OT - - What Would the World be Lke if We Obeyed God's Laws?

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Have you ever considered what our world would be like if God's Laws (not suggestions) were obeyed?:

No gods made of material things

No venereal disease

No children born out of wedlock (necessitating many young people quitting school - - with the young fathers being tracked down for child support)

No insurance for other than natural disasters and life and no locks

No infidels not caring for their own

No divorce unless the partner commits adultery or fornication (which wouldn't happen if God's laws were obeyed)

No abused wives, husbands or children ('love your wife as yourself' and 'provoke not your children to wrath')

No disrespect of husbands by their wives ('see that you respect your husband' and 'prefer him' over any other man

Few in-law problems, with each marital partner cleaving to the other, and the in-laws, while honored as parents, would be in their proper places

No elderly parents in places they don't want to be

No killing, therefore fewer people in prison (These people could be out supporting their families (with the sweat of their brows) and the taxpayers saving a BUNDLE of money

No people in prison for drug abuse, because each one would treat his/her body as the temple of God; ditto drunkenness

Fewer people injured and hospitalized as a result of the above

No overweight, because no one would be a glutton

No hungry neighbors

No keeping up with the Joneses, nor the Rockefellers

No lying under oath, or any other lying

No reputations ruined by untruths being told

Fewer (if any) lawsuits, since believers are not to go to law against a Christian brother/sister

No flaming on the Internet ('Speak the truth in love")

No thinking more highly of ourselves than we ought (thereby reducing a lot of pontificating done on this and other 'fora')

Would it be boring? I don't think a warm and loving and productive life with parents, children and grandparents (and neighbors) supporting, respecting and helping each other would be boring, but even if it were relatively quiet, it would be preferable to what our present society has become (which is just short of Chaos.)

I know this won't happen until the REAL millennial return of Christ (date unknown) but I can dream, can't I?

On an earlier thread, someone had a subject "Freedom is NOT License". Concerning that, we had a Pastor who used to say that marriage should be like driving - - no practicing without a license!

I forgot in the above list the following which could also be reduced, if not eliminated: Heart Disease Cancer Most other diseases "...none of these diseases..." (I forget these references from the Bible - - perhaps others can help provide them.)

None of the above will save us from our sins, of course. Onlt the atoning blood of Christ can do that; but God does prefer obedience to sacrifice, especially the sacrifice of 'dirty rags'...(good works).

I was also thinking that we Christians should be praying for Ed Yourdon and his family and all of the other people who put their careers and reputations on the line to warn the rest of us of the possibilities. He is an honorable man. Not perfect, but honorable.

In Christ

-- Connie iversen (hive@gte.net), January 24, 2000

Answers

I know your post is well intended...but have you ever considered what the world would be like if Christians respected other people's beliefs? We were born with a free will--who gave us that? Just a thought.

-- Dee (T1Colt556@aol.com), January 24, 2000.

The fact is, we didn't make the rules. AND, there's hardly a person alive, from athiest to pastor, who doesn't agree that the world would be much better under the conditions listed above.

I know I'd like a world with no locks and no guns, and no need for either.

Kook

-- Y2Kook (Y2Kook@usa.net), January 24, 2000.


I forgot debt and usury. "Owe no man anything but to love him'; and 'Lend but do not borrow'.

To Dee:

Yes, and no one was brought up in a more freedom-demanding, self expressing, home than I did. My dad was not only a liberal, he was a Norman-Thomas-voting socialist. My mom's mother thought Franklin Roosevelt was almost a god. And women were definitely equal, if not moreso! ;-) ;-)

Fortunately, I was saved out of that agnostic background.

The Scriptures say 'Let the Redeemed of the Lord say so', and 'Go into all the world and preach the Gospel, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit'. As my son says: "This is a gift of God, not a ton of bricks!".

May I respectfully ask if you would warn someone of any impending danger to prevent his harm?...(such as Y2K?) Are the ones who don't want to hear it, happy to hear it?

I truly don't want to offend anyone, but as the Scriptures say: " The Gospel is an offense to those who are dying".

Am I offensive?...I know Christians are 'a peculiar people' (the Bible says of its own).. but I hope not offensive, truly. The Gospel itself is irritating to people who want to continue ignoring God.

Please - - have you read it yourself? Sometimes people who haven't read it misjudge it. If, after you've read it, you can then say it's of no consequence, at least you will have added to your education. In former times, a person was not considered educated unless he/she had studied the Bible and Shakespeare's works.

-- Connie Iversen (hive@gte.net), January 24, 2000.


this is totally OT. get ready for all the flaming connie--as nice a thought as this is--it is a dangerous topic. folks are pretty energetic in their attacks these days for some reason.

i think acknowledging the existence of god is a good thing in society because it "can" foster accountability. it "can" raise the bar on behavior.

i happen to be a christian. however, i think the the reality is that no human can ever stick to the "laws" and we should not focus on "trying to be better people". we are too flawed, we happen to have a corrupt human nature. we see it in the microcosm now--those who say they believe in religious laws are constantly breaking them and doing evil/less than optimum things to one another and to themselves.

a person has to have a totally new nature and that comes from being "reborn" into God's family-- however, that is not enough. it is only the start. it is only when we soak ourselves in Christ and in His Word (sort of like osmosis) and then choose to ACT on what we are hearing/reading (regardless of how painful it is to obey) that GOD CHANGES our character--we don't have to do it, it just happens. We gradually become a mirror that reflects God's (Christ's) character and glory. Unfortunately such a small number of people (Christians) are willing to take these steps--hence we have alot of carnal Christians that believe in christ yet live no differently than the world.

God wants to refine us as Gold. He doesn't want us to be 14K gold- plated--he wants to make us solid gold and that is a "hot" and long refining process. one involving commitment.

-- tt (cuddluppy@aol.com), January 24, 2000.


Yes, cuddluppy, I know I might be criticized! But our Lord was hung on a cross for giving the same message.

I didn't say we could master all of this. I certainly don't, as I'm a work in progress and God isn't finished with me yet!

But ALL of it is what God has said we SHOULD do, so I suppose he thinks there is the possibility that we can do it.

Thank you for your input. A lot of what is put on this forum is OT, so I thought I could pose the question. Ed is saving us money for therapy! ( ;-) )

Also, in my first sentence to you in the other post, I see where I should have said: "...home than I WAS..." not, "than I DID...".

-- Connie (hive@gte.net), January 24, 2000.



even more OT than your post, connie, i truly am looking forward to the 1) rapture, 2) millenium, and 3) eternity. i have heard some incredible teaching on these subjects lately and i am READY TO GO....

-- tt (cuddluppy@aol.com), January 24, 2000.

Connie-I know you have good intentions, but I am sure there are atheists who live a life of love and goodness, who contribute to charity, etc-and I know the typical christian response is "you are not judged for your works....", BUT the bible is NOT the only repository of moral behavior, and many of its precepts do not apply in many cultures around the world-I especially have a problem with this:

"No disrespect of husbands by their wives ('see that you respect your husband' and 'prefer him' over any other man"

And I am a man-Respect is earned by behavior conducive to respect-and to respect one's husband simply because they are a man and according to this phrase "deserves" respect is ludicrous. BTW, what is the divorce rate, what is the rate of domestic violence in households where this type of "respect" is observed-How many women stay in abusive marriages because they naively believe in what they think the bible is saying?? I know there are no hard facts, but there is plenty of evidence of widespread abuse in these type of situations. I am sorry this is true, but I think it is bad advise to tell any women that she must respect her husband simply because he is the husband.

-- futureshock (gray@matter.com), January 24, 2000.


I am a Christian as well. This response is to other Christians just to make a point or two. Even Christians have their opinions. I know Christians that claim to be Christians but don't believe Christ will rule and reign on earth sometime in the future. They also see no signs of his coming. How can this be? I also know Christians that believe in the theory of evolution. Again, how can this be? I quit a church because I got tired of all the gossip. I came home depressed. Now I know I'm not perfect, but these things aren't adding up to me. I can't identify with Christianity anymore.

Speaking hypothetical, if everybody obeyed God's Laws we could have some other problems. Would radio and TV be approved? Technology (especially computers) probably wouldn't exist because it takes jobs away from others. Is that God's will to take somebody's job away? That person could be a uneducated mother supporting kids on her salary.

The Bible states that to him that knoweth to do good and not doeth good, to him it is sin. You can take that to mean watching TV is a sin because you should be out preaching the gospel. So we have a very broad commandment. With technology, many of use aren't sure what is right and what is wrong anymore. Is cloning ok? Are transplants ok? Abortion, even though you've been raped? Work for a bank that charge huge interest amounts on credit cards (21% come on, usary big time)? Driving a car to work (you're contributing to polluting this earth, this is being wasteful and indulging to get right down to it)? We kill our environment and think nothing of it. Isn't this sin? I could go on and on. Nobody can say they are without sin.

The bottom line is we truly live in a different world than when it was 2000 years ago. I don't care what the preachers say, it isn't the same. All we can do is try our best to be honorable and love others. Mankind will sin in this day and age. There is no way around it. We are saved only by the grace of God, not by works.

-- Larry (cobol.programmer@usa.net), January 24, 2000.


Futureshock

Good point, just not included in my listing. If a woman followed the Bible, she would have to stay married regardless of her situation. I'm sorry, but I do disagree with the Bible on this one. I say get divorced regardless of the situation if you're unhappy. Life wouldn't be worth living even if kids are involved. God also gave us a mind to think and make rational choices. I don't think he feels that a woman should die needlessly just because the husband is abusive. How is this positive? How is the marriage positive? You should disobey the commandments if it comes down to it. What needs judging should be left to the man upstairs when the time comes.

-- Larry (cobol.programmer@usa.net), January 24, 2000.


I never said if I was a Christian or not...I simply posed the question since dispute over religion has been the cause of many wars. Food for thought nothing more.

I am happy for anyone who finds solace in their own spiritual path. =)

-- Dee (T1Colt556@aol.com), January 24, 2000.



Larry said:

"If a woman followed the Bible, she would have to stay married regardless of her situation. I'm sorry, but I do disagree with the Bible on this one."

Ah, but this is a common misunderstanding... and is not true. There ARE biblical grounds for divorce, regardless of gender.

-- Phil Morris (patrickhenry7@hotmail.com), January 24, 2000.


PS - My question was not intended to be a flame...just a question.

Now, I must move on from this topic since my interest in this forum is for information, not salvation. But thank you for your kind response Connie.

Respectufully, ~Dee =)

-- Dee (T1Colt556@aol.com), January 24, 2000.


Oh...excuse me the exception being adultry... big hairy deal. And it's very unclear whether you can remarry, unless the spouse dies. The bottom line is that you don't have much of a choice but to stay married, that is if you want to have sex.

This thought brings me to another point. Only married people are allowed to have sex according to the Bible, otherwise you're fornicating. We now have birth control. They didn't have it 2000 years ago.

So now what? Let's see, the divorce rate is 50% now. You can lose practically everything especially (usually, not offending any ladies because each case is different. I'm sure ladies get the short end too) if you're a guy, get married and she decides to divorce you. So, you decide not to get married at this time, but in the mean time you have hormones raging and all your friends are having fun. You're looking gay by refusing to go to bed with anybody. Even your parents are thinking this. Has it happened. Yes, to me. For years, but not anymore. I fornicate now. Not proud, but it beats not getting anything and looking gay.

Other Christains don't touch my points. They get upset on Biblical interpretations. But you see, nothing is solved by getting upset. Many don't want to discuss it, because I'll bet they're doing something behind close doors too.

-- Larry (cobol.programmer@usa.net), January 24, 2000.


Connie,

You paint a great picture of the Millenial Rule. Of course it's impossible for mankind on his own to adopt and practice the Laws of God (as Ancient Israel proved), it takes a repentant heart and the Spirit of God to make that picture you paint a reality. It will take God Himself to allow mankind to bring himself to utter ruin before our rebellious natures as a species will be willing to be taught the Precepts of the Almighty. But it's definitely worth looking forward to! All religions (including Christianity) is in for a BIG surprise when the truth of God and the Redemption of man is revealed to all.

Dee,

One of the big roots of mankind's historical problems IS myriad belief-systems of who and what God is, and the intrusion and forced acceptance of such beliefs. ALL belief-systems on this planet are guilty of such. Wars have been started and holocausts abound as a result of "spreading" one religion or another.

True, we are FREE MORAL AGENTS. We have choices as to which nature we will follow. The nature of man, or the Divine nature. I think we have a good long bloody 6,000 year written history of man's nature. Man's natural state is one of strife, greed, jealousy, betrayal, envy, selfishness and anger. Love and peace are not natural to us. This leaves a nature which is not natural to man...a Divine nature which must be accepted BY CHOICE and practiced in order to enjoy the blessings of following such a belief-system.

Love and peace and Moral Law comes from an outside Source, not from within man. Morality comes from God Himself, whether you believe it or not. The Morality encoded in the Ten Commandments is embraced (in the doctrinal sense) by Judaism, Christianity and Islam. All three Major Religions' moral code is derrived from ONE source. The SAME source: The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

To be blunt, Morality comes from God, not from man. We have no knowledge of morality outside of the Divine Instruction.

Man naturally worships the self, and the imaginations of his own mind...which has been proven by our own miserable history as a species to be filled with sorrow, death and suffering. Darwinism, or survival of the fittest. If the Morality from God doesn't exist, why can't we chop off our neighbor's head for snoring? We are animals after all. Why do we refrain the animalistic impulses we feel each day? We know nothing of giving selflessly unless it is to obtain personal gain or comfort.

This is not to say those who are not practicing Jews, Christians or Muslims have no sense of morality. There is both good and evil in the world. Islam, Judaism and Christianity have a history of violence and blood. This is due to the bastardization of and replacement of the pure doctrinal laws of these religions. They are influenced by the nature of man, as well as any pagan or agnostic religion.

But the Moral Law remains. Eastern Cultures have been influenced by the Moral Law given to us. There are spiritual principles that create physical blessings for keeping the Moral Law...and these are evident by others (fruits they are scripturally called). They have been adopted by many other belief-systems and used to promote their own prosperity...whether they believe in the God of the Old Testament or not. There are blessings that come from keeping the Moral Law.

And again, morality is defined by the Creator, and encoded in the 10 Commandments. It exists in NO OTHER form, but adopted by others to receive the fruits of keeping a spiritual code of behavior.

We are free agents of choice, and choosing the Nature of God is tough when we are consumed with the selfish pull of our own desires, and those we are surrounded with. Christianity has no more forced acceptance of it's beliefs than Muslims, Buddists, Shintoists, Pagans and Humanists have throughout history. The whole of mankind has been deceived and one day man will get a huge wake-up call.

Futureshock,

Have to disagree with you. MANY cultures have arranged marriages and structure their cultures around a Patriarchal system that works well. In the religious-sense, Islam, Judaism and Christianity espouse the woman SUBMITTING to the man in Marriage, who is charged with LOVING and CARING for his wife as his own self. These instructions are found in the Koran as well as the Old and New Testaments of the Bible.

When one enters into a covenant of marriage, it is a solemn and serious contract to LOVE one another. And yes, respect is earned...but not when the structure of a marriage is altered. Not when the roles are blurred or skewed. The man was designated to be the head of the wife, the caregiver and provider IN LOVE, not to lord over them in tyranny...that is not love. Only is the West, and cultures that have embraced the modern Western notion of an "equal partnership" in marriage, and the Feminist ideologies that follow, do we see the divorce-rate at the levels we do. You do not find divorce in the Islamic faith as you do in Westernized religions that have watered-down their doctrines to accept the precepts of Humanism and Feminism.

If all faiths followed their doctrines of Marriage, and men loved their wives as they are instructed, women would have never sought the need to escape the family for work or safety, and choose a career over raising a family. Men would be happy in their roles, and women in their God-given roles. There would be little confusion, and almost no breakdown of our current society's morality.

I know this won't sit well with our current Moral Relativism that just about everyone now embraces...but that's too bad. I've seen the fruits of both and willingly choose my old-fashioned, out-dated, chauvenistic, intolerant belief of marriage roles as defined by scripture.

My wife and I have a happy and fulfilled marriage as a result.



-- Just Sharing (Takit@rlee.vit), January 24, 2000.


Oh, my! I had to go get my granddaughter and shop a little so I'm behind here!

Ah, Kook! Guns! I did forget guns, 'cause God doesn't mention them... BUT He did say: "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword"... I think we can extrapolate and say: "He who lives by the gun shall die by the gun"... so I don't own one. During the Gulf War, I thought it would be O.K. for an unbeliever to do Saddam in, but not for a Christian. If I were conscripted, I would be willing tobe a medic or Chaplain, but I would not kill anyone. And I certainly don't think all of those innocent bystanders should have had to die. War is the result of greed, according to the NT. BUT, I DO believe in the right to bear arms, and I do have two sons who hunt.

However, had the framers of the Constitution known what weapons we'd develop, do you think they might have put a few restrictions on the bearing of arms? I often say we should be able to own the weapons that were in existence at the time of the writing of the Constitution - - what were they?: pistols, not Uzis, and cannons, not atomic bombs

Dee: i know there are atheists who do good works and are polite, and that makes for pleasant associations which I wouldn't mind everyone emulating.

In fact, my question is for eveyone, not just believers.

Futureshock: (and Phil Morris) If a husband loves his wifeas himself, and nurtures her the same way he nurtures himself, will it be easy for his wife to respect and prefer him? The only allowable reason for divorce AND REMARRIAGE in the NT is infidelity. No woman should stay with a man who abuses her or the children, but should insist that he get counseling. Remarriage is not an option, but God is merciful if people make wrong decisions, if they are repentant or didn't know it was wrong.

Besides, if everyone were obeying God's Laws, there would be no infidelity and no abuse; a husband would love his wife as himself (which is what she needs most) and a wife would respect and prefer her husband (which he needs most).

This is a 'what if?' rhetorical question, anyway.

I agree with the posters who say salvation by accepting Christ is the only way and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit is how we learn what God wants of us, and that good works will not be equated with faith; but James DID say: "You show me your faith and I'll show you my works". Another verse says: "Faith without works is dead"...

And in Ephesians, where the most quoted verse is concerning faith and grace is,:

Ephesians 2: 8&9

For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, lest anyone should boast,... goes on to say that we were foreordained to walk in good works.

Larry: Of all people, Christians should behave this way, should we not? It is a shame if they don't. It makes a laughingstock of Christianity (case in point: our president, carrying his Bible in and out of churches for photo-ops); of the Church (Body of Christ) and deters people because of the hypocrisy.

Another thing that should be added is a poison in our present day culture. The Pro-Life people have chosen a great verse as their motto, and here it is:

Deuteronomy 30:19

I(God) call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (god) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therfore, CHOOSE LIFE, THAT BOTH YOU AND YOUR SEED may live. (Emphasis mine).

Verses 15 through 20 are good also.

Dee: Yes, the Creator has given us free will. Freedom to choose His way or our way. Nothing is more resticting than disobeying God and reaping the consequences.

Larry: Yes, we are to be good stewards of the earh that God gave us. I sort of view our modern inventions as a kind of 'Tower of Babel' that God is allowing to continue until some future time when he will bring it down (or let us bring it down ourselves). man/womankind has outsmarted him/herself. That's why I thought that Y2k might be His judgement. But He answered our prayers, because neither 'Doomers' or 'Pollies' wanted it to be bad - -did we?

I'm going to have to stop for now, (aren't you glad?) because my granddaughter has to make a 'phone call.

Thank you all for responding!

-- Connie Iversen (hive@gte.net), January 24, 2000.



Let's see, God's laws... according to the Old Testament, if my maid runs away, I, as her owner, can nail her to the doorpost when I get her back. Yup, sounds good to me...

-- Dzog (dzog@plasticine.com), January 24, 2000.

Nuke Sodom and Gomorrah -- Oh, wait, "he/she/it" can do that, but you can't. "God's Law" depends on who does the interpreting. Anything that makes sense doesn't need the cachet. Anything that doesn't, should be ignored. Go thump your fricking bibles somewhere else.

-- A (A@AisA.com), January 24, 2000.

Connie,

I would like to retract my original post...what I really meant to say was, what would the world be like if everyone (not just Christians) repected other people's beliefs. I have often wondered how this would impact our world. I have been trained to have a 360 degree viewpoint, so it comes natural for me to look at all aspects.

The world you envision would certainly be a wonderful one, Connie. It was not my intention to diffuse that vision for you. I think it is wonderful to hold onto visions or dreams that bring one joy.

Also, Just Sharing - I appreciate your post. You made some good points and your discourse was quite eloquent.

Now...like I said...I must move away from this topic and will not be checking back to this post. I must stay on task. I just wanted to clarify my original post, I felt I needed to do that.

Best wishes to all!

Respectfully, ~Dee

-- Dee (T1Colt556@aol.com), January 24, 2000.


The world would be a peaceful place if everyone was the same, but you have you understand that unformity ALONE would make it peaceful. The actual specifics of the laws that everyone agreed to follow would be completely irrelevant.

The world would be peaceful if everyone was a Christian.

The world would be peaceful if everyone was a Muslim.

The world would be peaceful if everyone was an Atheist.

The world would be peaceful if everyone was a murderer, a rapist, and enjoyed stealing candy from babies.

The world would be peaceful if EVERYONE WAS THE SAME.

But the world isn't like that. Everyone is not the same, and nearly all of the conflict in the world can be blamed on people just being different.

Take murder for example (as above) - the vast majority of people believe that murder is wrong (or rather it is wrong to be murdered - cynical? Moi?), and a minority don't. The existence of the minority, and the fear of the majority make the world a violent & unhappy place. But what if the situation was reversed? What if we all decided that it was OK to kill other people and as a result just agreed to take our chances (If you were murdered it would be because you weren't vigilant enough, and everyone would just accept that [including yourself if you were still alive]. From our perspective this would be a violent society, but from their perspective it would be a peaceful one because no-one would regard such behaviour as being out of the ordinary. There would be no conflict between those who saw killing as acceptable and those who didn't because the latter would not exist. Conflict, violence, and all of the other evils in the world occur because people are just not the same. It doesn't matter how people differ; what matters is that they do differ.

Take away that difference and the problem is solved, but this an ridiculous proposition. I would much rather try and work out a way of accomodating differences and spreading tolerance instead of arguing that we ought impose a blanket morality over the entire the globe.

Of course the world would be peaceful if everyone was a Christian, but it would also be peaceful if we were all cold-blooded murderers too.

That is my Mad Statement Of The Week.

-- Matthew (mdpope@hotmail.com), January 24, 2000.


Here's a question that can't be answered, but try to imagine what the answer might be, those christians here who want us all to live by your code...

In all of human history, which single belief system has been been responsible for the greatest number of deaths and the greatest amount of torture, theft, and general human misery? Or in other words, in the name of which "god" has the greatest carnage been wrought?

Any takers?

-- Dzog (dzog@plasticine.com), January 24, 2000.


For the other side of the coin , What would life be like if there was NO relegion, of any description ?

-- XOR (drwizzard@usa.net), January 24, 2000.

Well, XOR, does the number of wars that have been waged in the name of "No-god" give you a clue?

-- Dzog (dzog@plasticine.com), January 24, 2000.

dzog, Yes. Probably considerably less than the number of wars/conflicts/casualtys caused by relegion.

-- XOR (drwizzard@usa.net), January 24, 2000.

Connie, imagine if we had no religions competing for converts,and all people sought God in the privicy of their darkened rooms as instructed By Jesus. Imagine all the gums that would stop beating if we all stopped prostilizing our neighbors becuse we are so "damned"sure we possess the only righteous path. Imagine if we only prayed the Lords prayer as instructed by Jesus( who came not to change the law !) Imagine if Christians,Muslims and Jews just sought the silence of God and SHUT UP, expect we would all have a little more peace on Earth as It IS IN Heaven And we could put the clergy to useful work as practiced by a Mother Teresa! selfless service for our fellow men instead of suffering through their insessant babbeling over who is saved and who isn't as if they had a clue.Hell is waiting for all those who presume to know. Even Christ felt forsaken in his dieing moments and you all presume to such sureity Let's all get a litte humble before the Majesty of Forever and Forever,Amen

-- Rev.EDucation (Bellowing@Babel.com), January 24, 2000.

Nice point, Rev. In my own anarchist, buddhist sort of way, I concur.

-- Dzog (dzog@plasticine.com), January 24, 2000.

The answer to Dzog's original question is Capitalism.

-- Matthew (mdpope@hotmail.com), January 24, 2000.

Matthew, interesting answer... my first thought is no, if you regard capitalism as being the bastard economic system that the pox of the Renaissance threw up... but if by capitalism you mean a more general and generic sort of greed or addiction to what Christians call "mammon" (sp?), you might have a point... although I would counter that with the observation that such a generalised motivation as "greed" has spent less time embroidered on battle standards than the cross...

-- Dzog (dzog@plasticine.com), January 24, 2000.

Just Sharing:

I agree with everything that you say. (I didn't read your post earlier, before responding to the others. - - We had to go to Red Lobster to use up some gift certificates and just got back. It's a really distasteful job, but someone had to do it! ;-) ;-) )

Just as you say we have no knowledge of morality outside of Divine instruction, we have no knowledge of what love is aside from Scripture. (God is love. - - agape love - - selfless love.)

And God, Jehovah and Allah are the same God-Creator. I appreciated all that you shared.

Dzog: May I have the book, chapter, and verse on that?

Hi, A@A, etc.! How are you?

God was lenient with Sodom and Gomrrah until He couldn't find even ONE Godly person.

Dee: Your sweet spirit is appreciated!

Matthew:

I can't quite agree with you, because even Christian churches who have become conformed to this world have conflict and backbiting, and some of them are almost homogeneous.

Our church is a college town church and we have people from every imaginable background and have a very loving working (and praying) relationship.

I can't visualize that peaceful place where everyone is a murderer!

Dzog and XOR: In human history, the 20th Century is not going to take second place to any. And it wasn't Christianity that did it. It was the dialectical materialism of Communism and the cultic Naziism which killed up to 40 million in the Soviet Union (their own people) and 6 million Jews in Germany. Neither group was even nominally Christian. Some of their inhabitants were, but the governments themselves were not. Oftentimes, Christians are blamed, but committed, practicing Christians should not be killing anyone.

Islamic Fundamentalism has a charming practice known as 'Jihad' which allows them to kill others in the name of their God.

The Inquisition and the Crusades were the closest one can come to blaming Christianity, but both involved other issues (still not excusable to murder). A religio-political entity conducted the inquisition for rooting out heresy and retaining power, (in the name of The Prince of Peace! (Ostensibly)

The Crusades were an attempt to get back lands (and power)taken in an earlier time. The conflict in Ireland is chiefly over economics, not true faith.

Not that Christians are innocent of shed blood! But it brings shame on our Savior. The worst He did was toss over the tables of the moneychangers in the temple. Our modern churches could benefit from something akin to that, today.

-- Connie (hive@gte.neT), January 24, 2000.


Larry wrote: "Oh...excuse me the exception being adultry... big hairy deal. And it's very unclear whether you can remarry, unless the spouse dies. The bottom line is that you don't have much of a choice but to stay married, that is if you want to have sex."

There are many things in life in which we have no choice... much as we like to pretend otherwise. However, you may have more choices here than you think. There are MANY biblical grounds for divorce. Marriage is a biblical covenant and you have to understand what the bible means by covenant. There are many actions a spouse can take that would cause him to covenantally "die" to the other spouse thus freeing that spouse to divorce him and to seek another spouse. If you want to really understand what God means by marriage and covenant, you'll have to read the bible.

"This thought brings me to another point. Only married people are allowed to have sex according to the Bible, otherwise you're fornicating. We now have birth control. They didn't have it 2000 years ago."

Let's see... we now have birth control, therefore fornicating is no longer a sin. Are you saying that morality is simply a convenience that changes to fit the circumstances? If so, then we need to defend Hitler and the Nazi's for they only adjusted their morality to fit their particular circumstances... all very justifiable I'm sure.

"So now what? Let's see, the divorce rate is 50% now. You can lose practically everything especially (usually, not offending any ladies because each case is different. I'm sure ladies get the short end too) if you're a guy, get married and she decides to divorce you. So, you decide not to get married at this time, but in the mean time you have hormones raging and all your friends are having fun. You're looking gay by refusing to go to bed with anybody. Even your parents are thinking this. Has it happened. Yes, to me. For years, but not anymore. I fornicate now. Not proud, but it beats not getting anything and looking gay.

"Other Christains don't touch my points. They get upset on Biblical interpretations. But you see, nothing is solved by getting upset. Many don't want to discuss it, because I'll bet they're doing something behind close doors too."

Remember Larry, God's not a spoilsport... he invented sex. Now in our sex obsessed culture, I can understand your predicament. You need to work that out between you, Him and the lady who loves you.

-- Phil Morris (patrickhenry7@hotmail.com), January 25, 2000.


Connie wrote: "Futureshock: (and Phil Morris) If a husband loves his wifeas himself, and nurtures her the same way he nurtures himself, will it be easy for his wife to respect and prefer him? The only allowable reason for divorce AND REMARRIAGE in the NT is infidelity."

Connie, refer to my reply to Larry as it is applicable here too. But we make a mistake if we limit our bible to the NT. The Word of God, the only infallible rule for faith and life, is the whole bible. God wrote the OT too. The NT expands and changes the OT but the Word of God is a seamless whole to be understood within the context of the entire bible... not just an isolated section of it. Yes, infidelity in relation to marriage was discussed in the NT which IS one of the biblical grounds for valid divorce... but it is not the only grounds. What actions cause a person to "die" to the marriage covenant and to his spouse? Read the whole bible and I think you'll find that infidelity is not the only cause. Would a person whose spouse had committed murder still be required to remain married to the unrepentent murderer? Do you think counseling will reform him? What does the bible say? There are lots of other circumstances and sins one could think of... and the bible is not silent on these things. God had a reason for discussing infidelity AGAIN in the NT but he has also addressed many of the other circumstances in the OT and the NT did not invalidate them.

We have to know the WHOLE word of God.

-- Phil Morris (patrickhenry7@hotmail.com), January 25, 2000.


The Answer Is:

HEAVEN

{what do I win, Don Pardo?}

-- flora (***@__._), January 25, 2000.


Hi, Phil Morris,

I agree that the Old Testament allowed both multiple wives and divorce "because of the hardness of their hearts'. All a man had to do was present a certificate of divorcement. That is why the NT is actually tougher, even though we are under grace and not the Law; however, if one just LOOKS at another with lust in his heart, it is as bad as committing adutery. (Remember Jimmy Carter?)

As a Christian, though, and being in a different relationship with God than were Old Testament Jews, (as a grafted-in Gentile instead of a born-in Jew) I believe we are to observe the admonitions of the NT. We'll fail, because ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God - - that's what sin is - - a falling short of God's measure.

There is a difference of interpretation among Christians concerning remarriage of an INNOCENT PARTY (who's innocent?). The Scriptures say that he/she 'is not bound' and some argue that means not bound to the marriage, but others argue that it means they are still bound to the vow. ...'See that when thou vowest a vow, to perform it, because God has no pleasure in fools'...but in my thinking (and I COULD be wrong) if one is not bound, then one is not bound to the marriage OR the vow.

Larry: I concur with Phil on his statement. 'A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways'...and you even said that 'to one who knows what is right to do, but doesn't do it, to him it is sin'.

Never be conformed to the world (let the world push you into its mold) no matter what the reason. As Paul the Apostle said: "It is better to marry than to burn". But his preference was for people to remain as he was - - unmaried. I think that's what is called the 'Pauline Priviledge"...

And, Phil: I know that the Old Testament is extremely important; in fact they are the 'Scriptures' that Jesus referred to, not the NT, which wasn't yet written. But because Christ's atoning death on the cross fulfilled the Law, and ushered in a New Covenant, I believe we are to give it greater emphasis.

We don't have to observe the dietary laws, for example, and we worship on the Lord's Day instead of the Sabbath. And we are not to judge each other in the observance of Holy Days. And it's better to eat no meat nor drink any wine at all than to injure a brother's conscience, even though both, in moderation, are allowed the Christian.

Concerning abortion (mentioned above): Has the 'Boomer' generation clonsidered that in aborting all of these babies that they may have just eliminated their assurance of a decent retirement? - -if one lokks at it from a purely selfish angle.

They are probably not aware that 1/3 of the world's population is going to be destroyed by famine, pestilience, earthquakes and war.

They'd better start reading the hand-writing on the wall - n'est pas?

flora!: I had forgotten the war in heaven! I thought he was referring to the ones here on earth.

-- Connie (hive@gte.net), January 25, 2000.


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