To all,

From what I understand, the Debunker's forum has closed.

I was there yesterday, and -- you know, I found a group of mostly kind, decent, intelligent people -- just like us. Yeah, they have a few loonies...but so do we.

I encouraged them (there are some who are not welcome here, and I recognize and agree with that) to visit here, and if they stop in, I hope we will treat them with respect, and that we can all at least put the past behind us, and accept them graciously. But more than this, I trust that we'll be willing to share with them and be open to learning from them. And you never know...perhaps new friendships will arise...

I know that there are some relationships where there's so much dislike and bitterness that practically nothing can be done. But, is it possible for us to try to look beyond past conflicts, as much as we're able, and give it our best shot?

I think we'll all be the better for it if we can.

-- eve (123@4567.com), February 01, 2000

Answers

"Past conflicts"?

Define "past".

Check out:

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002SpG

One of your "kind, decent, intelligent people" tried to "out" me, hten launched into an attack on his -intended- stalking victim with one vile personal attack after another, complete with the mandatory thinly veiled threat.

Mark my words: sooner or later, one (or more) of those hotheads will go postal in a big way.

So to answer your question about treating them with respect, trying to make nice nice, and looking beyond their behavior, all I have to say is, you have GOT to be kidding.

Get back with me when they stop behaving like a pack of rabid dogs.

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), February 01, 2000.

Kind, decent, intelligent people wouldn't have been caught dead on that forum. You've been horn swaggled. How familiar are you with this history?

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), February 01, 2000.

PS: I went and looked at that hellhole, and it made me sick to listen to all the cloying ass-kissing of the two mongrels-in-chief.

The phrase "Stockholm Syndrome" kept ringing in my ears.

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), February 01, 2000.

eve, I'm sure you meant well, but really, I don't think you have any idea what you're doing. Old Git gave a good rundown of what the Debunkers are all about and you yourself alerted the sysops to be ready for their disruptions. Now you're inviting them here? If you enjoy dealing with trolls, then go find them yourself. This forum is running just fine without them.

-- (hal@gostek.org), February 01, 2000.

Ok, guys...I'm starting to get a lot of flak for this...I don't know -- maybe it's well-deserved.

All I'm speaking of is my experience there yesterday, and with other "pollies" who have posted in both forums over the past several months. To the extent you were hit with hostility, outing, etc. that I'm not aware of, I really didn't intend to misrepresent your views, and I apologize for that.

-- eve (123@4567.com), February 01, 2000.

You must be blind as a bat, or incredibly dense to have anyone believe you weren't aware of the -rampant- obsession with "outing" and destroying their victims.

Give me a &#$%@!* break.

Did you even read the link I put in above, or were you afraid it might color your opinion of your pet snakes?

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), February 01, 2000.

I just wanted to add that I know you didn't have to have taken a direct hit from them...I know a lot of you have observed a great deal of hostility as well -- and to the extent you feel bitter about any of this -- well, depending on the circumstances, I probably would too -- this is a point that is very well taken.

I'd also like to explain further, though, that I have also read posts from various "pollies" from Debunkers, who have contributed here -- people I've rarely spoken to (e.g., Anita, Cherri), as well as some I've had various levels of disagreements with (e.g., Flint, Decker) -- that I do respect as well, because I think their posts are civil, and, in my opinion, reflect an honest, considerate person behind them.

-- eve (123@4567.com), February 01, 2000.

Sluggo,

I'm really sorry to hear of your experience. I'll check out the link.

-- eve (123@4567.com), February 01, 2000.

Hal,

I meant every word in my response to Old Git, and I stand behind that post. I really am fearful of and do not welcome some of them (e.g., Ladylogic, Schwarz).

Will,

I hope my further explanations and apology are ok. If not, let me know.

-- eve (123@4567.com), February 01, 2000.

Why don't you start your own group, and invite them all over 'there'? Then you can all be happy together and leave us the h*ll alone!!

-- Porky (Porky@in.cellblockD), February 01, 2000.

Please tell me NO....I saw their horrible board and never saw anything worth responding to. Don't let 'em come here!!! Sysop alert>>>>delete 'em on sight.

-- Kyle (fordtbonly@aol.com), February 01, 2000.

I agree with Kyle, they should be deleted on sight. I don't know what's gotten into eve. Maybe she's pulling a "LadyLogic" or something. This post doesn't seem to serve any purpose except to draw the trolls here. Maybe it should be deleted.

-- (brett@miklos.org), February 01, 2000.

A major point here is that they're not all the same -- they're not all alike. There are some bad ones and some good ones.

I mean, really, do you guys feel that each and every one of them is bad?

For example: Ron Schwarz seems like a bad person; Patricia seems like a good person.

Porky,

Sorry I touched a nerve with you...Right about now, I'm getting close to considering starting my own group...(I think I'm 'bout to be run outta town after starting this thread, anyway)...but I'm afraid I'd be the only one, and I'd bore myself to tears within the first ten minutes... :-)

-- eve (123@4567.com), February 01, 2000.

Thanks for the warning.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), February 01, 2000.

If those people come here, I expect many people to leave this board. As most of you know ther are other Y2K boards that are moderated and require a password. Many of the long time participants of TB2000 are already registered on the other forums. The last thing we need on this board is more people who thrive on criticizing and insulting others.

-- Dave (dannco@hotmail.com), February 01, 2000.

Eve,

Speaking as a Sysop, *most* not all, of the DB crew are over here everyday anyway. Just using different names, for the most part. (Youd be surprised).

Y2K Pro continues his/her daily spam attacks. AndyRay is still banned for prior spamming and DOS attacks, although the name was taken off the red list. LadyLogic is NOT welcome back at this time, as are a couple other slow learners... the ones who dont get that its not what they said here, but how they spammed, that got them tossed from the TBY2K board (i.e. actions not words is what create the delete on sight policy for a few abusers. Their choice).

As late as last week, there is STILL a movement on their part to continue harassing MIT officials and Phillip Greenspun into CLOSING this bboard. You should see the press release AndyRay sent out about the forum the third week in January. He/she condescendingly coppied myself and Ed Yourdon on it.

Dont have a lot of patience with much of their harrassment and abuse tactics. You really have no idea.

For the civil among them, they have always been posting here. That hasnt changed.

Trolls and flammers... of ALL stripes... will continue to be deleted.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), February 01, 2000.

Eve, I know that you were sincere...but if they were nice people they wouldn't be posting or lurking at debunkers. That was a scary place, only looked once. Lurker 13

-- lurker 13 (lurker13@nowhere.here), February 01, 2000.

Thanks for all the efforts at keeping this place cleaned up, Diane!!

I just hope that eve's post doesn't make your job harder now. It's hard enough already!

-- (brett@miklos.org), February 01, 2000.

Eve;

I see where you're coming from -- the peacemaker's lot is never an easy one. And I'm sure you see yourself that there are, indeed, some over on "this" side who are just as rabid as some of those at DeBunkie's.

Either way, I personally don't think you deserve this degree if vitriol. Sluggo, Porky, why not save it for people like cpr (remember, the hotshot WORLD-CLASS REAL ESTATE SALESMAN who once said he was "keeping lists" of people over here for future use?)

-- I'm Here, I'm There (I'm Everywhere@so.beware), February 01, 2000.

Brett,

Trolls will come and go as they please...I'm sure they won't wait for an invitation.

Kyle,

And I'm also sorry that you didn't see anything worthwhile there.

To all,

Geez...I certainly saw some bad stuff there, but maybe overall I didn't read enough ...maybe if I read everything, most of it would be bad... Give me a break, ok, guys? I really meant well.

-- eve (123@4567.com), February 01, 2000.

Eve, this is just one example of the kind of rhetoric that's caused so much ill-will. The other Debunkers may not have used such crude language but the sentiment is very similar.

Well, little birdie told me to tune in here for the finale...sure is interesting and enlightening to see and read your post. To several of you, best wishes in the utmost; to others, well...just try to do the best you can. No ill will to anyone. Your post in total paint an interesting mosaic...with few surprises...that's why it is fitting for all of us with a life to move on...why tune in any more when you know the plot lines so well. CPR, Doc, Patricia, SmP, and many other regulars here...take good care. To the doomlits....BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!! (Wouldn't want to dissapoint 'ya --ESAD, Fuckheads!)...go back to your Fucking doom and gloom cult and have a go Fuck Yourself Orgy of censorship and group meme chants and hugs -- you pathetic shithead losers. BWAHAHAHAHAHAAH!!!!! IDIOTS!!! - Mr Polly 22:53:01 01/31/00 (2)

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), February 01, 2000.

Trolls will come and go as they please...I'm sure they won't wait for an invitation.

Some won't, but that doesn't excuse the fact that you're inviting them here. Maybe you did mean well, but at the very least you should apologize for not realizing what you were doing.

-- (brett@miklos.org), February 01, 2000.

Well, all,

After seeing Diane's post, as well as all the others, it looks like I've gotten in over my head this time.

Evidently, I jumped in and tried a "We are the World"/Kumbaya type thing when I had little experience with the matter.

So, I hereby withdraw my initial post and offer my sincere and humble apologies to everyone I may have offended. And I especially hope that I didn't put the forum at risk by my action.

My only remaining question is: Would it be better to retract this on a new thread?

-- eve (123@4567.com), February 01, 2000.

Eve,

I know you are trying to help. Thank you for your kind heart. Many, not all of them are simply not kind and caring people. They are hate spewers, but don't see it.

Oh well. Move on.

We expected this "flare up" when they announced their bboard was closing.

In a few days it may be over... Shift Happens.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), February 01, 2000.

Eve, you seemed to have meant well. Don't go just yet, Ok? I think the good people here outweight the bad so far. It boils down to this: Don't feed the trolls

-- Kyle (fordtbonly@aol.com), February 01, 2000.

BTW, LMAO (too@funny.here)... you TROLL here.

N'est-ce pas?

Get it? Read the guidelines.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), February 01, 2000.

Damned fingers insist on throwing in that 't' after 'gh'

-- Kyle (fordtbonly@aol.com), February 01, 2000.

Diane,

Feel free to delete this thread, or whatever you think is best.

Old Git, anon, et al -- Thanks for your input.

-- eve (123@4567.com), February 01, 2000.

Glad to see you thinking right again, eve. You had us worried there!!

-- (brett@miklos.org), February 01, 2000.

Brett,

It's not about "thinking" right or wrong. Who's to claim with any correctness what that is?

Eve has a kind heart. I honor her for trying to make peace. If the ones who troll here, cease to do so, and engage in a "conversation..." fine... it's kewl.

It's the trolling, spamming and flaming that are tossed. Simple, huh?

Duh. Buy a clue.

The thread can stand, Eve. People need to get it out of their system, so-to-speak.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), February 01, 2000.

--they are mostly sociopaths. There is ample evidence coming out now that there's a correlation between spammers, trolls and hackers-their obnoxious and ilegal use of the net-and sociopathic behavior in real, non-cyber life. Leopards don't change their spots. They are cyber- stalkers. Who knows what they do in their personal lives, but time after time there are stories in the press linking this sort of behavior with violent, vicious crimes. They are cowards. They must use anonymiser services to spread their filth. They hide behind the cry "censorship", but that cry has the same weight as a house breaker claiming their civil rights are violated by the homeowner fighting back the invasion. Don't be misled by hate disguised as the rhetoric of debate. They can't debate without using denial of service attacks, insults, name calling, posting of pornography from other sites onto sites that aren't designed for that, stealing the images in the meantime from those sites, etc. It's criminal activity, and who knows where the use of criminality ends with them? You want to take the chance?

Here's an easy to understand analogy:

This bulletin board is sort of like a group getting together in someone's home for a discussion group. It's for people who wish to discuss events-covering a wide range of topics-about the year 2000 problem, and related or maybe related events. The basic background that is assumed is that there will be problems, both before, during, and after the century date change. People who maintain in their beliefs that there are no problems are free to go discuss someplace else. this is known in advance. Fine, simple basic ground rules. any numbers of opinions will be encountered, basically one opinion per customer! Ha! Anyway, some of the "guests" decide to start swearing, hurling insults, engaging in obvious rude and inappropriate behavior. It's not that their views weren't heard, it's just that when everyone didn't lock step immediately agree with them, they got more and more and more aggressive until the host was forced by good sense and common decency toask them to leave. Instead of leaving, they stay, react violently and vulgarily. They are acting in an uncivilized manner. Now perhaps the authorities have been called, they might be enroute now, but until then, these insults continue. It's obvious by the reactions from the vast majority of people in the room that they want the disruptors to leave. but they stay, and continue their attacks. the disruptors are free to leave, free to go and discuss among themselves whatever they want, go create their own discussions,but they don't leave.

What is the appropriate response at that point? That's the question now. In real life, they would be escorted out the door physically. "Bounced" is the term commonly used. And hopefully after bounced the authorites will arrest them for trespassing at a minimum, and other charges might be appropriate. They have crossed the line from discussion in a civilized manner into criminal acts.

That's as simple as I can make it, it should be easy for anyone to understand, but watch who fails to understand, and think about what sort of "people" that they might be in real, non-cyber life. Would you trust them to baby sit your children? Would you trust them with the keys to your house while you were on vacation?

That should be easy to answer.

-- zog (zzoggy@yahoo.com), February 01, 2000.

If the ones who troll here, cease to do so, and engage in a "conversation..." fine... it's kewl.

Okay, Diane. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

-- (brett@miklos.org), February 01, 2000.

Eve...

You sound like such a sweet person. It's ok to be the peace-maker. I'm that way too. I did check out debunkers last week and was pretty much appalled. Everything there was personal, not one thing about Y2K. What stood out was a bunch of whining and bickering children. Rather scary I must say. But of course there are some nice people over there as well too, who I'm sure were just as disgusted with just how ugly things got. Don't listen to the bullies and hate-mongrels here (you know who you are). You do not need to apologise for being a good person. =o)

-- cin (cinlooo@aol.com), February 01, 2000.

Zog, great analogy, wish it was as easy to do on the net. Kyle

-- Kyle (fordtbonly@aol.com), February 01, 2000.

Also, Zog I think Y2K Pro's days are numbered. Could he be LL's good twin? Not saying much, huh?

-- Kyle (fordtbonly@aol.com), February 01, 2000.

Reposting my response from the originating thread below...

For the record, in my opinion eve deserves sincere thanks from both sides of the debate.

-------------------------------------

   Yeah they're real nice folks. 
   Why, just last night one of them dropped by, in: 
   http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002SpG 
   (sluggo)

To be fair, it seems there was a lot of anger from both sides in that thread, sluggo... There has been a lot of childish name calling and an increase in actual threats in the past couple days on both boards, which I find extremely dissapointing. It is possible to have open debate without resorting to this, and I hope that can happen. I don't know, maybe forums like this encourage that behaviour; It's like that situation in a heated conversation where you wish you had come back with a killer zinger, but didn't think of it in time? Well, this forum gives you the time to think of that zinger without having the mediative effects of seeing the person you're delivering it to. I have a feeling this makes people meaner in the virtual world than they would be if you met them in person.

Diane Squire posted a very sane rejoinder to you there, BTW, sluggo:

 Sluggo et. al., 
 Would you people please just STOP it!? 



 Take the anger elsewhere, Sluggo. You've done a fair amount of
 abuse  and harrassment, that is unacceptable anywhere on the net. 
 Look to your own actions. POT-KETTLE-BLACK. 



 Pretty tacky behavior on both ends of the spectrum. It doesn't  
 excuse *some* of the DeBunker spamming behavior, and it doesn't 
 excuse yours. 



 Chill. (And I thought you said goodbye to this board?) 



 Stay if you can find your manners. Leave if you can't. 



 Diane

--------------------------------------------

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), February 01, 2000.

cin,

Thank you so much for your kind and supportive words. And I especially appreciate them at a time like this.

Diane, I'm Here, I'm There, and Kyle

And thank you as well. I didn't forget y'all!

-- eve (123@4567.com), February 01, 2000.

eve,

It's a Mitzvah to bring peace to warring factions...you are blessed for your efforts...may 5760 and 5761 shower you and yours with Blessings!

-- ~~~~ (Losing it @ Lost it .com), February 01, 2000.

Haven't read all the answers here, but just wanted to comment on eve's passive-aggressive behavior. It's clear that this forum remains annoyed by the disruption of this group of debunkers, and has clearly invested a hell of alot of precious time trying to minimize their damage to this forum.

Our Sysops crews are volunteers. Eve, that means they don't get paid. Look at the degree of aggravation and personal attacks they have endured to try to minimize the damage caused by these debunkers.

The fact that you took it upon yourself to "invite" them to resume their cyber-terrorism here, then announce it in your condescending morality, is clinically termed "screwed up".

You have slapped in the face all the time and effort of the good people here who have been working above-and-beyond to maintain the standards of this forum...and you have the audacity to hide behind your arrogance.

Thanks, but no thanks.

-- Hokie (Hokie_@hotmail.com), February 01, 2000.

Hokie,

I appreciate your anger with me, and maybe in a way I deserved it. But I ask you to believe me -- you're assuming I knew more than I did. I really just had the best of intentions all the way through this. Halfway through this thread I realized that I had made a serious mistake. I admitted it and apologized. I don't know what else to do. I do know that if you really knew me, you wouldn't be saying those things. But that's ok -- here I guess I'm just another anonymous poster to you, and it's much harder to get to know people this way. I just hope that someday when the tension dies down you can find a place in you heart to forgive me.

-- eve (123@4567.com), February 01, 2000.

Naive eve. Trolls and disruptors don't belong here if they can't contribute something of substance - like facts and pertinent information. You have missed out on a lot of stuff "naive eve" and as far as I am concerned, the hatchet will never be buried. LL tried to shut this place down, shut Bok's chat room down and she was successful at shutting down Debunkers. It is a priviledge to participate in a forum that is orderly and not subject to harrassment. No one has a right to do that, and as long as they continue to disrupt, the hatchet will never be buried.

-- bardou (bardou@ballonney.xcom), February 01, 2000.

Eve, IMNSHO you were wrong when you classified Decker as a civil type. He has begun initial answers to posts of mine and others (ones full of ideas/concepts) with ad hom attacks. If Diane were to institute a "delete on sight" policy for him, it wouldn't bother me a bit.

www.y2ksafeminnesota.com

-- MinnesotaSmith (y2ksafeminnesota@hotmail.com), February 01, 2000.

Psst. Hey CensorOps. You left her *Sigh*ness' post. Can't have any EVIDENCE left, can we?

-- LMAO (too@funny.here), February 01, 2000.

Zog & Bardou, appreciate your excellent posts. IMHO, you have both expressed the thoughts of many here. Thanks.

-- Lurkess (Lurkess@Lurking.Net), February 01, 2000.

Eve - When strangers come to trash your house, rape your wife and laugh in your face every step of the way, they should not expect anything less than contempt and enmity in return. Some of the folks posting at DeBunkers are the epitome of Evil and accordingly are not welcome here. That you were unable to make this determination regarding their character speaks loudly for your naivette no matter how good your intentions.

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), February 01, 2000.

Eve, as you know, I have enjoyed some of your posts and have responded on those threads favorably. If you had been on this forum on Hallowe'en weekend, you would have become physically nauseas, which I did, at the degree of venom and disgusting language and sacrilegious incantations against us decent members of a civil forum. If there are archives (some of the language and substance had to be deleted, it was so vile!) denoting that weekend, a read would cure you of wishing such sick people back here.

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), February 01, 2000.

Hokie, you are coming down way too hard on Eve.That wasn't necessary. While her initial impulse wasn't was wise as it could be, she's apologized over and over in this thread and obviously now realizes where she went wrong on this. Give her some slack. Trolls will come in whether anyone invites them or not. Put that energy into dealing with them, not biting the head off someone who made some sincere efforts at making peace.

-- Firemouse (firemouse@fcmail.com), February 01, 2000.

Eve,

I've gotten home from work and finished reading the thread. I saw your apology and response to my observations.

I thought your attempt was an ego trip for you at other's expense, but did not assume you were aware of the potential consequences to the forum. But that is neither here nor there, because you have admitted that the potentially damaging consequences to the forum was an oversight.

Regardless, we would have driven the debunkers off again, and again if need be.

As for my forgiveness, really there is nothing to forgive. Perhaps you fell victim to foot-in-mouth disease, so welcome to the human race, and get used to standing in very long lines; enough said.

-- Hokie (Hokie_@hotmail.com), February 01, 2000.

Firemouse, LOL, you flame me because I posted prior to reading eve's apology. This is turning into one of those case studies in communication.

-- Hokie (Hokie_@hotmail.com), February 01, 2000.

Maybe I missed it but did Eve get a invite to Cherri's discussion forum?

There are many questions about why so little was impacted and how so much hype was believed. I would like to continue my forum (Year-Two-Thousand-y2k-interact-and-info) for those who would like to follow these questions and others with discussion. Again, I will not allow profanity or non relevant posts. Other than that, feel free to join in and give your views as to where things went right and how things were believed to be so potentially wrong.

I know there are people who are really tired of Y2k and would prefer never to hear that word again. I don't blame you, it has been a long difficult experience.

But if you would like to be involved in the search for answers just send a blank e-mail to the the address below with the subject box blank also to join. You can read the posts on the web, as they come out or in digest form.

year-two-thousand-subscribe@eGroups.com

Feel free to come and lurk if you ever feel like it.

http://www.egroups.com/group/year-two-thousand/

I hope we can work out some of the answers to what happened and why, considering the entire world was "impacted" by the belief they would be adversely impacted.

Thank You Cherri Stewart

http://www.egroups.com/group/year-two-thousand/

-- Cant we (all just@get.along?), February 01, 2000.

Eve had made six abject apologies already in this thread before your posting,Hokie. I just didn't feel she needed to crawl on any more broken glass when she'd made it perfectly clear at that point that she understood where she'd gone wrong.

Starting out with terms like "your condescending morality...clinically termed "screwed up"...slapped in the face...audacity...arrogance" was a bit hasty given that you hadn't read all the replies.

Thanks, but no thanks.

-- Firemouse (firemouse@fcmail.com), February 01, 2000.

wow, did I really say hate-mongrels? err..uh...I meant hate-mongers. DUH! And I thought I was perfect (joking, relax hawk) =oD

-- cin (cinlooo@aol.com), February 01, 2000.

Can't we,

Yes, Cherri did invite me. And I might check it out. Who knows...maybe I'll end up using them all. Anyway, thanks for the info.

Firemouse,

Thanks for your support.

-- eve (123@4567.com), February 02, 2000.

Elaine, Luna C, Minnesota,

Thanks for your helpful and civil posts. I appreciate your input.

-- eve (123@4567.com), February 02, 2000.

zog, Lurker 13, Diane, Kyle, brett,

I appreciate your input as well. I frequently learn something new when I hear from the other side -- especially when the message is civil. Thanks.

-- eve (123@4567.com), February 02, 2000.