Let's be honest, people!

If you're going to throw around terms like "social engineering," at least understand that nearly EVERYTHING in the public realm could be considered some form of social engineering in some way.

Being fair, examples of so-called "social engineering" can be found in almost every aspect of daily life, including alcohol policies, car-stereo laws, gun-control laws, zoning codes, corporate welfare practices, school district curriculums, abortion laws, architectural design guidelines, traffic laws, etc. etc.

So when you say that mass transit is ALSO a form of social engineering, it pales by comparison to existing forms. There are simply far too many social engineering practices already in place in today's society.

And who's to say that one is better or worse than another? Answer: we do. Through the ballot box. So if you don't like social engineering, than perhaps you should also work to remove all of the OTHER social engineering practices that already exist today, beginning with television and then your school district's curriculum.

Oh, what's that you say? You LIKE television and your school district's curriculum? Well, then it seems that your target isn't "social engineering" after all, is it? It's particular FORMS of social engineering, right?

Well then, get specific and stay on topic. Because if you truely were against ALL social engineering, you'd also have to be against nearly every practice in the public realm. And that seems a tad like chronic anti-social behavior to me! There's places for people like this: Namely, the back woods of Idaho. I hear there's always room there for another cabin-dweller hermit.

-- Common Sense (1@hotmail.com), January 27, 2000

Answers

Please let this rather elderly engineer make a strong protest against the use of the phrase "social engineering" that appears so frequently in these transmittals. Historically, the practice of engineering requres the use of logic, common sense, and the UNBIASED application of the scientific method to arrive at a conclusion. "Social Engineering" is primarily dependent on the "if it feels good it must be right" approach of the dedicated liberal, and is usually the very antithesis of real engineering. And it almost always results in an increase of government power over the individual; witness Prohibition, the 1-1/2 gallon flush toilet, the 55 mph speed limit, etc. etc. etc. ad finitum. So plese can we say "social experimentation" instead? Thanks.

-- Albert Fosha (AFosha@aol.com), January 27, 2000.

Let this rather elderly person of science take issue with the term social experimentation. Experimentation requires a testable hypothesis, an experimental design that permits the test to be made, objective results that are then assessed against a valid statistical analysis against a predetermined probability for accepting and rejecting the null hypothesis. NONE OF THESE THINGS ARE DONE BY THE "Social Engineers."

These people have a blind philosophical adherence to their doctrine, akin to the blind faith practiced by some primitive religions. It is, I believe, what passes for religion among many liberals. To them, this is RIGHT, they have neither desire nor need to submit it to an experimental design that would prove or disprove it's effectiveness.

They are followers of the religion of transit. Not experimenters.

-- (craigcar@crosswinds.net), January 27, 2000.

Craig, I gotta agree with you. I guess I was looking at it from too narrow of a perspective.

Now, one question. What should it be called? We agree that neither the word "engineering" or "experimentation" is accurate here. so what can we use to describe the vaporous meanderings of the liberal set? Maybe just agree that the term "social" stuck in front of anything renders the following word meaningless?

-- Albert Fosha (AFosha@ aol.com), January 27, 2000.

Dear Junque Sighense (CS)Highways are NOT social engineering. Of course no one will ever convince you of that because your thoughts are set in stone.. Makes no difference that your thoughts are ridiculous.. Highways, roads, paths, trails have always been the threads that tie communities to one another and helpful guides so people can get from one place to the next. Heck they are even developed and maintained by ANIMALS so they can get easily to the places the want to go.

Are ANIMALS guilty of social engineering?

The only time SOCIAL ENGINEERING comes into the picture is when extremely petty people like you and the government decide to discriminate against a certain portion of the population and dictate the 'this' segment be forbidden to use 'this' portion of the highway system. You wear your hatred on your sleeve for all the world to see.

People like you said, "Okay all you Chinamen you can build the railroad but you can't ride on the train." And now the Automobile Owners have become the outcasts. The ones who foot the bill for the highways and the byways and are forbidden to tred the same pathways of the elite.

Maybe we SHOULD all move to the backwoods of Idaho and leave you snivelling freaks here all by yourselves to wonder wher your are going to be able to get all the money to pamper yourselves with when the gravy-train deserts you.

Ever think about that pea-brain??

-- maddjak (maddjak@hotmail.com), January 27, 2000.

Albert, You state it yourself..you are an 'older engineer' Well engineering, just like many other honorable professions has been polluted and the title doesn't have the same meaning any more. The modern day engineers work with special tools like government grants and special dispensations and may not even know what a drafting board or slide rule is. Yes they just may be 'social engineers'

-- maddjak (maddjak@hotmail.com), January 27, 2000.

>". . .and dictate the 'this' segment be forbidden to use 'this' portion of the highway system. . . "

Huh? I don't recall ever making such a statement. Perhaps you're thinking of someone else?

-- Common Sense (1@hotmail.com), January 27, 2000.

"slide rule " Two or more pieces of wood (later versions were plastic or aluminum) with markings at intervals corresponding to logarithmic representations of the magnitude of the numbers. By adding and subtracting the logarithms, it was possible to multiply and divide to two digit (and a WAG) accuracy. Later versions added separate scales for geometric and trigonometric functions.

Just a working definition for anyone out there TOO DUMB TO LOOK IT UP IN THE DICTIONARY, TOO ARROGANT to trust maddjak, AND TOO NARCISSISTIC to believe that information exists that he doesn't already comprehend. But we won't name names, will we ;-)

zowie

-- (zowie@hotmail.com), January 27, 2000.

DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

When an HOV lane or bus lane is built or designated then the people driving in the SOVs are being discriminated against therefore: this segment of the population is FORBIDDEN from using 'This' segment of the highway system.

I guess I just got a little too deep for you

-- maddjak (maddjak@hotmail.com), January 27, 2000.

Again, you're obviously mistaking me for someone else.

I just re-read my origional posting above, and I can tell you that I didn't make statements about HOV's and SOV's that you seem to think I have. Perhaps you are venting a conversation you recently had with someone else? To use your words: "DUUUHHHHHH!"

-- Common Sense (1@hotmail.com), January 28, 2000.

Junque Sighense "I just re-read my origional posting above, and I can tell you that I didn't make statements about HOV's and SOV's that you seem to think I have. Perhaps you are venting a conversation you recently had with someone else? To use your words: "DUUUHHHHHH!"

It makes no difference what you say about HOV lanes..The simple existance and use of HOV is discrimination You are just too ignorant to understand that

-- maddjak (maddjak@hotmail.com), January 28, 2000.