling cart that easily fit in my cubicle in the ER. On this platform I installed my custom structured assembly language program. I generated 80 screens (now called 'Windows' by that thief of all thiefs, Billy Gates) [using my own screen image generator -- what might be called a VA {Visual Assembly} module {a little earlier than Microscrew's VB}], and was able to 'hypertext' to any one of the 80 screens within a few seconds, including heirarchal moves, with the touch screen -- without the doc having to so much as hit a key on the keyboard (Ever try getting arrogant docs to seriously approach a keyboard, at least way back in the 20th Century?) Each one of the screens gave him sufficient choices of commonly used 'boilerplate' to work up a full chart entry within about 60 seconds. (He was also given an option for 2 lines of 'free text' -- but I made the doc jump thru a hoop or two, to minimize the attraction.) The nice thing about that design is that what got saved to disc (auto saved) was just the doc's coded touchpad entries, providing text compression of from 10:1 to 200:1, depending on the phrase choices selected. Plus their was an 'auto printout' to the printer of the day's chart record, that the DOC SIGNED RIGHT THERE, MAKING IT ALL LEGAL; then the chart room people would come by at the end of the shift & stick the sheets into the conventional chart. Plus the doc couldn't get anything to print out, or save to disk, unless he first touched the 'signature' button on the touch panel. And he couldn't get to the system in the first place without typing in his password. (Hackable? Sure. But remember, he'd already signed the hard copy. Could someone track down the hard copy and make it 'disappear'? Sure, but hey, this is where I get off.)

How did I do all this? Why I developed my own macro language, what else! Was that all there was to it, and wasn't the 80 screens thing simply a menu-driven app? Sure, all you C++, Pascal, PL/1, COBOL, etc., etc. guys/gals can talk about how easy it would be to do it 'high-level.' My comeback: never would have it fit in that dinky little S-100's memory, or would it have run with the lightning speed that was needed to keep the docs from walking away from the whole deal. Then of course I could always have 'FORTH IN THING WHOLE THE WRITTEN', but fortunately I took a FORTH workshop at Humboldt State back around then. Whew! Boy am I showing my obsolescence. But it was fun.

P.S. Why did I choose that ugly clumsy bus-oriented S-100 box as a platform? Well, I was the guy who organized the first and only industry-wide S-100 Conference at Daiblo Valley Junior College in 76 (or 77?) Everybody who was anybody in the fledgling micro industry came (except for that smug SOB, Carl Helmers of BYTE mag.) George Morrow was a good guy, but the rest of the manufacturers were glued to their proprietary violations to keep out the competition. I pleaded with them to 'get on board the same bus' before somebody came along with an all-in-one motherboard and put 'em all out of business. Well within a year of course Apple + Visicalc did just that. But every time I think about it I want to kill: if they'd have gotten it together we could have aced out IBM from finally figuring it out a few years later (I remember a couple of their design EEs coming over to my booth at a NCC in NYC, talking about their braindead 5010 or was it 5050 -- anyway svl giant steps BACKWARD from current micro technology.) What a liberating coup that would have been. Of course, we got the revolution eventually, but it was & still is pretty tame compared to what it could have been. And finally, we would have had a good chance of acing out that slimeball Gates from pulling off his 'serial crimes,' successively stealing, and then mangling by the time it got to market, all kinds of good ideas from OTHER brains. Why did we have a better chance of pulling it off? 'Cause we knew the details of his sordid character, from the day he peddled that stolen BASIC to what he did to Digital Research with DOS, to the 'crime of the century,' getting away with stealing 'Windows' (Of course Apple got their just deserts on that one bec of their theft of Xerox's stuff. Another story.)

P.P.S. Why didn't I stay in MIS and further develop my system? Well by '79 the other docs in the ER had tongues hanging out drooling, each wanting their own standalone system. So I went to the head of Computer R&D (where I was employed part-time) of the HMO in downtown Oakland, & made him an offer: I would donate my software gratis, & my labor gratis. If he would come up with $2000/per unit for the hardware, I could put together 5 systems for the 5 other docs in the ER. The whole deal would cost him $10k, for 5 more copies of a system that had been ONLINE, BUGFREE for TWO YEARS. His response? "Sounds very interesting, Bill. Why don't you write up an RFG (Request For Grant), I'll get you $100k, and you can do a feasibility study?" "But, Ted, we don't NEED a FEASIBILITY study --- it's been on the road for two years!" "Sorry, Bill, that's the way we do things here." ('The way we do things here,' BTW, included blowing an entire S360 project, then a Series1 project, [and I believe later a S370 project.] -- much of which I got to witness.) I went home, told my wife I'm quitting the computer industry, we're packing up, and getting the hell out of SF and those kind of people. So I ended up being a country doc in eastern WA, for 6 more year before retiring. Incidentally, with all those tire marks on my back plus all the other stuff I witnessed either 1st hand or learned 2nd hand while embedded in Silicon Valley culture, it was pretty easy for me to proclaim when Y2K showed up that the pointy heads managing the show would do their usual dance, and it would TEOWAWKI, fo' sho.' So I was wrong about that -- and of course, being an 11.5'er I'm real sorry The World Is Still In One Piece. But what the hey, ya' can't win 'em all ya' know.

END rant. END saga.

##########################################################

Enjoy, Bill.

-- William J. Schenker, MD (wjs@linkfast.net), February 07, 2000.

SYSMAN:

One more thing I have on my mind to say to you (It'll only take 2k more of memory.)

################################################

Glad you liked the 'HMO' story.

Re that 'programmers language post-Y2K' thread --- I'm a sneaky little bugger: I've been following it since its lead post; always been fascinated with progr. languages ever since I tried to be the obstretrician of SDL ('Self Documenting Language'), guiding the delicate fetus to a healthy delivery, somewhere in the late '70s. What a story that was -- learned lots about the 'anthropology of the aborigines tribe called "codeheads."'

I had already learned a bitter lesson about the flakiness of their 'waterwalkers' (showing my age -- what do they call the supergeeks nowadays?) -- when the programmer I had contracted to write my MIS system for the ER, called me up 6 months after starting and said, "Hey , Doc, I've decided to drop your project -- just not interested. See ya'." (!!!! ----- %^&*+@#$=;">thought of trying had I not just been tutored by a great guy [the lead man on the S/360 project that had previously imploded, sucking a couple mill bucks from our HMO] in the basics of structured programming.)

Anyway, I bumped into SDL as an article (in EDN?) It sounded fascinating: write your code using English words only, using no abbreviations, using English syntax (!!FORTH, YOURSELF SCREW GO), using assembly language architecture and formatting, the whole thing being written in machine specific assembler macros (I think the platform was Z80, but it may have been 68000.) The author showed some sample Source and the macros under it. The thrust of the language was to PREVENT BRILLIANT BUT IMPATIENT PROGRAMMERS FROM WRITING UNDOCUMENTED CODE, discourage 'spaghetti code' architecture, preserve the power, tightness, control, and speed of assembler, AND at the same time avoid the verbosity of COBOL and PL/1. Ta Da!!!

I was so excited I tracked down the author in NYC, where he was I believe a contract programmer, talked to him at considerable length, got more excited, and flew out to visit him at his apartment in Queens. I arrived in a lower income neighborhood, where all the cars were beat up, with the steering wheels locked with 'The Club,' and all the trunk locks reinforced like from Fort Knox (what a rude awakening since I had last purveyed Queens, the boro I knew in the '20s to the '60s.) The door opened to a shaggy-haired, somewhat unkempt young fellow, with an equally unkempt apartment, and his wife. I re-explained I was an ER doc who part-timed as a programmer/hardware guy for an HMO, and how excited I was about SDL, and how I wanted to support his project in any way I could --- find money for him, help him technically, whatever. Both seemed pleasant enough during my visit, and I scheduled another visit for the next day, to nail things down. However, when I called to confirm that night I got a blast of indignation, rebellion, condescension, and downright offensiveness that just about knocked me off my feet -- in no uncertain terms he informed me he was not interested in associating in any way with me, the joint project was kaput, and he was interested in no further conversation with me! Never did figure out what his problem was, but I suspect it had something to do with mistaken identity with his father figure, rebellion against the monied capitalist criminals, or who knows.

Back to reality, yes I carefully followed the trail 'vb' was making in his posts. So much wanted to tell him if he wants to be really"RAD" he could do a lot worse than write his own language from scratch, with macros. After knocking off or cribbing from elsewhere the low-level macros, he could then proceed to develop all the bells and whistles he could ever imagine, more customized than he could ever imagine, and faster than Clinton can back his way out of a lie. But I figured he would consider Ass'y as having no 'couth' when compared to those Hollywood Stars like C++, etc. Also, I felt it beneath me to post to the same thread that someone else said "make ADA the standard" as his choice for the language of the future. -:} .

Final comment. One of Schenker's Laws: programming is the closest thing to producing a living thing that the male gender can ever come up with.

P.S. Strange .... somehow, some why (can't remember) the details, I bumped into VersaComp a long time ago. Interesting. Tnx. B.

-- William J. Schenker, MD (wjs@linkfast.net), February 07, 2000.

You're a man after my own heart Doc. I haven't found a machine yet, where I didn't love it's assembly language.

I was still in high school (1967), when I learned Fortran. Never did much with it, beyond my own playing, and a small project several years later.

The following year, I landed a job as a second shift operator at a service bureau with a 360/30. This was a great deal. Once the nightly production was done, I could DO WHATEVER I WANTED, as long as I didn't get carried away (ie. burn thru boxes of paper, etc.). On average, I had 2-3 hours a night of FREE MAINFRAME TIME!

It didn't take long before I discovered COBOL! This was much easier, programming based on ENGLISH, instead of ALGEBRA! I started going in early, while the programmers were still there, to bug them. I guess they didn't mind, because when I graduated the next year, they hired me as a "programmer trainee." I couldn't believe it, I was now getting PAID for my HOBBY! By the way, I'm still good friends with a couple of these guys.

Well, if you know COBOL, then you know CORE DUMPS. It didn't take long before I put 2+2 together, and figured out that this MACHINE LANGUAGE that I was already looking at in dumps, was just another word for ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE! I haven't looked back since. Sure, I get "stuck" working on COBOL, or some other language once in a while. In one case about 3 years full-time, doing CICS/COBOL. But if I'm doing something new, and I have my choice, you know what I'm gonna do!

My first "home computer" was an Atari-800. Nice machine, for it's day. Same 6502 CPU as the Apple, 64K, SS 180K floppy, and TVOUT. My first program? The MAE Assembler. The 6502 had a pretty kool machine language, but that's another story. I also started playing with BASIC on this machine.

At work, we had a new project that used Fortune (remember them?) computers. These were based on the Z-80 chip. The first book that I opened was titled "Z-80 Assembly Language."

I don't think I have to tell you what I did when I got my hands on an IBM/PC. Sure, I've played with a bunch of languages, and I've even helped design a few. But Assembly Language, and it's Macro features, will always be my first love. Like I said, I'm a little strange... <:) =

Speaking of Macros, have you ever done anything with the S/3x0 mainframe assembler? Now that is one powerful macro processor, vs. somethimg like MASM. It's like a $100.00 bill vs. a dime!

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), February 08, 2000.

PS

I guess this thread is kinda back on topic.

It started by Plato saying "I don't know who Sysman is".

At least now you know a little bit about me... <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), February 08, 2000.

Yeah, what if y2k had turned out the other way. Andy Ray, and Pro probably wouldn't be around to eat the crow (or maybe that is all they would have left to eat).

-- ,-, (comma@dash.comma), July 04, 2000.

"Yeah, what if y2k had turned out the other way."

HAH. No intelligent, informed person thought y2k would be over a "3" after fall of '98. There was no "what if", but the doomers won't admit that. There was no "luck" involved in y2k, but there sure was a lot of hype and huckstering going on!

-- (y2kw@s.paranoia.for.most), July 05, 2000.

No intelligent, informed person thought y2k would be over a "3" after fall of '98.

I disagree. See...

"Quotably Quoted - What the 2/99 Senate Report Really Said..."

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003HW8

-- (history@of.Y2K), July 12, 2000.

like I said....."no intelligent informed...."

-- we are talking about the senate (y2kw@s.paranoia.for.most), July 12, 2000.