...a must read for Christians..........

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/20000120_xex_the_lions_ba.shtml

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The lions are back The torture and murder of Christians worldwide

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Editor's note: What follows is a much-abbreviated version of the upcoming February cover story in WorldNet magazine. Readers can subscribe to WorldNet at WND's online store. By Greg Nyquist ) 2000, WorldNetDaily.com

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The twentieth century will go down in history, not merely as the bloodiest and most genocidal of all centuries, but also as the century in which Western Civilization suffered its greatest setbacks since the rise of Islam in the seventh century.

At the beginning of the twentieth century, the West more or less controlled the entire world. By the 1960s, most of Asia, Africa and Eastern Europe had fallen out of the orbit of the West, devoured in large part by the two most formidable anti-Western creeds, Communism and Islam. One of the least appreciated consequences of this transformation is the resumption of a type of persecution that would have been unthinkable a hundred years ago: namely, the persecutions of Christians. WorldNet magazine's February 2000 edition

Case in point: Mary, a young Egyptian girl who grew up as a Coptic Christian. When she was 18 years old, a group of radicals from the "Gamat Islamiya" kidnapped and raped Mary, forcing her to convert to Islam. Her captors poured sulfuric acid on her wrist in order to remove a tattooed cross, and threatened to throw the acid in her face if she didn't consent to wear the traditional Islamic veil. When Mary's father went to the Cairo police, he was told to forget his daughter and was ordered to sign a document pledging that he would cease all efforts to recover her.

Mary eventually escaped her captors and received assistance from the clandestine group "Servants of the Cross," which facilitated Mary's re-conversion to Christianity. According to one of the representatives of the organization, there have been in recent years anywhere between 7,000 and 10,000 forced conversions to Islam in Egypt.

By Muslim standards, Egypt is almost moderate. No place in the world are Christians more brutally persecuted than in Sudan, Africa's largest country. In 1989, militant Islamic military officers seized power over the democratically elected government and declared a virtual jihad against southern Sudanese "infidels" -- which is to say, against Christians and animists. A scorched-earth policy was adopted in southern Sudan and the Nuba Mountains, scene of some the most horrifying religious persecution since the holocaust.

Whole villages have been bombed, burned and looted. Many inhabitants have been relocated into concentration camps where they have been starved until they agreed to convert to Islam. Christians have been subject to torture, imprisonment and assassination. Enslavement, rape, deprivation of water and systematic starvation are also commonplace. As a result of these policies, more people in Sudan have been murdered than in Bosnia, Kosovo and Rwanda combined.

Or take the plight of Christians in China. In recent years, the Chinese government has made a special effort to crack down on house churches. According to the Far Eastern Economic Review, between February and June 1996, "police have destroyed at least fifteen thousand unregistered temples, churches and tombs."

Believers can be arrested and tortured merely for holding unauthorized prayer meetings or distributing Bibles without state approval. Reports have surfaced of Chinese women being hung by their thumbs with wires and beaten with heavy rods, denied food and water and shocked with electric probes. Religious leaders are fined, thrown into prison, tortured and sent to "education through labor" concentration camps.

It gets worse. Even in the ostensibly "democratic" Russia it appears that the persecution of non-Orthodox Christians may soon begin to parallel the persecution of Christians under the Soviet regime.

On Sept. 26, 1997, President Yeltsin signed a new anti-religious law, which, in effect, outlaws every religious organization that has appeared in Russia during the last 15 years and subjects them to surveillance by the secret police. Within weeks after Yeltsin signed the anti-religion law, police began breaking up Catholic and Protestant gatherings.

"Inquiries, interrogations, police raids and groundless church closures will likely once again become commonplace in Russia," warned Rev. Steven L. Snyder, president of International Christian Concern.

Last August, police and security agents raided the Word of Life Church in Magadan, a city in far Eastern Russia, near Siberia. Church members were taken away for interrogation in the middle of the night. They were stripped of their jewelry, their fingernails and pockets were slit, and they were threatened with the loss of their homes and possessions.

"This persecution is no different from those which were done under the Communist regime," stated Nickolay Voskoboynikov, the church's pastor.

Michael Horowitz, an activist on behalf of persecuted Christians around the world, has warned that unless a serious effort is made to confront the horrors of the persecution of Christians and put a stop to them, Christians are likely to become "the Jews of the twenty-first century, the scapegoats of choice of the world's thug regimes."

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The preceding story is a brief synopsis of WorldNet Magazine's upcoming, in-depth, February cover story documenting the current persecution of Christians worldwide. Readers may subscribe to WorldNet by visiting WorldNetDaily's online store.

A contributing editor to WorldNet Magazine, researcher Greg Nyquist is an expert in economics and philosophy. ==========================

pictures of these concentration camps being built in the US

http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Lagoon/1780/camp2.html

map of locations?

http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Lagoon/1780/concentration.html

-- Hokie (Hokie_@hotmail.com), January 21, 2000

Answers

Sorry, I've received much more persecution FROM Christians than I have ever given to them - family included.

-- Sheri (wncy2k@nccn.net), January 21, 2000.

So what Sheri, have they ever threatened you at the end of a knive or a barrel of gun? That is Islam evangelism and that can be well documented.

-- jetod (jetod@hotmail.com), January 21, 2000.

oops. shouldn'thavegottenmestarted. time to preach!!! gotta defend the faith.

interesting article. however don't forget, hokie, according to the world, it is OK to persecute christians because we are a pain in everyone's (excuse the word) ASS!!!!! so are the jews. here is this little country and a relatively small population of folks, yet everyone hates them too. doesn't that seem a bit odd that both groups linked by the same Father are both persecuted, the focus of much derision, and hated by the world. and who is the God of this world? we know.

sheri, absolutely, there are "dysfunctional" christians who, although they have accepted christ, they choose not to grow or change or become like him. PLUS (BIG PLUS HERE) if you go to a "church" (even unitarian for gawd's sake) you are labeled "christian" and everything you do reflects on the REAL CHURCH for some strange reason. some folks also label themselves "christian" because they aren't something else or have stepped inside a church once or someone in their family once went to church. however, god knows his own true children and he is not obligated to bless nor to take to live with him forever, those who aren't his.

when you stand before God, he won't accept the fact that christians offended you for an excuse in not accepting a free gift of atonement offered by his son.

-- tt (cuddluppy@aol.com), January 21, 2000.

Middle eastern monotheistic BULLSHIT, all of it.

-- DEF (eattherich@mailcity.com), January 21, 2000.

I don't want to get into a long religious discussion since I am an atheist, but it seems to me that christians/protestants are reaping some of what they sowed. Christians (mainly) and other religious groups down thru the ages have coerced and punished non-believers. Look at the inquisition (sp?)and the forced conversion of the Native American population. Of course, I do not condone any religious group forcing another religious group into submission, but that is the perverse nature of any religion, to spread the faith whether people want to be converted or not. In this day and age, we think we are civilized. Maybe we would be if it were not for the dependence on outdated and misleading religious beliefs.

-- Darla (dnice@hgo.net), January 21, 2000.

No matter what your faith, whether it's Christanity, Islam, Taoism, whatever, sooner or later you'll have to answer to your own deity or deities for your actions. If your religious choice was the wrong one, you life's course was a waste and in the end all you have to show for it is a small plot in the ground that holds your corpse.

These people that persecute another religion over differences are the same mentalities that persecute people of differing colors due to the melatonin content of their skin. Pinheads are pinheads, no matter what god(s) they profess.

And that said, Christanity is just as corrupt as a collective as any other religion. We all have our own specific opinions on who or what God is, and ultimately someone will be proven correct in their opinion. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that whatever god or gods rule this realm they are probably not at all impressed with how well we humans have done over the last 6,000 years (if you don't buy the evolution theory, or 20+ million years if you do.) And sooner or later we all will be called to explain ourselves. When that happens I expect a LOT of Christians that think they have a good bead on things will be in for a nasty shock...

O d d O n e

-- OddOne (mocklamer_1999@yahoo.com), January 21, 2000.

I suspect Christian persecution will escalate to genocide with the advent of the irridium system. The F-bee-EYE's "Project Megiddo" has labeled anyone with a "Christian Identity" as terrorists, and anyone with an "Apocolypse" belief. Apocoly translates into "Revelations" meaaning anyone who BELIEVES the last book of the Bible is a terrorist. Why? Chapter 13.

Here's a link to Megiddo; fascinating read:

Well shit, the link to the FBIsite where it's posted is down.

-- Hokie (Hokie_@hotmail.com), January 21, 2000.

Unfortunately, there are many people who claim to be Christians who aren't. Case in point: Bill Clinton. The Scriptures say that: "By their fruit, you shall know them." If they ignore God, fight with their neighbors, steal, commit adultery and fornication (of the heterosexual OR homosexual kind), kill (babies, too) bear false witness against their neighbors, (anything without proof) and covet what is their neighbor's, they MIGHT BE Christians, but we can assume they are not.

If they repent of these things and change their ways, we are to forgive and accept them as brothers/sisters. An old saying that holds true at any time: "If you were put on trial for being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?" The gospel is like Y2k, only God's opinion is what is at stake, not fallible men's/women's. He says people will revile us for just telling about Him - - then we are to pray for them and do good to them. I would like to know from those who have stated that Christians are mean: You can assume up front that if they are mean, they are not Christians. (Or maybe just very immature ones.) If they have just loved you enough, knowing ahead of time that telling you about the Love of Jesus and your need of a Savior would anger you, but feeling a need to warn you anyway - - how is that mean?

And Christians who seem mean at times: We are ambassadors for Christ, and really have no right to express anger and hatred to anyone. "Speak the truth in Love." If people won't listen, "shake the dust from your feet..." and go on to someone who might. It will be worse for that person in the end than for Sodom and Gomorrah.

And we shouldn't get the message of Y2k mixed up with the message of the Gospel. It harms the Gospel.

IMHO God has prepared us with Y2k for something in the future that will be even worse.

www.tip.org

In Him,

Connie Iversen

-- Connie (hive@gte.net), January 21, 2000.

Hokie -

Christian Identity is a self-styled group that holds to a racist philosophy that most Christians would find abhorent. The FBI has singled them out because they have a record of terrorism and murder. Real Christians are not at risk.

I think Christians love to be persecuted - why else would there be this sudden outcry about abuse of Christians? It's part of the victim identity. Christians have been more sinners than sinned against in world history. They slaughtered witches, "infidels", heretics, Jews, Moslems, third world natives, and fellow Christians, all in the name of God. It makes the current outcry a bit hypocritical.

-- kermit (colourmegreen@hotmail.com), January 21, 2000.

Darla:

Check your history books. Secular ideologies like radical socialism, radical nationalism (facsism), and even some forms of radical (unrestrained) capitalism have been responsible for the deaths of at least ten times the number of people that 'religion' ever has in the western world. Oh, and that's just the death toll from this century's secular movements. I'm not counting other great secular movements like the Napoleonic Wars or the expansion or the Romans and their colliseum, etc....

Don't take my word for it, look it up yourself and do the math.

By the way, Christianity also has the least violent history of world religions, in relation to its duration and extent.

In terms of the safest paradigms under which to live, the Christian one has the best historic track record (really). As far as I can tell. If anyone can provide addional information, I could modify my ranking or position accordingly.

If you post it here, you might want to e-mail it to me as well -- sometime I lose these threads after a while.

-- tim phronesia (phronesia@webtv.net), January 21, 2000.

Kermit:

Oh I loved that. You basically just said that Christians deserve whatever they get. Hitler said the same, for the same reasons that you gave, about the Jews and the Gypsies. Ataturk said the same of the Armenians. Stalin seemed to say the same of the 'peasants'. I have no idea what Mao was thinking. Or the Huttu and the Tutsi in Africa.

Do you think perhaps that, just to be on the safe side, we should ask all our Christian friends to wear some sort of self-identifying badge of some sort? Perhaps you could begin working on some legislation to that effect?

-- tim phronesia (phronesia@webtv.net), January 21, 2000.

Could one reason the Muslims are pissed at the Christians be that little historical episode called "The Crusades"? (Not that I think either religion is worth squat.)

-- A (A@AisA.com), January 21, 2000.

A of AA:

Again, let's take the time to look at the history, instead of lobbing accusations.

The Crusades were far more about money (that is controlling trade on the Mediterranean) than about religion. Apparently the European elite felt that they were tired of losing large parts of Southern Europe (and world trade) to the Muslims and that the best defense was a good offense. Sure they 'used' religion. But the crimes done in the name of most other ideologies and relgions are even worse. I would contend that that is because the essential self-restraining structure of Christianity.

Really. Perhaps by way of comparison you would like to contemplate what history would have been like if the paradigm of the colliseum and the Tuetonic war gods still reigned in the west. Do you think it would be nicer for the muslims if were constantly at war with them so that we could aquire slaves to sacrifice?

Honestly, no paradigm, no system, no culture on earth is without sin, transgression, error. Do you prefer then no common culture, no government, no systems or paradigms? You prefer total anarchy? Why wait? I can recomend some very anarchic regions in Africa and South Eastern Europe that you might just love to go to.

As for America, I thank God that Christianity runs deeper here than any other nation on earth. We haven't done too badly by it either.

In any event, all who are sinless themselves are free to criticize my faith without invoking a response from me. Otherwise, lets quit tearing each other and everything else down so we can get to work making things better for a change.

-- tim phronesia (phronesia@webtv.net), January 21, 2000.

Tim, I think you have it wrong as to the most violent religions--My take, the lower the number the less violent the faith---! 1.) Jainism,they cover their mouths to keep from harming even an fly--2.) Buddho/taoism--as practiced in thibet,pre-communist China and S.E. Aisa. 3.) Confuciusism 4.)Christianity/Islam/Judeism( all have bloody and warlike histories. By sheer numbers Islam and Christianity have the largest body counts. 5.) secular-isms (Pseudo-religions) Capitalism/materialism,6.)Nationalism Socialism 7.)Communism. Notice I have not mentioned Animism/nature philosophies that have a slight or minimal violent history,this includes many Amerind faiths. Needless to say all the orignators of world faith teach nonviolence and it is the religions that form around the base teachings that become rightous and violent down the line. While millions have been slaughtered in the name of God ,the pseudo religions pose the greatest danger--Materialism ,capitalism/communism will kill far more due to universal distruction of the finely balanced natural system. The real religions may fall victim to fanatisim and all are subject to go over the deep end and the slaughter begins.

-- merek (merek@aloha.net), January 21, 2000.

Lets cut to the chase folks. It all boils down to one point. Jesus Christ shed his blood on the cross and paid the debt for the sin of the world. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. You either accept or reject this. For those Christ rejectors, I propose a cut and paste post to cement your position for all the fence sitters. You who hate Jesus Christ and trash Christians, put your money where your mouth is and post the following.

I, being of sound mind and body, do hereby reject Jesus Christ as my Saviour. I reject the blood he shed on the cross as my only means of salvation. I reject the Bible and hereby condemn it as rubbish. I reject the notion I am a sinner and have determined that I will make it to heaven on the basis of my religion or good works.

There it is. It is your decision. Consequences are eternal.

-- trafficjam (road@construction.ahead), January 21, 2000.

Darla wrote: "I don't want to get into a long religious discussion since I am an atheist, but it seems to me that christians/protestants are reaping some of what they sowed. Christians (mainly) and other religious groups down thru the ages have coerced and punished non-believers. Look at the inquisition (sp?)and the forced conversion of the Native American population. Of course, I do not condone any religious group forcing another religious group into submission, but that is the perverse nature of any religion, to spread the faith whether people want to be converted or not. In this day and age, we think we are civilized. Maybe we would be if it were not for the dependence on outdated and misleading religious beliefs."

Firstly, if you would recall, the targets of the Inquisition were often those who followed Christ, as opposed to following human leaders using religioun to control and coerce others, a la "religion, an opiate of the masses." I have also read some of what happened to Native Americans, and the main sources I've found of what good treatment they got were not atheists, but Christians. Of course, actions showed lots of fakers among those claiming to be Christians--the name is not the same as the reality, according to the founder of Christianity himself, as per quotes in John 14 and Matthew 7 to follow. I suspect that the same is true of staunch pro-abortionists today (the current evil yet acceptable expression of humankinds' abuse of others' rights), and staunch pro-slavery or anti-civil rights groups in the past.

Secondly, when you get people redefining words like our illustrious President ("It depends on what 'is' is.") you can make anything say anything, even the Bible. Do you honestly believe God is fooled by that kind of rubbish? Do you think that, as in our courts of justice, people will get off at the Judgement seat of Christ because they are good at twisting words, or on a technicality? Or that they will be convicted when they really don't deserve it? I suppose, though, that as an atheist you think that God is manmade, and that there is no justice--but let's say there were a God. Would He be fooled in that case?

What were the greatest commandments IN THE OLD TESTAMENT?

Deut 6:5-6 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

Lev 19:18 Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

Matthew 22 37Jesus replied: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Obviously, calling someone (or oneself) a Christian or saying you love God doesn't make it so. Although that is a convenient belief to have, to justify being happy when Christians suffer and are persecuted and killed, isn't it? Revenge for Christians saying that there are absolutes, and that everyone is accountable to God, perhaps? And that there is only one way to heaven? (What if that is the truth, though?)

Real Christians are those who follow Christ, and obey His commandments, period.

John 14:23-24 3Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

All the others will be rejected by Christ, no matter what words come out of their mouths, and no matter whether you and they consider themselves to be Christians.

Matt 7:21-23 21"Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Next time you're tempted to consider someone a "follower of Christ," or "Christian", when they are doing wicked things, in history or the in the present, try comparing their actions with those of Jesus, their supposed leader, and ask "What Would Jesus DO?" (WWJD). Because if they consistently aren't doing that, they're fakers, and not Christians.

-- S. Kohl (kohl@hcpd.com), January 21, 2000.

So everytime Christians misbehave, they're not true Christians. I think the Marxists also claim that the Soviet Union was not true communism.

I don't think Christians deserve to be persecuted, and I am sorry if I gave that impression. I just think its interesting that Christians only believe in freedom of religion when they do not control the apparatus of the state. I don't think Hitler used that as his excuse to persecute Jews - he just thought that they were racially inferior and were polluting the purity of his blond Germans.

An interesting web site, that I don't have time to look up - Atheists for Jesus. (probably www.atheistsforjesus.com)

-- kermit (colourmegreen@hotmail.com), January 21, 2000.

All I can say, S. Kohl, is "Amen".

Kermit:

No, when Christians misbehave, it isn't that they aren't true Christians - - but we can assume they aren't. After all, Christians know we are sinners, saved by grace. That's why I feel Christians should not be unkind to opponents. Others might not want to be Christians if we aren't good ambassadors for Christ.

In Ireland, while that is blamed on Catholic-Protestant warfare, an Irish friend of mine said that it's not about religion, it's about economics, and the true Christians on both sides are appalled at the behavior of some of their neighbors.

The Inquisition was about a religio-political entity, not necessarily truly Christian, wanting to stamp out their opposition.

In the same way, our nation cannot really be called Christian anymore.

-- Connie Iversen (hive@gte.net), January 21, 2000.

Merek:

Nicely put, although I'd put the Capitalism/materialism up near the top.

We know the Gulf war was about oil, lets not pretend it wasn't.

I don't think any other religion had done anything that compares to the following that was done in the Gulf (and again in Kosovo--was the cure worse than the disease) in the name of Capitalism/materialism Religion (Our Christian behaviour at its finest no less):

Glowing in the Gulf

and applies 100% to Kosovo as well.

-------- EXERPTS FROM ABOVE FOLLOW ----------

(snip)

Over the course of the two month war, 3,700 Iraqi tanks were obliterated- 1,400 of them by shells encased in depleted uranium. Thousands of artillery pieces, armored personnel carriers and other equipment were destroyed by DU rounds. 940,000 30mm shells encased in depleted uranium were fired from U.S. planes, and 14,000 larger DU shells from tanks, along with an untold number of Tomahawk missiles tipped with depleted uranium. By war's end, roughly 300 tons of uranium from spent rounds lay scattered in various sizes and states of decay across the battlefields of Iraq and Kuwait.(2) Welcome to the wave of the future: '`low intensity" nuclear war, inaugurated in the Gulf War by the United States.(3)

Depleted uranium1 is a highly toxic and radioactive by-product of the uranium enrichment process used in nuclear reactors and the manufacture of nuclear weapons. Natural uranium, with a half-life of 4.5 billion years, is comprised of three isotopes: 99.27 percent U238, 0.72 percent U235, and .0057 percent U234. DU is uranium with the U235 isotope-the fissionable material-reduced from 0.7 percent to 0.2 percent-thus, "depleted." The Pentagon says DU is relatively harmless, emitting "only" 60 percent the radiation of non-depleted uranium. But Dr. Ernest Sternglass, Jay Gould and Benjamin Goldman have shown that even low-level radiation emitted during the "normal" functioning of nuclear power plants creates havoc with people's immune system as well as the surrounding environment.(4) And, according to independent scientists, "a DU antitank round outside its metal casing can emit as much radiation in one hour as fifty chest X-rays."(5) A tank driver receives a radiation dose of 0.13 mrem/hr to his or her head from overhead DU armor,(6) which may seem like a very low dose. However, after 32 continuous days, or 64 12-hour days, the amount of radiation a tank driver receives to his head will exceed the Nuclear Regulatory Commission's standard for public whole-body annual exposure to man-made sources of radiation.(7) Unfortunately, U.S. tank crews were not monitored for radiation exposure during the Gulf war.(8)

(snip)

One researcher found that a single molecular particle of depleted uranium will subject an individual to radiation at a level 800 times what is permitted by federal regulations for external exposure.(10) Twenty-two vets still have uranium shrapnel imbedded in their bodies. As DU-artillery shells heat up, the uranium becomes aerosolized, releasing high amounts of radioactivity -not the low amounts the military claims for "normal" depleted uranium. Clouds of deadly uranium dioxide dust particles swept over large areas of Iraq and Kuwait, devastating agriculture, soil and water.(11)

(snip)

Radioactivity inflicts severe damage on the total environment while weakening immune systems, destroying the kidneys, lungs, bones and liver, and rendering the human body susceptible to all sorts of diseases a healthy individual is able to ward off. Iraqi children continue to find uranium-coated shells; they have been coming down with all sorts of deadly illnesses associated with radiation poisoning. A secret report by the British government estimated that the use of depleted uranium weapons in the Gulf could alone account for 500,000 deaths in the region.(13) That report was based on estimates that 25 tons of depleted uranium munitions had been used; in actuality, the Department of Defense now estimates that the U.S. fired more than 12 times that amount.

(snip)

In introducing the use of depleted uranium weapons the U.S. government used its own soldiers as guinea pigs,permanently destroyed the ecology of the region, and left an ongoing legacy of childhood leukemia, birth defects and poisoned water for civilians living in the Gulf. And the U.S.-as it did in dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki-has made tile horror of low intensity nuclear weapons the necessary norm for future conflicts.

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), January 21, 2000.

If you'd like to read about the above on the effects of depleted uranium in the Gulf from a more "main stream" source, how about the Guardian/Observer from England:

Victims of a war they never saw

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), January 21, 2000.

Kermit:

Thank you. I may sometimes be overly sensitive to some issues. You are clearly a man of civility and goodwill.

Merek: Jainism at #1? If Christianity would have been confined to the monastic orders, I think it would have still had a far larger impact on the world than Jainism. Its easy to appear 'the saint' all the time when you never get involved in life.

Buddhism at #2? Better look up its entire history, you'll be shocked. Some nice principles, just an inability to practice them when push comes to shove.

Confucianism (#3) or Taoism(#2)? Not religions, more philosophies, according to most oriental sources. Still, Confucianism was the ruling paradigm of pre-Communist China for most of its history- which had quite its own share of blood. Also played a large role with the ruling elite of traditional Japan.

To restate this last point: Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism were the common 'ideologies' of the ruling elite throughout Burma, China, Japan, and the South East Asian countries. These ideologies don't seem to have restrained their practitioners from being even more brutal and inhumane at times then most westerners would have thought possible.

And finally, Tribalism:

Tribalism is beautiful. Until it comes under historical stress. Then we have Huttu and the Tutsi. Or the unparalleled Aztec bloodbath. Or the blood curdling screams of the war captives being slowly sacrificed to the Teutonic war gods. Or cannibalism. Etc....Like Buddhism, under stress it becomes as violent as it was previously pacific. So it goes.

Tribal religions might be fine if we all lived in the garden of Eden, but this is the *real* world, and that requires *real* faith.

Again, Christianity seems to have a restraining effect, not just in principle, but in practice.

-- tim phronesia (phronesia@webtv.net), January 21, 2000.

Opps. I may have been unclear in my last post. Confucianism wasn't the *popular* paradigm in China [emperor worship was]. Confucianism was the organizing cult of the elite [the governing class].

-- tim phronesia (phronesia@webtv.net), January 21, 2000.