--I'm very glad that we have this board for all this "yes it is/no it ain't" glitch and accident reports. It's collectively better than anything else out there on the web, bar none.

That's what's nice about this board, the sheer numbers of people who have "been there, done that" in any given field. I was curious about that "smelter/bag. what's a bag/why do they have bags in an explosive environment anyway" story since it was first posted. It's very hard for a non expert in these various fields to come to any sort of conclusion in assessing all these accident reports. Doomers look for verifiable(?) "failures"-weird, but true, and pollies always say that just about any failure anytime is "normal". Well,I,for one, am VERY concerned that all these industries have these "normal" accidents then, in these numbers. If these recently reported accidents in these numbers are "normal" it's a DISGRACE. And it's a disgrace that in times past there was little media coverage on the national level, too, same as what's happening currently

What's up with that noise? All these companies-according to the pollies-accept "normal" accidents all the time? Why the heck don't they pay the money and delegate the resources to make it more safe? Have to show a profit every quarter no-matter-what, and preventative maintenance and more intelligent engineering cost too much? Do they need to administer IQ tests to their employees and management? Is it no wonder that the awareness raised by y2k concerns is now spreading to a general awareness about how bad our infrastructure and manufacturing resources really are? Is it falling apart? Is their some projected time frame where at any given point more factories will be shut down from accidents than working? I just don't accept this level of "normal" accidents, it's a disgrace if true, and it's reprehensible if this is in reality y2k related in a lot of cases and it's being LIED about. Those managers and companies have a lot of explaining to do. It's time that there was a little more accountability in these faceless non human "entities" called "corporations". It's time malfeasance and corporate lying ended up with high level managers in JAIL. Fines and warnings DON'T CUT IT, IT HASN'T WORKED. "They" have gotten away with too much in the way of hurting people and the environment in the name of "higher profits". I could care less about some company's "stock" level if profits are being diverted away from safety and intelligent engineering and going to new mercedes, plush offices, "executive administrative assistant/mistresses" and business "trips" which are for the most part "vacations" and "perks" for high level management. I know I'm not the only one who smelled a rat last few years, and is continuuing to smell a rat. The lying is most likely going on, and if it's NOT lying-if this is "business as normal", it needs to CHANGE. The money is there already, it's being spent by the consumer for these products, the various companies receive it, just some of it needs to be diverted from these companies "non essential" luxury management and stock holder dividend spending back into making sure that they can operate in a safer and more responsible manner. They needbetter and more qualified engineers, not this other waste fof money. Don't we have just all sorts of tax payer funded legions of "inspectors" and "agencies", etc, who's job is to deal with this? What's up with that noise there, too? A wholesale shake up is in order, my opinion. Make HUMAN BEINGS accountable. Yes, OF COURSE, "stuff happens", there are legitimate unforseen accidents, but this level of "coincidences" and "normal" is UNACCEPTABLE. It is WAY past time that these corporations are allowed to get away with these "spin" stories. It's the private sector's equivalent of any embarrassing story out of the government being covered up under that catch all phrase of "national security". It's a lie in most instances. Liars should go to JAIL when they risk peoples safety, or they cover up the true nature of "accidents" or "shortages".

Sure, some "glitches" are of such a minor nature that it doesn't really matter, however, because there is no real accountability ANYWHERE in the corporate world, lying and "cover ups" and "normal" accidents are allowed to continue. There is zero clear cut line where you can say "well, such and such an accident doesn't threaten anything, but this one here does", because we NEVER know when the truth is being told. And that's because there are no penalties for lying, lying is acceptable, all levels, all areas. Well, that is unacceptable to me, and I bet to increasing numbers of the public, too.

What's going on right now is NOT business as usual in my opinion, but if it is, we are in much worse shape than I thought, much worse.

-- zog (zzoggy@yahoo.com), January 30, 2000

Answers

Seems to me that "stuff" will continue to happen, unless/until there is a collective consciousness on the part of the public that demands that it be changed. As you may recall, we went through a similar period at the beginning of the century (whoops! I mean the last century) when food-processing plants and slaughterhouses were so unsanitary. It took a great deal of "muck-raking" journalism to make the public aware of the fact that their sausages and hamburgers had so many rats and cockroaches ground into the mixture ... at which point, public pressure escalated to the point where we ended up with our beloved Food & Drug Administration.

I think that one of the problems now is that the government is just as bad as the corporations when it comes to covering up the consequences of "business as usual." I assume you saw the headlines yesterday, where the fed gov't finally admitted that many thousands of workers were exposed to potentially dangerous radiation levels in nuclear plants, after strenuously denying such a possibility fo

-- Ed Yourdon (ed@yourdon.com), January 30, 2000.

Look, lying about business and lying about mistresses are now considered normal and acceptable in the executive suite.

Bill Clinton got away with it--the lesson has been learned.

-- cgbg jr (cgbgjr@webtv.net), January 30, 2000.

I for one worked in a large Nuclear reactor and saw first hand the coverups on a weekly basis. anybody who said anything about them was downsized rapidly, and not just them but any relatives also working there. That was a lot of incentive to keep quiet and stay employed. I got outta there after watching and wondering if anyone was really in total control.

-- Porky (Porky@in.cellblockD), January 30, 2000.

"...a large Nuclear reactor and saw first hand the coverups on a weekly basis. anybody who said anything about them was downsized rapidly, and not just them but any relatives also working there."

Yep. This is the bottom line, not just for nuke shops, but all around the industry, as far as I can tell. Ed Yourdon, I sincerely hope that your forecast about whistle blowers going public comes true, but right now, everyone I know (and I'll include myself) is too scared about job security. Speaking strictly for myself, I still don't think that a recession/depression scenario is impossible here in the US, and I'll be among the first to be down-sized if it becomes necessary at my company. I don't need to give them any reasons to terminate my job, which I know will happen with a few of the young punks whom nobody likes but we have to have up in customer service right now.

-- (nowawake@myhouse.com), January 30, 2000.

Y2K Pro,

I've read your posts for months. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why one individual would spend so much time documenting every single 'misdirected prediction' made by the members of this forum.

Psychology texts would have a good deal to contribute toward your, shall we say, need to prove others wrong. For goodness sake, get a life! Or, better yet, MOVE ON!

-- TruthSeeker (truthseeker@ seektruth.always), January 30, 2000.

--y2k troll pro, if you check, some of these things have happened. recent revelations about the true nature of the WACO massacre. Recent announcements of various dot mil orgs being sent overseas, to bosnia, what for, I have no idea "peacekeeping" is a nice gov spin word. There has been a high ranking official lost in a mysterious plane crash, down in central america, as reported on this board couple of weeks ago. We've had official "warnings" about the re-breakout of "west nile-like" virus in the spring when the weather warms up. You know, the stuff that kills people and birds. Nothing big, it just kills them dead, so the government is already sprayed malathion over the population and area at large up in new york. Ho hum, nothing big. The king has announced rather draconian new "gun" and "ammo" edicts, edicts that go way beyond apparent good sense, and go into obvious steps towards the eventual full registration and then confiscation of firearms in private citizens hands. He's also let chinese generals and spies go touring around our sensitive facilities, and want's more co-operation with a regime which has publically declared that war with the US is "inevitable". I could go on and answer all of the points with examples, but the bottom line is that you are a troll, a repeat offender, and I stand by what I said, and your continual posting on this board after you have been asked to leave by the system operators is criminal. It's the cyber equivalent of home invasion. Hopefully internet law will progress to the point that people such as you wind up in court, with the appropriate sentence or fine or whatever society eventually decides is appropriate for this boorish behavior. "Boorish" is the politiest term I will use. You are a "stalker" in the cyber sense. It's wrong. It's vulgar. You start your posts with insults. You have nothing to contribute beyond trolling. Now, I've answered your post, now go away, not on my wishes, but by the wishes of the people who are the legitimate operators of this board, with the full understanding of the owner and payer of this board and it's costs. You've been asked politely many, many times. Any rational person would take this as a "clue". The internet is huge, there are many places to visit and contribute, or you may construct your own site, present your views there. It's even free--all you have to do is sign up at any number of free sites, and html code at will. Go have fun. Build a site. Rant there all you want about me or anything I've written, I have no problem with that, it's just that here you are no longer welcome. That's a "reality". That's a "verified" fact. It's written in english on the main "add a post" page guidelines. Read it. Accept it. If I am asked to leave this site by the administrators I will leave. That's the rules, I accept them. You should too.

-- zog (zzoggy@yahoo.com), January 30, 2000.

If my description in "I, Troll" ever fit anyone, it is "Y2K Pro".

He is the consumate, textbook troll.


-- Steve Baxter (chicoqh@home.com), January 30, 2000.

Yes--Zog for President!!!!

Those predictions line up pretty much with my thinking also. Keep up the great posts Zog. Many of us appreciate and read everything you post! :-)

-- (I Believe (Repent@time is now.com)), January 30, 2000.

Your concerns are legitimate. I think some failures may be due to PM that was postponed doing Y2K upgrades. I lost power for a couple hours January 6 when a high voltage powerline insulstor broke allowing it to drop onto a lower voltage line below it which backfed to the substation and blew out some fuses. The utility had spent the year working overtime to replace some 2000 noncompliant devices. Insulator replacement was probably one of those things they postponed to reach compliance.

These spillls, ruptures, etc. may be the result of postponed PM. Financial managment often does not know how critical these things are. We need to give maintenance departments a couple more months to get caught up. I'm hoping these failures drop off come Spring.

-- John (LITTMANNJ@AOL.COM), January 30, 2000.

There is NO such Thing as an Accident!!!!

-- Liberator (Feeding@The Trough.com), January 30, 2000.

Why anyone woulk take me seriously is beyond me.

-- Y2K Pro (y2kpro1@hotmail.com)

-- ~***~ (~***~@earth.ebe), January 30, 2000.

Just read the intro, not answers yet, but had to take a minute to applaud Zog for the no-nonsense and moral commentary which I have come to expect from him.

Good call Zog; keep it coming!

-- Hokie (Hokie_@hotmail.com), January 30, 2000.