Anybody in-the-know...IS it illegal for the IRS to tax us? : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

OT-Are those 2 ex IRS guys for real or what? Has anybody tested the IRS on this?

-- eating crow (, January 20, 2000


Yes, several people have tested the IRS. They have gone to jail for tax evasion, some for a very long time.

That old canard about the IRS not having the legal right to tax US citizens is just old militia garbage.

Here's a website for other militia garbage.

-- Don't risk it (, January 20, 2000.

Personally, I don't have the guts or resources to go head on with the IRS.....however, it is interesting to note, that when the IRS (agents thereof) are asked exactly which law/statute, and where exactly in the Federal Register is it that says every citizen is obliged to pay, they have no answer. (From what I've been told, there is none..)

Just an interesting "aside".

-- Birdlady (Birdlady@nest.home), January 20, 2000.

A couple of years ago I sent a FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) request to the IRS to send me any documents they had which indicated that I was a "taxpayer", that is, required to pay IRS income tax. The FOIA requires all federal agencies to respond with documents or the answer that they don't have any such documents. The IRS answer I got was that they were not required to answer "legal questions" on income tax. I appealed and got a form letter listing the tax court decisions in which citizens got penalized or imprisoned for "tax protests". I could have sued in federal court but it seemed for ordinary purposes that the point had been made, that the IRS feels above the law, arrogant, misleading, and unable to prove that I or any other ordinary citizen is required to file income tax returns and pay income tax. Yes, the IRS plays hardball and no I have not stopped filing (spouse). But little doubt is left in my mind that this government is no longer of the people, by the people, and for the people.

When I encounter those who doubt this premise I never ask them to take my word for it but invite them to conduct the same experiment I did with the IRS. I have yet to lose an argument about the IRS that way. Although I am not a "non-taxpayer", I have met several people who are and so far as I can tell all but possibly one of them seem in good shape. However, it is a decision that has far reaching ramifications for one's family and (if applicable) employer and can possibly cause considerable readjustments if not inconveniences in one's daily routine (bank accounts, passports, driving, insurance, loans, ...).

As the IRS, Waco, and many other examples unfortunately demonstrate, the issue for me is no longer "if" the government will come and take away people's unalienable rights, but "when". And yes, I am prepared.

-- zygote (zygote@zygote.zygote), January 20, 2000.

crow muncher--I think the angle is that the IRS "must" be unconstitutional because it is not mentioned there. Well, the constitution doesn't mention FBI, NSA, BATF, NRC, EPA, MOUSE either. Seems like a week justification for avoiding paying, especially given the risks for nonpayment.

-- Hokie (, January 20, 2000.

After a lengthy study, the best explanation I've come across for the IRS's ability to tax, even though it's plainly unconstitutional (and so is a lot of other stuff), is that, because we use the privately established and controlled, government-sanctioned monetary system known as the Federal Reserve, the IRS proportionally "charges" us for the use of this system. Apparently, if you never use, earn, or convert to dollars, you never have any "tax" liability, because you never trade in "dollars", you aren't "using" the system.

For example, if you started your own bank in your own town with your own medium of exchange and that's all you ever used for every transaction that you conducted with your fellow citizens and the world, never using, accounting, or holding Federal Reserve Notes through the regular banking system, you could not be assessed the IRS income tax. Since this is, for all practical purposes, impossible, everyone is theoretically liable to pay the income tax. This is why barter isn't taxable.

The Income Tax is what we pay for the "privilege" of using the Federal Reserve System and its incredible, shrinking "dollar".

NB: the Income Tax was signed into law on the heels of the Federal Reserve act in 1913, and required about as much public manipulation to get passed, if not more, as the Federal Reserve act itself. The government doesn't actually NEED the money it raises from the income tax. The FED could just give the US Federal Government as much "money" as it wanted (and sometimes it does!), but this is decidedly inflationary. The main function of the IRS is to reduce the money supply circulating in the hands of average citizens in an attempt to counter the sustained inflationary effects of excess money creation inherent in the system. This is why taxes are cut when things go haywire and (usually) raised when things are peachy. They haven't generally raised taxes this cycle (yet) because the daily turnover of shares in the equity markets are pulling tons of "money" out of the system through capital gains payments. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the next recession as the deficit starts ballooning again. Will they just let it balloon, or will they raise taxes at the worst possible time?

-- Nathan (, January 20, 2000.

I mean weak. Anyway, I hear that personal income tax is used to pay the private federal reserve interest on currency borrowed by the feds. Anyone have a comment on that? Sounds kinda far fetched to me.

-- Hokie (, January 20, 2000.

Nathan, then why is income tax not charged globally on all US dollars, uh I mean fed notes, like that rental fee propsed by that worker in Richmond?

And why are they called US dollars, if the fed reserve is not part of the US gov, but a private agency backed by foreirn investors?

Wouldn't it be better to use monopoly money? That's at least printed by an American company...Oh, but manufactured in Taiwan, nevermind, heh.

-- Hokie (, January 20, 2000.


-- Villain (, January 20, 2000.

I will take the I.R.S. on, further down the line (Damn! I originally went to work for them), too far down Totem to mean anything. I am busy now checking out hazards of Fluoride and Aspertame. Keep seeking...

-- No Knowledge (just@knowledge.obsessed), January 20, 2000.

I think the two tax fellows you are looking for are here:

A Worthwhile Re-post: About Money

But you might like to check out:

I nform America Tax Freedom Information Center - The Truth Will Set You Free

and SAPF

These two orgss claim they've tested this IRS issue out in court.

I don't know much about IRS legality. I focus my study on the Federal Reserve.

You might also want to look at:


for a good mix of everything.

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), January 20, 2000.

Lets try that again.

I think the two tax fellows you are looking for are here:

A Worthwhile Re-post: About Money

But you might like to check out:

I nform America Tax Freedom Information Center - The Truth Will Set You Free

and SAPF

These two orgss claim they've tested this IRS issue out in court.

I don't know much about IRS legality. I focus my study on the Federal Reserve.

You might also want to look at:


for a good mix of everything.

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), January 20, 2000.

Last time.

I think the two tax fellows you are looking for are here:

A Worthwhile Re-post: About Money

But you might like to check out:

I nform America Tax Freedom Information Center - The Truth Will Set You Free

and SAPF

These two orgss claim they've tested this IRS issue out in court.

I don't know much about IRS legality. I focus my study on the Federal Reserve.

You might also want to look at:


for a good mix of everything.

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), January 20, 2000.

I once had to go to the local Federal building and talk with an IRS agent, something about my ex not filing taxes for a few years. The agent's name was Dobermann. I am not making this up.

-- JT80CoG (, January 20, 2000.

One more post you should check out, is this very interesting diseration (complete with Supreme Court citations) about how the Federal Government gets jursidiction over you. Its about the various types of citizenship that we have over here. Yes you heard right there is more than one definition of US citezenship, and the Federal Government works under one defition that allows them to bypass the constitution! Don't believe it, then better stop believing in the Supreme Court because that have said as much!

And this is why unconstituional stuff can take place...




And what about Constitutional rights on the federal plantation?

. . . [T]he United States may acquire territory by conquest or by treaty, and may govern it through the exercise of the power of Congress conferred by Section 3 of Article IV of the Constitution . . .

In exercising this power, Congress is not subject to the same constitutional limitations, as when it is legislating for the United States . . . And in general the guaranties (sic) of the Constitution, save as they are limitations upon the exercise of executive and legislative power when exerted for or over our insular possessions, extend to them only as Congress, in the exercise of its legislative power over territory belonging to the United States, has made those guarantees applicable.

- Hooven & Allison & Co. v. Evatt, 324 U.S. 652 (1945)

Constitutional protections are nonexistent.

If you're still with me, your jaw should be bouncing off the floor.

Multiple definitions of the "United States"?

Multiple citizenships?

A federal plantation for blacks?

Surely, you must be thinking, if this were true, it would be the biggest story of the century and the press would have long ago done their job and exposed the fraud . . .

Well, it is, and they haven't, so here's the factual evidence from no less an authority than the Supreme Court itself;

It is quite clear, then, that there is a citizenship of the United States and a citizenship of a State, which are distinct from each other and which depend upon different characteristics or circumstances in the individual.

- Slaughter House Cases, 83 U.S. 36 (1873)

We have in our political system a Government of the United States and a government of each of the several States. Each one of these governments is distinct from the other, and each has citizens of its own . . .

- United States v Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875)

There are, then, under our republican form of government, two classes of citizens, one of the United States and one of the state. One class of citizenship may exist in a person, without the other, as in the case of a resident of the District of Columbia; but both classes usually exist in the same person.

- Gardina v Board of Registrars, 160 Ala. 155, 48 S. 788, 791 (1909)

The issue as to whether there are different meanings to the term "United States," and whether there are three different "United States" operating within the same geographical area, and one "United States" operating outside the Constitution over its own territory, in which it has citizens belonging to said "United States," was settled in 1900 by the Supreme Court in De Lima v Bidwell, 182 U.S. 1, and in Downes v. Bidwell, 182 U.S. 244. In Downs, Justice Harlan dissenting stated as follows;

The idea prevails with some -- indeed it found expression in arguments at the bar -- that we have in this country substantially and practically two national governments; one to be maintained under the Constitution, with all its restrictions; the other to be maintained by Congress outside and independently of that instrument, by exercising such powers as other nations of the earth are accustomed to exercise.

He went on to say on page 823;

I take leave to say that if the principles thus announced should ever receive the sanction of a majority of this court, a radical and mischievous change in our system of government will be the result. We will, in that event, pass from the era of constitutional liberty guarded and protected by a written constitution into an era of legislative absolutism . . .

It will be an evil day for American liberty if the theory of a government outside of the supreme law of the land finds lodgment in our constitutional jurisprudence. No higher duty rests upon this court than to exert its full authority to prevent all violation of the principles of the Constitution.

- Downes v. Bidwell, 182 U.S. 244

An unpublished brief entitled "Memorandum in Support of Request for the District Court to Consider the T.R.O. and Injunction by the Magistrate" by John Knox, Knox v U.S., United States District Court for the Western District of Texas, San Antonio, Texas, Case No. SA-89-CA-1308 stated (paraphrased);

This theory of a government operating outside the Constitution over its own territory with citizens of the United States belonging thereto was further confirmed in 1922 by the Supreme Court in Balzac v Porto Rico, 258 U.S. 300 where that Court affirmed that the Constitution does not apply outside the limits of the 50 States of the Union . . . the "United States" was given exclusive power over the territories and their citizens of the "United States" residing therein.

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), January 20, 2000.

Just had to post a bit more for you folks from the article on Citizenship. It's mind boggling:

------------ EXERPTS FOLLOW ------------

Finally, in 1945, the Supreme Court agreed to settle, once and for all, this question of multiplicity;

The term "United States" may be used in any one of several senses. It may be merely the name of a sovereign occupying the position analogous to that of other sovereigns in the family of nations. It may designate the territory over which the sovereignty of the United States extends, or it may be the collective name of the states which are united by and under the Constitution.

- Hooven & Allison & Co. v. Evatt, 324 U.S. 652 (1945)

To summarize, when travelling abroad, you come under the jurisdiction of the President through his agents in the U.S. State Department, where "U.S." refers to the sovereign nation. You are a "Citizen of the United States".

It is the second citation that defines the federal plantation. Here Congress has exclusive legislative jurisdiction. In this sense, the term "United States" is a singular noun. You are a person residing in the District of Columbia, one of its Territories, or Federal enclaves or you are living abroad. Living abroad might mean that you are physically living in a foreign country but might also mean that you are living in one of the States of the Union. Hence, even a person living in the one of the sovereign States could still be a member of the federal plantation and a "citizen of the United States".

Finally, the term "United States" can refer to the 50 sovereign States which are united under the Constitution for the United States of America. The federal plantation is not included in this definition because the Congress does not have exclusive legislative authority over any of the 50 sovereign States of the Union. Rights are retained by the States in the 9th and 10th Amendments and you are a "Citizen of these United States" or of "The States United".

Note that these three citizenships are in addition to that of the sovereign State Citizen.

Even the United States Code, Title 28, Section 1746, has two oaths that may be executed, one within the United States and one without the United States. This latter oath is subject to the laws not of the United States, but of the United States of America.

So if this second "United States" exists, what is seated on the federal plantation?

How about government agencies, for starters, such as the ones (the CFTC / NFA) that attempted to confiscate my free press, First Amendment protections?

Federal Reserve Bank.

Internal Revenue Service.

Social Security.

What is not included?

2nd Amendment gun rights, as an example.

You might be able to recall other infringements which govern your daily life and which would not exist were your unalienable rights and the protections secured by the Constitution upheld.

Can you now understand how the CFTC / NFA were able to claim that I had to register my book when such infringements are seemingly so clearly prohibited by the First Amendment?

The only logical explanation I have been able to conclude is the CFTC / NFA claimed jurisdiction over me through the District of Columbia federal plantation where Constitutional protections do not exist.

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), January 20, 2000.

From what I've been hearing on Truth Radio, the 14th Amendment (I think I have the number correct) was never ratified and therefore imposing a federal tax on us is UN-constitutional. At this point, I don't have enough information to want to challenge it, but know that there are many that have. It sounds complicated.....but worth the trouble if you understand all that it involved. It has something to do with declaring your 'straw man' and 'giving value' ...

-- KeninMarble (, January 21, 2000.


In a way, the foreign holdings of dollars will be "taxed", for there are so many of them that their holders will never get a "dollar's worth" out of the "dollar" they hold. It's not possible to redeem these "dollars" without radically devaluing the "dollars" themselves.

They're called US "dollars" (contrary to the constitutional definition of what a dollar is) because the government has "partnered" with this consortium of banks and allows them to do so. The Federal Government did this because it benefits directly from a partnership to control and direct the States and the People through the issuance of our so-called "money". Essentially, there was a silent coup in the 1913 whereby the States and the People voluntarily gave up the control of their destinies to the banks and the Federal Government.

Note that, since 1913, the banks and the Federal Government have grown to immense proportions, while the rights and sovereignty of the States and the People have continuously diminished. That fact is that the States and the People were lied to. Both the Federal Reserve System and the Income Tax Amendment were both completely, materially misrepresented in order to gain approval and enactment. Apart from Constitutional considerations, some tax critics believe that these gross misrepresentations, alone, to say nothing of the completely coercive nature of these systems, is grounds for immediate nullification and revocation of both the FED and the IRS.

And indeed, we are using Monopoly money. In fact, I'd venture that, someday, Monopoly money might well be worth more than the "dollar".

-- Nathan (, January 21, 2000.

Ok, guys if your going to get onto the Fed, then lets do it right so everybody who's new here can get the real message, right back from the begining. So for the nth time:

Consipiracy theories are just that, theories about what people think is going on. So lets not waste our time with those. Lets look and see what is really going on. And lets determine what is really going on by examining irrefutable sources such as the Congressional Records, the laws of the countries and what America's luminaries in the past have said about what is going on.

Without going into everything that is going on, lets just look at the irrefutable facts about one organization: The "Federal" Reserve.

For those of you who have not seen my posts and do not understand what the unregulated, unaudited, unaccountable private institution (which has nothing more to do with the Federal Government than Federal Express) known as the "Federal" Reserve is all about, and at the risk of repeating my self, onnnee moorrre time, (as you will see this issue is at the core of EVERY other issue and is without a doubt THE most critical issue, period), just look at the following irrefuatable facts about what the Federal Reserve is.

Not believing these facts would be difficult to do unless you are willing to refute decades of Congressional Records, many court cases and testimony from prominent people and be able to demonstrate the Framers of the Constitution, Jefferson, Jackson, McFadden and many luminaries from Americas past were all fighting some fantom and that text of the actual laws which were passed by congress concerning the Federal Reserve are all bogus.

The Federal Reserve and other such central banks are the real power brokers of any country as they control the issuance of currency. The governments where they operate are completely at their mercy. If you don't believe me then believe the following:

President James Garfield observed that "Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce." And we shouldn't forget old Anselm Rothschild, founder of the clan: "Give me the power to issue a nation's money; then I do not care who makes the laws."

It would seem settled, and indeed is obvious, that the creator of money in any community is a power to be reckoned with.

Now the Federal Reserve and Bank Of England are owned by Rothschilds and other German Banker Families and a few from the UK and are fully unaccountable to the governments of the countries they operate in and have never been audited.

Federal Reserve and the European Banker Families that own it have:

a) the power to get congress to pass an unconstituional law that gives them the sole power to print the "US" dollar (really the Federal Reserve dollar which the US uses as its currency). The Constitution strictly states that only Congress shall have the power to coin money.

So hideous is the Federal Reserve Act that it fully realized the Constitutional Framers worst fears.

You may be surprised to learn that the Federal Reserve is the fourth central bank the United States has had, the previous three having crashed in inevitable raging inflation and widespread economic disaster. So clearly did our Founders understand and fear worthless paper money forced on the public by legal tender laws (precisely what we now have) that they filled the proceedings of the Constitutional Convention with statements of their horror of it. Americans today, deprived of hearing such truth, need to listen to their words:

* George Mason of Virginia: I have a mortal hatred of paper money.

* John Langdon of New Hampshire: I would rather reject the whole [Constitution] than grant the new government the right to issue fiat money."

* George Reed of Delaware: The right to issue fiat money would be as alarming as the mark of the beast in Revelation."

* Thomas Paine: The punishment of a member of Congress who should move for such a law ought to be death."

b) the power to get congress to pass a law to allow them to remain private and unregualted, unauditable accountable to no one and pay no tax even though they are a private organization.

c) the power in 1862 to force the Congress to pass a law that states that the US government should not accept its own currency on import duties it levies on its own citizens and that the US government must accept payment of its Bonds in paper currency but pay interest to the bond holders in gold. Effectively they have the power to make the US Government announce to the world we don't think our currency is good enough for these two items and only gold should be used. Guess where they had to buy the gold from to pay the interest on the original debt. Guess where the importers had to buy the gold from to pay the duties. Guess who got all the gold back when the government paid its interest on its bonds. The bankers who bought the bonds in the first place.

d) The power to cause the US debt to go from $1B in 1913 when the Fed was set up to $24B by the late 20's. How? Because the Federal Government must borrow money simply to keep the currency in circulation. Ever heard of anything so stupid. Yet that is what has been going on since 1913. Ever wonder why the debt keeps growing. It is mathematically not possible for it be paid back.

e) the power to bring a sitting president (Woodrow Wilson) to his knees and state after he signed the Federal Reserve Act to state:

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."

f) McFadden states in his address to the House of Respresentatives at the height of the Depression:

"Mr. Chairman, we have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks.

"Thirteen months later, that promise was broken; and the Wilson administration, under the tutelage of those sinister Wall Street figures who stood behind Colonel House, established here in our free country the worm-eaten, monarchical institution of the "King's Bank," to control us from the top downward, and to shackle us from the cradle to the grave.

"One of the greatest battles for the preservation of this Republic was fought out here in [President] Jackson's day, when the Second Bank of the United Sates -- which was founded upon the same false principles as those which are exemplified in the Federal Reserve Act -- was hurled out of existence.

"Before the Senate Banking and Currency Committee, while the Federal Reserve Bill was under discussion, Mr. Crozier, of Cincinnati, said:

'In other words, the imperial power of elasticity of the public currency is wielded exclusively by these central corporations owned by the banks.'

"This is a life and death power over ALL local banks AND ALL BUSINESS. It can be used to create or destroy prosperity, to ward off or cause stringencies or panics.

"Every effort has been made by the Federal Reserve Board to conceal its power. But the truth is that the Federal Reserve Board has usurped the government of the United States.

"It controls everything here; and it controls our foreign relations. It makes or breaks governments at will."

The Bottom Line is the Fedeeral Reserves controls the country. If the government wishes to do X, and the Fed doesn't agree, X will not be done. If the Fed wants to do Y, the government will comply else the Fed will induce a financial crisis that would get the government thrown out. End of story.

This is called power. This is the power to dictate the American Government. This is the power to have the full resources of the American Government at your disposal to do with as you please. Do not assume for a moment that this power will be foresaken for anybody any time soon.

This power has been enjoyed be these Banker Families since 1694.

In 1694 William III was involved in a war with France. He needed money and he needed it in large quantities. The British coffers were empty so he asked for vast loans of money from a super-rich Englishman named William Paterson and some of his wealthy friends. Paterson and his friends were perfectly agreeable to the loan providing they were allowed to do two things:

1.Set up a privately-owned bank to be called the Bank of England.

2.Receive authority from the king to issue their own bank notes or certificates as the official legal tender of England.

Everything else that you hear and see in the news is just a distraction to keep your attention away from the real worry: The Federal Reserve. You are slaves of the Federal Reserve through your taxes which go to pay them interest and through their control of inflation. They require you to pay taxes so they can collect interest. They require the IRS for this. The IRS requires Social Security for this as that is how they have juridiction over you. Guess what? Everybody knows Social Security is the only government agency that has been taking y2k seriously and has been working on it for 10 years. Ever wonder why? Its because they won't let their jurisdiction and control fail.

In 1862 the Bank of England/Rothschilds (do not be deceived by name, "Bank of England"; Bank of England was/is a *private* bank) issued and distributed to American banksters a document, The Hazard Circular, quoted in part below:

"Slavery is likely to be abolished by the war power, and chattel slavery abolished. This, I and my European friends are in favor of, for slavery is but the *owning of labor*, and carries with it the *care of labor*, while the European plan, led on by England, is that capital shall control labor by controlling wages. The great debt that capitalists will see to it is made out of the [Civil] war must be used to control the value of money. To accomplish this, the Government bonds must be used as a banking basis.

"We are now waiting for the Secretary of the Treasury of the United States to make this recommendation. It will not do to allow greenbacks, as they are called, to circulate as money any length of time, as we cannot control that, but we can control the bonds and through them the bank issues."

Like I said this is called power, the rest is irrelevant and just a distraction to keep your mind busy.

What ever you may think of Trump, he is the *only* candidate to come along and take on squarely what has been described as the most "corrupt instituion in the world". The unaccountable, unaudited, unregulated, privatly institution known as the "Federal" Reserve which is much a government agency as Federal Express.

You see his plan to pay of the debt (which by the way is a no-brainer for the rich as they know that Trump also intends to also do away with the 55% inheritance tax, which the media never mention, so the rich either pay 15% once now, or pay 55% once later - what would you do?) means that the Federal Reseve will be shut down once and for all (he just not saying this openly, however those in the know understand this is the invetiable outcome) and here's why.

Firstly the privatly owned Federal Reserve banks have the sole monoploy to issue their bank note. The US decided to use their bank note as its currency - this is in clear violation of the Constituion which states that only Congress has that power.

Now the Fed can't issue any currency unless it is "backed" by some debt. It used to be gold, before the Fed, then it became 60% gold 40% debt after the Fed was created, then it became "any like asset", then it became only debt.

So the Fed buys up US government bonds (because it likes the guarantee that comes with them (i.e. you'll pay up through taxes)), although they could buy up any debt - say your mortgage, or how about an IOU to a German munition supplier from Japan (i.e. an invoice from the German's to the Japanese). In actual fact just prior to WWII that is exactly what the fed was buyin up, but I digress (see Congressman McFadden's speech linked below).

Once they have the debt in their hand they can issue their bank note (dollar bills) against them. Actually 16 times the amount of the debt.

Lets say there are X trillion dollars in circulation and the Fed now "prints" up another 2 billion dollars backed by some US government bond they have bought. They fully expect the US Government to pay them interest on this bond.

Now pay attention here is the clincher that Trump is after. When they print up the 2 billion there are now X+2 billion in circulation. As the government pays off the bond they pay the 2 Billion PLUS Y amount of interest. So the amoung of dollars left in circulation is X-2-Y. Notice the ciruculation became tighter because there are less dollars left in circulation. Well you can't leave this situation because eventually all bonds will be paid back and that will pay back all of X, but what about the interest. There just is not enough in circulation to pay that back because it was never "printed" by the Fed and put into circulation.

The answer put the money back into circulation. Well by law the Fed can't do that unless they have some new debt. So the US government borrows 2 billion + Y dollars from the Fed by issuing a new bond and the Fed promptly "prints" up the money and restores the currency. But now the US government has to pay a new bond back of 2 B + Y along with Z interest.

I hope you are fast on the uptake here because you should have just realized that it is mathematically impossible with this to *ever* pay off the debt and you and all the generations to come after your therefore will continue to always pay increasing taxes.

So how do you do actually get rid of the debt - you pay off the $6 trillion as Trump suggests. You shut down the Federal Reserve, because you obviously do not want to borrow it back again, and you print $6 trillion of Contituional or US Treseasury Notes. That is a currency issued by the Government.

Now you can see if you truly wish to have freedom in America you need to understand the racket the bankers have got happening in every country with a central bank they own (like the Bank of England as well) and then you will understand what Trump is *really* after.

For a history of how many times in the past America has had to do this to get rid of these illegal privately owned central banks and the untold damage they have done since the Declaration of Independenc read the book "The Comming Battle" which was written in 1899. Link to full text below. I guarantee its the most riveting piece you'll ever have read and makes Tom Clancy's novels read like kindergarten stories. Its a factual record based on the Congressional Records and therefore can't be dismissed as "opinion" etc.


Source links for those who want to read about his themselves:

McFaddeen speech to House of Representatives

The Comming Battle

Book written in 1899 documenting from irrefutable congressional records and laws passed the first 3 attempts to set up central banks since the time of Jefferson and shows the power wielded by the European Banker Families. As I said, makes a Tom Clancy novel read like a kindergarten story.

President Jackson's veto message for the United States Bank

OT?IF Y2k is such a threat why is gold/silver so cheap

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), January 21, 2000.

I'm a non filer. I still live in my home and I'm a free man. No IRS has tried to put me in prison. Once a non filer, the IRS loses jurisdiction. If they try something funny or threaten you, just challenge their jurisdiction and they will leave you alone. However, if you cower to their threats and try to deal with them, you automatically give them jurisdiction by arguing your case with them. I know this is true, because I have in my possession a dismissal for lack of jurisdiction from the US Tax Court! I simply told them they had no jurisdiction over me!

-- fffrrreeeeddddoooommmm (, January 21, 2000.

2 Retired IRS Agents "EXPOSE" the income tax scam.

We are 2 retired IRS Agents and we have witnessed the IRS defrauding Americans for many years. It is destroying the freedoms of ALL Americans. It "MUST STOP" and it is now time to expose this fraud to ALL Americans.

We challenge you to ask ANY IRS Agent to show you a Statute that "REQUIRES" Americans to FILE Income Tax. They cannot find it. There is NO LAW that makes ANY American "liable" or "subject" to pay or file Income Tax. IRS fraud expert, Irwin Schiff 702-877-2833 offers a $5000 award to anyone who can find such a statute.

Bill Conklin from Denver offers a $50,000 reward. His phone number is 303-455-0837, in case you can find such a Statute. His web site is He also offers a "free book" about the IRS that you can download and print up.

The IRS has for many years used Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Implementing and Enforcement Regulations (Title 27) to "ENFORCE" the Federal Income Tax (Title 26) and has used the ATF Regulations to fraudulently take homes and bank accounts away from Americans. Because the Income Tax is voluntary and un-Constitutional, the IRS Code has NO Enforcement Regulations! So in order to BLUFF Americans into paying Income Tax, the IRS uses Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Implementing Regulations to force and to defraud all Americans into paying Income tax that they are not required to pay.

The IRS is DEFRAUDING ALL Americans and is bankrupting and impoverishing America by "GIVING" all our Income Tax payments to the Federal Reserve Bank in payment for the "PHONY' Federal Debt. Look on the back of each and every check of Income Tax payment you have ever paid to the IRS. With the stamp shown below,the IRS has signed over ALL your Income Tax Payments to the Federal Reserve bank. YOUR INCOME TAX IS NOT USED TO RUN OUR GOVERNMENT. This fraud will BANKRUPT America.

The IRS has been defrauding Americans for many years. The IRS has even sent ALL your Social Security payments to the Federal Reseve Bank. Go check it out for yourself and then you will know FOR SURE that we are telling the TRUTH.

******************************************* THIS IS AN IRS CHECK ENDORSEMENT.

Pay any F.R.B. Branch or Gen. Depository for credit U.S. Treas. This is in payment of US. oblig; Must be paid in par N.P. Do not wire none-payment.20-09-0900 Dir.I.R.S. CTR. Kansas City, Missoury. *******************************************

The Federal Reserve Bank IS NOT a Federal bank, but is a private Bank owned by FOREIGN BANKERS who do not pay Income tax! Rothchild, (London), Lazard Bros. (Paris), Israel Seiff, (Italy), Kuhn-Loeb-Warburg,Lehman-Goldman-Sachs-Rockefeller, (New York). In fact, the Federal Reserve Bank has NEVER EVER been audited. Your Phone book PROVES that it is not a Federal Bank. They are listed in the Yellow Pages with all the other "PRIVATE BANKS." They put "Federal" in their name to deceive WE Americans. The Federal Reserve Bank is draining the American economy with the "phony" Income Tax.


The Federal Reserve Bank is destroying America! America "WAS" the richest nation on earth, until 1913, when the Federal Reserve Bank was created by foreign Bankers. This was passed in Congress on Christmas "EVE" 1913, when most Congressmen had gone home for Christmas. It was passed by Un-American Congressmen, who had been paid-off and bribed by the wealthy foreign bankers.

Now America is bankrupt with a $6 Trillion phony Federal debt, because EVERY single dollar in circulation has been "BORROWED" from the Federal Reserve Bank. The US Treasury prints our money and then "sells" it to the Federal Reserve Bank for the printing cost. The US Treasury then borrows it back and then we the people pay interest on the "FACE VALUE" of our money to the Federal Reserve Bank with our Income Tax payments to pay for the "PHONY" debt. This is the BIGGEST FRAUD in US history. This is a deliberate and planned bankruptcy to destroy America. Governments are the creators of money, and should not have to borrow it from a foreign private Bank.

Congressman Louis T. Mc Fadden, Chairman House Banking said..."The Federal Reserve Bank CAUSED the Great Depression by DELIBERATELY witholding money out of circulation"...Congressional Record May 23,1933. After 3 attempts on his life, Mc Fadden was poisoned at a banquet! Can you guess who killed him? They steal and plunder from America, but they even kill Americans.

Congress has been lying to you because it is mathematically impossible to pay off the debt or balance the budget with "BORROWED MONEY". President Woodrow Wilson confessed on his deathbed that he committed TREASON against ALL Americans. The Federal Reserve Bank will soon force America into bankruptcy when the interest on the debt has become un-payable. This will cause an economic collapse. This is when our corrupt Government will bring in the "New World Order" and we will be ruled by the United Nations. We will then lose our freedoms and Constitution.

We have already lost our Constitution and Common Law in the US Courts. All US Courts are now under Maritime Military Law with the New World Order, "Gold Fringed US Flag" (Army Regulations 260-10) "displayed" in every US Courtroom with a conviction rate of 97.3%. All US Judges have perjured their Oath to uphold the Constitution and are in CONTEMPT of the Constitution. Just seek the protection of the Constitution and the Judge will tell you to "shut up and sit down". This could NEVER happen in a Common Law Court.

All US Banks also display the Gold Fringed Flag. Many US Police Officers are starting to wear a gold fringed flag patch on their uniforms. Millions of Americans "unknowingly" pledge allegiance to the "Gold Fringed New World Order Flag" at schools, churches and scout meetings.

Our one dollar bill is proof of conspiracy by the Fed. Since 1935 our one dollar bill has had an "Occult" symbol of the all-seeing eye of the Anti-Christ that reads "Annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum". Meaning "Announcing the birth of the New World Order". This is absolute proof of Conspiracy by the Federal Reserve Bank to destroy and enslave Americans.


Henry Kissinger said, Nafta and Gatt are the major stepping stones towards the New World Order. Nafta and Gatt caused 28.6% unemployment in Clay County, Tennessee. In 3 years Nafta has cost Americans over 700,000 jobs and more to come! Congress has "SOLD OUT AMERICA.! By the way, what ever happened to the "CONTRACT WITH AMERICA?" How can they forget so easy? That was just a big farce!

America's Founding Fathers formed our Government to SERVE WE THE PEOPLE and to give us "FREEDOM". Our Government has defrauded WE THE PEOPLE and has turned this around and now ALL Americans are ENSLAVED by our Government by working 5 months EVERY YEAR to pay the Phony Income Tax. That should make you "MAD AS HELL. Read on and you'll get even MADDER.

Our Constitution, Section 9 reads......"No direct Tax shall be laid". This has NEVER been repealed. IT IS STILL LAW. This renders the 16th Amendment invalid. You cannot have two opposing statutes in the Constitution. The Income Tax is a Constitutional violation, if enforced by the IRS. Only if the tax is voluntary, can it be Constitutional.

The IRS Code, Title 26 has NEVER been enacted by Congress into POSITIVE LAW. The proof is in the inside cover of all Titles of US Codes at your local Library. Section 7401 of Title 26 claims that the IRS does not have the power to lien, levy or seize property WITHOUT a Court Order. The IRS NEVER uses Court Orders.

"Notice of Levy" or Lien is just that, a notice, THERE IS NO ACTUAL LIEN! The IRS cannot produce that document when you demand to see it.

Americans, you need to challenge the IRS when they try to take your property or bank account away from you without a Court Order. Without a Court Order they DO NOT HAVE JURISDICTION to take ANYTHING.

The IRS has been illegally stealing and plundering from Americans for decades. It is a known fact among IRS Agents that the IRS is responsible for over 500 suicides per month, over half the divorces and 3/4 of the bankruptcies.


The proof....IRS Agents cars DO NOT have Government EX-empt License Plates! Most IRS Agents have no clue why. All Government Agencies get "FREE" license plates. Why not the IRS? IRS Agents don't even know why. Most of them have no clue.

Many years ago the Telephone Company "gave" the IRS a Government listing, because of many complaints from people who could not find them in the phone book. The IRS was created through a Puerto Rico Trust and is no more Federal than the Federal Express! As a private Corporation, the IRS is NOT registered to do business in ANY State! Without a Business License, by Law they cannot legally be engaged in business. A "heavy graduated Income Tax" is the Second Plank of the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx 1848! Income Tax is the very core of Communism.

The IRS is only a collection Agency for the EVIL Federal Reserve Bank. The US Tax Court is located in Washington, DC. and has NO branches in ANY State! This is because the IRS ONLY has Jurisdiction (Authority) in the District of Columbia. Challenge their Jurisdiction and refuse to pay their $65 filing fee and your case will be DISMISSED. They only have Jurisdiction "IF" you pay the filing fee, because then you have entered into their arena.

Many IRS publications and IRS Agents handbooks claim that the Income Tax is VOLUNTARY. The word "mandantory" cannot be found in the IRS Code, Title 26. Why do you voluntarily pay Income Tax? Nowhere in the IRS Code can you find a Statute that says that ALL Americans are required to pay Income Tax........NOWHERE!

The US Supreme Court has ruled in Flora vs. USA 362 U.S.145. that the Income Tax is VOLUNTARY. They ruled that..."Our Tax system is based upon voluntary assessment and payment, NOT upon distraint" (Force). Tax liability does not appear on the 1040 Form and is not "defined" ANYWHERE in the IRS Code.

Every Statute says, "IF YOU ARE LIABLE" then you have to do this and do that. They also state that, "if you have a Taxable year"....."IF" means that YOU have to determine IF.... So if you determine that you are Liable and that IF you determine that you have a Taxable year, then you can "voluntear to pay Income Tax. If you determine that you are not liable or that you do not have a Taxable year, you are not "REQUIRED" to pay the Tax.

It is "YOU" who determines that you are liable by voluntarily filing a 1040 Form. Americans make themselves liable by filing Income Tax. If you don't file, you're not liable. Off course the IRS will try to "bluff" you into filing by sending you phony enforcement letters, quoting ATF Enforcement Statutes and Regulations.

Before you stop filing, to give you piece of mind, we suggest you place all your assets in a Trust. Your assets should be in a Trust anyway for all kinds of circumstances and protection. If you have no assets, no sweat. Then claim 9 dependents and stop filing and paying Income Tax. Then wisely invest the money saved and then retire in style as a millionaire. Then you will not need Social UN-Security.

The IRS Code, Title 26, only applies to Tax payers and NOT to NON-Tax payers. Always respond to their letters with this statement and tell them they have no Jurisdiction over you. This is called "THE BIGGEST INCOME TAX LOOPHOLE". In fact that this the name of a book by Otto Skinner. $45. P.O.Box 6609, San Pedro, Ca. 90734. This is one of the best books on the Income Tax. Plainly said...."the Income Tax Laws DO NOT apply to you if you do not file a 1040 Return, because you are not a Tax payer". If you are not a Tax payer, you are not liable for the Tax.


When you sign the 1040 Form under penalties of "PERJURY", you waive your Fifth Amendment Rights, which state that you CANNOT be compelled to give "POTENTIALLY" incriminating evidence against yourself. This makes the Income Tax Un-Constitutional, because the IRS requires that signature. They get away with this by declaring that the income tax is "voluntary". This is why the IRS Code Statutes say..."If you are liable"... Because if you pay Income Tax, you volunteer to pay. When you volunteer, then you make yourself liable.

The Fourth and Fifth Ammendment of the Bill of Rights give you the right to "refuse" to show your records during an audit. Only if you voluntarily show your records, can the IRS Agent audit them. Americans, STOP VOLUNTEERING anything the IRS asks you to do. They have absolutely No Jurisdiction and Authority over you.


In 1991, the IRS reported that there were 163 Million Taxpayers. In a seperate report they claimed they received 111 Million Tax filings for that year. That is 52 Million that do not file Income tax. IRS Commissioner Peggy Richardson claimed in 1991 that one out of five has stopped paying Income Tax and that the Tax revolt is growing. None of them are in jail. Only a handfull is in jail because they yielded to IRS jurisdiction. In fact, you can only go to jail for falsifying Income Tax Returns, when you sign the 1040 Form under penalties of perjury. If you don't file, they DO NOT have jurisdiction. Without Jurisdiction they have no Case.

If they take you to Court,DO NOT HIRE A LAWYER. A Lawyer is an Officer of the Court and he will argue the Case for you because that is how he earns money. REFUSE to enter the Court and stay BEHIND the little fence and challege their Jurisdiction and DO NOT EVER argue the case. Once you argue the case, then you have yielded to their Jusrisdiction.

Become educated and eliminate fear of the IRS. Order the book "Economic Solutions" $8.95. Quality Press. 2888 Bluff Street. Suite 315. Boulder, Colorado. Also order "IRS under Indictment" and learn how to legally stop paying Income Tax. Advantage Publishing 1-916-222-4684.

Devvy Kidd, 12453 West Baltic Ave. Lakewood, Colorado 80228, also has very infomative books. Write her for a brochure!

Senator Henry Belmon in 1969 said....If Tax payers EVER discover that the IRS operates on 90% bluff, the entire system will collapse. Before 1940 there was no Income Tax. To finance World War ll, we paid a VICTORY TAX, which was repealed in 1944. Why are Americans still paying this VICTORY TAX? It is because Americans are COMPLACENT and have fear of the IRS, because the IRS has cleverly made Americans think that they are required to pay Tax.

Order Irwin Schiff's book, "The Federal Mafia" $25 from Freedom Books, Post Office Box 5326, Evansville, IN. 47716. This book is also a MUST. Irwin will show you that....No law requires you to file Income Tax returns! No law requires you to pay Income Taxes. No law requires you to keep books for Income Tax purposes. No law authorizes the IRS to audit you. No law authorizes employers to withold Tax from wages. Talk to Irwin about your Tax problem at 1-702-877-2833. Become educated and order his video's and audio cassettes. He can be found on the internet. His Web site is http:/ If you have a computer, enter patriot, tax fraud, IRS fraud, etc, on your Search Engines and learn more of what we have been telling you in this letter.


President Ronald Reagan, May 1983.... "Our Federal Tax system is, in short, utterly impossible, utterly unjust and completely counter productive. It reeks with injustice and is fundamentally UN-American! It has earned a rebellion, and it is time we rebelled.

Eliminate the IRS out of your life, explained on 2 video's,$40. 702-853-2342. IRS Jurisdiction investigated,$25, on video, call 801-377-0570. Weekly Newspaper "The Spotlight" exposes Government fraud. 1-800-522-6292. Their web site is

Congress MUST SAVE AMERICA and abolish the "GESTAPO" IRS, Federalize the Federal Reserve Bank, and throw out the foreign bankers from our money system and start printing interest free Constitutional money. (US Notes!) The Constitution only gives Congress the right to create our money and NOT a private bank, run by foreigners.

Income Tax will then no longer be neccesary. Excise Tax, Tariffs and Duties will then pay for Government. When the British Taxed the Colonies, John Adams, John Hancock and other Patriots had the "GUTS" to rebel against their 5% Tax with the Boston Tea Party and the American Revolution. Our country became free because of a 5% tax. Without these hero's we would still be paying Tax to the Queen of England. America needs HERO'S like that again to take our wonderful country back from the "BLOOD SUCKING MONEY CHANGERS".

Now Federal Taxes are up to 39.6%. THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE. All Americans MUST become Patriots and UNITE to restore Constitutional Government. Massive Civil disobedience is a "proper form" of Petition for Redress of Grievances and Political Protest. This is the ONLY way to wake up Congress. We Americans MUST force Congress to finally END the Income Tax scam. Imagine what your life will be like without Income Tax! You would be living a life of luxury.


You MUST sacrifice your time and effort to help us inform other Americans. Being complacent will not save America. Americans have been complacent long enough. Send this message to all your local Politicians, friends, neighbors and relatives. Also send to your local Talk Radio's. When 100 million Americans stop filing Income Tax, the IRS will be powerless and Congress will be forced to stop the "phony" Income Tax.

Mark Twain..."In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, only then the timid join him". Our great country needs true Patriots again. Our Government is totally out of control. Our Government was created to serve We The People. Now we Americans have become the slaves and servants of our Government. Americans are not free anymore.

Our Government forces all Americans to obtain a permit or a license to do ANYTHING. Without these Permits and Licenses we would be breaking the Law. WHAT KIND OF FREEDOM IS THAT? Licenses and Permits are used to control us and to steal money from us. Our Government has taken away our basic God given freedoms! Our Government has TOTAL control over Americans.

If you want to be free again, we Americans need to overthrow the MOST corrupt Agency first and that is the IRS.

As retired IRS Agents we learned long ago about IRS and Federal Reserve fraud. Because we love America, we MUST expose the IRS Monster we have worked for. It is YOUR Patriotic DUTY to help us spread this news to ALL AMERICANS. Please copy and mail to others! It's your patriotic duty! UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL!

Earl Sorensen & Fred Fuller.

-- ... (, January 21, 2000.

Just my slant on things, but...

Income tax is levied on net profit? Our government decides we are worth $15450 (married + 1 child) and anything over that is taxable "income". The idea is that it takes a minimum amount of FRNs to pay for a base standard of living and any more is profit. In the real world I am tradeing a like sum for a like sum and no one is getting ahead (making a profit). My boss and I have both decided that 1 hour of my time is worth $12 but the government has set the bar at about $7.43 for 1 full time wage earner with 2 dependants working 40 hours per week for 52 weeks and tax anything above that amount. You get more free money for things like extreem health care costs and overpriced morgage interest and other deductable expences.

I think this qualifies as socialism?

Please comment

-- Just passin through (, January 21, 2000.

BTW Vote for Alan Keyes. He is the only candidate from one of the big 2 parties who wants to eliminate the IRS and income taxes in favor of tariffs and sales taxes. Orin Hatch might just become the second candidate to favor this after his comments in the Iowa Republican debate, But I don't think he has said so yet. Has anyone else noticed that the free ads in the form of "news" stories for the candidates is generaly in direct proportion to the amount of money spent on paid political advertisements?

-- Just passin through (, January 21, 2000.

Irwin Schiff is the leadingproponent of this whole point of view. the last time I checked he was listing his return address as one of our Federal Institutions of Higher Security. One of those places where YOU don't get to decide ANYTHING and your view is curtailed by bars.

Night train

-- jes a un-incarcerated footballer (nighttr@in.lane), January 21, 2000.

Taxes are not "illegal". Anyone who says that you don't have to pay taxes is full of crap. I have 49 pages of legal analysis which establishes the constitutionality of the income tax. I am not even going to go into it here. State a specific reason why you don't think you have to pay an imcome tax, and I'll refute it (BUT, "it's unconstitutional" is not a specific reason -- WHY do you think it is unconstituional, ot illegal?)

-- Freethinkr (, January 21, 2000.

1) It contradicts the original Constitution without revocation of the original language.

2) It wasn't properly ratified. The required number of states didn't vote for the 16th Amendment, but it was "approved" anyway (because it had to be approved).

3) The 16th Amendment, its purpose, its limitations, and its effects were all patently misrepresented leading up to its non-ratification.

4) The 16th Amendment is essentially in violation of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" in very fundamental ways.

5) The 16th Amendment is Socialism. Socialism doesn't work, except maybe for the politburo.

-- Hey, you! (, January 21, 2000.

1. There is nothing in the COnstitution that says than an amm. must repeal another provision of the Const. There are 27 amm, and only one specifically repeals an earlier provision (21st repeals 18th).

Your claim was addressed by the US Sup. Ct. in Brushaber, 240 U.S. 1 (1916). The court concluded that the language of the 16th amm. was absolutely right.

2. Wrong. See U.S. v. Thomas, 788 F.2d 1250 (7th Cir. 1986), cert. den. 107 S.Ct. 187 (1986). In addition, NO state has EVER claimed that it did not ratify the 16th amm.

3. Please explain. The language of the amm. is quite clear.

4.This argument is silly and will not be addressed. I'd say the 18th was also a violation of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

5. Last time I checked, the Constitution did not prohibit socialism (I'm just making a point, here. Another to consider -- what if the people of this country want socialism??? Is it prohibited?)

-- Freethinkr (, January 21, 2000.

You might find interesting.


-- George Valentine (, January 21, 2000.

I checked out Yes, it is interesting, but it also presents flawed arguments. For intstance, it states that the US is a corporation. Do you know what a corporation is? If so, why would the US need to be a corporation? Illogical.

Also, it states that all the states are "sub-corporations," evidenced by the fact that they have all changed their name to "State." Well, I'm looking at the Pennsylvania Constitution, and I cite: "we, the people of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania...." Show me ANYWHERE where Pennsylvania refers to itself as the "State of Pennsylvania".

-- Freethinkr (, January 21, 2000.


It's fun to see someone willing to play Devil's Advocate in this.

1. There is nothing in the Constitution that says than an amm. must repeal another provision of the Const. There are 27 amm, and only one specifically repeals an earlier provision (21st repeals 18th). Your claim was addressed by the US Sup. Ct. in Brushaber, 240 U.S. 1 (1916). The court concluded that the language of the 16th amm. was absolutely right.

You're right, nothing except rational thought, justice, and plain common sense.

2. Wrong. See U.S. v. Thomas, 788 F.2d 1250 (7th Cir. 1986), cert. den. 107 S.Ct. 187 (1986). In addition, NO state has EVER claimed that it did not ratify the 16th amm.

The contravening documentation is quite explicit. What do you think the "courts" are going to say? They rescinded their validity a long time ago. Inverting the intent of the Constitution under the color of law is nothing to be proud of, much less a basis in "law", much less a basis in natural law.

3. Please explain. The language of the amm. is quite clear.

The 16th Amendment was advertised as a "soak the rich" program, riding on the legitimate Trust Buster sentiment rampant throughout the nation. Even in spite of this misrepresentation, the Amendment was not properly ratified. In any event, we can see that the results are the complete opposite of the so-called advertised "intent". The People pay this excessive, unConstitutional tax, and the Politburo and their manipulating Foundations pay nothing.

4.This argument is silly and will not be addressed. I'd say the 18th was also a violation of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

It's quite humorous to see efforts to point out elements that contradict the very basis of our form of government characterized as "silly". That's really quite an argument.

5. Last time I checked, the Constitution did not prohibit socialism (I'm just making a point, here. Another to consider -- what if the people of this country want socialism??? Is it prohibited?)

The last time I checked, the Constitution does prohibits a few things, like a direct tax, which I thought we were discussing. If the people of this country "want" Socialism, it would be because they've been trained, directed, bribed, lied to, and coerced into "wanting" Socialism, and they'll get Socialism. Socialism doesn't work. It never will work. History has shown its a crock, a fraud, a deceit  Totalitarian. National Socialism didn't work. Communism doesn't work. The welfare state doesn't work, and plunder of a man's efforts doesn't work. Remember? Do you know ANY history? Or are the Russian and Chinese examples total frauds?

-- Hey, you! (, January 21, 2000.

* * * 20000120 Friday

Nathan (

Bartering _IS_ taxable.

In 1983-1984 I developed a computerized system for a (now-defunct) bartering trade association based in Madison Heights, Michigan.

The final change I had to make to the system was a data bucket for "Accrued_Trade_Units" for each member. The IRS got wise to the then-growing "underground" bartering economy and issued a ruling that bartering was taxable. It was a nightmare trying to figure out what the new "rules" meant--not my job, fortunately.

So, as far as I know, bartering activity _IS_ fully subject to the tax-sters.

Anyone have a different take on this?

Regards, Bob Mangus

* * *

-- Robert Mangus (, January 21, 2000.


Interesting. I believe as long as the 'trade units' aren't converted into 'dollars', there can be no tax, as the tax is "dollars". Can the IRS force this conversion? I suppose they would try, wanting to make an example of any jurisdiction that attempted to throw off the FRS shackles. I'd tell them to get bent.

-- Nathan (, January 21, 2000.

1. Re: direct tax. A "direct tax" has never been prohibited by the COnstitution. In Hylton v. U.S., 3 u.s. 171 (1796), the Supreme Court unanimously decided that Congress could impose a tax on a citizen of Virginia. Of the four justices which heard this case, THREE were members of the Constitutional Convention that drafted the Constitution. You have to assume that they understood the import of a direct tax.

2. Re: silly arguments...go into Court with the argument that a tax violates your right to L,L, and the POH and see how far you get...that's one of those "frivilous" arguments that the Court poo-poo's.

3. Pre 16th amm, the USSCt permitted the use of an income tax. In Pollock, 158 U.S. 601 (1895), the USSCt decided that Congress could tax wages and other income from employment. The 16th amm only affected one issue -- a tax on income derived from personal property.

4. I never said that I wanted Socialism. I'm merely stating that, if a "new Constitution" was drafted, which was Socialist in nature, and ratified properly, then that would be the law of the land.

5. All of my arguments are based upon legal decisions, which are founded in the holdings of the USSCt, which has come to the conclusion that the 16th amm. was properly ratified. If you disagree with my basic premise, the USSCt's holdings, then you will also deny all of my legal analysis, i.e., if I tell you that the Earth is round, and you refuse to believe it, it does not matter if I try to prove its roundness to you.

-- Freethinkr (, January 21, 2000.


I do deny all of your legal analysis, for, as it is all in violation of natural law, it is all in vain. It is interesting that you use an allusion to a natural, physical system, the Earth, to lend credence to a totally facile, fabricated system - the so-called "law", administered by the so-called, illegitimate, unConstitutional "government". Nice try, no points.

There is a apt parallel to the physical world, though, and that is natural law, the ideology upon which this country was, in fact, founded. Read the Declaration of Independence just for grins. The Constitution attempted to codify the natural law principles outlined in the Declaration of Independence. It failed. For the Constitution either allows for its own violation of these natural principles, or it is, apparently, powerless to stop them. It is a defective document, though, in good faith, they did attempt a universally just government. The next one will be better, should the world ever get the chance to create a Constitutional Republic again.

You can hide behind bogus, inverted court rulings all day long - it matters not a whit. A man is sovereign under natural law. He is free under natural law. He voluntarily combines with others to establish order, not to give up his Rights, but to protect and extend his Rights. The right of property is a Fundamental Right, and the methods, intrusions, and injustices of the Income Tax, among others, is a direct violation of this Fundamental Right. Any court that subverts the Constitution and rules in opposition the basic natural law principles upon which this country was founded, with the express threat of force, is working, not for the People, but for the People's would be masters, not for the Sovereign Individual, but for the nascent Socialist Totalitarian State. They're all boot-licking whores and wallow in their whoredom.

Free Thinker, youve a lot of thinking to do.

-- Hey, you! (, January 21, 2000.

freethinkr said, "I checked out Yes, it is interesting, but it also presents flawed arguments. For intstance, it states that the US is a corporation. Do you know what a corporation is? If so, why would the US need to be a corporation? Illogical."

As I understand it, the corporation was set up to administer the bankruptcy of the united States of America which was admitted in a forum in Geneva during the early 1930s. The present day United States of America _is_ a corporation. (There is a difference between the united States of America and The United States of America or United States of America.) That is why all federal courts are Admiralty courts, why the flags therein have the gold fringes, etc.

It may seem illogical, but it is part of a vast deception. You can reject the notion out of hand, or you could do some research and perhaps come to a different conclusion. If it is important to you, you will expend the effort.


-- George Valentine (, January 21, 2000.

Arguing with you is futile b/c you not only deny the validity of the Constitution, but of every law on the books in this country. Good for you! I live in reality and you live in fantasy.

-- Freethinkr (, January 21, 2000.


Would you care to comment on my post higher up titled "On Citizenship"

I believe that is from the real world at least based on the last time I checked the Supreme Court wass in the real world.

The person who made the article you will see makes no bones about who is and where he can be found, so I believe he's from the real world too.

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), January 21, 2000.

Now, now, F, nothing to be gained by misrepresenting my position. It's such a very weak tactic. The Simple Truth's a Bitch, isn't it?

The Constitution and the properly ratified Amendments are the sole basis of law in this collection of Sovereign States, and the Declaration of Independence and the deliberations of the Constitutional Convention are it's direct parentage and intent. This, and only this, is what the States and the People voluntarily agree to. Those "laws" outside this sphere, especially in contravention of this sphere, are pure bunk. Clear enough?

-- Hey, you! (, January 21, 2000.

Hey you:

Would you care to comment on my post earlier up in this thread titled "On Citizenship". You might want to read the source article linked. I think you'll find the info quite nicely supported from the Supreme Court and should set FreeThinker back a bit in his wishfull thinking.

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), January 21, 2000.


The "courts" play all sorts of games with names, entities, semantics, definitions, etc. They'll redefine what "is" means, if it suits their nefarious pseudo-rationalizations. They'll tell you what the "law" is when it isn't. These words are their tools. It's a small help to differentiate the wrecking ball from the battering ram when it arrives, for those utilizing these tools could care less.

We need no one holding the threat of force to our faces telling us what their version of the "law" "is". The LAW is basic, it's natural, it's common sense, and it's presented in plain language to be understood by all. Anything beyond this, and it's a game, it's a control system, it's a phony priesthood of sanctimonious self-serving litigation, it's contortion and distortion, it's maneuvering, it's theft, it's violence, and it's outright lying with the overt threat of force. Perversion of the law is worse than no law at all, for perversion of the law legitimizes lawlessness for the benefit of the few against the long-suffering patience of the many.

Any system founded on a perversion of natural law, or falling into such a state, will, eventually, self-destruct. It's a natural fact.

-- Hey, you! (, January 21, 2000.

Hey you:

Now say what you *really* mean, and don't hold back on me. :)

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), January 21, 2000.

Wow troops!! I caught on to this thread late, but I see that my efforts are not much needed. However I still have 2 or 3 cents to throw in to the pot...

1> Look up the definition of "income" using a dictionary from the 1913-1916 period or before. I believe that you will find no use of the words "wages, compensation" or the like. Instead you will see that income means capital gains or the money that is made purely from money. Amazing that Clintons forebears were able to get such important words changed IN A DICTIONARY so quietly.

2> Legal definitions are truly amazing. Expecially those relating to 'citizenship'. All I know is that I was born in New York state and have lived here 27 out of 29 years. I was never informed of any contract or other such document that would place me under the jurisdiction of the Federal united States goverment; thus according the the powers we the people gave to the Union, they have no jurisdiction over me.

3> I do not, nor will I ever again pay federal income tax. I have followed the law in doing so. I will not volunteer money to thieves, murderers, and rapists. Nor should any moral person.

Real name is Brent James Bushardt. Come get me IRS. I am not under your jurisdiction nor will I ever be.

UCC 1-207 I reserve all my rights...without prejudice.

-- Brent James Bushardt (, January 21, 2000.

Brent, you've hit the nail right on the head. It's all about jurisdiction! You either submit to IRS jurisdiction, or you stand up to them and challenge their jurisdiction.

I challenged the US Tax Court located in Washington DC. and they dismissed my case for lack of jurisdiction. This is the last I heard from the IRS!!!! You are home free if you challenge the IRS jurisdiction! The US Tax Court is not located in any States, because they only have jurisdiction over Government empoyees working in Washington DC. US Citizens are not liable or subject to the tax!!!

-- fffrrrreeeeeeeeeddddoooommmm (, January 22, 2000.

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