My last post to the forum.

Summing up:

The infant body in the first century needed special gifts. This included the H.S. making men able to look after the flock *they were among*. We now have the word (guidance of the H.S.) and the special gifts have ceased.

The N.T. interprets itself. Jesus said in Matt. there would not be people exercising authority over others in His kingdom "as the gentiles do". There is no Greek word in the N.T. for *authority.*

It is hard for one to see the leaders of the saints as what they are because of looking at them through the institution made out of the boey of Christ today. In the 1st. century they had two roles. One was to lead by their godly lives and the other was to watch and be ready (apt) to teach those who needed teaching at the time. This is not so much group teaching since all don't have the same needs at the same time. The elders have only one weapon and that is the sword of truth. They have no authority outside of using that weapon. Please read Acts 20:28-30, for when and where digression would start.

Heb. 13:17, "Obey them who have the rule over you and be submissive. This must be reconsiled by the limits Jesus placed in Matt. 20 and 23.

The Greek language *obey* in Heb. 13:17 is not the same in Matt. 8:27 where the wind obeyed. The word for "obey in Heb. 12:17 is translated 23 times "persuade", 10 times "trust" and one time "agree". Only in Heb. 13:17 does it refer to obedience to another person (see Acts 5:36-37. Rom. 2"8, Gal. 3:1, James 3:3. Why do you reckon it is translated *obey* in Heb. 13:17? Yo figure. As you figure remember what and why King James had the word *ekklesia* translated *church*. And yes, this started before King James but he wanted it left in.

Then 1 Tim. 3:1-2: Again K.J., "This is a faithful saing. If a man desires the office of a Bishop he desires a good work.." The word office does not appear in the Greek. It was added, according to Greek scholars.

Next 1 Tim. 5:17. Question people ask, "How can one rule without authority. NIV really messes this up as it paraphases instead of translating. This is the most misused word in *church* today...a close second to *baptism*.

The elders (old people) are described as laboring and teaching the message. Again, according to Greek scholars..the wor translated in the place *rule* is proistHmi which means to stand in front of. See Vine's definition: PROISTEMI literally, to stand before hence to lead, attend to, indicating care and diligence." That word is translated *maintain* in Titus 1:3. "Maintain good works."

Enough is enough!

Nelta

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

Answers

"3 years of Greek and call me in the morning."

Michael.....you slay me.

BTW....Vine's is a great tool.....in the hands of someone who already knows Greek.

It's a dangerous tool in the hands of somone who even struggles with the English language.

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

D.Lee....

Temper my remarks with Michael's where he pointed out that "Vine's is not the end all a discussion on Greek."

For the most part....and most of the time.....Vine's is very helpful and I recommend it to my folks.

But understand this about Greek. All Vine's does is give the vocabulary meaning to a word.

Michael is more of a Greek scholar than I am....I took Greek....but studied Hebrew longer.....but I think he will agree with me.

Vine's does not fully take into account what "tenses" do to meaning.

The placing of one little vowel stem in a different spot can be the difference between night and day.

So....in addition to Vines......read some good commentaries of writers who strive to bring out the meaning of the Greek.

And don't sell yourself short on the ability to take Greek. There are a number of our colleges who now offer the ability for you to take Greek at home.

Again....my remarks need to be tempered with what Michael said.

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2000

Now I understand the problem! And this whole time I thought that you were really liberal Nelta. The problem is your tools. Vine's is by now way shape and form the end-all of discussion on the topic of Greek word definitions. We need you to read people like Metzger and Bauer and Arndt (even Thayer) and Louw and Nida.

Your theology is messed up because of your reliance on poor tools. Take 3 years in Greek and call me in the morning.

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

Michael,

Any of those you mentioned online? If so where can I find them?

Thanks,

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

"There is no Greek word in the N.T. for *authority.*"

Well, let's not jump away from Vine's too quickly. Nelta, if you are using Vine's as your source, then you might want to look up the word "authority" in Vine's. If you do, you will see that Vine's lists four noun forms and three verb forms that should be translated as various forms of "authority".

Kinda knocks your argument into a cocked hat, doesn't it?

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

Sorry D. Lee...only old fashioned hard-back book form available as far as I know. But I hope I am wrong I would love to find it online. I do know that Logos ahs some of those in its software packages but I don't know which ones.

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

In that case Danny, that leaves me in a precarious situation!! I have no knowledge of Greek, and English was my worst subject. Been out of school for awhile too.

Maybe this should be another thread, but help me out here...how is a person like me (lay-person) without knowledge of Greek to really understand God's word as He wants me to? I too use Vines and Strongs. Short of taking a class in Greek as Michael suggests, what is a person to do? I would say the overwhelming number of Christians do not have a background in Greek.

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

I recently was asked by a friend if we knew anyone who would be interested in study of the Hebrew language over the internet. The man who made the offer is a scholar..... His web site is at:

http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/ Contact him by email..... and tell him I sent you!

Teresa

Teresa

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

It is my intention in this post to examine in some detail several passages of scripture that contain words that would help us to reflect accurately concerning some of the things that Nelta would have us to believe about the existence of authority in the scriptures and the authority of elders in the church. I do not now nor will I ever apologize for the Length of this post. If you have ever tried to untangle a group of ropes or twisted wire or electrical cords that have been tied into seemingly impossible knots you know that it takes far less time and effort for a person to entangle and tie the knots than to untangle them.

I will also not apologize if I am accused of being unloving in my efforts to correct her egregious errors that she has sarcastically and arrogantly expressed in this forum. This is being written with love in my heart for the Lord Jesus Christ, His eternal word, and the precious souls that he seeks to save through the gospel, including our sarcastic friend, Nelta.

Now the New Testament is much easier to understand than the almost innumerable volumes that have been written about it. In fact, it seems that the very nature of man is to constantly rationalize the corners and sharp edges off the rugged bare word of God. His intent is to mold and shape it so that it fits into what he perceives to be the perfectly smooth and round hole of his reason, and sense of what is fair, just, right, and workable. Many have thus, as Peter has warned, wrested the scriptures to their own destruction.

Nelta has developed a consistent pattern in this forum of challenging all authority. In much the same fashion that Satan ask our mother, Eve, hath God said? Nelta once asked in this forum, Just how inspired are the scriptures? Then on one occasion she defied the authority of the man over the woman in 1 Corinthians 11:3 by a completely false assertion that the Greek term kaphale does not mean head in the sense of chief but rather means source as origin. The fact that absolutely NO reputable Greek Lexicon so defines the word did not cause her to even question her view. You see, she does not like the fact that the scriptures say that the head of the woman is the man and she considers this view to be completely incompatible with her modern day feminist sense of what is fair and reasonable. She has also demonstrated an extreme prejudice against men through her recent false accusations against Brother Danny and her statements that men usually do not take the writing of women seriously". One with such prejudice against men is not likely to appreciate the fact that God has determined that men would serve as overseers in the church and has excluded women from serving in this post of oversight. She cannot find any way to twist the scriptures in order to allow for women to become elders.

Therefore she has now attempted the next best thing, which is to deny and twist the plain teaching of scripture so as to take away all authority from them so that the women can have an equal voice in leading and directing the church!

This rebellion is much the same as the gainsaying of Korah which Jude accused false teachers in his day of following. For these reasons I now ask you to give attention to this examination of the passages which she has sought to pervert and twist to her own destruction in her clear rebellion against the elders whom the Holy Spirit has made overseers in the church. (Acts 20:28). This rebellion against God will not go unpunished nor will the LIES and false accusations against her Brothers in this forum and her extreme prejudice against men. We have dealt with her false accusations against Brother Danny and her extreme prejudice against men. Therefore we must now deal with her continuing efforts to deceive the weak and ignorant by perverting the word of God with the intent of challenging the authority of those whom the Holy Spirit has made overseers in the Church of Christ.

I will now compare three arguments or statements made by Sister Nelta with expositions of a few of the passages that she claims supports the things she would like for us to believe. First of all, Nelta wants us to believe that her reference to Matthew 20 is proof that no one in the kingdom has any authority over others. Her words were Jesus said in Matt. There would not be people exercising authority over others in His kingdom "as the gentiles do". Second, she also wants us to believe that there are no Greek words in the New Testament for authority. Her words again were, There is no Greek word in the N.T. for *authority.*. Third, based on these two erroneous premises, she draws the outlandish conclusion that we MUST reconcile the words of the inspired writer of Hebrews 13:17 (Whom I believe to be Paul) with HER understanding of the limits that Jesus placed in Matthew 20: 20-28 and Matthew 23:1-12. (Notice that I have taken the time to locate for her the exact passages that she could not remember and would not take the time in her argument to find and thus was unable to give the specific reference. I can only imagine that she was more concerned with brevity than accuracy.) I quote her words again, Heb. 13:17, "Obey them who have the rule over you and be submissive. This must be reconsiled by the limits Jesus placed in Matt. 20 and 23.

With these statements of Sister Nelta in mind let us examine the scriptures that she claims to support her view that 1.) There is no Greek word for authority in the New Testament; 2.) That there would be NO ONE in the kingdom of God to exercise authority over others. 3.) That Hebrews 13:17 must be reconciled with the limits Jesus placed in Matthew 20:20-28.

(Please notice just here that Nelta does not tell us exactly what Jesus placed these so-called limits upon? She knew that we would understand, but she did not want to say, that -according to her view- he placed these limits on AUTHORITY. But she claims that there is no Greek word for AUTHORITY in the New Testament. Which would mean that there is no AUTHORITY to be found in the New Testament. How then could Jesus be found, in the New Testament, placing limits on something that is not even mentioned the New Testament?) We will see, however, that the following passage, which is the one that Nelta referred us to, uses one of several GREEK words for Authority. We shall also see that this non-existent word is used in a context that places absolutely no limits whatsoever on the exercising of Authority in the Kingdom. Rather Jesus presents us with a contrast of the differences between the Kingdoms of this world and the Kingdom of God as seen in the basic reason for which and the manner in which they exercise authority. We shall see that Christ is not here condemning the use of authority. Rather he is forbidding the worldly, selfish, abuse of authority. For little can be accomplished without the exercise of some form of authority among men. All who know anything about leadership know that authority must be exercised. Whether it is the authority that comes from the force of strong character, evidenced in what the military often calls "command presence", which naturally compels others to follow. Or those who lack such character and must resort to the exercise of authority either by brute force or lies and deception to make others reluctantly follow them. Regardless of how it is exercised it is impossible to have any cooperative endeavor without it. Our Lord made it clear that authority would be exercised in the same way and for the same reasons that He exercised it. Read the passage below for yourself.

Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping [him], and desiring a certain thing of him. And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father. And when the ten heard [it], they were moved with indignation against the two brethren. But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Matthew 20: 20-28).

Notice that Jesus did not say that there would not be any chief among us without authority. He simply showed that those who would be chief would not have others serving them but rather would become Chief or ascends to such a position of authority in the process of and in order to be of service to others. He gave himself as the example saying,  Even as (meaning in the same way) the son of man came not to be minister unto but to minister, and give his life a ransom for many If he meant that there would be no one with authority over others in His Kingdom then He would not be a good example because we are told that Jesus spoke as one having authority and not as the scribes. Jesus also made it clear, all authority hath been given to me in heaven and on earth Matthew 28:19, 20. In fact he gave the apostles authority and set them on thrones judging the tribes of Israel. He had authority and he exercised it but the difference is that he exercised it through persuasion and for the purpose of serving our great need of eternal salvation. He did not come as a worldly King would come and gather servants to carry him about, cook his food, wash his feet and tend to his every need and mindlessly, and reluctantly obey him. He was a king, using his authority as the Son of God to redeem us from our sins and his love compels us to obey Him and his words persuades us to submit to him. He is referred to as the Chief Shepherd and the lesser shepherds under him are to exercise authority in the same manner and for the same purpose under the guidance of the chief shepherd in service of those souls He died to save. The authority of the lesser shepherds resides not within themselves but rather in the Chief Shepherd. He directs His subjects through the Apostles doctrine in the New Testament and the Elders are to teach us the apostles doctrine and lead us to follow that teaching in our worship and work.

Notice also that Jesus, in these passages, uses a Greek word for authority which our sister Nelta would have us to believe does not even exist. But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. The Greek word that Jesus uses here is the term katexousiazo which is defined as to exercise authority, wield power. It is derived from The Greek term exousiazo which means, To have power or authority, use power. 1.) To be master of any one, exercise authority over one; to be master of the body; to have full and entire authority over the body; to hold the body subject to one's will; to be brought under the power of anyone.

This word exousiazo is derived from the Greek word exousia meaning: power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases; 1.) Leave or permission; 2) physical and mental power; the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises; 3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege); 4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed); 4) universally; authority over mankind; specifically; the power of judicial decisions; of authority to manage domestic affairs; metonymically; a thing subject to authority or rule; jurisdiction; one who possesses authority; a ruler, a human magistrate; the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates; a sign of the husband's authority over his wife; the veil with which propriety required a women to cover herself; the sign of regal authority, a crown.

Therefore we can readily see that Neltas contention that there is no Greek word for Authority in the New Testament is proven to be a complete fabrication. If she had only read the passage that she quoted she would have seen the word authority there. And if she was competent enough in the Greek language she could have looked up the Greek word. If she had read several translations she could have learned that it is translated in all reputable translations with the English word authority if she had studied before she wrote she would not have mistakenly told us that there is NO GREEK WORD FOR AUTHORITY in the New Testament! But then she would have to abandon the idea that there is no one in the Kingdom of God that exercises authority over others.

If she had taken the time to follow the use of this Greek term exousia she would have found that the apostles not only possessed but they also exercised authority. Read the following passage from 2 Corinthians 10:5-12.

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he [is] Christ's, even so [are] we Christ's.

For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed: That I may not seem as if I would terrify you by letters. For [his] letters, say they, [are] weighty and powerful; but [his] bodily presence [is] weak, and [his] speech contemptible. Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such [will we be] also in deed when we are present. For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. But we will not boast of things without [our] measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you. ( 2 Corinthians 10:5-13).

Here Paul said that he should boast somewhat more about our authority which he says,  the Lord hath given to us for EDIFICATION, and not for YOUR DESTRUCTION. You see the authority was there for a different purpose than its purpose among the worldly kingdoms and Paul exercised it in such a way that he was in danger of not boasting enough about it. Which shows that Christ meant for CERTAIN ONES in the Church to have authority for the edification and service of others and that it is to be exercised through persuasion until discipline, as a last resort, is necessary for the edification and protection of the body. Be all of this as it may, no one can doubt that Paul and the other apostles had authority in the church. The word that he uses here for authority is exousia which is the same word that Jesus used in Matthew 20:20-28.

So Neltas contention that Jesus taught that no one in the kingdom would have authority over others is clearly false. Paul had authority and he claimed that the Lord had given it to him. Now why would the Lord give authority to anyone in the kingdom if he intended to teach in Matthew 20:20-28 that no one would have authority over others in the kingdom as Nelta wants us to believe.

With this information from 2 Corinthians still fresh in our minds it would be wise for us to look at a record that we have in the book of Acts. It is an account that gives us a picture of the Apostles and the ELDERS of the church in Jerusalem actually exercising their authority in the church. We can see that their authority was recognized and that they exercised it in accordance with the principles of Christ in Matthew 20:20-28. That is, they exercised it under the guidance of the Holy Spirit for the purpose serving the church and in a manner that used their recognized authority through the wisdom of persuasion. We see them appealing to the scriptures and the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit that confirmed the words of Paul and Barnabus so that the facts in this matter could be accurately established in the presence of the whole church. They then made a decision; it was expressed by James, written in a letter and sent to the church in Antioch and was the duty of the church to obey.

There is much to cover in this passage but I site it to show that it is impossible for anyone to read this and draw the conclusion that the elders do not have any authority. Certainly no reasonable person could read this passage and conclude that no one could exercise authority over others in the kingdom. I commend it to your reading without further comment.

And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, [and said], except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and [of] the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: [Which] when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation. And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed [them]. And after they had tarried [there] a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles. Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still. Acts 15:1-34

Now let us consider another passage wherein we see authority being used in the New Testament. Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have [free] course, and be glorified, even as [it is] with you: And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith. But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep [you] from evil. And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread. But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing. And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all.

Here we have the Apostle Paul alluding to his AUTHORITY which he received from the Lord in his expression of confidence that these brethren would do as he had commanded them. Notice his words, And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. One without authority does not command anyone nor does he have even the slightest reason to believe that anyone would obey his command should he issue one. In this verse Paul is doing both! I can just hear those who teach no one in the kingdom would exercise authority over others saying Paul does not have any authority to give commands. He may call us all in and we can have a congregational dialog and then vote on the matter but he has no such right. However, if they did such a thing and the vote was cast requiring a brother to be withdrawn from then each individual would have to submit to the authority being exercised by the entire congregation. This would be the entire church doing in concert the very thing that Nelta wants us to believe no one would do in the kingdom. This would be the entire church exercising authority over others in the kingdom! The truth must be obvious by now that it is impossible to escape authority. It is naturally inherent in any cooperative action whether it comes in the form of strong, wise individuals in positions of authority or the entire body combined as an individual in the same position, authority will be exercised! Our Lord simply changed the purpose and the manner in which it would be exercised in the kingdom but he surely did not prohibit or eliminate its existence! God is not the author of confusion. (1Cor.14: 33). The church is a BODY and it has a head that controls its actions throughout.  And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the Church. (Col. 1:18) He exercises His divine authority through the Holy Spirit who exercises it through the Apostles who continue to this day to exercise it through the word of God which is the very word that has taught us to submit to the elders (Heb. 13:17) who exercise the very authority of Christ when they lead us to continue steadfastly in the apostles doctrine which is in fact the very doctrine of Christ our Lord! Therefore, those who rebel against men who are qualified according to 1 Timothy 3: 1-7 and Titus 1:5-11 to be overseers in the church are actually in rebellion against our Lord Jesus Christ! That, brethren, is the truth and a warning! God will not fail to punish severely those who rebel against His anointed! Just witness what happen to those who rebelled against Moses and Aaron. Look at what happened to Ananias and Saphira who in the act of lying to the apostles were found, in fact, to have been lying instead to the Holy Spirit. They both fell DEAD at the apostles feet. (Acts 5: 1-4). Beware of this rebellious spirit! Beware!

Now I must stop here though there is much more to discuss about this subject. I only want to remind you that Nelta was right about one thing. She said, Enough is enough. I agree. We have seen enough of this rebellion against the God given authority of the overseers of the church. We have seen enough of accusations without evidence to sustain them. We have seen enough of this extreme feminist prejudice against men just because of their gender. We have seen enough of this shallow sophistry that affirms that the word of God teaches something without any evidence from the word of God that such is true. We have seen enough of this refusal to engage in meaningful dialog with those who would sincerely desire to question our comments. For are we not told to,  be ready ALWAYS to give an answer to ANY man that asketh thee a REASON for the hope that is in us?

Let us study diligently, discuss matters sincerely, and let the Word of God be our ONLY rule of faith and practice. Let us endeavor to approach these subjects with a desire to be lead by the Holy Spirit through the teaching of the word of God. These matters are high and holy in that we are talking about GODS WILL. This is not the same as discussing politics or matters of opinion. We are discussing matters of faith. Let us ever contend for the ONE faith that we have from the ONE God that is intended to make us ONE people in Christ our LORD. Yes, Nelta, Enough false doctrine, enough false accusations, and enough feminist SEXISM that condemns a persons views and attitudes solely on the basis of the fact that he is a man! Enough!

I pray that we can learn the truth and express it in this forum so that others are not confused by those who do are not even sure that the scriptures are inspired.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

Brother Saffold,

Excellent exposition of those passages. I believe you hit the nail on the head when you mention Nelta's prejudice against men. She had previously mentioned that she considered most here to be "respectors of persons" as we defended a wronged Brother. If I have to be make a mistake in my life, I'd much rather it be in being a "respector or persons" rather than a "hater of men".

-- Anonymous, January 24, 2000

Brother Wisniewski:

Thank you for your kind words concerning the scriptural expositions. It is always gratifying to have someone to not only take the time to read what you have worked hard to write but even more so when they appreciate the work. I truly appreciate your taking the time to notice.

I agree with you that Nelta has demonstrated an extreme prejudice against men in this forum while at the same time falsely condemning others of being respecter of persons. There is absolutely no justification for that accusation either. We should not be respecters of persons and I am happy to say that I do not know of anyone writing in this forum that has demonstrated such an attitude toward others. You are also correct in your estimation that being a hater of men is in many respects worst than being respecters of persons. I am certain that you agree that both are sinful and contemptible to God our father.

Thank you again for your kindness toward me in your words concerning what I have written in this thread. I sincerely appreciate the fellowship that we have in this forum in the furtherance of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, January 24, 2000