Moderator's note: This thread is a spin-off from the thread entitled "Eldership Business Meetings"

Nelta, your little role playing was amusing to a point. But, coming from a Minister who is spear heading a building program and Capital Stewardship Campaign with the Elders- I do not find it amusing. The way you put it- stewardship campaigns are wrong... I disagree. In fact they help to teach people to tithe and give more into the kingdom. So instead of spending money at Walmart on CD's they can help the kingdom of God grow with their monies... this is very biblical! Also, as the good brother Danny pointed out- the elder "ship" is a biblical concept in fact more biblical than congregational voting or boards. If you think not then prove it! Furthermore, I feel your situation above hints a negative feeling toward the BIBLICAL role of Elders. Do you disregard what the bible teaches? Are you resentful for some reason? I fully support any Eldership wanting to teach their congregation about stewardship and I further agree to build LARGE HUGE buildings. One thing that is funny is that although you may voice your OPINION on this board, the reality is that very few feel the same. In fact, the reality is that the Lord is behind many building projects and stewardship campaigns... in fact He has tremendously blessed ours. Is God pleased with us? I say yes, for He has shown us in many ways.

AKelley
wwjdkelley@hotmail.com

************************

From Nelta:

<< Nelta, your little role playing was amusing to a point. But, coming from a Minister who is spear heading a building program and Capital Stewardship Campaign with the Elders- I do not find it amusing.>>

Actually, the role playing set forth a REAL problem in the kingdom today.

The way you put it- stewardship campaigns are wrong... I disagree.>>

Of course, you have a right to your opinion, as do I. And yes, I do believe they are wrong.

In fact they help to teach people to tithe >>

Excuse me? Tithe? Is that not taken out of context (out of the O.T.?) I don't find where people under the law of Christ are told to tithe, or even to give into a common treasury.

and give more into the kingdom. So instead of spending money at Walmart on CD's they can help the kingdom of God grow with their monies... this is very biblical! >>

I am interested in knowing where you got that concept.

If you think not then prove it!>>

I believe they are in the same class.

Furthermore, I feel your situation above hints a negative feeling toward the BIBLICAL role of Elders.>>

Any time something is disagreed with it becomes *negative* in the minds of the disagree (er). Lets stick to the facts, biblical facts that is.

Do you disregard what the bible teaches?>>

Not at all.

Are you resentful for some reason?>>

When someone goes against the flow he/she is always accused of being resentful or bitter. May it never be. Again, I believe we must shine the light of truth on our practices today or throw the Bible in the trash. It is either our guide (in principles) or it is worthless. I vote for it being the light of truth, inspired by God.

I fully support any Eldership wanting to teach their congregation about stewardship and I further agree to build LARGE HUGE buildings.>>

Well, the fact that you support that (the Catholic also support their Pope) ISTM has no bearing on the case. Is it right, or has it been added by tradition since the death of the apostles?

One thing that is funny is that although you may voice your OPINION on this board, the reality is that very few feel the same.>>

I don't get your point. If people on the board don't want to hear my opinion they will be able to just not open the message because I will put nb on all my subjects.

In fact, the reality is that the Lord is behind many building projects and stewardship campaigns... in fact He has tremendously blessed ours.>>

The Catholics say the same thing. So do all the prosparity preacher on T.V. ISTM we cannot go by how big we get or anything else in deciding whether God has blessed us or not. It all hinges on what He gives as direction. And think about this: It is nowhere mentioned or hinted at in the N.T. about the things you condone in your post. That has all come about from tradition.

Is God pleased with us? I say yes, for He has shown us in many ways.>>

The only way we can know is if it fits His plan.

***********************************

From AKelley:

Nelta, as far as tithing goes, you know very well that the law of tithing has never been done away with. We are not just NT Christians but OT as well. For that is the scriptures that Paul considered "all scripture is God breathed" out of II Timothy 3:16 and is "usful for teaching, rebuking and training in righteousness." If indeed the all of the old law is gone then why does Jesus Himself that " I have come not to abolish the law but to fulfill it." Now, I cannot force tithing on people, because they have to experience it for themselves. God promises that if we "test" Him in tithes then we will be blessed... (Mal. 3)a promise for all to apply. I believe and personally know that the tithe is still in force. Why? Because I have tested God and found Him to be true to that promise! The tithe is very much still in operation today. Paul's teachings in the NT particulary in the Corinthian corespondance applies mainly to offerings that are above tithes, as in the case with the suffering Jerusalem church. Now, if encourage you to reread all the scriptures about money... God is the one who gives us wealth. With this said... if a person neglects tithing God will not bless in that area becasue they are robbing God. It is the Elder's and Minister's responsibility to teach this to the congregation. Many people from Church of Christ, backgrounds have often said that they never had been taught that the tithe is still a blessing for us as Christians. Sad. I fear in our rush to be NT Christians we have left out mass passages of OT that we very much need as Christians for our faith. Nelta we cannot throw out the OT.

Also, I at times feel sorry for you. The reason? It is often due to the mis application of scripture. Nowhere ever is there any evidence in the scriptures for a "noneldership" status. See, it flops the other way as well, you say there is no eldership in the scripture, but you cannot prove otherwise either. Plus, the fact you find the stewardship campaigns wrong show that you are missing out on the blessing of the Lord. There is much joy in giving and learning to give. Stewardship campaign do not drain people of money, in fact they increase money for the people and the church. As people give to the Lord and His Church, they inturn are blessed by God.It is a win win situation, no one loses!

Nelta, have you ever tried to tithe? If so has not God blessed you? If not then try it, God has promised to bless you beyond all measure. But do not take my word for it, try God. Very few places in the scripture does God say "Test ME" but when He does it is in regards to money. Try the Lord He is good, faithful and true.



-- Anonymous, January 15, 2000

Answers

D. Lee.....

Nate's statment was excellent.....let me repeat it......"I believe in tithing as a principle....not a law."

This is exactly how it should be.

I follow the hermeneutic of A. Campbell in the "Sermon on the Law" when he broken the theory of the "level Bible" and rightly declared the superiority of the N.T....and the only thing binding on the Christian.

To reject all O.T. law as binding can be the only logical conclusion of the verses in the N.T. that refer to the O.T. law as being "done away with." There is not one verse that says..."Everything....except tithing."

Also....your point about tithing being around before the law....would also apply to the Sabbath. Do you believe in Sabbath worship??

While these principles were in place before the law....the fact is....they became law.....and therefore part of that which was fulfilled.....done away with....and replaced.

Now....is the "principle" of the Sabbath still valid?? Absolutely.....in the modern lingo we would say...."All work and no play makes D. Lee....a dull girl." Our bodies and our spirits need rest.

The same is true for tithing....the principle of recognizing all we have as belonging to God is valid.....which is what the tithe represents.

As N.T. Christians.....we should not be happy with "just tithing." We should go beyond what is required.

You see.....slaves do what is required. As "sons"......we "get to." And, therefore, we seek to do more.

In my earlier days I preached tithing as required. I have since repented.

Best regards,

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

D. Lee....

Answers to your questions....one by one......

"Do I believe any of the O.T. is binding on the Christian?"

What I believe is unimportant. If langauge means anything....what does "nailed to the cross"......"tore down"....."new and better way"....et. al mean??? These are all various ways of describing what happened to the law. The law was a "mere shadow" as the writer of Hebrews says over and over...."but not the substance."

I mean.....if language means anything, how else do I understand this language??

As per "Capital Punisment".....again....it's a principle...i.e., "take a life...forfeit a life." And, in fact, it is a principle enjoined by the New Testament (see Romans 13).

As per the principle of the Sabbath being in place....before the law.....right off the top of my head.....look at these two Scriptures.....Genesis 2:1-2; and Exodus 16:21ff...(Note the Law did not come into being until Exodus 20).

Your reference to the "adultery.....lust" issue would be applicable is Jesus said...."You have heard it said of old....thou shalt tithe....but I say to you....." (You know He didn't.)

I'm proud to say....I don't tithe!!! In all honesty.....I don't sit down and think about it. But if we punched the numbers.....I'm sure it would be way more than 10%.

The N.T. principle for giving is found in I Cor. 16....."Give as He has prospered".....and give out of love.....not Law keeping.

Brother Kelley.....you are simply historically wrong about Campbell's purpose for the Sermon on the Law. He was not fighting covenental theology....but rather the concept of the level Bible...i.e., all the O.T. laws and regulations as still binding on the Christian.

The basic thesis of the Sermon...."anything not specifically enjoined in the N.T. cannot be made as binding upon the Christian." I believe that to be true....not because Campbell said it....but it is central to the concept of "New Covenant" as taught in the N.T.

Like I said....I use to preach tithing....until I repented.

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

Brother Kelley...

You don't really believe your last statement do you..."if they are not faithful in giving they will not be faithful in other areas??"

I know plenty of people who probably do not/are not tithing.....and yet they serve the Lord in many other wonderful ways in the church.

On the other hand....I know people who give their tithe every week......AND THAT'S IT!!!! You never see them lift a finger to help.....teach a class....clean up....do anything!!!

That statement proved my point.....you are making tithing a test of someone's faithfulness.

Brother.....that is lawkeeping....condemned by not only brother Campbell.....but the whole of the N.T.

In fact, in was the heresy condemned by Paul in the book of Galatians.

If you want to suggest tithing is a good thing to do.....fine.

But I think it would be wise to think twice about judging the level of people's faith by whether or not they tithed.

I knew if we kept going long enough....that statement would come out.

"We are saved by faith....apart....from works of the Law."

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2000

Brother Kelley.....

I think we are close enough.....to drop it.

I could not agree with you more fully.....a church that will not support itself financially....does not deserve to exist.

Anyway.....Lord bless you.

BTW.....I'm not in Florida anymore....but man....are you sure we weren't at the same church?? What you describe sounds awful familiar. :o)

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2000

Nate....

You are right....that is exactly what I was doing.

Mission works are mission works, and in their beginning.....they must seek support.

However, since my doctorate is in missiology....let me say this.....every church....whether here or elsewhere.....at sometime must become self sufficient and must itself become missionary supporting. That is the N.T. way.....and evidence of a healthy church.

Many do not, however, because of missionaries who get their "power" and money raising ability from keeping missions churches and people dependant upon them.

The true missionary teaches churches to be "indigenous"....i.e., self supporting and self propogating.

Darrell.....you know full well that long established churches in Jamaica could be self supporting....but are not challenged to do so. There is power in keeping them "dependant."

You have bought the propaganda. If you want the "research" to back up what I'm saying....I'll be glad to send you a copy of my doctoral dissertation that shows the income level of Jamaicans and that they do have the ability to self supporting.

You see....I get my "kicks" out of developing indigenous churches and missions. Others get their out of keeping them dependant on American support. It makes them feel "needed".....and thus keeps their source of income in tact.

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2000

A, Here is your post and my comments:

AKelley (wwjdkelley@hotmail.com) responded to a message you left in the The Christian Church bboard:

Subject: Response to Eldership Business Meeting - nb

Nelta, as far as tithing goes, you know very well that the law of tithing has never been done away with.

No, I do not know that and frankly other than certain denominations I have never heard that as a belief especially in the CoC which is what I am most acquainted with.

We are not just NT Christians but OT as well.>>

Are saying we were Christians before Christ died on the cross?

For that is the scriptures that Paul considered "all scripture is God breathed" out of II Timothy 3:16 and is "usful for teaching, rebuking and training in righteousness." If indeed the all of the old law is gone then why does Jesus Himself that " I have come not to abolish the law but to fulfill it." >>

The law was neve abolished but it was fulfilled when Christ came and died.

Now, I cannot force tithing on people, because they have to experience it for themselves. God promises that if we "test" Him in tithes then we will be blessed... (Mal. 3)a promise for all to apply.>>

That was a promise for those under the Lev. priesthood time. The tithes were for the upkeep of what was necessary under that law. We know longer have such a Priesthood as they did.

I believe and personally know that the tithe is still in force. Why? Because I have tested God and found Him to be true to that promise!

We cannot go by our feelings. We just must go by scripture. There is a vast difference in the way God dealt with those in Hi physical nation and the way He deals with those now in His spiritual nation...His kingdom.

The tithe is very much still in operation today. Paul's teachings in the NT particulary in the Corinthian corespondance applies mainly to offerings that are above tithes, as in the case with the suffering Jerusalem church.>>

I don't see in this scripture anything about tithes. The people were simply getting their donation together (which BTW they kept at home until Paul arrived) for the poor saints in Jerusalem.

Now, if encourage you to reread all the scriptures about money... God is the one who gives us wealth. With this said... if a person neglects tithing God will not bless in that area becasue they are robbing God. >>

Sorry, you are again taking the O.T. to prove the N.T. Instead of tithing all our money belongs to God and it should be used as we give our bodies as living sacrifices to Him. We are using His blessings when we take care of our families and the poor. etc.

It is the Elder's and Minister's responsibility to teach this to the congregation.>>

How shall I put this. First of all we are all ministers. There is not a hint of A Minister in the N.T. We made that up. The elders are to teach those they are among and what they use in teaching is the sword of truth. They have no responsibility to teach anything else nor to guide the sheep in anything else.

Many people from Church of Christ, backgrounds have often said that they never had been taught that the tithe is still a blessing for us as Christians.>>

May I ask which group you are with? The reason those in the CoC do not teach the tithe is because it is not taught under the law of Christ. It was left behind at the cross.

Sad. I fear in our rush to be NT Christians we have left out mass passages of OT that we very much need as Christians for our faith. Nelta we cannot throw out the OT.>>

I agree! We can learn much by studying the O.T. For one thing we know the character of God from the reading of the Old. However, we can't bring over those rituals and practices that they were taught then.

Also, I at times feel sorry for you. The reason? It is often due to the mis application of scripture. Nowhere ever is there any evidence in the scriptures for a "noneldership" status.>>

Now we get to the crux of our discussion. Instead of our trying to find something is not in scripture we must find where it is IN there. We should look for what is right about something...right being what is told us by inspiration.

The inspiraried teaching of the Apostles was for simplicity. Nothing is said about (as I said before) a group of elders joining together and running something. Elders are definately for today. Because of tradition binding them together into a *ship* they are now doing something not told them. They were to teach those who needed teaching and were to live such a godly life that the sheep would desire to follow them. They now hire others to do the teaching they are suppose to be doing. (That is a different subject.)

See, it flops the other way as well, you say there is no eldership in the scripture, but you cannot prove otherwise either. >>

Please prove there IS eldership in the scriptures. Prove what you believe on the matter.

Plus, the fact you find the stewardship campaigns wrong show that you are missing out on the blessing of the Lord.>>

What I see is bigness, taking from the individuals the purpose God gave them. Personal responsibility. God was not interested in bigness. He is interested in the hearts of individuals. The stewazrdship campaigns are added to the purpose of God. We should be careful what we add to the word or plan of God.

There is much joy in giving and learning to give.

Right! I'm sure we all do that. We give to those who are need.

Stewardship campaign do not drain people of money, in fact they increase money for the people and the church. As people give to the Lord and His Church, they inturn are blessed by God.It is a win win situation, no one loses! >>

So says the prosperity (?) preachers on T.V.

Nelta, have you ever tried to tithe? >>

I have given much to the *church* until I found that a wrong concept and of course I give all the time. Tithing does not enter in.

If so has not God blessed you?

God blesses me everyday. Not because I go back to the O.T. for instruction but because He is my Father who loves me and I Him.

If not then try it, God has promised to bless you beyond all measure. But do not take my word for it, try God. Very few places in the scripture does God say "Test ME" but when He does it is in regards to money. Try the Lord He is good, faithful and true.>>

Again, that was for the physical nation of God who was preparing the way for Christ. Give....of course. We must never stop giving. We give because we love the Lord.



-- Anonymous, January 15, 2000

AKelley

"In fact they help to teach people to tithe and give more into the kingdom."

What do you mean by that statement? For the most part preachers have no idea what they are talking about when they say things like that. Does God need your money? (Psa 50:12 KJV) "If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof."

The greatest of Gods servants were nothings...(Heb 11:37 KJV) "They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;"

(Heb 11:38 KJV) "(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth."

The preacher that kicked me out of "his" church did so because I liked to talk about the Kingdom of God. One day he asked me how much property I owned. "None." I answered.

"Not much of a kingdom then is it." was his educated reply.

If you know about the kingdom of God then tell us/me.

Is it here? Is it there? Does it exist? God says it does. He says the throne of the Lord exists on this earth today.

(2 Sam 7:16 KJV) "And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."

(1 Ki 2:45 KJV) "And king Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD for ever."

(1 Ki 9:5 KJV) "Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel."

(1 Chr 28:5 KJV) "And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the KINGDOM OF THE LORD OVER ISRAEL."

(1 Chr 29:23 KJV) "Then Solomon sat on the THRONE OF THE LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him."

(Jer 33:17 KJV) "For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;"

The Kingdom of God must have a throne, a king, land, people...Where?

Look under your feet, for methinks thou treadest upon it.

What did Jesus say...(Mat 21:13 KJV) "And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves."

-- Anonymous, January 15, 2000

Mark, where in the world do you get your wild false assumptions that I do not believe in the Kingdom of God? Did I say this... certainly not. Often I have read your posts with a big question mark. This topic is on tithing and not the Kingdom of God, if you want to start another thread please do so and I will respond to that.

Nelta, your false theology that we no longer need to tithe is just that. By your own admission you "rob God' by not tithing. I pray that you are not teaching others that too. I asked you to prove that the old law (from scripture) no longer applies. But, you have not... the reason... it does. Yes, there are cultural circumstances that only applied to the jews... but, tithing is not one of them. In fact, it is fulfilled through the NT to apply to giving beyond the tithe too. For example... adultry was enhanced by Christ to go further into the heart rather than external... but Jesus did not say nor the rest of the New Testament say that that law is not valid today. Why do we throw out some and keep others? By your own theory- if adultry is OT and OT is no longer binding on Christians then I can commit adultry. To go further Jesus was under the OT when he made his statement about adultry so what he said is not valid. But, rather I say, (backed by scripture) that the law IS in effect today and binding upon Christians. And as for my "feelings"- my experience is based on fact not fiction. When I have tithed God has blessed... period. That is not feeling but reality. Perhaps I cannot get some to understand and that is due to immaturity in that person.

Also, I was raised in the Christian Church (independant) all my life and I am an alumni from Florida Christian College and a graduate from Johnson Bible College... (and upper graduate work from Johnson as well). So I speak as someone who knows very well about what the "COC" teaches. And I found that a sad reality exist that some reject the law, but even though we are saved by grace... we still need the law. Paul said in Gal. 3:21, "Is the Law, therfore opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not!" (NIV). See, this whole discussion has become a lesson in dispensationalism. But, in reality no where in scripture is the law abolished... but fulfilled... what is this? Fulfillment is completion or make complete in Christ. The law could never forgive sin only curve us from doing it. But, through Christ we can have freedom to be released from the bonds of sin to enjoy the law through grace.

-- Anonymous, January 16, 2000

Now I am confused...

I understand Christ came to fulfill the law, and that all scripture is useful for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness...

What about Acts 15? "...Pharisees stood up and said, 'The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses." After much discussion..."Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

Rom. 6:14: "For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace."

Rom. 7:4-6: "So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

Gal. 3:10: "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not contunue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

Gal. 3:24: "So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."

I do not disagree with you Brother Kelley about the tithe being relevant for today. Wasn't tithing done before the "Moasic Law" considering that both Abraham in Genesis 14:20, and Jacob in Gen. 28:22 tithed a tenth. Where did they get this idea of a tenth, or even the idea of tithing for that matter. It seems to me that tithing was going on before the "written code" was instituted. Is it not then a principle for all of God's people for all time?

-- Anonymous, January 16, 2000

D. Lee Muse,

Amen! I was beginning to wonder how I was going to keep the Sabboth and marry my my brother's widow. I concur with with you. (Ack! Will wonders never cease?)

Anthony, I believe in the "Principle of tithing" as a good biblical principle not as "Law."

In Him,

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

Danny I agree to a point, but we as Christians are engrafted onto the vine, but we must never look at our status in grace to ignore the OT. Alexander Campbell in the sermon on the law, never suggested that we throw out our OT. In fact he was trying to throw out "covenant theology". This is a herneneutics issue that will always rage on. I do not totally agree with A. Campbell as I do not totally agree with you. Often, we in the Restoration movement blindly chase after what our "fathers" of the movement thought rather than thinking for ourselves. In my humble opinion perhaps Mr. Campbell was on the right tract as he sought to show that the constitutional continuity is no longer in effect upon Christians, such as the dietary laws. But, he never sought in the Sermon on the Law to bring an end to the historical and theological continuity of the OT and NT.

Yes, we must get our faith and practice from the NT, but also we need the OT for our faith and practice as well. There are promises and prophecies that still apply to the Christian. But, to totally say I do not have to tithe for it is OT... is silly. We do need to tithe. Why? Because God stated a promise that does not apply only to the Jews but to all people who are His... it is universal. How do I know this, well as I stated earlier I found out through experience. I am so bold about it that I have repeatedly offered anyone my pay check for onee week in my church, if someone can prove me wrong that God will not bless you if you tithe. No one has ever taken me up on the offer. Perhaps, they may be afraid to or maybe just maybe they found out that God is faithful to His everlasting promise. You are right that the money issue is enhanced in the NT to teach us that it all belongs to God anyway, but tithing is the foundational place to start, then we can give above and beyond.

Personally I would like to know who on this thread is not afraid to say that they tithe every week 10% of their gross income? I know it is not any of my buisness, but I will reveal that I do it faithfully every week and I have found that God honors that and blesses me!

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

I have to agree with Danny on this one. New Testament Christians do not have to tithe IAW the Mosaic laws. However....that does not mean that Christians do not give!

I think we in church circles have a tendency to argue apples and oranges, either/or, instead of seeing its more. Christians do not "tithe," it is true. Ten percent of the Christian's income, etc, does not belong to God. ALL OF IT DOES. We do not give a percentage because it is "required" -- we give out of our devotion to God and to do his work. We are blessed by God not because we "tithe," but because we give to Him, period.

My problem with "tithing" is that the "prosperity preaching" which is saturating America uses this concept as a manipulation tool. Yes, God does bless when we give. However -- our motivation to give is simply to give, not to get anything back. To give money, etc to God in the hope of receiving monitary or material gain is totally unbiblical. No Christian church should preach tithing. Stewardship, yes. But not tithing. We as Christian give back to God from the goodness He gives us out of gratitude for His work in us. But it is not a "requirement", nor is it a "formula" to increase our wealth.

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

*GASP!*

"It's the big one Elizabeth!"

"Quick, somebody dial 9-1-1!!!"

I've been quoted by Danny! I'm not sure whether or not this is good for my reputation. :-D

Actually, I want to thank Danny to elloquently putting my thoughts into words... that goes for Dr. Jon too!

Anthony, Just because your "Experience" says that God honors His promise and blesses you for your giving to Him.... does not make this "Law." What of the person He blesses for giving 9.5%? Or 20%? Our experience does not the Law make.

In Him,

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

Danny,

Help me to understand...Do you believe that NONE of the Old Testament is binding upon a Christian? I have been taught that it is the "Written code", or "Mosaic Law" that is not binding upon a Christian. Also that there are Universal principles given before the law that we do today follow.

Another example is capital punishment instituted before the law...Genesis 9:5 "...And from each man, too I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man." I have been taught too that this is an example of a universal principle/law, since it was given before The Law - and is valid for all of God's people for all time.

You wrote: "Also....your point about tithing being around before the law....would also apply to the Sabbath. Do you believe in Sabbath worship??"

No I do not believe in Sabbath worship - but I had thought that it was instituted under the Law of Moses. Could you throw some scriptures my way for this one?

I have heard it said that the N.T. is a step above so-to-speak in that more is expected of Christians. Here is one example given for this...

O.T. - Do not commit adultery N.T. - Lust equals adultery

Therefore it stands to reason that God would expect at least the same that those in the O. T. gave, but we should go beyond. You seem to allude to this when you say: "As N.T. Christians.....we should not be happy with "just tithing." We should go beyond what is required."

I ask you, what is required?

Jon, you say: "Ten percent of the Christian's income, etc, does not belong to God. ALL OF IT DOES." Didn't ALL of what God's people in the O.T. posses belong to Him also?

Brother Kelley, my husband and I too tithe 10% each week.

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

I think Dr.Jon got what I said wrong. I never said that all of our money does not belong to the Lord but ten percent. What I said and meant that I feel (under biblical authority) that a Christian must give it all, but we are still bound to the tithe. This is not the teaching of health and wealth that I am proclaiming, but that of good stewardship. God is not honored by our dollar in the offering plate... if money holds us up from a right relationship then He wants it all, as with the case with the rich young ruler.

Christian CHurches do teach tithing, number one because I teach it in every church I serve, but many of churches do believe in it, Why? Because it still is valid.

Dee, thank you for answering my question. I pray that the ord will continue to bless you and your family.

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

To all:

I wasn't clear.

a. I wasn't trying to say that the brother was teaching prosperity. I was trying to say that *I* don't like the term tithing because of the association that it has with the prosperity. I am sorry for that confusion.

b. I wasn't saying that all that the Israelites had did not belong to God. My point was that the legal requirement to give ten percent did belong to them, not us. We are to give for different reasons.

My point is that the "tithe" as in the OT should not be applied to believers. We actually have a "higher calling." 10 Percent is a reasonable estimate of what should be given. But IMO it should be called "stewardship" or "church support" or something else, anything but a tithe.

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

Danny,

Thank you...you have given me pause for more thought and STUDY!

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

Danny, you are wrong my brother to say I am historically wrong. Look at your self at the "Sermon on the Law." Constitutional theology is the authority or terms of covenant. Alexander Campbell sought to wipe out covenant theology or Dispensationalism. Therefore I am not wrong. Campbell recognized that God unfolded His purpose through the OT such as with the "moral law" of the ten commandments. But, A Campbell, said in essence that we are not to preach the OT to prepare for the New. This conclusion comes from the "essential difference between law and gospel". For the OT was a covenant of "works" for a "rule of life." He asked, "Is the law of Moses a rule of life to Christians?" He basicly answers "NO" none of it, and if we are to be consistant we need not pick and choose, but reject the OT. Campbell used the arguement of Englands rule (twice) over the colonies, is not binding to the US who freed themselves from Brittish rule. I would disagree with Campbell in the fact that we are not bound by the OT. We are for it shows and reveals Christ and aids to our understanding of the law of grace. Plus, we as Christians are blessed through the law.

I know that we are not saved through the observance of the Law. The law was never intended to save a soul only to make men better. But, we still need the law and we canot throw it out based on our grace as Christians. In fact much of what the OT promises have never passed away nor have they ceased. God is true and faithful.

As far as repenting... Danny I will never repent of preaching and teaching that the tithe does exist... for there is nothing to repent of. We are blessed if we at least tithe,why? Because God simply said so. Also, Yes we should give far more than the tithe, but if a person is not faithful to God in the area of finances then you will not be faithful in other areas.

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

Danny I am not going to argue with you about people's faithfulness, you are right to a point. I do not think I am being legalistic when say that a person who neglects in one area will or may not be faithful in another. In fact, it goes back to compromise. What do we compromise? All... some or none? You are 100% correct that what I said does not cover all situations. But, I ministered in florida for several years, and one area I saw many (including the elderly) is that they expect God to bless them when they give a dollar. If that is all they have... then God WILL bless them- for they are giving from their heart. But, many have that capacity to not only tithe but to bless the church beyond that, which they often do not do. In the church I served in Florida, we depended upon the "winter birds" to get support. We pleaded and begged and had such things as "supersunday" or even "all state day" to get them to give. No church should have to depend upon people who are not even members but just winter guest for support. The year round congregation should support its own church! But, they do not support, because they do not give. The excuse is that they will not support a church that does not worship the way they like or something like that. See, it effects and spills in other areas. The church in which I ministered was a church filled with demons, many of then sat in the pews every sunday. They bickered and complained and whined about how church used to be. They gossiped. slandered, and where malicous talkers. In fact, a fight once broke out in our foyer with an elderly couple and a guest to the church (a young doctor). They screamed and and raved, (we should have called the police). There was not any real ministry going... it was a very wild brood of vipers.

My point is this... often a lack of faithfulness on one area reveals itself in others. You may identify with this or you may not (being in florida), but when a person is not joyful about giving the tithe or above and beyond then other areas suffer. I had seen this first hand. I literally went to hell and back with my previous congregation and I pray to the Lord Most High that I will not go through that again, but it taught me this very point that I am contending for.

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2000

Danny, I am under the persuation that all florida churches are like in some regard, although I know I should not say so (it is not pc). I know this is not pc to say where I was, but I was at Okeechobee.

Thank you for the tought provoking talk. You indeed have challenged me to rethinhk things through. I do want to say that I have admired your style and I do think you are a good teacher of the scripture, as I have gathered from our discussions.

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2000

Just curious more than try to challenge, but on the statement "a church that cannot support itself does not deserve to exist":

What about a church that is planted in near a secular college campus in order to better reach "unchurched" college students? Such a church might not draw enough non-students to support the effort for a generation -- when enough graduates take jobs locally to support the effort. Of course, in some small college towns, that might never happen.

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2000

Mark,

You bring up a great point ... one I was about to make.,

Here in Indiana, PA, our Christian Student Fellowship is in the process of planning to start a New Testament congregation here in town. At present, there is no independant Christian Church / Church of Christ in town. One very liberal Disciples, and one very legalistic non-C of C.,

This new work will focus on the students at IUP ... and while the townsfolks will be invited to attend, we don't have a clue how many will, and where that will take us.,

Obviously it will be very difficult for the college students to support the new work with their $$$ as most don't have much in the way of $$$ to begin with.,

The Student Fellowship, and the new congregation, are being supported through missions giving, and that will continue to be the case for some time following. Just a fact of life in college ministry. Prayfully the new work will continue to grow till it can support itself in the future.,

I'm also reminded of congregations in the inner-city ... on the island of Jamaica ... and elsewhere.,

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2000

Anthony,

I could name a few (quite a few) congregations in Florida that are not like Okeechobee. You should know by now that every church (regardless of its location) has its own personality and making broad sweeping statements like that is simply unfair.

Regarding OT as applicable to today... sure some of it is applicable to us. Some promises have yet to be fulfilled... The priciples behind some of the law still apply. The societal morals taught from the law form the basis for many civilizations. However, have you had a chance to read the Book of Romans? Or Galatians? (Specifically 3:1-ff??)

Study the law for very long and you will hit on terms like "The letter of the Law" & "The spirit of the Law." I believe that God gave us the "Letter of the Law" through Moses to show us that there is NOTHING WE CAN DO to save ourselves... Then He showed us the "Spirit of the Law" through Jesus & sacrificed His son to show His love for us and save us.

If the "Letter of the Tithe" is still applicable then your logic would have us to believe that Sacrificing animals as per God's command is also still applicable. Which is it? Beside that, most scholars would say that 10% ain't enough... That God commanded more than the tithe... what of the harvest offering, and the other special offerings that happened thoughout the year and on the seventh year and on other special years? What of those?

Yes, the PRINCIPLE still appies, but the "LAW" does not. Do we discard everything in the OT just because it does not apply to us? No... the History contained in the OT shows us that God is faithful to His people even when they are not faithful to Him.

Mark,

Now you're talking about a Mission... I think that Danny was being logically rhetorical.

In Him,

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2000

Danny --

re: the Jamaica congregations, for the most part I believe it is true. Many of the congregations there can and should be supporting their preachers and programs. No doubt there was a level of "mothering" going on for the last 40+ years that has kept them from achieving a self-supporting level.

I do believe there might be a few congregations ... especially those "way out in the country" who still need help. I would like to see that help coming from their sister congregations on the island rather than from the U.S.

You may see some things along this line changing over the next year or so ... if I have anything to say about it. There have been some changes in the way things are being done that will facilitate this, I believe.

And of course, our congregation at IUP will work towards self-support as soon as possible. Even at that, we will begin to give a minimum of 10% to missions even while we are a "mission congregation." That is the only way to ensure the people understand the need to give to missions, starting from the beginning.

From the beginning I will be teaching that the concept of tithing is a BEGINNING POINT for the Christian. All that we have under the New Covenant is so much better than what was had under the Old ... and tithing was just a beginning point even under the Old. There were many offerings that were given on top of the tithe. That is the way it should be for Christians as well.

You know that if every person in a congregation tithed, money would never be a problem. So we tithe, and give above the tithe (those are the true offerings to God). Not because we HAVE to but becuase we GET to ... big difference!

BTW -- I'd love to have a copy of your thesis! Any time you can shoot a copy this way, it would be great!

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2000

Darrell I totally agree with you 100%!

Nate, I am sorry to make a wide statement as I did. Sure you are right. In fact God has sent me to a wonderful congregation, but I grew up as a teenager in Florida within the Christian Church- and what I saw from the Tampa Bay and surrounding areas put a bad taste in my mouth. My brother in law ministered in the panhandle and he too had a similar outcome. My dad ministered there too, with similar results. I also scores of ministers who left or were fired, due to the same type of problem congregations. It seems that many churches in Florida (not all) are so dependant upon the winter birds to support them. And they are so paranoid about changing, because the older congregation will drop their support. That to me is scary. I do not want to pick on our colleges, but even they (the one in florida) have succombed to this. They hold a "round up" to drum up support, which in itself is not wrong. But when do they do that... in the begining of the winter season. Please do not get me wrong, I am not trying to be vindictive or antagonistic, but in simple english... "that's the way it is." The prevaling attitude in Fla. churches is to please the winter birds and retirees at all cost and no thought for the kids who have no homes, or on drugs, or are in gangs, or have broken homes.

As far as tithing, I agree with Darrell and Danny both wholeheartly. We are under the New Coventant the Law of grace. I know all this, yet still we cannot be called New Testament Christians, but rather just Christians- because we keep all the Bible (NT and OT) as God inspired. Yes, many things do not apply to us today. But, we must be very careful not to throw out the teachings of the OT because they were under the old covenant. Much of NT teaching is found in the OT and is still applicable for us today. Such as tithing, which I feel is a "good place to start" as Darrell pointed out. Then we can grow to give far beyond that out of love for our Lord Jesus.

-- Anonymous, January 19, 2000

I totally agree with AKelly here. I think we did come full circle with this thread! :)

I would like to suggest that we start a new one, based on one of his comments: alternatives for churches when the prevailing community atmostphere is to have "no thought for the kids who have no homes, or on drugs, or are in gangs, or have broken homes." I am outlining a book which I want to call "Guerilla Christianity." The basis of it is the premise that when the traditional, established church organizations are not acting in accordance with biblical precepts, then the local church, to be effective and biblical, must work outside of and independent of the "establishment." This is not to just be an act of rebellion toward the establishment. It is so the local church can act IAW the Scriptures totally, and make an impact on their area for Christ.

What I am looking for in this area are specifics, not broad sweeping statements. The general idea is that of an operations order, not a mission statement. I am open to any and all suggestions.

I will start a new thread with this topic.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

Because of the on going nature of the thoughts on tithing, I was surprised that no one brought up Hebrews 7, which is in the New Testament. Is not Christ after the order of Melchisedec? see context. How Can Christ receive Tithes, if we do not give them? See verse 8. Keep on studying.Bro Jack

-- Anonymous, January 29, 2000