I, Troll

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

I, Troll

I am a troll, and I inhabit internet news groups and bulletin boards.

I am not like most people. I do not find groups that speak to subjects with which I agree and people with whom I share a common concern. No I, troll, find subjects with which I do *not* share concern and live there instead. Why, you ask? Simple. My main purpose in life is not to discuss and have reasonable, intelligent conversation with like-minded people. My purpose is simply to tell those with whom I *disagree* just how stupid they really are. And they deserve every bit of it! After all, they have a viewpoint that differs from mine. A concern I do not share. Isn't that enough? It certainly is for me!

I exist solely to stifle debate. To end discussion of topics I don't agree with. To stop people from even *talking* about a subject that I don't personally approve of, and if you think I am exaggerating just watch me cheer every time I manage to ridicule or harass someone out of a group! Good! One down! They shouldn't be speaking about this topic anyway - nobody should, and I will do everything in my power to bring it to a halt once and for all. Indeed, if this wasn't my goal, I would simply ignore the group altogether and move along. But I don't. I am a troll, and the discussion must end.

You may think this makes me anti-free-speech, but that is not the case at all, I assure you. I agree with *all* free speech - as long as it is the same as mine. Anyone else doesn't *deserve* to speak, and must be berated, ridiculed and demonized until they realize that fact - until they realize that I am right and they have no *business* thinking differently or discussing a topic that doesn't concern me in the least. Who do they think they are, anyway?

If you only knew me, you would know that I am a truly kind, compassionate person who tolerates even the most bizarre, dishonest, unethical and immoral behavior the world has to offer and I am the first person to say so to everyone I meet. The only thing I don't tolerate is opposition to my "tolerant" point of view. That is the one, single case where tolerance is intolerable.

People (the ignorant, stupid ones) believe that thoughts should not be controlled, but they have no idea just how dangerous opposing thoughts are! What if others listen to them and begin to think for themselves? They then may even decide someday to (gasp) *speak* those thoughts, and that is completely unacceptable. No, there must be no opposition to my point of view - none. People must think as I do or they have to be destroyed, and destroyed by any means necessary. Since I am right, I don't see the problem with this, and I wish they would just quit this "thinking" business and succumb to that fact.

You may wonder why I believe that an opposing viewpoint is dangerous. Well, I'm not quite sure myself. It could be that my position is so weak that it (and I) can't stand up even to the slightest criticism. All I do know is that it frightens me terribly, and if I am afraid of anything in this world, I am afraid of being frightened. Fear must be conquered at all costs - even if that cost is the truth. Truth is highly over-rated anyway, don't you think? For, if I am always right and yet the truth tells me otherwise, well, the only logical conclusion is that the truth is wrong. That this particular so-called "truth" is actually false, and because it had the audacity to oppose me - even telling *me* that I am in error (can you believe it?) - then it, too must be annihilated, for I am never wrong.

I don't know, maybe it is because I never really grew up. Or maybe I was raised by someone who was just as frightened as I am now and who never really understood this whole "free speech hang-up" to begin with. Or maybe it is just because I feel small, insecure and inferior and the only way I can feel like "somebody" is by making others look smaller in their associate's eyes. Or perhaps it is a combination of all of them. It doesn't matter anyway. Trolls don't worry about such things. We just are.

I have many means at my disposal to accomplish my "holy" task - and it *is* holy, by the way. It just has little or nothing to do with that dratted "religion stuff". Basically, I rely on those more honest and honorable than I - my opponents - to actually post with (get this) *real* information about themselves. HAHAHA! If they are *stupid* enough to do that, well then, they deserve everything they get. I can flood their e-mail with spam, hack their web sites if they have them, and even track them down personally and contact their employer and destroy them that way - in real life. In essence, I am a juvenile, hood-wearing, snivelling vandal - simple as that. If it weren't for the internet, I would likely be out turning over mailboxes, spray-painting cars or hanging cats from tall trees. But you can be *caught* doing that! Here, you can't. Oh, what unadulterated *fun* this is!

Am I afraid of retribution? Don't be silly! Being a troll, I almost always post anonymously. Not because I am offering information valuable to the group that might endanger my professional position, but because being the coward I am, it allows me to attack with absolute impunity. I can hurl rocks at passers-by from high up in my tree where I know they can never see or reach me. Oh, what joy it is to be a troll!

Truth be told, I do this mainly because although I can hurl insult after insult at those with other opinions, taking more and more pleasure each time, I myself am not strong enough emotionally to take even a *fraction* of what I spit out. In essence, I am the quintessential coward. I can send vile, hate-filled e-mail or crash web sites all from the safe position of anonymity. Never do I have to worry about the same happening to me, for if I did I wouldn't dare be so brazen.

And besides, what if *they* actually tracked *me* down? Not only am I not strong enough to defend myself physically, but what would *my* employer think of my behavior? My friends? My family? If they had any *idea* how small, callous, vicious and afraid I am, they would never speak to me again! They would call me pathetic, sad and perhaps even take pity on me. For if one thinks about it, who would want to associate with a troll? With someone who takes *pleasure* in berating others, simply for an opposing point of view? Someone who intentionally causes damage to other's reputations, yet themselves hide behind their mother's skirt? No, no, NO! *Causing* damage is one thing, but it takes a man to open himself up to the same treatment, and a man I am not. I am a child, and nobody must know it but me.

If you are curious as to why I don't participate in discussions in groups with people I *agree* with, and whose subjects I share concern over, then you don't understand my character at all. What fun would that be? Usually, I don't have the intellect or mental capacity to competently argue my points and that leaves me open to ridicule myself. My ignorance would be wide open for everyone to see. If you think I am going to take *that* risk, think again. In fact I spit at anyone who does this, simply because it reminds me only too much of the fact that I don't have the courage to do the same. It reminds me that I am a coward. And again, that I am afraid.

No, it is much easier (and *way* more fun) to hide my shortcomings by insulting others. This solves all my problems. I don't have to expose my ignorance, I can insult others thereby making me feel better about myself and I can do it all behind the coward's cloak of the internet, completely ruling out retaliation. Life just doesn't get any better than this!

My tools are vast and varied, and because you have shown an interest in my "trade" I will tell you of a few of my favorites - a short "Troll Tutorial", if you will. The first thing you must realize, is that because I hardly ever have a rational, logical counter-argument to their position, I can only fall-back on these. Each may be used to different degrees depending on the situation at-hand. I call it the "4-D" strategy, and if you look closely at almost every one of my posts, some or all of them are used in almost every single case:

1. Downplay what they are saying. Simply tell them that their story doesn't mean anything, or that this kind of thing happens all the time. Proof of what you are saying is not necessary, especially since there is almost never any to find. That is not the point. Your goal is to cause others to doubt their story - period. Never forget that.

2. Dismiss their story altogether. You can do this by using phrases like "Urban Myth", "Urban Legend", "Old News", or simply and categorically declaring it as false. Many times, that alone will work just fine, since you will *never* have to actually back-up your claim. How can they make you?

3. Distract those who may be listening. This can be accomplished by painstakingly keeping track of everything the poster has said in the past and then using this against him to discredit both him and his story. In other words, character assassination - and I put the "ass" in assassination - both of them! This many times takes a great deal of lies, exaggeration and outright slander, but if you practice, you could become quite good at it - I have. In essence, you are changing the subject. Since you can not generally offer evidence to counter his claim, you instead bring up a previous post where the person perhaps lost his temper or made a side-comment of a religious nature and quote those words back to the group. This in place, you can then point to those words as "proof" that the person can not and *should* not be believed. Adding a healthy dose of blatant ridicule at this point many times completes the action. Besides, being the pathetic little child I am, ridiculing others always makes me feel better, and you will too.

4. Demonize your opponent. This is one of my favorites, since it takes the least amount of intelligence to pull-off. There are many words you can use that cause an almost involuntary response in others. If you realize that fact, as our current U.S. President does, it can be quite effective. A few examples are "Radical, Bigot, Racist, Extremist, Right-Wing Wacko, Religious Zealot", etc etc. I get goose-bumps just *thinking* about it! You see, if you can convince others that this person shouldn't be believed *period*, then you are almost home-free.

The only defense these idiots have to my attacks are ridiculous things like so-called "logic" or "reason" or "facts". HA! Trolls don't worry about such trivialities! If even truth can not be "trusted" to agree with me, why should I worry about little things like these? Can you answer that?

My goal is not the (spit) truth! My goal is being right. My goal is demeaning others to make them shut-up and myself feel important and noticed. My goal is belittling someone into *not* looking at facts and logic and truth. My goal is deception.

If you think all this is not *extremely* important to me, think again! Who else in their right mind would spend countless hours, day after day, week after week, month after month posting to a news group full of people who he simply doesn't agree with? Who share a concern that he does not. Tell me that! Who else would spend hundreds, if not thousands of hours in the pursuit of nothing more than telling others how stupid they are for their beliefs? I would, that's who.

I am a troll.

------------------- Steve Baxter January 23, 2000

-- Steve Baxter (chicoqh@home.com), January 23, 2000


"As long as TBY2k is open, this board stays."


Posted by ( Doc Paulie on January 23, 2000 at 08:43:24:

In Reply to: Why are we still here? posted by Not Today on January 22, 2000 at 20:16:50:

-- It's (all@theBonkers.Board), January 23, 2000.

Do you also have that fuzzy pink troll hair? Did you know, if you shake your head upside-down your hair will stay that way?

-- cin (cinlooo@aol.com), January 23, 2000.

Very well put Steve. Thank you for the effort.


-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), January 23, 2000.

Did you know that if you rub a trolls hair and make a wish your wish will come true?

-- justme (justme@myhouse.com), January 23, 2000.

This can be applied to more than just internet 'Trolls'. Great post Steve. This is a keeper.

-- Mello1 (mello1@ix.netcom.com), January 23, 2000.

Some thoughtful grist for the local anthropologist's mill. Thanx, Steve.

-- Chuck (cestin@aa.net), January 23, 2000.

Ahhh, my couriousity has been satisfied. I can rest easy now. thanks.

-- Scooter (brucej@infoave.net), January 23, 2000.

5. Do whatever the neighbor's dog tells me to do, heh.

-- Hokie (Hokie_@hotmail.com), January 23, 2000.

Propaganda Analysis (excerpt)

"As generally understood, propaganda is opinion expressed for the purpose of influencing actions of individuals or groups... Propaganda thus differs fundamentally from scientific analysis. The propagandist tries to "put something across," good or bad. The scientist does not try to put anything across; he devotes his life to the discovery of new facts and principles. The propagandist seldom wants careful scrutiny and criticism; his object is to bring about a specific action. The scientist, on the other hand, is always prepared for and wants the most careful scrutiny and criticism of his facts and ideas. Science flourishes on criticism. Dangerous propaganda crumbles before it...

In other words, if this bozo believes what he just said, then Trolls are pure scum. Only the ignorant incessantly stand-up to defend their BS.

Ever notice how much effort this guy puts into "managing his dishonor??"

It's awfully revealing...isn't it??

(more 2 follow)

-- ICE Just4U (ISee@ThruU.com), January 23, 2000.

I confess. I too am a troll for the same reasons. Help me!!! Before I become even more of a retard than I already am!!!

-- Y2k Pro Jr. (ImaLame@Troll.com), January 23, 2000.

Forget already??? wow...


Trolls are lazy and selfish creatures. They try to push your buttons (usually buttons that have to do with personal esteem) and try to get you to 'make a defense' - which is basicly spend alot of energy trying to 'reason' with them to win them over to your side or at least to stop attacking your person. That is all they want. They want you to exhaust yourself and get all frustrated and do alot of work which will end up not changing them or what they do.

There is one hint as to the nature of their trollishness: THEY ACCUSE YOU OF WRONG. So there you have it. They are acting like little devils with pitchforks to torment.

There are ways to deal with devilish things: TURN THE LIGHT ON THEM and IGNORE THEM THERE AFTER.

They are emotional parasites who want to suck on your emotions. Its a power trip for them. If you respond to them they will have manipulated you into playing the game THEY have arranged and you will lose.


-- ..- (dit@dot.dash), January 22, 2000

-- ICE Just4U (ISee@ThruU.com), January 23, 2000.

Hi Steve,

[hey bud, ..] I am writing you at this address rather than the "open forum" as I don't care to talk to to anybody there at this time. However, I did read the discussion. I thought you brought up a number of interesting points and I thought most of the responses were asinine, especially the trools replies. [Well, yes, Ron Schwarz's "you talk like a pot head!".."you just want to legalize drugs through the back door." "Pot is Pot", etc. Nausiating. (No Ron, Industrial Hemp, not "pot"...big diff. As Leon wrote: "Stamping out ignorance, the educator's job is never done..."]

Am I missing something here, or is this insanity?

[Nope, ..not only is it insanity, .it's hypocracy in the worst. How do people get like that?] Kinda of reminds me of planet Earth sometimes. the shuff goin down here, very dangerous stuff. It is involving too many people, too many species, future generations, stepping on so many people's lives, threatening so many species, its almost inconceivable. I'm beside myself when I think of all the children, their future and what they are being handed, .all the lies, the witholding of solutions, the activities of "distruptors", finally coming to understand "greed", I never knew it was such a powerful driving force, unquenchable thirst, .so short sighted, ..so little Heart, so disconnected from the Totality. In simple words, it's a Bitch to get older, and have one's illusions popped, about what so many say, "Hey...wake up and smell the coffee!! THIS is reality.." As if somehow, they are proud of it, or that it makes sense, or has anything to do with a something loving or uplifting. It is sickness, , .deep sickness, and it imposes itself on everything, and drags everything down to it's empty, joyless level. Really scares me, and it is "a vexation to the Spirit". Wilhelm Reich nailed these bozo's to the wall for "why" they do what they do...read his "Listen Little Man" and you'll understand.

Like, no shit Holmes, ]

The oil thing--I don't know. It is probably politics, as usual. Gotta herd the sheep, keep 'em occupied with something besides sniffing out the truth. [Yeah, .its just too bizzar. It is not 18 days since the Jan 1 roll- over. We (humanity) just get past one of the largest turning points in all history (potential catastrophic simultaneous breakdown of infrastructure systems), after 500 Billion is spent world wide to "make sure everything doesn't break down", what? So within 10 days China says (well, actually the local thugs running that section of town say). "War with the US is inevitable", twice no less. Ummm, you mean we fixed everything, so that we could then go to war? Now that is major f_ked up. After all that cooperation (unparalled in history), in 10 days, they are back to yanking the oil markets, cutting production to get prices up, "BOOM" stockmarkets (profit extraction), , i mean, it is just insane. How can a kid have a future in all that? Keep the pedal to the floor on environmental destruction, .now that we 'made' it. What the hell did they learn anyway? I'm speechless, ]

I have a question for you. Have you ever noticed that politicians (or Trolls?) don't look or act like normal people? There is something very peculiar about them--almost as if they are another SPECIES altogether. Another thing--every time one of them opens his mouth, you get this gut feeling that the truth is not being told and that we are being given little decoys to follow. Anyway, I am starting to conclude, based on no factual information whatsoever, that they are genetically different and possibly engineered that way. Something to ponder and chew on. Is Tilting Crow tilting TOO FAR?!!

[No. I hear you loud and clear; have had the same impression many times; started in m twenties. I am not just saying this to agree with you. I mean, yes, , exactly the same impression. I have had others comment on the same. There is something not right about them, you can see it in their eyes, in their body expression, movement and language; the tone of their voice is very revealing, 'posturing, empty, manufactured, not authentic', ..(of course not all, but you can tell the one's we *are* talking about, where the shoe does fit). Yes, Wilhelm Reich talked much about this; called it "Body Armor", stiffness, just not natural. Physiological manifestation of how twisted the emotions are inside, you can see it on their face.

If you want it to make sense, then just replace the word "Troll" with "Politician" or "Lizard", well, then Icke's stuff reads perfectly. Much insight there in his works, but only for those who have eyes to see. (davidicke.com) Some of the best 'sci-fi' I've read in a long time.] [But to answer your question, .yes, you are seeing the distortion, the cut-off-ness of those individuals to which you refer. but if you let them know you see it, they will plague your life for having been seen for what they are. Again, I cannot over emphasize how important the works of Wilhelm Reich are, especially "The Murder of Christ In Giradano Bruno", his book "Listen Little Man", and "Sex-Pol" (Sexual Politics) i.e, how elites seek to control everything, including "sexuality". Just think of the Church, and you will understand what controlling every aspect of everyone's life is about.

Wilhelm got so close to the truth of identifying the people of which you speak above, and identifying what makes them "tick", "why" they do what they do, ..he was thrown in jail, and is the only American author to have his books banned, and burned in the US. Many people are not aware that this is another dirty little secret in our history. He was right around the time of Freud.

Now, considering history and what we have seen, and considering Gallileo, Coopernicus, and the "happy reception" they got announcing their discoveries, .can you imagine how close to the truth Wilhelm Reich got, to have his books banned from schools & universities, .burned, .and then thrown in jail, left there to die? That ought to be some small clue as to the importance of what the man discovered and had to say, about the psychology of those you speak of, and that they permeate positions of power everywhere.

They are the only one's sick enough to be "driven" to do what they have to do to get there. These people are dangerously compulsive, twisted and extremely "intelligent" (in some ways, say, like Hitler was), but they are also some of the most stupid, disconnected sots in existence because they are so emotionally twisted. And, like torturers and punishers, it is difficult to comprehend that they DO derive 'pleasure' (a form of it i guess) from what they do. It is not like they are some innocent little angle who just made a minor mistake, and quick to mend their ways when pointed out.

No, these people are so damaged, so sick, that they insist on dragging everyone else down to their level, .because, they are green with envy, hateful, spiteful, want to reach out, and lash out, when they see a Natural person, , because, .it reminds them of how cut-off they are from Creation, from their own intuition, there own sensibilities, anything that would make them human. This is the most painful reminder to them, being left in the Hell of their own empty mind, desperately searching for an authentic feeling, the hole inside so big, they don't even know up from down, shackled within the confines of thier own desert, with no clue as to seeing a way out or to change things.

And that is how they get so "outer" directed, to need to control EVERYTHING, how everyting becomes 'material', , and why 'things' become so important, and 'appearances', and, sadly, there really is very little for them, ..because very deep inside, they somehow sense all this from memories long past ('when they were a little baby')..and they don't know where "Mom" or "Dad" is anymore (they have lost their bonding, or never had it to begin with, having usually come from extreme abuse families, and/or extreme alcoholic families, or rigid punishing non-loving Religious families, and/or black/white right/wrong Police or Military families, .I am talking here, the truly twisted ones on the outer edge of the Bell Curve.

This is not just 'an opinion'. If you read the literature on Adult Children of Alcoholics, you will find this is closer to the truth. ACoA material will help you understand the dynamics, and Wilhelm Reich came closer than anyone now or before. The man should have been given a Noble Prize, .no question whatsoever. But what he did was to dare to speak about the very denial that we all see and know is going on around us, absolute bulls eye, devestatingly true, and what he found was so shocking, about what makes (some) human's "tick", and how many of them are in politics and positions of power, .well, it was a REAL threat to those who hide from view, but are in essence, parasites and vampires, .('real' ones) in their relationship to humanity, the greed, the undermining entire cultures, rainforests, etc.

You know, ..all the suff Thom Hartman talked about in "Last Days Of Ancient Sunlight"? What makes THOSE people tick, and they are in control, .no doubt about that. And Wilhelm Riech was the one and only who actually got past the "veil" on who and what those people really are, and what drives them. He referred to them as "Mo Ju". If you think I'm trying to trick you into reading his material, I am. Landmark, breakthrough research, .still yet to be recognized for its far reaching importance, and EXACTLY why we see what we do in the world today, as far as the 'people' making the decisions to destroy and/or not implement solutions.

But it is very risky for any academic to read his works, becuase their bubble would be popped as well, and so, the instinctively "stay away", ..because their whole paradigm is at risk, and it really is. You have to have 'cahonies' to realize what Reich is talking about, as much as recognizing say, the consequences of (those very same people) making Industrial Hemp 'illegal'. It is almost beyond comprehension, but truth *is* stranger that fiction, and all this is just a small part of it.

My god, think of the world we would have, and could have had, ..had that been promoted and allowed to be. It will break your Heart when you see it, that people could be that cold, that uncaring, that deliberately destructive. Don't for a moment think they did not know what they were doing, any more that Hitler didn't know what he was doing. Like I said, you have to understand, he took pleasure in it, .and, so did many others who gravitated to his side, only too happy and willing to carry out "his" wishes. (Like sticky Trolls coming together to support and justify each others crap...how weak.)

And that is the sickness of this world in a nut shell, ..and no one knows what to do about it..and so, the cycle continues. And that is one hell of an "educational" problem to deal with, ..huh?

Blow me Troll....

-- ICE Just4U (ISee@ThruU.com), January 23, 2000.

Is there hope for chronic trolldom?

Surely there's a "Trolls Anonymous" chapter somewhere near.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), January 23, 2000.

See how quick they forget? For any people who just missed the recent "Troll Flame War" (where 5 of these "empty punks?" just departed..admitting defeat)

BE SURE to see the following. READ THEM...well worth it. Watch a Troll in action. Check the 'content' of what they have to share, and check what was trying to be discussed.

Then come back, re-read the guck above...and see if you still agree.Can anyone give me a link to Steve Meyer's original post? Thanks (no text) greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

-- Yan (no@no.no), January 22, 2000 Answers Yan - Thanks for asking: (here's the sequence of events as it unfolded.)







"OIL CRISIS?" THREAD: (Troll Scum In Action)



THIRD RELATED THREAD: "Ron's Hotel on Fire"



FOURTH RELATED THREAD: "Flame Wars, Sparks & Fun"




A Troll returns to his swamp:




And the bottom line, slicing Trolls to the bone?

CARL SAGAN's BALONEY DETECTION KIT - "MiKeY" http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002Nv6

Didn't want anyone to forget, or go back to sleep. Thanks for keeping the issue alive & well Troll. Everytime I see one of you scum justifying your junk behavior, I'm gonna step your crap like a bug...with the truth.

Why lie? Ya know what i mean?

-- ICE just4U (ISee@ThruU.com), January 23, 2000.


Thank you. In recent days we on this forum have witnessed a man's life work trashed, threats received in his e-mail, and his website hacked...all of which were NON-Y2K related...solely to drive him from this forum. This wouldn't have been possible if the person who was trashed hadn't been using his real e-mail address.

Another long-time poster was driven from this forum less spectacularly, but similarly, and just as cruelly. I'm not going to do any "outing" of the troll involved (at least for now), but the remnants are still here to be found. A "newcomer" to our forum cyber-stalked one of our long-term posters and found him here (another reason to consider very carefully the use of one's real name or e-mail address on the internet). I won't repeat the false allegations this troll posted, but they were despicable. The trolls are all so busy high-fiving each other about driving away another "doomer", I don't think they much care that the troll who did this damage has a clinically diagnosed multiple personality disorder and maintains a UFO website. Just imagine what they would do with that knowledge if the troll was a "doomer".

There are a fair number of reports from posters on this forum who have been cyber-stalked, had anonymous complaints made to their employers, and received e-mailboxes full of threats, and worse. There are at least a small number of trolls on TB2000 who are actually pathological, and not above reaching out to touch someone in Real Life. It's a serious matter, in spite of some of the troll postings that they are here for their "entertainment". We might do well to question just what "entertainment" means to some people.

-- (TrollPatrol@sheesh.now), January 23, 2000.

awwwwh, gee. Wazza matta Little Troll? Come on, let's hear you regurgitate again with your empty excuses? Ummm...did I come in on your weak thread and step on it? You mean, like what you are so proud of doing?

Come on... Phlueeze! Barf again in front of everybody so all can see you for what you are...in the light of day. Let's see what little chunks come up this time.

Alright? You don't mind do you? I mean, this is what Trolling is all about...right?

-- ICE just4U (ISee@ThruU.com), January 23, 2000.

Troll Patrol,

Thanx. Obviously, ours posts hit out of sequence. I hope I'm not going over the line here; i AM sick of these people? I am not trying to 'spam' TB2000, choosing carefully where to "step". Not trying to promote anything except a reasonably safe place for people to discuss important issues. TB2000 is awesome; i hate to see disruptors have their way, with too many sitting back just watching when they know its wrong. Yes, Trolls are an amazing energy drain, because they have NO authentic feelings, or thoughts, or decency. If I am "OD" on this, quick email to me and I'll do whatever is best for you/TB2000; drop it, whatever. I rely on knowing that not everyone is stupid to see what is going on here. I'll be as 'judicious' as possible. I think u can see from some of my other "Socks" (iz zat like Mr. Hat? SouthPark?) like "MiKeY" where all this is coming from.

Bennett recently said, in "The Death Of Outrage":

"You know what's wrong with this country? The death of outrage. Outrage, as an emotion is EXACTLY the proper and healthy response to an OUTRAGEOUS situation. And we don't have anybody doing that any more. And they wonder why we see all the crap we do in the world today? Government out of control? Environmental destruction? Children dying, people hurting...and nobody feels anything about this? Now THAT is sickness. No feeling about anything...no motivation to DO anything; get the connection? What is wrong in our world today is there is too much "mentaility and thinking"...but a complete VOID of genuine feeling, healthy feeling, caring feeling, WITH CONVICTION."

"Nobul" (a painting of a Mother Bull standing in a field watching over her calf) The word 'nobul' means:

"The necessary anger a Mother Bull feels when someone or something threatens her young."

That is healthy...that is what us Humans need to feel towards our ecology, towards the less fortunate, to those who cannot protect themselves, towards the Children, and towards their having a safe, humane and sustainable Future. That kind of feeling. That kind of caring...in action.

'nuff said.

-- ICE just4U (ISee@ThruU.com), January 23, 2000.

I'm a polly, not a troll. I thought that you trolled when you fished. I've caught many fish trolling. Fish caught trolling are doomed. Does that mean I troll for doomers? Nope, I'm just a polly.

-- (I'm@pol.ly), January 23, 2000.

Troll Patrol,

Yes, I hear all you are saying above & thank you. No, I had no idea all that has already happened. Small suggestion for your consideration. When I came on TB2000 and read the 'guidelines' they had requested that participants use their real names & email addresses...because of the trouble it causes the mail servers, notification, rejects & bounce-backs. I've been a computer VAR for over 15 years, so I know why that request was made. Made perfect sense to me. It was just a matter of courtsey to comply with your simple request.

I, naive fool that I am, followed that advice at TB2000's request. Then, you are so kind as to share the reality of what some of these scum do to other people's lives...that they have NO clue about whatsoever. Unbelievable; good people cannot even imagine such things, because that is not something they dwell on; they don't "Think" like that.

So idea here, maybe, is to in someway caution others about using their real email address, for the very reasons you stated above. In a way that does not "scare them off." Tricky paradox, no?

thanks for your advice. I am truly glad for the other responsible people, like you, that are here on TB2000. What you must see, or have seen over time, to see what these individuals have done to YOUR forum, i would imagine is a bit disheartening. Yet, I'm sure the goodness, the humor, wit and insight you see keeps you going.

Thank you very much for the important information the TB2000forum provides for so many, a place where many can interact and share their intelligence together...and learn, and inspite of the Trolls, know more about the world they are in.

Much respect,

-- ICE just4u (UR@SpotOn.com), January 23, 2000.

Internet stalkers are the reason I don't use my real name and e-mail address. DSon #2 was stalked a couple of years ago....not a pleasant experience for him or the rest of his family. Because of this, we've all become extremely cautious about giving out too much info on-line.

Even without that horrifying incident, after all the trolling, spamming, etc. that has come about on this board alone I'd be very leary about using real name/addy.

-- justme (justme@myhouse.com), January 23, 2000.

Just Me:

I hear you, thanks. How then is one able (if appropriate) to maybe contact others of like kind to 'follow-up on the side' for items not appropriate on public forum, that idea? Any suggestions you might want to share?

Isn't it sad that those few can have such a chilling effect on others. I think it is not just limited to not being able to use their real names so others can communicate directly, but also...I am seeing it probably stops many truly thoughtful people, represses many perspectives that would normally be open for consideration by curious, imaginative (and above all, decent) people. God, what a waste. So much potential stepped on, so many sitting in the audience that will not feel the trust, or safety to share what they know and think about here, in the forum...when they probably have as much, or more, to share than anyone.

How repressive, confining & Tyrannical. No?

-- ICE (ISee@ThruU.com), January 23, 2000.

Troll "Rat Patrol" (smile/wink!)

"PS. Here's the message, just below the "Add a Comment - Your Response" submit button:Please don't use a fake email address; it creates a lot of technical problems for the community. For example, this software will send you an email alert if someone responds to your message and those alerts will bounce back to us if the address you type isn't valid. "

ummm....some of us ('Mwah' included) are naieve enough to follow reasonable directions.

Maybe consider a caveat like, "However, also keep in mind...dah, dah, dah, etc., truth is stranger than fiction: scum and Trolls DO EXIST!!" Phlueeze keep this in mind, blah blah, before you use your real email.

-- ICE just4u (ISee@ThruU.com), January 23, 2000.

ICE, I wish I had an answer for you. As it stands, the best we can do is have conversations through boards like this, or through chat rooms. Though, other than our family chat room, I've only tried that once. Not a bad experience, just don't really know where to go for a good long talk with like-minded people like we have here. It really is a sad relection on humankind that people have to take such precautions, but what more can I say?

-- justme (justme@myhouse.com), January 23, 2000.

U just said it. Agreed &...Thanx.

-- ICE just4u (UR@SpotOn.com), January 23, 2000.

Hmmm...as long as we are having an extended dialogue on Troll Scum, flushing out every aspect of who and what they really are, another small afterthought occurred to me, thusly:

You notice that if these Trolls really believed in what they were doing; if they really had the 'audience' they THINK is so impressed with their tortured antics, a reasonable person would think they would just go set-up their own forum...right? What could be more obvious than that?

But herein lies the problem: they would open their lines and hang their shingle out there for all to come and join them. That's a start. Then, unsuspecting people would believe their invitation to "share ideas, discuss new perspectives, have an interchange" - the idea being, that it is the *collective intelligence and insight* of ALL which is what every participant learns something (that's the whole idea, right?) It's the value of *the larger conversation* which emerges, that has so much value to so many.

But....but, but, but, but, but...the reality is, as soon as these "unsuspecting visitors" opened up, put forth ANYTHING (that's a valid starting point for a Troll)...then, predictable, the Troll would take a dump on them, right? You know, what they do here all the time, right?

But then these 'unsuspecting visitors' would just leave...wouldn't they. Yes. And the Trolls Board would just take a dive in no time. Nobody there. No fun. No intelligence. No NOTHING. Empty. And then they would just be waiting there by themselves, huh? High Five & all that; scum of a feather stick together.

So, you don't see them doing that do you? Because it wouldn't work...would it? What are the left with? Sneaking out, onto someone ELSES board, right. Coming in and stepping on SOMEONE ELSE's work, and effort and dream...right? That's WHAT they do.

And so, seeing them here, (or elsewhere) You will know, and they will know, that the above is the Truth. Defeated in their own mind, but not yet within the grasp of their conscious awareness, prevented by the sheer stupidity they are arrested in...they continue.

But, when they read such things as all that is in this thread, they go to bed at night...and Dream. And it is there that they cannot forget, or not know, and they slowly *ROT* from within. Setting up their next "life experience" in the days and weeks to come. It does come. Yes!!! And then, it's just a very short while before other things start falling apart in their life...and they do not see it coming. Its like a computer 'worm' or virus that slowly dissembles them. And by the time they read this far...it's too late. Kinda like "Videodrome"

And if they think they are going to 'lash out' at something they think is outside of themselves, about the time they start moving in that direction...Creation starts moving in theirs! And they meet with the *MOST* untimely, 'unlikely' synchronicities in their Life. Little do they know, "There is no outside...to yourSelf"

Rule #3: "What you put out...it what you get back" WATCHOUT!!!

Have nice Dreams tonight Troll...try to forget what you have read here....

Too Late!

BWAH HA HA HA HA HA!!! (As in the movie "Predator")

-- ICE just4u (OneWho@Knows.com), January 23, 2000.

Dang!@@#$% my mistake i guess; the second version is the one you want to read, "Final Draft".

Maybe Sysop can delete the first one? Second verson, a bit more precise.

(sowwy! Bozo me!!)

-- ICE just4u (IMake@Mistakes2.com), January 23, 2000.

"It's the walking sleep...that rots within."

Wavy Gravy

PS. "Elect me...and I'll put a chicken in every pothole!!"

-- ICE likes Gravy (ISee@ThruU.com), January 23, 2000.

So many socks, so few hands...

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 23, 2000.

-- ICE Just4U,

I remember Ron Schwartz' (sic?) "all hemp supporters are pot-heads" lines too, but when I thought about it, I couldn't think of anyone *I* knew who was for 'hemp' who WASN'T in truth also a "pot-head".

Is your experience different than mine, or do you just object to the term "pot-head"?

Calling grass green is not a stereotype,


-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.com), January 23, 2000.

Very good question Frank,

Well, there are 14 state legislatures or more who have passed hemp initiatives and Canada. So, does that mean that all those people, lawyers, politicans, researchers, medical people, economic analysts and agricultural experts from the government...are "pot heads" too?

Why is that? How come gutless ISN'T attacking them? Why doesn't the spineless jelly fish with no education attack THEM? Why? Cause he hasn't done his homework...and they would step on him like the bug that he is. Ron knows where to hide, to stay in the shadows, out of sight. Poor baby...what a frickin excuse for a life.

You see?

To say "pot head" (a generalized lable, like Nigger, Slut, Kike, Limey, Honky, Wap, Wetback, Coon, Velcro Head, etc.) is a term that has ZERO meaning, but it is said with the intention to do harm to the person is it put upon....isn't it? Yes, it is.

Now, saying that doesn't teach you one thing about the merits of hemp, or its industrial applications, or medical applications...does it? No, it doesn't. It distracts the conversation away from the subject under consideration, and gets it off on some side track...by focusing on the person, jumping tracks OFF onto some other question the the accuser wants it to go...isn't it? Yes.

It's a way of controlling the conversation, not by intelligence, or information, or encouraging an exchance of ideas and perspectives...it is meant to *suppress* that information, to suppress the discussion in general...SO IT CANT EVER GET TO CONSIDERING THE FACTS OF THE MATTER...isn't it?

And you have never seen this done before in political debates? Never seen a liar or thief caught in the act...and they IMMEDIATELY ATTACK who ever is getting 'on to them'...to turn the attention AWAY from them?

here...wanna see if I'm kidding? Here are some FACTS: Isn't that what the conversation was supposed to be about? You know "Oil Crisis"...when a solution is right in front of their face?? What kind of crap 'discussion' is that? Get real for a change and see what its costing of us to have this suppressed:


Read the article on Hemp/ABC/EPA. Read the history. See if any of it makes any sense. Ron is too proud to learn. He could give a damn if people are dying, or the environment is being destroyed. So screw him. Move on.

Get educated. Get the Facts. Teach responsiblity. Quit suppressing or turning away.

Screw Ron. Not the Truth. Screw him with his ignorance for all to see. He pushes...it only makes it come out more, and more and more. Hell, even an idiot would be smart enough to back off, so he doesn't draw so much attention to the situation. But he's not even THAT smart..can't even compete with a coniving, manipulative idiot. Sad...isn't it?

Did you see the "Oil Crisis?" thread...or "Ron is Action"?

Did you see "Ron's Hotel on Fire"???

Did you see hisk "Exit out the Side Door" statement?

If not, let me know. I have all the threads saved so the next time, it's easier. Few key strokes, and that issue is dispensed with.

have fun exploring and learing...

-- Nobody (Nobody@Nowhere.com), January 23, 2000.

Problem is Sluggo...there are not enough dicks like you to jack-off with all these hands. Got it? Got any more throw away 'one liners'?

You ever had one thought with any authentic content in your life? Back off Mo-Ju...you stink.

And how many socks u got dweebe? Takes one to know one...huh?


-- ICE just4u (ISee@PieceOCrap.com), January 23, 2000.

You seem upset, Steve.

Want to talk about it?

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 24, 2000.

Gee, ICEjust4U(ISee@PieceOCrap.com),

Are you the same guy who posted this?----


I salute you...

For demonstrating to others, that you are more interested in learning than propping up some empty ego agenda, (the sine qua none of Trolls).

It takes more guts, more heart, more caring to say what you shared above than anyone so stuck in their ways that they are beyond reason.

Your vulnerability, your openess...your trusting and willing to be 'real' is TRUE strength. Not the crap that Trolls use to justify thier antics, holding onto their bag of rocks as they drown.

When u show others what you just did above, not admitting "wrong" but admitting "change - new perspectives"...your standing-up in that way shows others how they too can change, learn, be real, etc.

-- ICE (ISee@ThruU.com), January 23, 2000.

Did you skip your meds? Just a friendly suggestion---you need to take ICE, SteveMeyers, Nobody, ICEjust4U, john, One Who Knows, and all the rest of your sock puppets to a group therapy session. You really managed to trash a good thread here...dude.

-- (ISee@ThruU.too), January 24, 2000.


Personally, I really don't care *what* they make rope out of etc., so long as it doesn't break. I'd bet most people and state legislatures are the same way. But I wouldn't count too much on state legislature support for something if there's a federal law prohibiting it. In politics you don't really want to offend anyone, so why not appease some vocal special intrest group if you know your initiative means nothing due to overriding law?

OTOH the people I know who are PASSIONATE about hemp do smoke pot. My questions for YOU PERSONALLY (not abstracted to some third party) would be:

1. Do you fervently want hemp and by association marijuana legalized?

2. Do you at least occasionally smoke pot?

Your honest answers appreciated.

BTW, my answers are 1. couldn't care less, although since there are far more fatalities from legal drugs (drunk driving and etoh) than illegal, I would tend to vote NO to legallize more. and 2. No.

Also, I disagree with your lumping in "pot head" with racial epithets. One can't help what race one is born into, nor can one change it. A "pot head" on the other hand *voluntarily* is engaging in an illegal activity (currently) and should expect the same societal scorn as a "crack head" or "heroin addict".

Non antagonisticly,


-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.com), January 24, 2000.

This is your good thread?

"My goal is not the (spit) truth! My goal is being right. My goal is demeaning others to make them shut-up and myself feel important and noticed. My goal is belittling someone into *not* looking at facts and logic and truth. My goal is deception."

That's trashing a 'good thread'?

What kind of double standard are you pulling here, anyway?

What do you stand for? If you can't read between the lines, if you don't get the overall "drift" of all that is said is all those threads, all those socks...

Well, let's see your synthesis, ok? Im doing just fine. Some like it hot...some like it not. BFD. It's what you get out of that counts, and you ain't the only one counting here.

Like i said, its a fine line, and if its that blurry *TO YOU*...try *re=reading ALL of it* - instead of pulling one thing out of context. Try to widen your focus just a bit. What it is, speaks for itself, and I'm not writing to please you. You can apply ALL of the perspecives, ok? It's what is approprite for each specific situation, or havn't you figured that out yet?

Hey....u forgot "MiKeY" too....remember?

Look at ALL of it, and let's see you match it? Fair enough?

Opps, u missed another one: where i just trashed the Prime Minister? Check it out: (read the whole thread):

Don't like style? Don't like variety? Do you have any street sense? Have u noticed that bugs don't respond to kindness? No matter how hard you try.

Make no mistake about this: I have a method to my madness, and yes, it is madness of a kind, maby a kind you don't understand. Your world is dying idiot...and anything I can do to get people to look at the issues, is the only thing that counts...to me. Is that ok with you?

FORGET ME. FORGET MY PERSONALITY...THERE ARE A TON of jerks on this forum; in your mind, I am another one of them...so what? What is it going to do about:

"Recent info released on "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" (History Channel); Watergate; Whitewater-Gate; ZipperGate; Iran Contra (Regan- Bush administration's deal with Iyatola to keep hostages, to discredit Carter...to win the election- in exchange for weapons. It worked.) The Church Report (CIA), MK-Ultra, Montauk Project, Phidelphia Experiment, The Grace Report (Govt waste), San Jose Mercury News expose on CIA involvement in cocaine; MENA, Park-o- Meter (Arkansas); NAFTA, GATT, NWO, Savings & Loan Scam, Banking Crisis (never reported) Group 5, The Franklin Cover-Up, "Trance Formation of American', HAARP, Recent info released on the killing of Martin Luther King; Vince Foster; Ron Brown; Ruby Ridge, Donald Scott, WACO, the truth about Oklahoma City Bombing, TWA-800, recent reports on the environment (ice core samples, National Geographic report on "The Great Extinctions"); Global Heat Balance/Crazy weather world around; Area-51, the ET situation, Greys and Abductions. COX report on transfer of tech to China. (Please...don't pretend folks...we all hear the above reports) even if we turn our backs in dis-belief and return to our jobs, soap operas, etc...does not mean, 'these problems are not there'. Just take a look at the history of wars, slavery, conquering and domination. That IS planet Earth, and has been for quite some time.)"

You think I'm "disrupting" anything here? I'm unsuccessfully trying to disrupt our collective sleep walking...alright with you?? Or would you like to me to conform to the mindless Lemmings walking off the cliff together? Very little else got your attention, so rag away at me about what you don't like about how i don't conform to your expectations...ok? And just keep ignoring the above...and see where it gets us all.

What bothers you about 'me' is this: is that i have feelings about all this, but I think I do a pretty creative job of channeling them, WHAT i do with them, notice that?

You think I'm a "bland 1 color spectrum" person? How boring.

Yeah I'm pissed: at Trolls, at Drools, at Petty little People (only when they act that way)...at people who focus on the most trival issue, when they ignore MUCH BIGGER issues staring the right in the face. Or in other words:

"Most people are running around swatting at flies... when in reality they are being trampled by elephants."

Does that help put it all in perspective a little better?

Ask me any question you want, but most of them are answered in the existing threads, which I will NOT repost here...i think there are enough clue here and there.

No that we have dispensed with my "personality" Again, I ask you:

What do YOU think about *THE ISSUES?* that were brought up? Take your focus off this belly button analysis...and look at the world we are living in. How does it feel to "U"? Huh?

Fair enough? Get the 'Drift' yet?

-- Forget Me (ThinkAbout@YourWorld.OK?.com), January 24, 2000.

Hey Frank -- I think he just said "yes, yes", in potheadspeak.

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 24, 2000.


Tell me...your serious right? You read all the articles at the website...and THAT was your reply???

Hopless dude...

1) you say you/TB2000 are talking about a possilbe pending "oil crisis" (major HOT topic of discussion and concern right now...right?

2) you DON'T see the connection between INDUSTRIAL HEMP and its implication for energy ALONE? much less food, fiber, pulp, medicine.

3) Wazza matter Frank...afraid you've been conditioned and duped?

4) Suffer the consequences of your own denial, lack of curiosity, lack of interest, and lack of priorities...but don't think someone didn't put it right in front of your face.

5) I'll answer your question only in context:

A- Read Senator John DeCamps "The Franklin CoverUp"

B- Read "Trance Formation of America"

C- Read San Jose Mercury News series on "CIA and Cocaine"

D- See "Iran Contra: Cover-Up" Empowerment Project (VHS rental)

E- See "Shadow Government" (PBS - Bill Moyers)

F- Read "Global Dumping Ground" (Bill Moyers & Center for Investigative Studies)

G- Read "Hemp: Lifeline to The Future" (Chris Conrad)

H- Read "The Emperor Wears No Clothes" (Jack Herer)

G- See: PBS/Nova Documentary "The Cocaine Wars"

I- See: PBS Documentary "The Prize" (all oil questions answered)

J- See: Bill Still's "Capital Crimes: The Money Changers"

Now, Frank...I know you mean well, but why don't you go do your homework first *so we can have an intelligent discussion about all this* - and then and only then:

You tell me "Where the Drug Problem Is" All right?

Why would anyone care about my 2 cent opinion? Its the *information* genius...NOT ME.

I am not your problem, I am not your solution.


Now what do you want to focus on? Do you comprehend what all this means in terms of environment and human suffering??

Do you have children, or anyone, or anything you care about??? Use that as your reference, and quit using me as your distraction? Ok.

Or just say, "I really don't give a rats ass, and all the information in the world couldn't move me...."

Fair enough? get real man...people are dying...allright?

1) Industrial Hemp -


You tell me who has a drug problem Frank...Ok?

-- Nobody That (Don't Know@Nuthin.com), January 24, 2000.

Damn...maybe so...but, how can you tell? What do you think, Frank? Or, is Frank one of them, too, sluggo?

-- (2Weird@4.Me), January 24, 2000.

Hi Ron! nice to see your back with your devestating "1 liners". Really powerful stuff man! People are falling out of thier seats with your "indepth analysis of the news".


-- Not Ur Problem (Look@around.com), January 24, 2000.

2weird4me -

"Weird?" Compared to what? Try finishing your sentence...then I'll know what you are talking about. Out of your little circle? So it don't "fit"...so that's "weird". Brilliant construction of reasoning "Too Weird 4 Me".

thanks for being so honest...underline the "ME" in your name about 1,000 times...and you just answered your own statement(?) (for lack of a better phrase)

Give that man a blue star!!!

-- Weird (Its@All Relative.com), January 24, 2000.

Hey Weird!

U ever heard the saying, "One man's ceiling...is another Man's floor."


-- Looks (ThatWay2@you.huh?.com), January 24, 2000.

To ICEjust4U (ISee@PieceOCrap.com),

Ummm...you missed the point. I posted the message to Factfinder (it has your name on it) about the merits of civil behaviour to ask you if you are the same person posting the vitriol and flaming on this thread. And, now, you're calling me an idiot?

Yes, you (whether you're the same person or not) have trashed this thread. Please read the original thread again. Do you see the word "hemp" in it? No. What you see is a very thoughtful, well-done essay that Steve Baxter obviously spent time and effort to compose and present to this forum for discussion. That is followed by 30 or 40 posts from you, using different names, almost all of them having NOTHING to do with Steve Baxter's thread.

-- (ISee@ThruU.2), January 24, 2000.

the more precise word you are looking for is: "Quirky"


-- Petrone (TheyLive@WeDie.com), January 24, 2000.

Wow, I'm in awe.

Ever see that self-sustained chain reaction demonstration where they have a room that's wall-to-wall in mousetraps, each with a pingpong ball on top -- and then, they toss a single ball into the room and watch the reaction?

This is damned fine entertainment! I've never seen a virtual synapse fish-fry before!

The big question: will he self-destruct before he has to launder the hosiery?

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 24, 2000.

OH my God...are U serious?

"I Troll" is now going to get up on his moral platform of authority? He condones Trolls...trashing anything they see...? And now, you are putting forth this VERY CONVINCING, (because it is soooo sincere) attitude of "Oh! but now he's trashing MY Thread!!"

boo hoo hoo...snif...snif...

Why he's telling me (showing you actually) "Im not free to do ANYTHING i damn well please! Mommy!!!! Mommy!!!"

you are a sick joke. I told you I step on any Troll bug where ever I see them...didn't I? If you read my posts elsewhere...I told you if anyone slimes around justifying that behavior, I would tell my Truth...my Truth...not yours, not anybody elses...my Truth. Right?

So what are you complaining about? This whole discussion is about Trolls right? and what they do? Right?

And who brought up the Hemp issue???...

Are u completely out of it? From Above:

I remember Ron Schwartz' (sic?) "all hemp supporters are pot-heads" lines too, but when I thought about it, I couldn't think of anyone *I* knew who was for 'hemp' who WASN'T in truth also a "pot-head".

Is your experience different than mine, or do you just object to the term "pot-head"?

Calling grass green is not a stereotype,


-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.com), January 23, 2000.

So ummm.....who brought that up? And who asked? And who derailed this thread off onto some side track?

Weak...real weak.

Face it: you are incapable of addresssing any issue that goes beyond your own navel. Right?

There is a LOT of Power in that...huh? Deeply satisfying? Have nothing better to do? Go for it whimp. All you are doing is builing a paper trail. And you think that every person that reads this is stupid, and swayed by your one liners? Your fractured, disconnected trail of guck?

I know ur having fun...so am I. Believe it. It's one of the fastest ways to write a book. Not bad for two days....huh?

Show me...

-- Sock#23 (Mr.@Hat.com), January 24, 2000.

Sluggo, I think I just figured it out! This is Performance Art, and he's illustrating the subject of this thread!

-- (2Weird@4.Me), January 24, 2000.

Good one sluggo! ROFLAMO! Awesome dude......give us some more.

Now, we really should find some point where we can laugh at all this, so, I offer a momentary side trip which you may enjoy. I promise it is not a trap..ok?

Sluggo asked, "Are U Upset? Wanna Talk about it?"

yeah....i just trashed the Prime Minister of England. Wanna see?


I dunno .....u think I'm ALL bad? awwwww.....come on!

Have fun. Did i distrupt that thread too? I sowwwy Troll...i just follow your lead....so don't blame me.

Now, check it out..and tell which part of it is wrong...ok?

-- Can U Ever (HaveSome@FunToo?.com), January 24, 2000.

Hey Guyz...

All our little spats aside, (admit it, it gets us through another 24 hours right? Better than being bored to death...huh?)

Now: (Gulp)

Huge Oil Price Increases Imminent for Truckers, Airlines, and Homeowners


Ummmmm....i think there is a connection: It's time to look at industrial Hemp real close. No Joke dudes. Check it out.

And...(uh oh)

BAGHDAD (January 23, 2000 7:48 a.m. EST http://www.nandotimes.com) - Iraqi hospitals are close to collapse, a senior Red Cross official warned Sunday. A rehabilitation program is under way to try to stave off disaster. "The most important problem in our view in Iraq at the moment is the increasingly precarious situation of the public infrastructure,"

"More than 14,000 Iraqis died because of U.N. sanctions in December 1999, bringing the total number of embargo deaths to 1.26 million since 1990.

Of the 14,000 who died, nearly 6,500 were children under the age of 5. Most died as a result of chronic diarrhea, malnutrition and respiratory problems."


(Yeah Frank....I'm upset. For real. Do you have kids man? Any nieces or nephews??)

Guyz...can we give a break for a bit here? Maybe look at some bigger issues. Yeah, I really DO think we should take a look at Industrial Hemp. It *can* provide the fuel, food, fiber, paper pulp, medicine...yeah. For Real.

How much worse is it going to have to get, before we start doing what makes sense? Before we act on what is right in front of our faces?

Yeah...ummm...I think that is what the issue is. Don't you? Clue me in if I'm off on that one, ok?

Truce....? Alot of good conversation came out of all this, really, and THAT's what counts. (God i hope so) But there are bigger issues. I can only fight or be upset so long before it's not fun any more. Check out the above threads.

No, it is NOT off topic to discuss Industrial Hemp and it's potential for SOLVING the 'oil crisis'.

Why...like i said before...people are dying because of it? Is that important? To who? Compared to what?

you see now?

-- NotAJoke (Any@More.com), January 24, 2000.

Sluggo Sez: ever wonder what Serdar Argic on Crack would look like?

See above, see above...

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 24, 2000.


Well, all I can say is, "Why don't you kiss my ass and make it a love story."

What a chump...

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 24, 2000.

2Weird -- I don't think the troll can help himself. Think "OCD". In spades.

He's not illustrating it, he _embodies_ it.

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 24, 2000.

No Troll - I have a longer attention span that you do. I write for myself..it's excellent therapy, and it a damn site better than your brand of insanity.

Now, how prophetic...no? thought you had just dissappeared, to was writing to Steve Baxter. Here's the book you were dreaming of. Man, you are so fast!! Awesome.

Here we go (again)!

=================== Steve: (baxter)

Well bozo me...I thought you were serious. When I read:

"No I, troll, find subjects with which I do *not* share concern and live there instead. Why, you ask? Simple. My main purpose in life is not to discuss and have reasonable, intelligent conversation with like-minded people. My purpose is simply to tell those with whom I *disagree* just how stupid they really are. And they deserve every bit of it!

I exist solely to stifle debate. To end discussion of topics I don't agree with. To stop people from even *talking* about a subject that I don't personally approve of, and if you think I am exaggerating just watch me cheer every time I manage to ridicule or harass someone out of a group! I will do everything in my power to bring it to a halt once and for all. I am a Troll.

If you only knew me, you would know that I am a person who tolerates even the most bizarre, dishonest, unethical and immoral behavior the world has to offer and I am the first person to say so to everyone I meet. The only thing I don't tolerate is opposition to my point of view.

"I am not like most people. I do not find groups that speak to subjects with which I agree and people with whom I share a common concern. No I, troll, find subjects with which I do *not* share concern and live there instead. Why, you ask? Simple. My main purpose in life is not to discuss and have reasonable, intelligent conversation with like-minded people. My purpose is simply to tell those with whom I *disagree* just how stupid they really are. And they deserve every bit of it!"

================================================= Taken literally...pretty scary huh? Just shows you how well you stepped into their mind, their mode, their "twist". (Get that Trolls?)

So, I hope my "reactions" makes sense...nothing to apologize for if you understand how I read it. Yeah, up too many hours. Yeah, sick of people doing Troll dumps - EXACTLY as you described...

But more so, SICK of having anyone *justify it*!? Sorry man, I see red when that happens, and i know my instincts are not 'off' on that one. And that is what I thought your essay on Trolls was about.

Obviously, you can see from how this thread has continued...It didn't make a dent. Anyway, here goes.

So, I'd have to say....slow though I am at times...truly brilliant expose...AND, I don't mind the "seeming side trip" or what 'came out of me'.

Yeah, I meant everything i said to David = FactFinder thread. But don't no real Troll ever think I am going to sit back forever with their crap...ok? I don't come out of the saddle for "no reason at all". I'll cut slime slack for about up to the 90% line. They have had their share...after that..."Lets Dance...and see what comes out of it."

And i think doing just that...is what "quickened" some of the recent spot light on Trolls...the real ones, the one's that really do damage.

Yes, you bet i get upset, but it is not "anger to punish"...it is focused anger that draws a line: "This is NOT what I am about..." Big difference; do you get the distinction?

So hats off to you; and i don't care where any conversation might go, as long as it comes around; I'll know I'll be there on the back side. Gives me a whole lot more freedom...to be real.

Not just nice, soggy, stand for nothing, double standards like what Frank was sucking into. That crap is not real...not at all. Had too much experience to 'doubt' what my gut is telling me. Rarely is *that* wrong.

What is wrong..is when I ignore it, and not allow it, and not trust that it is seeing what is there. Sounds very subjective to say that, i know, but my experience shows me it is so. I screw up when I don't listen to that part of myself.

Being "nice" is a conscious decision; it works 90% of the time. In some circumstances, it is phony BS. It is not being real or truthful.

Look at me in the long run, look at the overall, look at all that is there. All of that is a *part* of me. I have no trouble seeing that in others; I hope there are others that can recognize that as well in me.

Its called (as best as one can) "Being a Whole Person". Anger is there for a reason, its one of the few things which can focus a person enough to cut through the BS. Natural reaction...but not something to get stuck on; or only have that one channel available.

Enough on all this. I just hope some Troll doesn't read your above...and go, "Yeah dude! That's it!" and use it to justify what they are already doing. If they were that bright, they wouldn't be doing it in the first place.

I'm *glad* i reacted the way I did (instinct about the issues, what was said literally). That's a good thing if you understand. I was severely abused as a child; yes...I'm very sensitive to someone taking out their crap on me...or anyone frankly.

If they want to speak with conviction, focus, from there heart...get made about something they care about..i say, "Fine...good for you."

If they want to use their anger to harass others, hurt them, tear them down..i will be nice for the first 90%. If they keep going, i will drop the pretense and the social crap...and cut to the chase.

Some people understand this, others do not. There is not one way to "be" in all situations. It is what is appropriate for the specific situation that counts; that is what i know and believe. Someone with true intention will not get 'too far off track' before they pull it back in.

A troll just keeps punishing, and punishing...no humor, no fun, no break, no Heart, no insight...that is why they are so transparent; and how you can tell someone who is being real...from a complete fake.

What Factfinder said was real...it takes guts to do what he did; someone would have to care inside to come to that. A troll NEVER gets to that point.

I hope all this makes sense. I don't give a rats ass to come down to someone's level of short attention span, where nothing is important, where nothing counts, where everything is dispensed with a 1-2 line quippy throw away line...I won't buy into that game.

If someone can't read, or focus-up...I can't do anything about their not being curious; or not caring. I am not here (nor is anyone) here to "entertain" them, or speak in a way where "One size fits all 9- 13" That is just a bowl of wet oatmeal...no distinction about anything.

Not all will agree with, nor like all of what they see "in me" (they think/projection) but at least I trust enough to be open, to be full, to be as real as I can, and i don't have some hidden agenda or some sick need to hurt people. That i know. People that know me, Steve, know that.

And I don't let people yank my chain too many times...before I will respond and tell them exactly what I think. And I have found the real people zero in on what is important, and they are not so anal that they cannot see "why" I do what i do...a lot of care behind all that energy...I won't buy into their trite characterizations..and yes, depending on the mood I'm in, I'll "play at their level for a bit, stir crap up, see what comes out of them.." but not to f_K with somebody, not to hurt them, maybe cut through the crap...yes. Maybe given them enough rope to hang themself, and see where they take it...but never to 'stay there' or leave it there.

As maybe you can see if you have read this far. I care, yes, but I don't care that much about what others will "think" of me per se, not to "please" them.

I know, I have seen that real people "get it" and the phonies, sooner or later, either run, disappear, or shut up. If there is such a thing as a Troll...don't think there is not something that resembles an "Anti-Troll" that is just as real as their "sh_t is". Does that make sense?

Not on a crusade here, but no...I won't stand for what Ron Schwarz did, or anyone who justifies his crap, as you can obviously see in my "mis-reading" your insightful parody/satire on "I Troll"

And so, the proof always is in the end...and here it is. Cause no uncaring, empty sot would ever go to the trouble to write all this...huh?

You don't see Ron or the Trolls going on a long discourse about ANYTHING...that takes being real, open, and thoughtful..and as you said, they are scared sh_tless inside.

yeah...no lie....it shows all over. So I hope you feel this brings the original thread back on track from where it started, cause the whole trip above is one big circle the way I look at things.

Ron...just so you know...its EASY to flow like this? Ok? Its not hard at all; can write/type out all this in 20+/- minutes...it just comes. So Don't worry your little head thinking "Oh...he writes 'too long'. This is absolutely NOTHING compared to compiling and editing 6 books...ok? Believe it.

And I meant what i said before...we could have been friends dude...did you ever stop to think about that? You gonna come back and trash someone for saying that too? Want me to pull my hosiery up, or whatever other discard remark you want to use?

Time does tell..doesn't it? And you really can tell in the end, can't you? And what's real ...does show in the long run...huh? And you can't read just one chapter in a book, and "get" what the plot or the Story is about...huh?

And so here it is Trolls.

Your Turn. Go for it...and take it someplace, ok?

As they say, "doors open...you're on stage..."

What U got to say about all this? Remember, silence is both deafening and 'incriminating', i.e. you see what you are really dealing with.

Thanks for those that wrote this far...yea its late; yea I'm tired...and so tomorrow is another day.


PS. Steve Baxter....awesome paper...';very clean'. Could'a fooled me.... and it did. (smile)

fOOKER!!!! (lol)

-- Steve (Likes2@Play.com), January 24, 2000.

You shore talk a lot!

Now if only you _said_ something...

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 24, 2000.

It's the sleep that rots from within Ron...never forget that.

3 hours, 3 days, 3 months...one never knows when they are going to meet The Synchronicity of Thier Life. That's why i don't have to do anything. Don't even have to wish that on you. You will meet 'your SELF' one of these days, when u least expect it. Nobody has to do anything, for wherever you go Troll, that's where u find yourself...and that is punishment enough."

Please don't misunderstand the above, its not a threat; I don't wish bad for you. Its just a fact of Life. Understand? That's all.

(ahhh, now i repeat myself, but it's always good for Dreaming, huh?)

Here, this is the same idea, in another form:


Here's another story that really got my attention: (Remember Ron, all this is for the 'Silent Audience'...remember? You can pick up on it if you wish.)

"Once upon a time....there was a Man Of Knowledge, A Yaqui Sorcerer, and this is what he had to say:

"Most Men never stop to ask themself, "Does this path have a Heart?"

A path with Heart is joyful, spontaneous and uplifting. It has depth and meaning for those who travel it Fully; it is easy; it lures you onward.

A path without Heart? It it joyless; it is empty; it makes you struggle all the way.

Most men never pause to ask themself, "Does this Path have a Heart?" And about the time they realize they are not on a path with Heart...that path is about to gobble them alive."

And so Carlos, always...remember to pause. Ask yourself, "Does this path have a Heart??"

Don Juan Matus / Yaqui Indian

[End] =====================================================


"There I go...in Awe...looking, looking, breathlessly..."

Don Juan Matus / Yaqui Indian


Chief Seattle; speaking to the US Government during the Indian resettlement program:

"I have heard talk and talk and talk

but little or nothing is done;

good words do not last long

unless they amount to something.


Words do not pay for my dead people...

they do not pay for my country...

they do not protect my Father's grave.

Good words do not give me back my Children.

Good words will not give my people good health

or stop them from dying.


I am tired of talk that comes to nothing

It makes my Heart sick

when i remember all the good words

and all the broken promises."

============================================================ BAGHDAD (January 23, 2000 7:48 a.m. EST http://www.nandotimes.com)

Iraqi hospitals are close to collapse, a senior Red Cross official warned Sunday. A rehabilitation program is under way to try to stave off disaster. "The most important problem in our view in Iraq at the moment is the increasingly precarious situation of the public infrastructure,"

"More than 14,000 Iraqis died because of U.N. sanctions in December 1999, bringing the total number of embargo deaths to 1.26 million since 1990.

Of the 14,000 who died, nearly 6,500 were children under the age of 5. Most died as a result of chronic diarrhea, malnutrition and respiratory problems."


Now...as you requested...is that "saying something?"

PS. Ron (sluggo@yourHead)

'Go to bed. Go to sleep. Wake-up in your Dream.'

-- SRM - Nobody2U (CanU@SEE?.com), January 24, 2000.

Hey, Mo Ju

You can know all this, and turn your back? And you think Industrial Hemp has nothing to do with any of this? And you think this is "off topic" from Steve Baxters stunning essay on "I Troll"?

Why don't you go back to the top of this thread, and replace the word "Troll" with "Politician" or "Greedy Business Man"...and you tell me if what Baxter identifed doesn't just nail it for *all the issues*.

You think there is any difference at ALL between the lable "Troll", "Twisted Politician", "Obscenely Greedy Business Man"?

Baxter nailed The Principle of it...notice that? That in the same way you can ignore, ignore, ignore EVERTHING Troll, no matter what the cost to Human Life, or other species, no matter how intelligent or well reasoned...does not matter to you or those of your kind Mo Ju.

Go read the *Hemp articles* at http://www.bashar.com/GSP/door- solution.htm and then come back and tell me how "off topic" ANY of this is to the 'oil news'...and the "Iraq situation". uh huh.

Real funny man...it's all "entertainment" right? Dont mean a thing, right 'big guy' ?

See if you can, for once in your life, answer that from a place of sincerity, alright?

See if you can face yourSelf in the Mirror knowing all this? Ok?

Go figure it out for yourSelf Ron Schwarz (AKA: Frank, ISeeThrU.too, Sluggo@yourHead, 2Weird@4Me.com, etc., because if you we're NOT hiding behind those socks, well, everyone all ready knows who U aRe...Huh? You read those threads, didn't you?

The reason you can't help yourself from coming back is because you can't get enough of what you are not, and what you will never be able to take from another. But it facinates you...doesn't it.

Did Baxter remember to include that part too? Maybe I missed that part.

Steve & "MiKeY 6th Grade"

-- SRM (Beyond@Gone.com), January 24, 2000.

Congrats Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com),

You just showed us what a troll looks like. Posting as all theses voices.

You need help, and not the kind available here. I suggest you stop it. Here and on other threads in this forum.

A TBY2K Sysop

 SRM (Beyond@Gone.com) on 2000-01-24: Response to I, Troll
 SRM - Nobody2U (CanU@SEE?.com) on 2000-01-24: Response to I, Troll
 Steve (Likes2@Play.com) on 2000-01-24: Response to I, Troll
 NotAJoke (Any@More.com) on 2000-01-24: Response to I, Troll
 Can U Ever (HaveSome@FunToo?.com) on 2000-01-24: Response to I, Troll
 Sock#23 (Mr.@Hat.com) on 2000-01-24: Response to I, Troll
 Petrone (TheyLive@WeDie.com) on 2000-01-24: Response to I, Troll
 Looks (ThatWay2@you.huh?.com) on 2000-01-24: Response to I, Troll
 Weird (Its@All Relative.com) on 2000-01-24: Response to I, Troll
 Not Ur Problem (Look@around.com) on 2000-01-24: Response to I, Troll
 Nobody That (Don't Know@Nuthin.com) on 2000-01-24: Response to I, Troll
 Forget Me (ThinkAbout@YourWorld.OK?.com) on 2000-01-24: Response to I, Troll
 ICE just4u (ISee@PieceOCrap.com) on 2000-01-23: Response to I, Troll
 Nobody (Nobody@Nowhere.com) on 2000-01-23: Response to I, Troll
 ICE likes Gravy (ISee@ThruU.com) on 2000-01-23: Response to I, Troll
 ICE just4u (IMake@Mistakes2.com) on 2000-01-23: Response to I, Troll
 ICE just4u (OneWho@Knows.com) on 2000-01-23: Response to I, Troll
 ICE just4u (UR@SpotOn.com) on 2000-01-23: Response to I, Troll
 ICE just4u (ISee@ThruU.com) on 2000-01-23: Response to I, Troll
 ICE (ISee@ThruU.com) on 2000-01-23: Response to I, Troll
 ICE just4u (UR@SpotOn.com) on 2000-01-23: Response to I, Troll
 ICE just4U (ISee@ThruU.com) on 2000-01-23: Response to I, Troll
 ICE just4U (ISee@ThruU.com) on 2000-01-23: Response to I, Troll
 ICE just4U (ISee@ThruU.com) on 2000-01-23: Response to I, Troll
 ICE Just4U (ISee@ThruU.com) on 2000-01-23: Response to I, Troll
 ICE Just4U (ISee@ThruU.com) on 2000-01-23: Response to I, Troll

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), January 24, 2000.

-- Sock#23 (,

You wrote,

"Are u completely out of it? From Above:

I remember Ron Schwartz' (sic?) "all hemp supporters are pot-heads" lines too, but when I thought about it, I couldn't think of anyone *I* knew who was for 'hemp' who WASN'T in truth also a "pot-head".

Is your experience different than mine, or do you just object to the term "pot-head"?

Calling grass green is not a stereotype,


-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.com), January 23, 2000.

So ummm.....who brought that up? And who asked? And who derailed this thread off onto some side track?

Weak...real weak.

Face it: you are incapable of addresssing any issue that goes beyond your own navel. Right?

There is a LOT of Power in that...huh? Deeply satisfying? Have nothing better to do? Go for it whimp. All you are doing is builing a paper trail. And you think that every person that reads this is stupid, and swayed by your one liners? Your fractured, disconnected trail of guck?

I know ur having fun...so am I. Believe it. It's one of the fastest ways to write a book. Not bad for two days....huh?

Show me...

-- Sock#23 ("

If you read back you'll note ICE4u originally brought up the hemp issue. If you'll look at your own post YOU wrote "Are u completely out of it?" and "Face it: you are incapable of addresssing any issue that goes beyond your own navel. Right?"

Do you believe this contributes to intelligent discussion or attempts to convey a point of any kind (other than being a trollish ad hominem attack in itself)?

When you ask a question people will be more inclined to answer it.

Also, 3 points: 1. Etoh causes ~25k fatalities yearly in auto accidents alone, if pot were legalized the odds are a new population of abusers would hit the roads and raise this, not to mention od's etc. I think this outweighs industrial applications at this point. 2. I want some basic honesty from people. If your goal is to legalize pot say so. Trying to hide behind some other issue makes me distrust what you have to say even if you're verbose about it. 3. Answer the prior post's 2 questions, you can't discuss an honest discussion if YOU are being evasive and/or lying.

Very disappointed,


-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.com), January 24, 2000.

Diane, I'm just curious how you found out Steve Meyers was also posting as Ice. I figured they were one and the same the other day when I read the thread where he and Ron Shwarz (sp?)went at it. Meyers and Ice write identically. Same personality. Is that what tipped you off? Or was it womens intuition?

ps I've always pictured you as about 35, blond and really hot! It adds spice to this already interesting forum.


-- Curious (Justhangingout@"the bomb".com), January 24, 2000.

Not to digress, but what's "etoh"?

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 24, 2000.

Well, I guess the jokes on me. When "Sock#23" was complaining about my response to "ICE just4u" I thought there was more than one person who shared a similar viewpoint. My mistake, hopefully not to be repeated.

Thanks Diane,


P.S. If my prior post looks slightly disjointed, it's (partially) because I was trying to do two things at once, and ended up doing both poorly. -F

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.com), January 24, 2000.


ETOH = ethyl alcohol or ethanol, the "active ingredient" in our favorite alcoholic beverages. :) Sorry for the shorthand.


-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.com), January 24, 2000.

Ah, makes sense now.

All I could think of was "C. Itoh", an old printer mfgr from Japan -- which made *no* sense at all... (Of course, I've been up all night and half the day (not to mention the day before) writing software reviews for my magazine publisher -- past deadline -- so I'm just a tad exhausted.)

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 24, 2000.

Gee Frank...Im really dissapointed in your too. I guess we are even.

First, who are you to ask ANY personal questions about my life?? Or anyone else? And for what purpose? Once you had this information, What would it mean to you?

Second, did you read any of the material on the web site? Has it dawned on your that "POT" and "INDUSTRIAL HEMP" are two compeltely different "strains" of the same plant? Do you know what a chemical isomer is Frank? And idea of the difference in chemical reactivity and effect, brain receptors? Is this helping you understand?

Different name? Oh yes, Sysop suggested i stop posting under real name Frank...did you see that one? Because of how many nuts are on this board?

You are upset at me Frank? Thats not a nice thing to say? Wanna express your feelings about it? I don't think this forum is any place to express feelings Frank...about anything. Not Iraq, not the environment...let's just "think" about it, right?

You want to outlaw all forms of Hemp? Because of one form? Frank, do you know that you can't smoke Industrial Hemp and get "high" except a headache? Ever read the studies??

Did you know Frank, who is "oh so concerned" about people dying...that there are over 400,000 deaths a year from prescription drugs? Care to see how many alcohol deaths there are a year? Domestic violence incidents? Do you know what the statistics are for alcohol being involved in murder, rape, beatings? Do you really care about any of that Frank? Of course not...because you don't pursue those issues.

Now, you can win $10,000 (anybody can) if you can find one death attributed to "pot" alone Frank? Ever heard of a death Frank? That's been a standing offer for years Frank. How come no one has never picked up the money yet?

Frank...is that your real name? Ron had so many hats on, and your thinking process so closely resembled his (ignoring truly important issues, staying down with the little issues, but blind to the larger issues...Im sorry Frank, I thought you were Ron..I couldn't tell the difference. How does anyone know who they are talking to here Frank?

You noticed two different names did you? Did you notice miKeY Frank? Huh? Does it really matter what anyone's "sock" is in here Frank, compared to the content of what is being shared, the information, the construction of reasoning? What about those things Frank?

Why should I dignify you with any answer to anything Frank? You haven't answered any of my questions...so, like, you know...who are you Frank. Anyone can see who I am...that's pretty clear. Don't you think that's kind of hypocritical Frank...to just ask any question you want, but ignore those put to you? What makes you think you have a "right" to do that Frank?

How can you call that, "I can't have a discussion with Steve?" and characterize it like that Frank, when you can't even do some basic reading on information which is readily available, that the very nature of your questions shows you really don't have any idea what so ever about the subject, except the opinions of what you have heard tossed around. Frank, did you know that there was a consistent, concerted effort on the part of the Hearst to "yellow journalize" marijuana...that has been fully documented? Have you seen the Govenment propaganda films that were completely fabricated to scare little unthinking minds into NOT understanding the difference between the two strains? Looks like it worked Frank, huh? Cause you are continuing to spout off the very mis-information which was fed to you? And now, you are proud of it? And it couldn't stand the light of day or close examination, by doctors, research scientists, goverment studies, Surgeon General's reports...are you that smart Frank..that you can dismiss all that out of hand, as you pursuse this meaning less inquiry of yours? You are not interested in learning anything Frank, I see little difference *in what has been shown here* between how Ron handles himself..I'm sorry I can't see any difference.

Maybe you are a wonderful guy Frank, for all I know...what get all hung up on your "POT" theory..when that is not even in the ball park Frank. What purpose does that serve Frank?

Are you genuinly interested in getting to the bottom of what is known about this entire subject Frank? You know, sorting the myth from the fact...so we can come away with what is useful for all to understand Frank?

Even if you knew all this...so what. It that for your intellectual satiation? What if what I were saying Frank, were true. Then what?

You can have industrail hemp Frank...and you can keep your 'POT' illegal...did you know that? Does that mean anything to you? Shouldn't that be something 'satisfying' to know Frank, because you are oh so concerned about all those people getting hurt.

But if someone told you studies have been done to show that we could solve world hunger...would that matter to you?

Here's a real question Frank: What do you care about? Do you care that people are dying because this is being withheld Frank? Or is that too frightening for you to face up to, that the primary reason it is "illegal" is BECAUSE of its economic implications?

Did you see that Popular Science magazine which predicted hemp to be the first Billion Dollar Crop? Does that tell you anything about how much that plant was in use, before it was "outlawed".

Frank, I can tell by your questions that you are not sincere..because every single one of these issues have been addressed in detail at the site Frank...this is just the tip of the ice berg.

So you know what Frank...I don't believe you. I think when you can ignore information that has a direct consequence for people's well being, and you have no concern about that, to even find out...you tell me Frank, how could I believe you care about anything, with sincerity? Isn't is all just sort of a ploy to appear informed...to the uninformed Frank?

Where's your curiosity Frank?

You know what I mean? Now, since you want these "burning questions of yours answered, why dont you show everyone how its done Frank...ok? So you dont look like a hypocrite? So you are not asking others to do something you are not willing to do yourself?

Don't you think that this entire forum is a joke, "Oh! this oil Report! look! Oh! THAT oil report...oh my!" And, you say there is a shortage? Frank, do you know that, if i remember correctly..i might be wrong on the particular...but i can go back and get the details...do you know either Govt and/or University estimated that less that 6% of our landmass growing INDUSTRIAL HEMP (did you notice, i didn't say HIGH THC POT frank?) that 6% of land mass could replace (now pay attention Frank..cause you want to know, right?)...could replace 100% Oil, Natural Gas and Nuclear Energy?

It could feed and clothe the world Frank. Does THAT matter..or are you just another well fed sot that could give a rats ass because you have no Heart? Or Care? Thats a QUESTION Frank...you have to answer that.

Did you know that INDUSTRIAL HEMP makes the archivest's "perfect paper" Frank? Ethanol....what do they use in top fuel Dragsters Frank? Huh? Why do you think they choose that? Are they stupid too Frank? Did you know HEMP produces one of the finest machinest's oil? They are stupid too, huh? Because you "think" so Frank...or because you KNOW so? Then show us your studies...I have all the info and links at my website Frank. Where's your supporting documentation Mr. Emperical Scientist that is looking for "FACTS"? Just show me, ok?

Did you know that 1 acre of hemp can outproduce 4 acrea of timber in pulp production Frank...you know...for paper, bio-mass fuel?

How much longer do you want this to go on Frank? Steve Baxter nailed 'em all Frank. Remember?

"My main purpose in life is not to discuss and have reasonable, intelligent conversation with like-minded people. My purpose is simply to tell those with whom I *disagree* just how stupid they really are."

Is that enough to get the discussion going Frank? Is that respectful enough?

Now, Diane...who was it that said, "Troll Patrol" "Do not use your real name Steve"? Did i miss understand? Prolly.

Ummm, I thought that is what "socks" meant? What i noticed very early on, in my first thread was, if I used "steve"...Ron just climed down my thoat, just hearing that name....huh?

but when I used another name, he didn't...what does that show? What is one supposed to do in that case? I'm a newbie here. And pretty much what I have seen is nobody uses their name? or did I miss something? So who knows who is who? really?

Do you feel, with all that i have said, that i used different names to deceive? Or, was that just part of the conversation as clear as day? you know, the "Ron & Steve Volley Ball Name" Perhaps I am dense in some ways, in fact, I am sure of it... Now, seriusly you think someone could not figure out the 'drift'? And that they felt deceived and confused by the flow of the conversation. just to let you know, i truly thought that was very obvious, because I had several people pick right up on it...they got it.

Now, what i just said is true..and, if it truly confused someone, fine..I will not do that. I really thought the "Nobody@(you fill in the blanks) were all quite clear. I see a ton of them all over the board.....so? No prob. Truly no ill intent meant here?

I hope you saw where I made that quite clear about MiKeY 6th grade...yes? So, if that is the rule or what works best...please say so. I was confused..I did sign on my real name....then i used it..and everytime i spoke...Ron just dumped (what Steve Baxters) thread was about..right? Then, someone posted to me "Troll Patrol" assumed was sysop/admin; clearly made a case to me "do NOT use your real name. Yes? Then I see Ron and a few others switching "hats"...so, truly...I did not know.

Now if i was hiding something (i wasn't; i hope you can see that here) thats one thing. If i was screwing with people under different names...that's another. I wasn't, certainly didn't *intend* to.

So if that is clear, what would you suggest? I just start from scratch new name, hidden? How can I 'proceed' when Ron and other Trolls can just snipe and snipe...AT ME...right? How does that work?

Im open to any suggestion...sincerely.

So, the two issues here:

The situation with Frank and being me being accused of "off topic"? He asked the "POT" questions, brought up Ron in the other thread...its all there to see. Now I see a direct connection between what Steve Baxter talked about "the Essence of What Troll Do"...and so, I answered.

Because what Steve Baxter talked about what Trolls do is almost 100% identical to what happened whey anyone tries to have a rational discussion about Industrail Hemp. Should I say, Sorry Frank, that is off topic...go start another thread? and not answer him?

I swear to God, I thought that was Ron. OK....? Because his, focus on "POT Head"...then asking me if I was a POT HEAD. Should I start asking him about his sex life, or yours? Isn't that beyond "off topic"? Isn't that exactly what Steve Baxter identified..direct connection? Direct example of it in action?

The "POT HEAD" issue was the exact thing that Ron derailed my first thread on? huh? The whole Carl Sagan "Baloney Detector" thread was about "scientist argues with facts, let the INFORMATION speak for itself, not the personality. So to me...all this is as straight as an arrow in my mind...ON Topic more than most would imagine.

Is this an excuse, or defense? No...it's saying exactly what it looked like from my end of the fish bowl.

On majority of threads on this forum one can see someone open a discussion, and the next response or two is already off on a side issue, diluting the opening subject. Looks like a shark tank in here, is honest impression to me. That's ok. Trolls bonk people...I tried to be nice, over and again, apologized, asked legitimate questions, and they are just ignored...like on all kinds of threads.

nothing happened until i "bonked" back, and i tried to do it with intelligence, and 'dance with them at their level'. I noticed anytime i sincerely was 'nice' or laughed with them...it confused them. They just left, after a trail of turds and confusion. Kinda lously i think; leaves a person feeling emotionally ripped off. That's ok; i get over it; I learn. No hard feelings that have to be held onto. But that is not what Ron or Frank is doing...just look at the focus of their responses, no matter what was said, Iraq.

It's like what Steve Baxter said, it does not matter WHAT one does, they can pot shot any way they want; they get off on that. I thought this was just letting them go, and lay thier own paper trail..so every one could see. THAT is what I trust in all this, the PROCESS...the overview; what the all of it looks like as a whole.

Now that's about it... and if I'm doing something that is so out there...well, i reall did take my cue from reading many other threads, and people are getting trashed and ignored, and insulted, and swearing all over. I really didn't think I was outside the bounds of what goes on here, and if it is, i can show you how fast I can change...ok? Its no prob to me.

I had one thing in mind: I KNOW this planet is dying...ok? And there is critical information on problems, and solutions. And i thought (big mistake) that that would mean something on this forum. But i am finding out very quickly it is more of a 'discussion - talk' forum...very, very informal. I can see that by what people focus on, what they respond to, the direction the conversation goes in. More so, what is ignored and just pretend like it is not there. And that is exactly "why" these problems are not seen, OR the solutions...and it does look very hypocritical to see all the posts on "Oh my God! Look at what is happening to the price of Oil!!!". But nobody has even a slight interest in something which could replace all of it? And we are not even talking the environmental implications, or its implications for 25,000 children starving to death everyday..and that doesn't "matter"? But Franks 'projections of deaths by marijuana drivers in a year...couldn't match how many kids die. And that is suppoesed to be a sincere conversation? I dont see it...sorry. Yes, its upsetting. yes, what Ron and others have done is upsetting.

And i think if you talk to humans about all we are denying about everyting, at every level...well, they attack the messenger, and throw out the message.

And that is what i honestly see, and it seems very insincere, and very uncaring...and insane. And i see no difference between that, and what Steve Baxter laid out above. It ALL THE SAME ONE THING:

1) Our capacity to ignore

2) Our capacity to trivialize

3) Our capacity to not care

4) Our capacity to cut down each other, rather than move to something higher...its like we all know it, but are afraid of it...more than our planet dying, more than children suffering unnecessarily, more than caring about what this is going to lead to for future generations.

So that really scares me at times, makes me feel sad and like crying at times, makes me feel frustrated and even angry...but i don't stay there. I don't stat stuck like Ron, or like Frank..who i sense is a very insincere person, judging by what he says and focuses on, and ignores. I think he can play, and posture, and act all day...but I'd put my money on it that he is not "threaded"...not when he can ignore all that is in this thread, and in my other threads.

So, if this is not basically an 'open public forum' which i thought it was. Ok..no prob. I'll learn. And i dont think ive done any 'un=repairable damage'....and yes, I ALSO did hope that out of all the people on this forum, that someone might be able to 'get the drift' and see what is at the website, and remember that i said, 'That's only 5%...wanna see the rest?"

I dont think so Diane...at least not yet. And Im learning alot about people here...very rapidly. Very fast education. But Im not a mean person, and im not dumb. I don't mindlessly conform to mindless people that do not have a heart, and i do pay attention to Baxter's and Zog and alot of other truly fine, intelligent people...because that can't be faked, and i know it.

Hope this has been an educational show for all in the audience, and that in some of it, there might have been something of value that would help us move towards a more sane, humane and sustainable world. For us...yes. But more so for all the other species that cannot even speak to say, "Please don't do that to our world" and the same goes for all the kids that know better than us adults, and all the Children of future generations who cannot speak.

If that is not clear through out all of this...then, there prolly is very little hope for us...and that makes me a naive fool in the eyes of many.

But at least i know i tried...and i got to my Death with that..which is something more than what many have, and that's a fact.

Steve Meyers

Global Strategies Project


Its your world too...do whatever you wish to do with it.

And Frank, if you are sincere....please consider some of the questions above, because i meant everything i said about industrail hemp...every single thing. The information is there...use it? Ok?


-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 24, 2000.

Steve Baxter,

Somehow all you said seems to have been lost in this...but it just seems that way. I think what you wrote is one of the most brilliant things i have seen on TB2000.

And I think your paper is profound, because if we were to replace "the net effect of governments"(?) then your paper had made it very clear they type of people we have in office. I think you hit an absolute bulls eye. I think your paper contains so much insight..it could be applied to how people respond to the environment, whether they are straight, or drunk on alcohol, or drunk on money or religion...i think people would be missing the depth of your paper to not see that "Trolls are everywhere...in everyway"

And I think the public sits back on all those issues, and on world hunger, and on the implications of industrial hemp...and your paper shows that people WILL just sit back and watch like its a televsion show, or a nintendo game to be played with...and that those that sit back and allow this here, are no different than thos who sit back and allow all that in the world. Is see very little difference. And that's honest.

I think very few will read your paper and see it for how revealing, how far reaaching it truly is. And i think there are Trolls in government, and in international finance, and in the media, and in hollywood. You truly nailed it dude...big time. But they don't see that, not really. Cause if they did, youd hear them saying it, and making the connections to how far reaching what you said truly is.

And i really thought, in my mind that ALL this, every turn of this thread related...and that's true. And I just want to personally thank you, because you really did a major service for everyone. And i think they should read and re-read everything you said...and I'm really glad you are there Steve...and that there are other people like you, like Zog...other people who are really reaching down inside themSelf to say something that means something...like what Chief Seattle said above "Words that amount to something..."

Thanks guy...you send me anything you want or anytying you write anytime...ok? Cause I'll learn something worth knowing, and I know what you did can't be faked. It coming from someplace real...and that is quite rare.

Everybody should read your paper, and I nominate it for one of the finest threads on TB2000..because it cuts to the very Heart of the matter. Doesn't matter how fast our computers are, if we can't think, or feel, or know what to apply them to that means something for humanity. But that's just what i think.

It was so good...it scared the shit out of me. Cause I thought who ever wrote it - was serious. No biggy, cause look what happened and what came out of al of it. Know what i mean?

Best to you always, truly brillant...Man.

Steve Meyers

(not every single individual within them"..but those that have the determining influence on all of us) Well, I think you essay

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 24, 2000.

"You are upset at me Frank?"

You're a year early, HAL.

(But the likeness is uncanny...)

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 24, 2000.


Steve, it's 'interesting' that you get so worked up about hemp. The nature of your posts suggests that you also might be just a little worked up due to....oh, I dunno....maybe....amphetamines?

Please....get some help.

-- I'm (just@peaceloving.grandmother), January 24, 2000.

Whoever, I won't bother with the rest of your verbal diarrhea, but when you said,

"Now, you can win $10,000 (anybody can) if you can find one death attributed to "pot" alone Frank?"

Can I win $10k for finding a fatal traffic accident where the driver who caused it was under the influence of marijuana? If so, where do I apply? Or in order to win does someone have to be, say, crushed by a bale of pot falling from some smuggler's airplane? BTW who actually HAS the 10k? what does one need to do to win? Sounds like an urban myth, propagated by pot-heads.



-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.com), January 24, 2000.

See: "Emperor Wears No Clothes" (at your local book store) contact: Jack Herer; or contact him directly. Herer should know the individual, (if not Jack himself who made that offer)...but he would know. Perhaps i was not clear enough. I believe the offer was to prove that anyone had died from Cannibis toxicity; or overdose.

I actually do not know if that offer is still open; but I am 100% sure it was offered for many years. So, if you are truly interested; I think Jack Here still lives in Van Nuys, California (last I heard). All you need to do is show certified medical proof; autopsy that anyone has ever died from POT itself...got it? Make sense?

See Frank...people who don't do "anything" die in car accidents...dont they? So what does that prove, that non-intodicated people are a driving risk too? What should we do about that problem? You get the distinction Frank?

Frank...you have your views, your beliefs keep them...ok? You win. Alright?

Now, would you care to get back on topic...? I think this is about the third or fourth time you have derailed it off onto a silly side topic that has nothing to do with anything. You have the ball Frank, and the court. Go for it...

Best wishes,

-- Steve (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 24, 2000.

Frank: "Whoever, I won't bother with the rest of your verbal diarrhea..."

I didn't think you would Frank/(Ron?) Whats the difference? Even in real life, just "socks". Ha Ha Ha! MiKeY LikeIT!!

Kinda figured this one in a heartbeat...huh? Really shows clear.

Sorry I irritated you Frank....U ok with that?


-- steve (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 24, 2000.

Frank -- did you hear the report on the news a couple of days ago, about how potheads are starting to get head and neck cancer up to 30 years after use, due to the extremely high tar content?

I wonder how many of *them* will qualify for the ten grand?

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 24, 2000.

OK, earlier today I had to ask what "etoh" was, and now I gotta ask what "non-intodicated" means.

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 24, 2000.

To: Chairman Emeritus, Frank "Sock" / RMS Titanic Deck Chair Rearrangement Committee:

Re: You

Dear Frank/Ron/MoJu & Associates:

Will Rodgers said "It's not what we don't know that hurts us, it's what we know that ain't so."

"A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest." (But then - how could he a Man?? At best, a frightened little boy) (Paul Simon)

"The Library of Congress is a giant dumpster full of atoms ... " Max Entropy

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorace and conscientious stupidity." (Martin Luther King)

Dedicated to: "i, Troll"

-- Steve (Who@Cares.Right?.com), January 24, 2000.

What we have demonstrated above is the sound of one banjo dueling.

I must say that the increasing incoherence is remarkable. We can only hope the babbler isn't a postal worker, c'est ne pas?

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 24, 2000.

Thank you Sluggo@yourHead,

Yes you have! (dinga, dinga, twang!)

Thank you for making such a fine demonstration of everything Steve Baxter described, in detail. Your are so cocksure of yourself, you have shown you are incabable of learning anything. Your alter-ego Frank did as well. I just have to believe that all those silent in the Audience...if not empty...see as much as anyone.

You have taught me much, more than you will ever know... Continue with banging your head on the wall; continue bludgoning people you don't know. You cannot be or take what is not yours...that's only so obvious to all...isn't it?

You see no crowds jumping in to align themselves with you; supporting your ignorance, your stupidity, your lack of information, your lack of being able to meet anyone on fair terms; your inability to respond to anything, at any level which would lift all this. There are a few gems for you above, but you don't see them. No, I'm not postal...don't have to be afraid of that at all. Like i said, i have a pretty full range of emotions. You? have one channel...and you will meeet your own someday, somewhere...that i know.

would u like to read something else interesting? it is a story about what happens to Trolls. Interested Mr. Ron?


I think u will find it is 'spot-on-topic'. If Diane does not agree, she can delete afterwards...yes? This is supposed to be "The Trolls Day In The SpoTLight! right!?

So....with your permission Mr. Controller of The RMS Deck Chairs...wanna pLay with MiKeY!? Game??? hmmmmmm?

-- Steve (WhoCares@AnyMoreRight.com), January 24, 2000.


I was irritated, but now I'm not. I don't know what to say at this point, I really don't.

Good luck and God bless,


-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.com), January 24, 2000.

Hi Frank!

thIs is MiKeY! (steve'e little brother)

look what I found!! nifty...kinda sychRoniciTy!! yes Mr. Frank! also...i not mad anyMore either! see? eaZy huh?!

well, here iz whaT guy said about POT itselF!!

ok Mr. FRank: he're we Go

The medical value of marijuana is becoming increasingly clear, as it proves to be a remarkably versatile, safe, and inexpensive drug. Arrangements now being proposed for making cannabis constituents medically available include quasi-legal buyers clubs, restrictive classification as a prescription drug, the isolation of individual cannabinoids, and the manufacture of synthetic analogs. Careful analysis potentially of this inexpensive drug shows that all these proposals are unworkable. Furthermore, cannabis has so many beneficial uses that the strictly medical ones should not be singled out for approval, and its medical potential cannot be fully realized as long as its use for any other purpose is prohibited. Therefore cannabis should be made available under laws similar to those now applied to alcohol. PMID: 10575288, UI: 20045177 ("The future of medical marijuana", in Forsch Komplementarmed 1999 Oct;6 Suppl 3:40-3).

See Mr. FrAnk! i thougt maybe thiS might help open door 2 unDerstanding...good huh! Ha Ha Ha! MiKeY LikESIT!!! yessss!!!

doeS that Help some Mr. Frank?....maby juz a little even???

i wiSh Ron & Sluggo would coMe bak to PlAy... :(

MikEY 6th Grad

-- MiKeY (WhoCares@nyMore?.com), January 24, 2000.

fRank? i made 'nuther mistake out oF oRder...oh well, there's always tomorrow to make mOre! huH?

adD this backwards above...ok? u know...

3. Medical Marijuana. Well, here's how Harvard's Lester Grinspoon summed it up recently: (read above paragraph)

tHat was...wazzat word? sore...sore....

(Steve: "source Mikey...source.")

YeAh! i KNEw I knew that One!!!

'k FrAnk...i got morE toyz like above too in the toY box. Oh Goodie!!!

MiKeY 6th Grade

-- MiKey (WhoCares@nyMoRe?.com), January 24, 2000.

Suggestions: Many people are interested in building a secure future for ourselves and our children...the idea of this letter is to help strip away the misconceptions about hemp, and to increase awareness of the ecological benefits and industrial applications of the hemp plant. If we can encourage individuals such as your self (who are in positions to bring about change and increase understanding) to just examine and thoughtfully consider the facts about the ecological benefits of using hemp in paper manufacture, we will have made a contribution to the long term well being of our planet, and towards creating a more humane world for ourselves and our children. The issue of considering how hemp can be used as a strategy to reduce pollution associated with current paper production techniques does deserve serious inquiry.

Steve Meyers (letter to EPA) 1993

For example:

Towards this end, Dr. Jeri Rose asked me to outline a brief letter which would bring to your attention, and to attention of the meeting participants, the importance of understanding the industrial use of hemp in the production of paper products. Also, to understand hemp's potential for significantly reducing the air and water pollution associated with current timber pulping processes.

There are many ecological and economic benefits which can be realized from the use of hemp in papermaking . The key points are as follows:

3% of the worlds paper is made from wood and only 29% is recycled. 226 million tons of wood were pulped for paper in 1988 and, at current growth rates, the demand will triple by 2020. (see: Harmsen, Patsy. 'Hemp for Paper Consortium Proposal'; 430 Tinderbox Road, Tinderbox, Tasmania, Australia, Feb. 5, 1991)

Hemp has a low lignin content, so a non-Kraft, non-chlorine bleach mill is feasible. Hemp paper can employ a soda process which lends itself to environmentally effective recovery processes . (see: 'Hemp for Paper Consortium Proposal', op. cit.) (see: Bosia A. & Nisi D. 'Complete Utilization of Hemp: Alkali-oxygen and Chemi-mechanical Processes' in the 17th EUCEPA Conference Preprints, Recent Developments in Pulp & Papermaking; Vienna Austria [PM 4132B] Oct. 1977 Book 1, pp. 77-86)

The discharge of heavy metals, sulfuric acid and dioxin from chlorine bleach by the paper industry can be reduced 60 to 80 percent by changing over to hemp pulp. (see: Herer, Jack. 'The Emperor Wears No Clothes'; H.E.M.P. Publishing, CA. 1991)

Hemp produces four times as much pulp per acre as does forest land . (Dewey, L.H. & Merril, J.L. 'Hemp Hurds as Paper Making Material'; USDA Bulletin #404) The USDA report proved that hemp is easily recycled and can be made into every grade of paper we use.

In 1991, Pulp and Paper magazine again encouraged the use of hemp pulp for easy papermaking, which is high in cellulose and lends itself to chlorine-free bleaching for making paper products. "Hemp...has more to offer the paper industry than we are taking advantage of (or more correctly, we are allowed to take advantage of)," wrote Jim Young, technical editor of Pulp & Paper Magazine, in 1991. (see: Young, J. 'Time to Reconsider Hemp' Pulp & Paper. June 1991. p. 7) (See: 'Non-Wood Plant Fibers as a Source of Raw Materials for Pulp Industry' FO: PAP/79/7. Ronze: UN Food & Agriculture Organization (PM 5785 March 1979 12 p.)

The hurds from hemp produces paper products that are superior in strength and durability compared to timber pulp process paper . (see: Department of Agriculture / USDA Bulletin #404)

The Paper Trade Journal ran a survey of technical processes and cited dozens of reports showing the structural advantages of using hemp over timber pulp (see: Schager & Simmonds. 'Physical & Chemical Characteristics of Hemp Stalks and Seed Flax Straw' TAPPI May 15, 1930. pp. 67-70)

Hemp is an essential natural fiber, which has been in use worldwide for thousands of years, primarily for its strong fibers (paper, cordage, fabrics). It has many other uses as well. Anything made of wood or petroleum can be made more economically with hemp, and with far less environmental pollution ; in this case pulp, paper, and paperboard products.

The best most durable paper today (like rag and linen papers) are made of plant fiber, not pulp. Paper made of hemp fiber has a lifespan of centuries - compared to the 25 to 80 years of tree pulp paper - without hardening, cracking, yellowing, crumbling or otherwise deteriorating. It is known as the "archivist's perfect paper".

Hemp is easy to grow in a wide variety of soils and climates, and lends itself to the most sophisticated high technology applications. The industrial use of hemp is centrally linked to the solution of many other environmental problems as well, i.e. deforestation, desertification, soil depletion and erosion, fossil fuel pollution, CO2/global heat balance; groundwater pollution, acid rain, etc. (see: 'Hemp: Lifeline to the Future - An Unexpected Answer for Our Environmental and Economic Recovery' Chris Conrad, Creative Expressions Publications, Los Angeles, CA. 1993)

Note: The short notice given to prepare this letter did not allow a detailed citing of the many studies and reports concerning production of paper from hemp. Chris Conrad (who is a recognized expert on the subject of hemp) is currently in Amsterdam; he was unavailable to provide more detailed information until his return, i.e., additional scientific citations appropriate to your forum. This letter can however, draw your attention to the fact that this information does exist, is available, and is worth examining for the stated purposes of upcoming EPA meeting on the paperboard industry..

Thank you for your close attention to these very important matters,

Steve Meyers / Global Strategies Project

PS. Unfortunately Frank, the above *only* focuses on the implication of Hemp for paper and paperboard industry. Similar cites exist for it's application in fuels, fibers, clothing, food (2nd highest protien form...closely behind soy) building materials, clean vegtable fuels for diesel, medicine, housing, composite materials.

Each category above has similar cites and research showing it's potential to fufill Mankind's "livingry needs", and do so without pollution, with the least (in fact beneficial) negative impact on environments and eco-systems.

This is only for the purpose of 'peaking' one's attention.

Hemp's implications for fuels? Here is what Hugh Downs of ABC news said:

(one sec..coming in next post...) (be Patient MiKey!!!)

-- Steve (WhoCares@anyMore?.com), January 24, 2000.

Hugh Downs/ABC special report (excerpts)

"Hemp could replace most oil and energy needs, and could revolutionize the textile industry and stop foreign dependency on oil imports. And it could significantly reduce or eliminate the negative ecological impacts of these polluting industries.

But the reasons the pro-marijuana lobby wants to legalize hemp has little to do with getting high...and a great deal to do with fighting oil giants like Saddam Hussain, Exxon and Iran. The pro-marijuana groups claim that hemp is such a versatile raw material that its products compete not only with petroleum...but with coal, natural gas, nuclear energy, pharmaceutical, timber and textile companies. It is estimated that methane and methanol production alone from hemp grown as bio-mass could replace 90% of the worlds energy needs."

MiKey: "Steve...!"

"yes Mikey...?"

"Does 'zis have Anything to do with whY theY aRe having trouble with oil today? I keep seein all these scarY reports on TB2000....and it just don't make NO sence to me!"

"Well, me neither Mikey..."

"hOw can they noT see the connection SteVe??"

"hmmm...that's a very good question Mikey. At this point, I'm baffeled. I don't know everything you know."

"Oh! I knOw THAt better than even U know StEvE!!! Ha Ha Ha!!! I seen u in actioN before!!"

"Yeah, Thanks MiKeY....like i need to be reminded of that at a time like this...thanks Bro. (you little URCHIN!!!")


"Nothing Mikey...ver prickly kind of little thing...you know?"

"neVer seen oNe before...nowhere...never!"

"Well....u have to go underwater sometimes to find them MiKey, have to look real hard."

"WoW! now tHAT sounds liKe FUN!!! u mean, xplorin!??"

"Yup.....that's half the fun Mikey, finding out new things...ya know?"

"You BET!!! lez Go!Q

"OK MiKey...more later. There is always more Mikey."

"hA HA HA!!! MiKeY LiKeS IT!!! 'K...I'm ready!!"

"Cool dude....we'll get there....takes time sometimes, ya know?"

"YuP!!! got aLL the tIme in the WorlD Steve!!!!!"

"We'll...not really Mikey, but you'll understand that when you get older. Now, I've got more work to do...so u go out and just play and explore. And we'll get back together again on all this..OK??"

"U Got DAT!!"

-- MiKeY (WhoCares@nyMore?.com), January 24, 2000.

For those interested or still curious, complete "Hugh Downs/ABC Special Report on Hemp" found at:


Click on blue nav button: "Solutions"

"It's right there - in front of your face. Has been...for quite sometime." (TM)

"See Ya laTer Steve!!! MiKeY iz going xplorin' ok? An qUit Buggin' Me!!! Cauze iF I'm a little urchin...yOUR a BiG URCHIN!!!

aH Ha Ha!!! MiKeY liKes MzzrMaGOO!!"

"Me too Mikey...me too. You know it's all for your World, don't cha Mikey?"

"Sure! I DeserVe IT!!"

(yes, you do...) That's xactly why it's there Mikey...see?

"see wHat!???"

"We love ya. Now Git OUTTA here!!! Ya bug me..!! "


-- Steve (WhoCares@nyMoRe?.com), January 24, 2000.

Would somebody please pull the spike out of his arm before his jaw wears out?

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 24, 2000.


On Hemp: I was rereading your posts and some of what you said made sense (and some didn't. Other than the paper uses and possible oil production:

1. what uses are there for hemp

2. Why would the benefits of legallizing marijuana outweigh the costs?

Thanks in advance if you don't mind posting again a thorough answer,


-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.com), January 25, 2000.

Please see new thread


-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.com), January 25, 2000.

Hey Frank,

Ok. I'll give a short answer for now, then see if I can find something that answers your question in detail.

Now, I'll only answer on one condition, that we keep in mind Steve Baxter's opening statement above and stay on track with what this thread started out on.

The connection between your question and Steve's thread on Trolls is this: (not all) but too many politicians in government, and those corporate/financial interests who back them, are responding to Industrial Hemp the same way that you see Trolls act on TB2000:

Trolls ignore any sane or reasonable discussion of the issues; Trolls turn away from sound facts and information; Troll do not do offer their own information, facts and supporting documentation; of the information the Trolls do offer, it is often out-of-context' meaning, lifting one statement and focusing on that, but ignoring to include "the whole picture", and if they cannot argue the facts, the Trolls seek to disrupt any discussion of the matter by disrupting the conversation by redirecting the focus of attention of the discussion - onto the person bringing up the issues, they start making attacks *on their person*, they start asking personal questions which are*totally inappropriate* which they have no right to ask what so ever. Care to bend over Frank, get my procto scope, and nose into your life as a cheap and demeaning ploy to "side track" YOUR trip?. What if we starting nosing around in your little dark closet of skeletons Frank? Come on man....u like to be "open" right. Frank? Can you tell us about your private life....all the juicy details so we can pour over them?? We're bored and would like to put you on the spot for the moment...ok? And watch you fry....cause we're gutless slugs ourselves, were the truth be known... you dont mind, do you Frank?

Frank...have you ever used drugs in your life? Or tried them? How about some kinky sex? How about somebody you stole from, or tricked, or lied to Frank...could you just please tell us if you have every done that, and please provide juicy details Frank...otherwise it wont mean anything to us. And if we don't get the answer we are looking to trap you in...do you mind if we keep poking around until we do? You see what a sham that is Frank? You have no call to do that, wheter true or not true....you see? THAT is what i am upset about Slug. Its the principle of it...that you are violating Peoples Privacy to thier own like without your nose up thier ass Frank.....who the hell are you? Some self appointed "Hall Monitor" that picked up a $.75 cent tin badge at Wall Mart.....? Jesus Christ man.....get a life and go sniff you own ass.

Now, just so you know Frank...don't you KNOW people? Don't you know that if you said, "no Steve...i have never used a drug in my life." You know that everyone would still doubt you....huh? Cause they know themselves is why Frank...but they'll never tell you thier dark little secrets when YOU are on stage, will they....just like you Frank. No different. But....if you said, "Well, yes...when I was in high school, i was so afraid of being a jerk square....yes, i tried a puff...got a headache...and the shit was so bad....I still dont know if I really smoked any." Now that's closer to the truth, isn't it Frank? But some ass-wipe is gonna condem your whole life for that? Is gonna look the other way at every other thing you have done that makes you a full human being....and use that to condem and punish you, and throw you away like a pices of paper discarded in a trash can? Isn't that right Frank....? And who the hell are they Frank? What is so special and pure aobut them as they lie in pubic Frank....attacking others to draw the attention away from the truth of thier own crummy Life. Frank, do you see the hurt that people do that are not even on drugs??? You dont have to be on drugs to pollute enviroments, drop bombs on people, smash their nation and culture, steal from them in business dealings, lie to get into office...then start telling bigger lies. What is this pretense they are putting on if if they are "sober" and "sane"...what crap. I heard a very funny phrase once Frank...and i think its a gem: "Reality...is for peopole who can't HANDLE drugs" (responsibly). Did you get that one Frank. This little play pen buzzing and whirring around you that you cal "Reality" IS a 'drug trip'.....its called "physical reality everyting is made of chemicals drug trip"....Oh! but THAT is not a drug....and neither is food, or air, or water...you name it Frank......what is NOT a drug? (there are a few, but I'll let u discover that).

Next item Frank....in all this rancid hypocrisy...is that you have to "be on drugs" to be stupid, or commit crimes, or have car accidents, or lie, or "not be nice". Thats the biggest lie of them all.....isn't it Frank. There are people who are "drunk" on power, drunk on controlling others, drunk on religions, drunk on being stupid, drunk on ignorance, drunk killing people, drunk on lying....drunk on thier prescription drugs, drunk on thier stinking alcohol and tobacco designed to keep them addicted, drunk on watching televsion.......and these people come off like they are not absolutely STONED out of their Mind?? Will u give me a frickin break Frank.....these 'straight' people are more dangerous and cuase more hurt in the world than all the Junkies and "Pot Heads" in the world Frank......and thats another fact......isn't it? These people are two faced liars Frank.....they are hypocrites and we all know it, but we all play the game of "little angels"......dont' we. These "straight" people are in fact Trolls of another sort.....dangerous Trolls...making nuclear reactors when we have hemp, making nuclear bombs to drop on children practicing violin in the morning; making 70,000 chemicals and polluting the environment as they are driven to relentlessly obtain profits.....right Frank.....drunk on money Frank......you know THAT DRUG Frank? Right?

You want to keep pretending like its not all a drug, and that the whole issue is about fairness, and balance, and responsiblity......those things are not foung in drugs Frank.......they are found in people, or they are ignored by people. People ARE A DRUG Frank.......open you little mind. Everything you are made of and eat and breath is a DRUG Frank........but not what in in your Heart, or your brain. You can't take any drug of any kind to have Heart Frank.....you can't take any drug, legal or not, that is going to be able to make you think clearly Frank.....that takes honestly, curiosity and quality information Frank. Where u gonna find THAT drug Frank? The one you and all of us need Frank?

So drop your hypocrisy and tell the rest of these lying idiots to get off thier "Im a Angel trip.....and tell them to put their feet on the groung, and get honest with their own destructive crap that they do completly "straight" and take your little "POT HEAD" lable....and re- think it Frank....all right? We'er all getting sick of knowing all this. These people are liars Frank...

So, do you or do you not see the principle in the "sniffing up other peoples ass when you can't even be honest about any of this yourself"? Do you see better now? Shame on you Frank. You know better than to ask those kind of cheap, luring questions that lean nowhere, that mean nothing...but that's exactly why you and Ron do it....huh? Because of what it would "look" like....right? And that's all you're concerned about.....right? "Appearances".....not substance, not truth, not the complete picture......none of that. Just flimsy little props, half sentences, and half truths....and you dont think THAT is being "stoned"??? There are better "trips" Frank....shit, quit hanging out eating dirt to get off.....try some pure heroine for christ sake, find out what the good shit is. (ROFLMAO).......no Frank, i dont take or shoot heroin....i can only repeat what medical doctors and military people have told me about what to use when u are really hurting...(my dad is a neurosurgeon, and my mom is a nurse, and i used to work in a medical laboratory Frank...ok?) And, god forbid!! I also study ethnogens, psycho- pharmecuticals, indigenous tribes, etc. The world is a facinating place Frank....if you'd just get curious. You can learn from ANYTHING.....if you are bound determined to do that....you know? That's a fact too.

Now, when Trolls Trump all over other peoples threads...they prevent any sane discussion AND and prevent all particpants from getting the information they need to make a sound decision...on thier OWN Frank...not with your "spin". Just give them the facts and keep your petty one-word one-sentence 'digs' to yourself. They don't need your spin to frighten and coerce them into a brand of ignorace that matches your own...ok? They can think for them self Frank....remember? They can weight up the facts and information themself without you rubber stamping everyting that you approve of and dont approve of in your ignorance...haveing no basis to support ANYTHING you have said here.....and that's a fact. Prove me wrong...and lets start "paper wars" from the total body of literature available? Ok? And we'll see who has really done their homework.....ok? Fair? Something good will come out of it....won't it?

Ok. The "connection" of all this to Steve Baxter's paper above is even greater than what it appears to be.

Government *itself* is full of Trolls, and many corporations as well. The reason for this is because those who are intelligent and sincere are driven away, leaving only the scum to float to the top. It's that simple. You can see comments on this in "OLD TIMERS ROLL CALL" thread (http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl? msg_id=002O5M) and (http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch- msg.tcl?msg_id=002Nnv) Many people have already stopped actively participating in TB2000 because they are tired of being personally attacked, emotionally ripped off, and having their time wasted by Trolls who do nothing except disrupt their participation for eveyone...now, and in the future. And some say, "big deal....." Yeah, it is a big deal for some.

You can only do that so many times before it dawns on you that the Trolls will *not* stop, and Sysop can't do too much about it either. Why DOESN'T the sysop reveal who "Ron Schwarz" is and all his "socks"? Fairs fair...right? Anyone who reads the "Oil Crisis" thread can see what Ron is doing. If this was my board (it's not) I'd drop in on "out of the Blue" on this jerk as go, "Not here A_shole...clean up your act, or you're nixed? That's warning #1...Got it?". Next time i see jerk brains pull his crap, ZAP! "One more like that little boy...and we block your ISP and report you...got it? That's warning #2...Got it?" Now dingbat, if you want to play, have fun, add something...all fine and well, we have a lot of latitude for people to be real and candid, but not mean...get the distinction? Nobody here is trying enforce "Pricilla Pink's Perfectly Proper Protocol Procedures"...but if you keep up this relentless stepping on people...somebody is gonna STEP on you bug...got it? That's warning #3"

Now a guy would have to be a real idiot to ignore that.

In all fairness to the SysOp...it's easy to say the above...they are faced with an almost impossible job. Have to make a lot of "fine line" calls to do that fairly. Too bad they'd even have to do that, that the Audience couldn't "police themselves" when they see this stuff happening on a thread...huh?

In fact, to be totally fair to the SysOP...they saved my life. I was up very late (24 hours?), was bruised and frustrated at having run into these Trolls - completely unexpected for how I am used to interacting with People (real ones that is)..and they had the compassinate insight to delete on of my threads. I wrote a rather 'overly candid' reply to the Prime Minister's suggestion that women's tampons should be taxed. I think he's a jerk for even suggestion that. It's targets women unfairly; they have NO choice about whether they are going to have period; it is something that starts in early teens, had to be dealt with every month...oh, until say 45 or so....yeah, thats a good customer base for required purchases..huh? And, you don't see an "matching tax on Men"...do we? And I sitll think my point about if Mr. Prime Minister made that suggestion to his Mother...she WOULD take him out back and spank his littly 'hiney' for being a jack-ass. But he's old enough now that he doesn't have to listen to mom any more.

Now I don't think the *essence* of what I said did not stand to reason, but in a few statements...well, I handled it the way a construction worker might have (10 years in construction and construction management here). So, I don't think what was said was wrong, but *how it was said* (my fault completely) left the door wide open to push some buttons of others reading it. So, in that particular case, I made a mistake; the SysOp had the insight to just remove it. I should go back and say what I meant in a more diplomatic way, though I must admit, I had a good laugh at what was written...but that's just because of the way i see things, and maybe that's not right for everybody in a public forum. So, i was very thankful for that, and lesson learned. Thanks and I hope no lasting was done; I'll get it...i can learn too.

Anyway, back on track with the OldTimers thread - "Those Who Gleefully Return to The Depths" issue.

Now, what are we left with? The loss of many caring, intelligent, sensitive people who just "Return to the Lurking Shadows" i.e. "What idiot would want to continue, as they say, "pissing-in-the- wind"...when they are downwind?"

So they same thing that happens on TB2000 is what happens in government (at all levels). Now, you know I'm not talking about *everyone* in government or corporations; but at this time there is a very high concentration of Trolls in government; because most of the good people have left for more reasonable pastures...because they cannot withstand, they choose not to, the relentless onslaught of stupidity and hurting which these Trolls are famous for. People are not going to "stand-up" - if the cost is at the expense of their personal Life, their good sensibilities, their emotions and/or personal integrity...they leave. And rightly so...the Trolls "win" again. They actually think this is "accomplishing something". Not really.

Interestingly and very revealing, the "Old Timers" (takes about three days on this forum - before you are ready to join them yourself, i.e. "withdraw into the safety of the Depths") is that they are still "Lurking". Meaning, they have enough interest and curiosity to still want to learn, to be informed, to enjoy the humor and wit here - and occasionally find a paper of the caliber of Steve Baxter's work above. Trolls don't do that either. They are not here to learn, they are here to disrupt...and they do.

Notice that as soon as you really *do* get down to the issues, as soon as you manage to get past their "Distruptor Game"...every time, they just split. They don't like the heat; they can feel the squeeze coming, and they dump you AFTER having yanked your chain and everyone else's for that matter. Trolls don't even have "staying power". That's about as whimpy as it gets...huh?

Now, not to draw excessive attention to some of the threads I've been on, but you will find, if you look, that at the end of these threads...they all finish with the Troll leaving, defeated in the sense that they run out of (literally) "throw away lines"

(I haven't forgotten your questions Frank...just weaving it into Baxter's original post above, which is what started all this in case anyone forgot).

You see the hypocrisy of these Trolls? There modus operandi IS to just keep coming back and having "the last word" on ANYTHING which is put before them. One person responds to one of their "lead" questions...replies sincerely and intelligently, presents facts or information, or a sound construction of reasoning...goes to all that trouble, etc. and the Troll comes back, "I don't need to read your vomit or watch your fried synapses in Cyber Land!" (Actually, that was funnier than hell...ROFLMAO) but Troll Scum can't even 'come to the center over laughter' together. They don't WANT it to come together to any point of commonality. That is truly pitiful and shows how much need they have to punish others. It's and emotional sickness they live with everyday, a hole inside that just rots and they don't know what to do with it, except try to "get rid of it" by "putting it on others"...as if somehow that would make it disappear. Since that will NEVER work...they keep repeating it over and over and over, relentlessly. They forget that one of the definitions of "insanity" is to keep doing things the same way...and expecting the results to change. That is also the 'insanity' of the of SysOps who allow this behavior...because allowing these people to do the same thing over and over and over changes nothing either, or for that matter, for the Audience to just sit back and "watch the action". They ought to come out of the bleachers in force and "give the Trolls back...what they put out...without delay at all. That happened for a moment on TB2000 a few days ago, and about 5 of them got the picture and departed.

Now, the damage the Trolls do to the SysOps board is this; they lower the overall quality of the TB2000 board because the Disruptor Trolls drive away all the intelligent people that are what make up the collective body of wisdom that can come forth. Having been left with a high concentration of Scum...the board then has fewer and fewer unsuspecting victims to go after, they lower their standards. Anyone new who comes in then sees the high concentration of trash on the floor and says, "Forget this place...better pastures elsewhere in the Internet".

So the damage the Disruptors do is far greater than how they leave their victim feeling...it thins the herd so you are only left with the weak, the cocksure and the timid. Like a speedboat in the water, Trolls leave a "wake" of illth behind them...it hits other shores.

Now, when the Troll says, "I don't have to listen to your vomit" or "see your synapses fry in cyber land" - little does the little Troll realize how well he has just described his own behavior, for all to see, in the light of day. The Troll is so stupid...he actually thinks he is seeing something "outside" of himself. (there are very few Female Trolls relative to the number of male Trolls in society...that's why God let's women have multiple orgasms and bear the children; Men's claim to fame is to get to stand-up at the 'pee- pee-pot'...some deal, huh?)

Little does the little Troll understand about the concept of "projection"...that they are ASSIGNING MEANING...not "seeing meaning"...because that takes intelligence and looking BEYOND oneself - to even perceive it (something intelligent or useful).

The other thing Trolls don't do...is do their homework. They think the person on the other side of the screen is their "puppet". "Hey! do this for me..." Hey you...do that for mee..ok?" "Hey You...won't you go find this for mee???" "Hey you...answer this question which has NOTHING to do with the thread..." Hey Puppet...can I ask you some personal questions (NO I won't offer anything personal myself..YOU are on stage). The whole charade is part of their weak act.

The other thing is, is because Trolls don't think...they never notice the trail of 'incrimination evidence' they leave behind them. Anyone can read above and see that there have been multiple references, URLs, and specific examples given above to answer their questions. For example: "Can you give me any examples of the uses of Hemp?" Now how stupid can one get? (they just answered that one). Anyone can read above, two references to Hugh Downs/ABC report on industrial hemp. The paragraph above about racing fuel, machine oil, archivists perfect paper, stopping pollution, feeding people, etc., plus all that Hugh Downs said, (plus all the article in the "Solutions" section of http://www.bashar.com/GSP)..it's all there, starring Stupid in the face...but he doesn't care. He's stupid...remember? He's what this whole thread is about...remember?

Stupid (a more precise synonym for "Troll") is not only insincere, he is lazy. And he wonders "why" he doesn't understand? Laughable...huh? But not really...because of the damage it does; how it keeps the ignorance and the pretending that all that is not right there - starring Stupid in The Face. Trolls don't care about that either, how they look in pubic, how transparent they are. They ARE "pretenders". They feign 'being nice' after just having left a trial of their own vomit...then come back NEVER CLEANING UP THE MESS...and act 'coy'..."Oh...poor little me. Opp-sie! Gee...ummmm...DUH...what about this bone to chew on Steve??"

The whole thing is a pretense at acting like a Real Human Being...its a fake; Trolls are Fakes; they are pretenders that leave a wake of nausea behind them. They are beyond embarrassment, which arguably, is rather dangerous...for there is nothing which can get their attention to "get them back on track".

So, enough on Trolls for the moment, and then we will get to Franks "Oh So Sincere" question above. (which has already been answered above several times, notice that?)

(End of Part I more to come...)

-- Steve (WhoCares@nymore.Right?.com), January 25, 2000.

Now, Baxter's "AX" above deserves reading over and over. It is any extremely dense article. Every word, sentence and nuance in Steve's article above has meaning, great depth, and insight. I marvel every time I re-read it. What Baxter has done above is to have identified not only what Trolls do on TB2000...but he has identified the behavior of "the obscenely greedy" and all the excuses they offer for *their* behavior, destruction of environments (I DONT CARE!!)...he has identified most of the educated fools and academic pomp in universities (If the shoe fits, wear it fool. If not...we're not talking about you, ok? Relax). Baxter has identified why nothing gets done in the environment; Baxter has identified happens in almost any public forum (Morton Downey, Jerry Springer Show). Baxter has identified most of the phonies who wrap themselves in the Bible...going around with their unhappy joyless stories of destruction, judgement and punishment...some God...huh? Its the sickness Wilhelm Reich spoke of. Its Mo Ju...that's what a Troll is.

Baxter...it i could give you the Noble Prize...i would. Period. No two ways about it. You NAILED it. Sorry I miss-understood how you meant it...but I'm not sorry for how I reacted to it. It all makes perfect sense to me.

Now, let's indulge Frank for a moment and give him what he is asking for, alright? (Hey...by the way...has anyone noticed that Ron & Sluggo is gone? Why?) If there was anything sincere about them, if they had staying power...they would still be here, doing what they always do...wouldn't they? God...you don't' think they read, or that any of this is getting to them do you? Naaahhh...that's baloney! What happened...did "Slug-Go"?)

Now, you see the revealing "SOCK" names Troll selects for themselves?? They can't help it. Sluggo@yourHead is quite revealing in itself...isn't it. Yes. Sluggo reveals exactly what his agenda and sole purpose in life is: to SLUG people, intelligent people especially, because they remind SLUG-GO of what he is not. SLUG-GOne doesn't not realize that he could just get Curious and have a LOT more fun. This escapes his attention, mostly because his attention span is so short; or...he's illiterate and can't read, but more likely is lazy and doesn't want to read..and even more so...is AFRAID to read. That's Sluggo all over and in a nut shell. Sluggo is punching his own Life out more than he even knows. Sluggo is leaving his own trail of vomit for all to see, and then pointing to others work, as if somehow this was really saying anything about the other person. All this escapes the Trolls short attention.

In fact, anything which takes attention "hurts his little head"..everywhere he goes, not just here on this forum..everywhere Sluggo Goes...That's Where He Finds Himself." Because Sluggo does not look INSIDE himself, he keeps getting distracted with everything OUTSIDE himself. Sluggo (Troll, Stupid, same thing..different 'socks') NEVER looks inside himself; never listens to what is inside his Heart. SLuggo has already punched his own Heart Out.

Sluggo/Hurting inside (another 'sock') is just trying to deal with the hurt inside, and the only thing he knows how to do is Hurt others...especially those that painfully remind him of what he has "slugged" out of himself...and that is a pain full place. Sluggo also pretends that he is not just as hard on himself every time he makes a mistake. Sluggo is afraid everybody is just like him (too frightening to think he is 'on the outer bell curve') but Sluggo is wrong...dead wrong. Not everyone IS like Sluggo...but he don't know that.

So, when Sluggo/Troll/Distruptor sees something inside himself...he beats himself up even worse than any of the beatings he dispenses to others. And that is why all this needs to be looked at, why Steve Baxter's paper is so important...because if you can't break that cycle with insight, understanding, humor and clarity...well, you get the "History of Humanity Since The Days Of The Pharaohs"...right up to Kosovo, CheChenya, Ruwanda, etc. Who's next i wonder?

Why? Because of Trolls. Because good people sit back and do nothing and allow the stupidity and hurting to continue. They just watch it and let someone else do the work, or let someone else take the beating. They have been watching so much violence all their life from Sluggo Producers in Hollywood that write Sluggo Scripts...they can't even tell the difference anymore. They think its "entertainment". Its sickness.

You must realize that Sluggo is VERY SICK...not bad, not evil (though his actions are equivalent in effect)...no, Sluggo In Office is one sick puppy. But, since Sluggo got hold of everything...he is SO DRIVEN...well, now Sluggo is watching his own Sluggo TV and it's numbing even him out..not just everybody else that watches it.

But Sluggo Don't Care 'Bout 'Nuthin Honey...remember? So who gives a rat's ass about anything anymore...you know? Its just our world..thats all.

Sluggo "@yourHead" the Distruptor Troll - does not just slug at people's heads. Even there he is a two faced liar. Sluggo SLUGs at people's Heart...he SLUGS at their self esteem...he SLUGS at 'who they are' in front of other people on a public forum. "

"SLUG-GO THE DISRUPTOR TROLL" enjoys beating people to a pulp. If they can with stand all that and still 'best' Sluggo...then Slug-go NO satisfaction, NO understanding, NOTHING at all...he leaves like the sissy he is...to continue elsewhere. Real funny...huh?

No...Sluggo the Disruptor Troll knows EXACTLY what is going on. Sluggo the Distruptor Troll is not only Lazy and Insincere...he is all about CONTROL. get it? "CON-TROLL"

How he does this is too transparent. First he con-trolls by squatting on anything thread which has some 'depth' to it? Why? Sluggo the Disruptor Doll doesn't have any depth.

Next, he completely controls the conversation by DE-RAILING it off onto some trivial side issue. Sluggo doesn't know how to think, or respond to a thinking person. Sluggo can not only not "think" - it hurts his synapses to think. Or to even SEE someone think. Why? Thinking would lead Sluggo to find himself someday..and that might hurt. Have to put a stop to this RIGHT away!!! Sluggo the Distruptor Doll must control that too. Squat...and he leaves you no toilet paper to clean up HIS mess.

The next way Sluggo the Disruptor Doll controls is to turn the questions around. He doesn't answer them. They were there before he arrived...but who cares about that? Right? So, Sluggo controls the direction (an opportunity) of the conversation to anyplace except where it is. Cute, huh? This way, Sluggo feels VERY powerful! because not only has he stepped on the person's thread, he prevents any one else from getting to point of understanding, or reaching the next plateau, or the next insight which MIGHT follow...if only A_sHo would ALLOW it to get there. So the lie about Slug-go only stepping on the person who started the thread is like looking at the tip of an ice berg. Its all the people who silently leave, who never get a chance to say anything THEY were thinking...my God...do you think they want SLUGGO to turn at THEM!? Not worth it..lets leave..or just keep our mouth shut...and watch how this unsuspecting 'fish' fries. Another cute game with no Heart.

(End of Part II - more to come)

-- Steve (WhoCares@nymore.Right?.com), January 25, 2000.

So..now that Sluggo has completely dominated the conversation...well, lets just say that in some instances the "victim" is not quite as stupid as Sluggo hopes he his. Lets just say that "stupid victim frying fish" says something that makes sense inspite of Sluggo Onslaught.

Sluggo is NOT Totally Stupid...he is a manipulator..he can see what's going on. He can see when he hurts someone and they say so. Were Sluggo to continue at that point, even he senses that what he is doing is wrong...all anyone has to do is go back and re-read the thread...and there is Sloggo's Trail Of Vomit for all to see. Lets say, inspite of Sluggo's Onslaught..the person sees something funny, or laughs, or even acknowledges that even Slugs come up with good ones. This totally confuses Troll Dolls...it kinda short circuits them, because the person is not only not hurting or giving up...they are laughing and having fun. Now Sluggo begins to suspect that something is wrong...because he's trying to create hate and hurt, and this person, inspite of Sluggo...is having fun. This too is a painful reminder to the Disruptor Dolls...they aren't. They know their "pleasure in hurting others" is not "genuine; they know it is not an authentic feeling...or even anything human. Its has about as much depth as the laugh of a Carnival Clown laughing on the Twilight Zone...empty, hollow, scary. The word for it is "carney". A close relative to "carnage".

So, about the time this begins to dawn on Sluggo The Disruptor Troll...the only way he can control now is by leaving. Yes. There are two forms of control 1) is being oppressive and giving no one the respect or room to participate - that's the obvious way Trolls Controll.

The other way is much more subtle...they control by Exiting. That still leaves the person hanging, with no way to participate, with no way to get any resolution. That's why what they do is an emotional Rip Off. They lure the person forward, then stick they foot out to trip them. But if the person manages to get back up, then the Troll leaves. The person has no idea of what happened? It's sickness. Its insanity. Its cruel and it's Stupid. But that's Troll-dom...all the way.

Another way a Troll Doll will control is by never, ever saying, "You know what? You're right. Sorry...you didn't deserve that. I should have given you more room to express" The way a Troll says that "You're right"...is by leaving. 'Checkmate'..huh Mate?

Now, i don't think I'm saying anything here that is any different that what Steve Baxter said above..go re-read it. Over and again until it sinks in to your bones..because you are going to be dealing with Trolls all your life, at work, in relationships, with "friends", at parties, in the class room, with bosses and in government and international finance and central banks. Trolls are everywhere and they are disrupting our present lives, and the future of our children's lives...THEIR future.

Trolls live off other people's energy...because they cannot create their own. Troll are Vampires, they are Reich's "Mo Ju"; they are Frank Wallace's "Neo-Cheaters"...they are your average politician, lawyer and used car sales man. (Again, if the shoe fits, wear it...)

Now, its important to remember when discussing Troll Disruptor Dolls, that they are not everywhere. There are all kinds of good people in govt, etc...its just that they are more rare that subtle or Obvious Trolls. Trolls tend to congregate around certain circles, and one of them is politics and big money. Troll are driven to do such things...most people that have a life don't have the time, energy or heart for those games as they are today.

Our forefathers tried to unshackle themselves from Trolls...but they are back now worse than ever. Just take a look around.

Trolls have perpetrated lies and mis-information (by all the above known tactics) about Hemp. They have done it since 1937. They have trained people to continue circulating mis-information to the point that they don't even know they are REPEATING something that someone else told them, rather than do the work it takes to study something, because Trolls are Lazy Sots. That is how "they" control good People...by never letting them discuss the facts of the situation, where it be "POT", or hemp, or medical marijuana.

Now, Trolls cannot operate alone...they congregate, recognize each other, stick together and justify each other's rancid behavior with their "High Fives" ...thinking that the more of them chimming-in-with- thier-two-cents actually means something. It means nothing other than a group of idiots can stand together, and drown together, laughing all the way. (Democracy is mob-ocracy...that's why we have a Republic...but that's another discussion.)

So...we must also look at how all this can happen; it is NOT just the Trolls that create or allow all this. There has to be some new term created which identifies all those that sit back, know better, and do nothing. There are MANY reasons for this, but one of them is the people who don't have the guts to stand up like a Troll...nor do they have they guts to stand up for anything that is right. They are the Sick Watchers. I think Bertrand Russell referred to them as the "intellectually timid"..because they don't have it sorted out yet, nor do they know where they stand.

OR - they know full well what will happen if they stand up in a World Full of Trolls...they will get vomited on and ripped apart. Everyone knows that if you stand up, if you shine too bright...you will be crucified...Right? Again, this is how Trolls "Con-troll". Its a very complex issue and something that we have all been conditioned to. We are numb to it at this point, which account for why there are so many Troll Plots in Troll HOllywood Movies. It is sickness.

Now, I know Frank thinks this is all off topic to his question...but it is a direct answer. Trolls have lied about what marijuana is, what hemp is and they have controlled keeping this away from the People, as much as they have controlled keeping good information out of public view (media ignoring its implications for the oil and energy crisis we're are facing right now (read some of the other threads on this forum)...they are ignoring its implications for our stopping polluting the environment. For example: Frank goes..."Oh...ok...i guess you made a few points about its use in paper ...you know, 'boring paper" right?"

Well Mr Frank...let me be frank with you: "Did you know that the paper/pulp industry is the largest chemical polluter of all industries?" Hmmmmm? What about THAT? So, even if you only see 1 out of 20 benefits which industrial hemp has to offer...did you know you identified perhaps the most important thing we could do to stop environmental pollution and cutting down timber which is what converts CO2 back into oxygen to reduce global warming loading on the atmosphere? See how IRRELEVANT that 'stupid paper' is?? Lets just go onto the next question:

"Besides paper...do you know of any other benefits Hemp has." Sure Frank...its all there starring you in the face...haven't figured that out YET?? Ok...the answer is above, the answer is

The answer to your question Frank, the very reason you are asking it even, is because the Trolls have kept that information from you, from Government, from Congress, from the Media...they have just flat out ignored it and suppressed it, and attacked anyone who tries to bring this to light...you see? THATS the answer to your question, and why you and everyone is not aware of this. The BENEFITS of Hemp are so great, it would have massive ramifications for STOPPING dirty oil, environmental pollution, hunger, cutting down trees, using chlorine to bleach paper, medicines, building materials, clothes that LAST (did you get that one Frank...clothes that LAST..instead of winding up in your dryer lint basket?) Aren't you tired of thin socks Frank...they don't work! Where do you think the "fame" of Levi's came from Frank? That came from the "canvas" ('cannabis' - get the connection Frank?) from the pioneers who made pants out of the left over Hemp Covered Wagons...after they moved West after having arrived here on Columbus' ships which used CANNABIS SAILS Frank...yup...i would shit you at a time like this old buddy...that is WHERE the word "canvas" came from Frank. Got it? It was the ONLY fiber which with stand the corrosive marine environment. Ever done any ocean sailing Frank? Ever wonder why ships have CANNABIS rope? Ever wonder why the "War in the Pacific" with the Japanese...that immediately after bombing Pearl Harbor...the FIRST military objective of Japan was to CUT OFF THE HEMP coming into the USA from Indonesia. Do you think the Japanese are stupid too Frank?

Do you know that the US government, after having made hemp illegal in 1937 got their teeth kicked right back down their throat when the Japanese cut off the Hemp from Indonesia...and the Troll Government then quickly reversed position and asked Farmers to "Support Your All Knowing Government""...to start an emergency program of growing Hemp...like 300,000 acres the first year...AND your "All Knowing Troll Government" then created an education film called "Hemp For Victory"...and asked little kids like MiKeY at the local 4H club to be good little followers and start planting HEMP. Did you know that Frank? the Government asking kids to plant hemp??? Why Frank?

Did you know that after they did that transparent "about face!"...that AFTER the war was over...the Government then suppressed that film, and started quietly removing it from schools and universities...to SUPPRESS that information...AFTER they got what they wanted? You see Frank...you see the similarity of how Trolls act everywhere Frank? Did you know any of this Frank? or are you just ignorantly repeating the drivel which was given to you. Do you know that the government then started funding propaganda films like "Reefer Madness"...where they fabricated lies about crimes of people on "POT"...to obscure the whole issues...BECAUSE it could NOT withstand the light of day, or even an honest discussion of the FACTS? What do you think of a government that would do that Frank? Is that what gutless scum Trolls do Frank? Of course it is. In a country that is built on Freedom Frank? You know, vigorous discussion, diverging points of view, makes us all richer...right Frank? What a sham it is...or rather, what we have LET it become...huh Frank? Notice that?

Naaaah! Its ALL Baloney!!! uh huh.

Go read for a change Frank...every time you open your mouth...it's a bust. Your not asking a question, quit pretending. If you were sincere you would have followed ANY of the leads above...I already DID mention MANY benefits of hemp...but you ignored all of it...didn't you? Just like the media, and the government CONTINUES to ignore THE FACTS OF THE MATTER...which are bigger than you, little 'ol me, Slug-Gone and the Silent Audience on all this. See? THATS CON-TROLL Frank.....see?

Frank...let me ask you a few questions if i might...all right with you? Frank...how could a stupid weed that has been used for over 10,000 years, has been proven by archeologists and historians to be THE MOST BENEFICIAL PLANT know to Man, in all cultures...more use than any other plant (until it was made illegal)....umm, why would such a thing be "illegal" Frank? Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd? Think Frank...think. Frank, how could a stupid "weed" that will grow almost anywhere under any climate condition...wider than any other plant in the world...why would such a "Stupid Weed" per ounce COST MORE THAN GOLD Frank? Frank, that's a CON... You have been CON-ed. Ok? Admit it...we all have....ok? Can you live with that Frank?

Frank...why would a plant that produces the 2nd highest form of protein be made illegal in a world of starving children Frank? Did you know, oh so caring Mr. Frank...that almost 1/4 of humanity goes to bed hungry EVERY F_KING NIGHT Frank....or is that not a concern of yours? Not your kids? Not your family? Naaaahhhhhhhh.....f_kem...right Frank? Isn't that what we all think and feel about this, as we turn away from something right in front of our face...u know...NO FEELING about it...right Frank? We can ignore that...can't we...WE are all Trolls Frank when we do that to each other...huh? Now you get the connection of this "off topic' thread Frank?

Frank...with so much evidence of all this available, known for so long...ummm, answer me this Frank...how come we don't KNOW it already? Does THAT strike you as a bit 'odd'??? How come the Troll Media does not let people know this Frank...huh? Answer that one. I guess it shows you that most journalists and their owners are Trolls...huh Frank? IGNORING...Not doing their homework...not being honest...going off on some side trip and calling it "news"...sound familiar Frank? (Don't get worried dude...I'm just using your Name as the target...ok?...not "YOU"...got it?)

Now.....since i have dragged you this far...its is only fair that i return the favor and answer your good question, if i have not done so already.

You asked:

" 2. Why would the benefits of legalizing marijuana outweigh the costs?"

Well, very simply Frank (this is all on the GSP website) the it is costing us more to keep it illegalized, than any benefit realized from keeping it illegal. How's that for a short answer? (Ron love's those...he HATES long answers...on way to get around those...except ignore them, Troll that he is.)

Now...why do you keep calling it "Marijuana" frank...i keep talking about the benefits of Industrial Hemp...and you keep going back to that trigger word "marijuana"...How can you be so dense Frank? Is it deliberate...or do you do it out of habit? Or, is it a conscious PLOY to derail this discussion, so people can't see what has happened since 1937? Answer the question Frank.

Part of the whole strategy Frank...was to give a known beneficial plant (cannabis, hemp, canvas)..a new name. That's the oldest trick in the Book for Trolls...isn't it? You know...call 'em a nigger, communists, cultist, patriot, geek, quirk...they NEVER but never say, "This is a HUMAN BEING"...do they Frank. Remember Orwell's 'Double Speak' Frank...? The trick is to change the name to fool the people into NOT knowing what they already know. You know...call a human being a "POT HEAD"...right? What is that supposed to mean, or convey Frank. Now, you'd have a LOT of fun if you got AIDS or Cancer Frank...then, we gonna fill you will a bunch of toxins that are almost as dangerous as the disease itself...and we are going to deny you the right to have access to a substance that could alleviate your "treatment sickness"...ok? In our ignorance, we're gonna let you suffer...ok? Why...cause we don't care...that's why. Period. Doesn't matter if it helps relive the nausea...does it Frank...sit there and suffer Frank. Doesn't matter if it's one of the most effective treatments for glaucoma...does it Frank...go blind...we're stupid and we are cocksure of ourselves and we want our way, and we don't want to listen and we don't what to change "POT HEAD!!!!".

You know what Frank? Screw you...not the patients...screw you and your junk consciousness...alright? Doesn't matter if it would help people that are so traumatized at what they see in the world that they have lost their appetite...does it. Let them starve right Frank? To hold onto your stupid, ignorant uncaring uninformed "position on Marijuana"...right Frank? Now, that is only discussing the medical benefits alone Frank...from the strain that you oh-so-much want to stomp out. Well you know what Frank...only to make a point, maybe you should get glaucoma, and cancer and AIDS and anorexia...so *you* can look out your window, suffering...and see the "Partnership for A Drug Fee American" bill board continuing to spew lies, even when they know better...and you just sit there and suffer with your AIDS, your cancer treatments and going blind and starving -.until you get the point of all this Frank...ok?

Maybe the above analogy would 'get your attention' as you lay in your sick bed? Maybe you'd have enough time on your hand to do some "sincere studying"?

They don't give a damn about those people Frank...because people could grow the stuff in their own back yards...you know, like tomatoes. For free. That is what the $10,000 dollar offer is about Frank...go pick it up...go find one report of 'death by toxicity' from THC...show us Frank. When u find it, i get 10% for bringing it to you attention, and i donate it all to Hemp Education...fair enough?

So, that's one of the benefits of this "Evil Weed" you want to stamp out in your sickening ignorance and turning away. Does that make that point? Because that is exactly what is happening to thousands, if not millions Frank....so don't ask me to care about you...when we can all turn away from this...alright? No moral ground to stand on to point fingers at anyone for anything they are doing...including POT heads, compared to the damage we do by keeping industrial and medical cannabis "illegal".

Frank, did you know its very likely that the MAJOR drug lords, and those in the banking system which launders all this money...how could they hid a trillion dollars a year Frank...without a little help from the corporations and "just-us" Department..."national security"...what bullcrap.

Another benefit would be the prisons. Do you know Frank...that the US has more people incarcerated than any other country in the world? And we call THEM "police states"? Did you know Mr. Frank...that we are now spending more money on prisons than on education Frank? What does that tell you genius?

Do you know that we are taking a whole persons life, and throwing it away...and the family they support...cause somebody smoked a frickin marijuana cigarette. Do you think that is "just" Frank.....do you think that makes sense? No, it makes a business of prisons Frank...Period. It makes money; it makes for seizures, it makes for justifying someone's job...instead of going after the Real Trolls in this world...the white collar criminals. it provides a great distraction for all the sheep to think..."Oh! we are being protected by our wise and all knowing government of Trolls" Bullshit Frank...pure crap.

Have u ever heard of the legal principle..."cruel and unjust punishment"...that is what the Constitution was about Frank, that is what Compassion was about Frank...remember Jesus? Can you in any way justify taking a persons lifetime work...and they have done to help people and all their education, and taking care of their family Frank...can you justify ruining that persons Life...because they puffed some stupid flower? your "POT" as you say? What do you think does more damage Frank? Did the person hurt anyone...? There are plenty of laws if they act out...and people don't act out on "POT" Frank...go read your crime statistics. Its ALCOHOL Frank...you're government approved ALCOHOL. Did you see what the "authorities" did during prohibition Frank...do you know that sorry, hurtful chapter in our history Frank? Frank...the sickness is NOT the "pot" or the "alcohol"...it's all that is justified in the name of stamping it out that is the real crime, the real damage.

These "police" are doing more damage to a person's life than anything the person is doing Frank...go read the literature...ok? Why are we not arresting everyone who drinks Alcohol Frank? You know, the liver damage, the brain damage, the blurred speech, thinking and driving...the base emotions, domestic violence...all that. Prescription drugs do more damage that ALL illegal drugs combined. Read the literature Frank. Get educated. The cost is that we lost all respect for a government that is hypocritical and does stupid things Frank...no more credibility, because they are liars Frank...much as they posture. They are liars. Now, you wanna see a real drug problem, and how it has corrupted this government?

Go read Senator John DeCamp's "The Franklin CoverUp"...and you tell me who's using the drugs...ok? Go read "Trance Formation of America" by Mark Phillips and Cathy O'Brien...and you tell me who's using the drugs....ok Frank. How about get real for once in your life Frank...the books only cost like $9.00 a piece, and you can get them through Amazon, or Barnes and Noble...or just go to "http://www.trance-formation.com/", or use your search engine "trance formation". Find out about it Frank...it's important. Its madness in high office, and all these folks that have such carefully crafted images in public are not what they seem Frank. Ummm....Frank...how come when those issues which are brought up in both those books...ummm...why did the Government stonewall the investigations saying, "National Security"...huh Frank? Does that strike you as a 'bit odd??". Think you should find about what that is Frank?....then just quit being so lazy and uncaring about YOUR life, YOUR world, YOUR country...and get educated. Its fun, and it's a great start Frank...really!!

Now, that's all i could think of off-the-top-of-my-head as a fair answer to your question, and trying to stay on track with all that Steve Baxter talked about above. but here's just a few more tid bits to make your job easier, because after what i have see above, for some reason i doubt you will go to the trouble to type in a URL to http://www.bashar.com/GSP...i know what a burden that is Frank...and you have my deepest sympathies. Fankly speaking Frank...it's pathetic.

Now...you need to read the works of Jonathan Ott for THE definitive assessment on the "Drug War"...and the costs and benefits of doing something, finding some middle ground, in the direction of legalizing...or at least decriminalizing your "POT". It does not have to be made legal to do something other than what we are doing, that makes more sense.....ok? Does that make you feel better? But everything shows that what comes out of "illegalization"...is FAR more dangerous than the supposed "damage" you keep referring to. It is jumping out of the uncomfortably warm frying pan...into the scorching fire....like, REAL Stupid. That is where we are today with the "Drug War Under The Pretense That We Really Give A Rats Ass About Anything" ...con.

So, below and herein are a few hints, and you do the work, and follow it up...and then come back and tell MiKeY why the "adults" would allow all this junk to continue...cause I can't face him or tell him what is really going on in the world he is going to inherit....ok?

You solve it Big Guy...since you are 'oh-so-concerned' about 'people getting hurt'.

If that truly is your purpose and concern Frank...then fine. Don't get STUCK on your little pet peeve that you have been deceived into thinking is 'so damaging'...and start looking at ALL they ways people are getting hurt, and try...just try...to get your priorities straight....like say, did you know the third largest cause of death in this country of kids between 17 and 25...is suicide. Naaaa...we don't' talk about THAT...do we Frank. You mean that's more than most of all the diseases we complain about??? Yes. Ever wonder WHY they are doing that....ever think it through that far? Another topic of discussion at some other time.

So...since you have been so patient to read this far, i help u just a little tad with the following...ok? In thanks for your reading this far, and for understanding that my upset is not with "you'...i don't know u from Adam...but my anger is at the stupidity of it all....will you please believe me on that on Mr. Frank. Your "Frank" name...is like a basketball back board...that is used to assist in making "bank shots" can u live with that?

Its just a label, like Troll, Doll, Distruptor, Slug-go that is long gone,....you know, its ok to be pissed, and play, and have some humor, and a twist here and there...IF the drift of it is on track. All the rest are boring sots.

so...here it is (partial, not even close to complete...you have to see Jonathan Ott's works to get "The Whole Deal")...read and figure it out for your self. Do you own thinking Frank...not somebody else's. Get educated. Get the facts. Teach *responsibility* in all things Frank...NOT repression. You know, like medical responsibility, responsibility in the media, in education, in journalists, in how we use ANYTHING....guns, environments, future generations...all of it. Its not the "thing" Frank.....its how it's used and handled....in balance, not hurting others, with care, 'reasonable'...alright?

"The only things that are worse than drugs, in actual damage done...are those that suppress them and *the means they use to carry out the supression*." That's a fact.

With the stroke of a pen, they have created criminals out of ordinary good people. The pretense of the offense has given them license to do more damage than anything attributed to the 'damage of the offense'. Most of these 'crimes' are victimless, consensual crimes....they are not going out and doing anything to anyone. This does not matter to the Repressor Trolls...they pretend they are "doing good" when in fact they are ruining a persons life more than what most criminals could do...they take parents from families, they seize homes and bank accounts, they smash a lifetime of learning, they steal employees from their jobs, they put a tax burden on society, they instill fear like Nazis...they are out of control. THEY ARE THE NEW CRIMINAL...using some 'lesser punk' to activate their damaging agendas. They are liars and thieves, they hide behind the law...they ignore the corruption in government, (http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/POLITICS/OK/PARTIN/okm.htm) they ignore all that was talked about in Iran Contra, MENA, the Clinton Body Count, the Kennedy Assassination, and Martin Luther King. They ignore the criminals who ransack our environment and those that continue to this day to oppress the NA...they are Trolls...they are gutless scum...they are disrupters and liars...they are ignorance in motion.

...and proudly they claim "i, Troll" And we all know this - and don't know what to do about it.

One more thing Frank.....(almost escaped my attention if you can believe that, after this visceral monologue that could put a broken water pipe to shame...) quit using "spin" words like "possible oil production"...thats another lie Frank....not possible, so possible it has been made illegal for that very reason. Big diffrerence, huh? Again:

"It is estimated that methane and methanol production alone from hemp grown as bio-mass could replace 90% of the worlds energy needs." Hugh Downs/ABC Special Report on Hemp.

Now, what exactly is it that you don't understand about that Frank?

Also, another 'trait' of Trolls is do leave you hanging on the end of the plank, with throw-away lines like: "and some of what you said made sense (and some didn't).

Well, why don't you spit it out Frank......what didn't make sense? Better yet...what DID make sense Frank? Why all these dangling statements that are so void of content, you could have kept you mouth shut and it would have made more sense? You know what i mean? Troll are so god-damn subtle you really have to nail them on every sentence that comes out of thier mouth....their Trolldom is so ingrained, it permeates everything ...i mean everything.

So...if you'd care to write an intelligent reply to any of this.....go for it. Here's your opportunity to show everyone, turn this all around....and lets find something useful for a change.....ok? Wouldn't that help....somebody. Or...who cares anymore?


Below are some of the 'answer' you asked for Frank, and thanks for a asking great question. Still Friends....see what is really going on here? I warned you I had a method to my madness...didn't i? or didn't you notice by now?) I AM 'mad'...but i am not dangerous; and i do not consciously hurt others...even if they deserve it.

Quit acting like a Troll Frank.....and use your God given brains for a change. Quit repeating things you have heard from others but have not checked out yourself. You'll like it....and MiKeY guarantee's this 100%. Now what could be better than that??

On the other hand, "If they cant take a joke....._____ 'em."

Have fun reading the following...I'm going back to play with MiKeY. (Now, where is that little Urchin??? hummmm?)

-- Steve (WhoCares@nymore.Right?.com), January 25, 2000.

Excerpted from: Drug Sense:

Media Awareness Project: P. O. Box 651 Porterville, CA 93258 (800) 266-5759



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke -

The EffectiveNational DrugControl Strategy

Important Questions

In 1988 Kurt Schmoke, then and now the Mayor of Baltimore, astounded the country by calling for a debate on alternatives to the war on drugs, including legalization of currently illegal drugs. Mayor Schmoke has posed three questions to his constituents; their answers don't express confidence in existing policy. Schmoke's questions are: Do you think we've won the Drug War? Do you think we're winning the Drug War? If we keep doing what we're doing now, in 10 years, will we have won the Drug War? In the same spirit, we invite legislators and policy makers to address the following questions regarding the "War on Drugs."

1. We spend $50 billion per year trying to eradicate drugs from this country. According to DEA estimates we capture less than 10 percent of all illicit drugs. In this regard, I have a two part question 1) How much do you think it will cost to stop the other ninety percent? 2) Does $50 billion a year for a 90% failure rate seem like a good investment to you?

2. White people buy most of the illegal drugs in this country. Yet, seventy four percent of those receiving prison sentences for drug possession are African-American and other minorities. Is race a factor in the enforcement of drug laws, and if not, how can we prove that to skeptics?

3. Has the cost of the War on Drugs in terms of billions of dollars, blighted lives, jammed prisons, intensified racism, needless deaths, loss of freedom etc., produced any significant change in drug availability or perceived patterns of drug use?

4. Someone once said "Prohibition goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and make crime out of things that are not crimes." How do you respond to this statement?

5. It is estimated that 77 million U.S. citizens have tried an illicit drug at least once. How many of the 77 million drug users do you feel we must incarcerate in order to win the war on drugs?

6. Why does the FDA stand up for the right of adults to smoke tobacco, which is highly addictive and causes over 400,000 deaths per year, while decreeing that adults have no right to smoke marijuana, which is non-addictive and kills no one?

7. Drug use is an acknowledged fact of life in every prison in the country. If we can't stop prisoner' use of drugs, how can we rationally expect to stop average free citizens from using them?

8. Despite signatures from 85 prominent groups and individuals, why has the Hoover Resolution (a call for an independent panel to revue existing drug policies) not been considered, accepted, or initiated?

9. What lessons from alcohol prohibition lead you to believe that the current drug war will end in victory?

10. Fifty-two federal judges, the district attorney of San Francisco, The mayor of Baltimore, the vast majority of prison wardens, and numerous other respected officials consider the war on drugs an abject failure. More than a few important Americans are opposed to the drug war. Since no other US laws or policies are inspiring such resistance, shouldn't we be listening to the many voices which are saying that continuing the war on drugs may be a grave threat to the long-term health of this nation?

11. At a time when working people are being asked to tighten our belts in order to help balance the budget, how do you justify increasing the funding to the drug law enforcement bureaucracy? Explain why supporting a failed policy of drug law enforcement has a greater priority than student loans or drug education programs.

12. What do you conclude from the experience of Holland--a country where drugs fall under the jurisdiction of health agencies, not law enforcement--which hasseen a decline in chronic use of hard drugs and casual use of soft drugs since de-criminalization?

13. If illegal drugs are so obviously harmful to people's health, why is it necessary to put so many American adults in prison to prevent them from using these drugs?

1. In drug policy discussions we hear a lot about the "message" that certain policies may send to children. What message is sent to inner city children who witness illegal drug sales on their way to school each day?

2. The modern drug war began in the 1960s, and for thirty five years it has failed to reduce drug access to school-aged children. Which is better for America during the next 35 years, prohibition with continued school-aged access to drugs OR reform policies that ease prohibition but reduce school-age access?

3. Drug prohibition has been one of the biggest U.S. domestic policy failures of the late twentieth century. Why is a perpetuation of this failure more desirable than serious consideration of alternative policy options?

4. Why should 270 million citizens continue to pay $50 billion per year to try to change the habits of 20 million people, considering that this policy has not been able to change those habits in 82 years and at a total cost of nearly one trillion dollars?

So what do you think of me now Frank....still think I'm an ignorant a_sshole that doesn't know anything, or care about anything? Nothing of value here Frank.? You think Ron was justified in climbing down my thoat, or that it shouldn't bother me Frank.....you think he's not doing that to all kinds of other people, that if you idiots just shut your mouth for a change, and gave somebody a chance, even you might learn something? Like that dank hole the Trolls are in Frank? Wanna stay there? Try getting some Heart in what you do and say to people. Be real.

Here is the effect that Trolls have everywhere Frank...read real close...u might get it:

"Crass scorn will poison quick displeasure's wrath,

And castigate those craving future's hope;

Thus propagating loss to those who hath

A twisting, numbing fear which cannot cope.

(OK, how's that for spontaneous couplets?)

-- dinosaur (dinosaur@williams-net.com), January 22, 2000.

And, if by some remote chance, you happen to run into Ron, or Slug- go@your.head and their sticky green and yellow "Buddies" ...have them come back here, and dwell on what Steve Baxter had to say...just for a 'refresher course'. Or better yet....just post the URL to this thread after every stupid, cutting statement they make when they are in the middle of cutting people down, and trying to smash thier self-esteem, and distrupting everything...for everyone...here and elsewhere. Deal?

Your call dude...the floor is yours...

-- Steve (WhoCares@nymore.Right?.com), January 25, 2000.

Perhaps the marijuana isn't helping you. Have you considered thorazine?

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 25, 2000.

Dear Sysops,

Please, can you do something? This Steve guy has buried the thread under thousands of words of incoherent rambling to the point that no one is reading it anymore. Obviously he's mentally ill. I'd like to request that you delete all the posts here, back to maybe the first few replies, and give other people a chance to read and reply to the thread. Thank you.

-- (Arborist@tree.trimmer), January 25, 2000.

"This is your brain on drugs. Any questions?"

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 25, 2000.


NO!!! I want to copy this off for a friend of mine, but can't do so until I'm back at the printer tomorrow. Please hold off on calls to delete for one day.



-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.com), January 26, 2000.


BTW, Usually at this point in a post it occurs to someone (Goldwin's Law) that our government may not be a democracy, but in fact resembles a fascist gov't of about 50 years ago that did some very bad things in Europe. Has this occurred to you?


-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.com), January 26, 2000.

Amazable, huh?

My eyes crossed as I quick scanned that last half of the thread. Had actually refered it to someone working on their PhD.


Nah, it can stand... but Steve... PLEASE stick with ONE name or "handle" while posting. Recognize that may be tough for you, but perhaps all your personalities can caucus and come up with something they can all agree on. How about not posting until they come to concensus? Shorter posts might be a good idea too. Got an editor in the crowd?

Just a thought.

And please, think "calm, cool and collected."


-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), January 26, 2000.

You'll be able to knock me over with a feather if he's able to comply with that request, even if he _wanted_ to.

Now I'm off to eBay. Gonna see if I can find a recent DSM at a decent price. If this boy ain't in it, I think I'm gonna get a paper published (if the other two mentioned above don't beat me to it!)

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 26, 2000.

Diane, no prob. I think, I hope someone can see what happened above. Yes, as a newbie I was a bit confuzed...but I it was pretty much an innocent error on my part. I kinda mis-read how this particular merry-go-round works...but i do see what you are saying, and you won't have any more problem with that. All those "socks" above were on the same thread. Thanks for your insight on the "Taxing Women's Necessities" (That RAT!!!)..ummm... for future reference, I'll just go as "steve WhoCares@nymoreRight?.com" mostly & of course, "MiKeY WhOCares@nymoreRighT?.com". When he shows up. I hope that is not too confoozing to anyone, and hope they enjoy 'playing' that way.

It's one of the fastest ways to dis-arm Sluggo (Ron...zat U??? or iz it Frank? or?) Wow...what a head twist that was for me too!!

Anyway, I had fun...yes, I'm dumb enough to stand in front of the goal posts...but I'm not worried about some not 'getting the overall drift' of my particular human shortcoming, sides, moods, choices of reactions and interactions. It really is much more full.

Sluggo? I don't know what to say or think anymore. Sorry u don't like my posts. They are what they are...nothing more. Wish we could get past this stuck level...truly. I can play, tangle, act just like u, play MiKeY...to me, that's "free". i don't know "u" except as electrons tracing B&W letters on my screen, so i don't "REALLY" know u, so how could i REALLY be 'mad or upset' at "you"? Illogical u see?

Sure u can prick me, and I will prick u right back...but not always, and i don't want to stay there forever. Course, u can define how u want to play anytime u like. Hey! do u think we would have hated each other as much as kids? or do u think we would have been more interested in, say...kicking a ball?? and not all this 'oh-so- important' adult(?) stuff? huh?

problem with this here computer is, we can't see the full person at all, no facial expressions, no smiles, no confuzed looks on our face, no ques. Just a few words, mental stuff mostly...huh? kinda empty place to get stuck, in 'oh-so-important ego' stuff...huh? Fun for a while but not fun to stay. Sincerely hope we can get past all this, and as i said 2 ron...laugh once in a while...and it would not have happened without u...huh? Ever see that too?

Best wishes...I'll get the hang of it. Thanks Diane. Hope u didn't mind all the scribbling, finger paints 'n all that on Ur Amazing Board...what a Circus!!!

Sluggo...consider ur self "knocked over" as you say. Any time u want to tangle in the dust again....ummm.....naaahh....i shouldn't go there. but if u keep pokin me, i might! (smile)

if u can ever figure out what it is that u think u r so upset at me about, lemme know...ok?? Sorry I can't oblige u or cave into u demands that i not talk so much...'zat oK with yoU? (smile)

Best wishes,

Steve & MiKeY 6th Grd

-- steve (WhoCares@nymoreRight?.com), January 26, 2000.


yes i have...and that IS what is so 'disturbing'. What is the correct reaction? Or is that another thread?

-- steve (WhoCares@nywayRight?.com), January 26, 2000.


-- steve (WhoCares@nymoreRight?.com), January 26, 2000.

maybe if u read tHis..u will underStand better.

(posted at another website) http://www.bashar.com/GSP/FamilyTruth.htm

(please don't get mad at my Mom. Just think what she must have gone thru...to do such things. but i see very little difference between how The Family of Man is, and my family. believe it.

have fun...remember to play on The Playground. be nICE 2 each other.

Steve & MiKeY 6th Grade

-- steve (WhoCares?@Right.com), January 26, 2000.

Let me see if I got this straight: First, I say that someone can knock me over with a feather if you manage to comply with the demand to only let ONE of the voices in your head speak.

Then, you come mincing in here, announcing that you're going to have TWO of the voices continue to dump your mass quantities of insane babbling here, and THEN you have the gall to tell me I should consider myself knocked over?

Let me give you a clue: TWO is not equal to ONE -- other than in your demented skull, of course.

PS: I took a glance at your web page. Sorry, I don't read book- length pages of large font italics. I guess you know as much about readability metrics as you do about focusing your thoughts.

I _did_ skim a little bit of it, and I summed it up as a whiny "mommy dearest's little boy" novella.

Oh, bring up the #&*@! violins.

Here, let me set your "mind" at rest: I don't give a rat's ass about your Troubled Childhood. Either learn to control your crack-like keyboarding habits (no, I will _not_ dignify your toilet flushings by calling them "writing"), or stay off the damned Internet.

You're nuts, and a pain in the ass.

No more, no less.

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 26, 2000.

-- Sluggo,

You said to Steve, "You're nuts, and a pain in the ass. No more, no less."

Ya know, I have two "mental pictures" of Steve, and I can't decide which is more accurate.

The first is of an elder-statesman-like man in a tweed jacket (with a pipe) who's very concerned about the planet and wants to do all he can to protect it, (if a bit verbose).

The second is of an emaciated, unwashed, scraggly haired guy high on drugs and frozen in front of his computer, typing as fast as his drug-addled brain and shaky fingers can move.

For the life of me I can't figure out which is closer to the truth.



-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.com), January 26, 2000.

Your second caricature seems apt. There is, though, a picture on his website, putatively of him, which looks to my weary eyes somewhat reminiscent of a used car dealer on his way to the disco. Can't tell for sure if the guy's wearing platform shoes, but it wouldn't surprise me.

That said, I'll 'fess up that the image _I_ had of the guy was that of a spittle-bearded, horn-rimmed, dirty-fingerailed, single-spaced typewritten sheet bearing, discombobulated streetcorner raving lunatic of the type I sometimes saw pestering passersby in Manhattan back in the '60s.

Of course, given the _many_ hats the guy wears (not to mention speaks through), I'd say that _all_ the aforementioned shoes may fit.

(Yeah, I mixed some metaphors. Seemed appropriate given the subject.)

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 26, 2000.

OT Reply: If anyone would like to do their own reading, please DO take the time to confirm what this "used car salesman" is 'peddeling'


U can also see a *great* flame war, Ron, Frank & Slugoo 'in action'...and, see how it ENDS.

(Resume posted at my website: http://www.bashar.com/GSP)

Where's yours Frank/Sluggoo/Ron?

Now...back on topic (NOT used car salesmen) "i, Troll"

-- steve (WhoCares@nymoreRight?.con), January 27, 2000.

Dear Frank, Sluggoo & RonSock'em:

Frank...we KNOW you are "puzzled"; needn't repeat yourself too often.

Why not go finish what you "started" on your thread (just mentioned above) and go 'solve' THAT puzzle? Show us.

I dare you to reply. You are forewarned: if you open your mouth and spoil, I promise I will push my "submit button" - it's all ready and waiting for you (and for everyone i might add) to "see".


PS. Ronnie...so nice to see you back. Amazing, isn't it? Someone asks you "Ron, are you sluggo?" And all of a sudden "sluggoo" dissappears, and you appear under your name. Isn't that AMAZING?

Are you stalking me where ever I am on TB2000? Should I bring this to the attention of the SysOP. Does this not make you a bit hypocritical to 'accuse me' of my "socks" above. The reasons for that are clear, have been addressed, I have changed the errors of my ways, and I'm moving on. How come you are not? What a bust.

Have you forgot Steve Baxter's "X-Rays 4 Trolls" opening statement? you are stepping on this thread, and we are dealing with the "Trolls Connection to Hemp" ON ANOTHER THREAD to respect Steve Baxter's thread here. You are *continuing* to ruin it...instead of just letting it go, huh?

How revealing...no? SysOp are you getting all this?

-- steve (WhoCares@nymoreRight?.con), January 27, 2000.

Sluggo RonSock'em:

Thanks for your compassionate reply to "http://www.bashar.com/GSP/FamilyTruth.htm". You're sensitivity is astounding to everyone that you could know that is what happened, and continue to pick on a "parapalegic" like me. You choose your victims well I might add.

Notice that I'm still standing? Even She couldn't tear me down, so what chance do you think you have?

Think deeply on this, it might save you alot of wasted energy.

-- steve (WhoCares@nymoreRight?.con), January 27, 2000.

Long-winded, whiny, pedantic, and stuck in a groove.

Yeah, that's you, moron.

Oh, and you can take your threats, and stick 'em where the sun don't shine. Right next to your head.

-- Sluggo (sluggo@your.head), January 27, 2000.

Again sluggo, i don't know why you shy away from making this clear; you never come out and say: "This in my opinion of you."

You speak with the "Voice Of All Knowing Authority" when you are giving your personal assessment of a person's character (you never *dare* to address the issues...do you? Because you can't, that's why. Because you are only left with tearing at the PERSON because you cannot addresss the TOPIC of the Thread.

Which only goes to 'prove' all that Baxter said above by your lame actions, and only in that way are you "on topic".

Sluggo RonSock'em, what you are doing here, how you are acting, how you ignore and refuse any offer to get on better terms, so we can get PAST this level - we'll *YOU* (meaning, the way you are *behaving* here; I give it too you that you are hurting inside and mis-directing that at me, your "target") but the whole point here is:

"You" ARE the TOPIC of this discussion...exactly what you are doing. have you noticed that?

Now, we've both made our points. I'm ready to move on. How about you? Truce?

Yes or No?

-- steve (WhoCares@nymoreRight?.con), January 27, 2000.

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