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Setting: Church entrance Characters: Bro. Newcomer and Bro. OldTimer

Bro. NewComer: "That is an interesting display of pictures on the wall."

Bro. OldTimer: "Yes, we are proud of our picture display. We hired a special photographer to make them look just right."

Bro. NewComer: "I'm wondering why some of the pictures are large and others are very small?"

Bro. OldTimer: "Well, Bro NewComer, as you can see the large pictures at the top are pictures of the Eldership. This is a big church and it is important that our members know what our Eldership looks like in case they meet them in the hallway."

Bro. NewComer: "Hummmm! And that next picture?"

Bro. OldTimer: "Oh, that is Bro. Professional. He is our pulpit Minister. He is a dynamic speaker, and comes to us well educated. We hold him in high esteem."

Bro. NewComer: "You have only one minister here? I was under the impression all Christians are ministers...and that they minister to one another."

Bro. OldTimer: "Of course, in one since, but Minister Professional is a special Minister. We pay him a very large salary for the work he does for us. He visits our sick and teaches several classes during the week. This relieves our Eldership, enabling them to take care of the Lord's business. He puts in long hours of study...why he is always at the building doing the Lord's work."

Bro. NewComer: "I thought the elders' purpose was to teaching and be examples to the sheep they are among."

Bro. OldTimer: "They hired the preacher to do the teaching. Once in awhile one of the elders will fill in when a class needs a substitute but...well, we are always relieved when the preacher returns."

Bro. NewComer: "Who are the men in the next line of pictures...those under Bro., Professional?"

Bro. Oldtimer: "They are the deacons. They are each assigned a job, such as Bro. Eager here. He is in charge of counting the members to be sure they are all at every service. Then h sees that the attendance cards are taken up and sent to the office where on Monday Miss Helper records everything in the computer. The Eldership can know with the click of the mouse who did not sign a card. Those who did not are called on Monday evening for an accounting of why they were not in attendance or if they were...why they didn't sign a card."

Bro. NewComer: "This all sounds very complicated.

Bro. OldTimer: "To run this Church business all of this is necessary. Plans must be made and carried out. Why, this beautiful building and its care takes many hours of the Eldership's time. Then they must continue to look for, and hire, additional staff. In fact, they are now in the process of adding three Junior Ministers and also another Youth Director for the teens. They are not being supervised properly."

Bro. NewComer: "But didn't God tell the parents to supervise and train their own children?"

Bro. OldTimer: "Sure, but parents need help today. In this society they are so busy with the cares of this life they don't have time for the training of their children."

Bro. NewComer: "I see other large pictures under the deaconship. Who are these people?"

Bro. OldTimer: "Those make up the rest of the staff. We were not sure just where to place those pictures...before or after the deaconship."

Bro. NewComer: "What is involved in the work of the staff?"

Bro. OldTimer: "The staff do many things. Mrs. Overhead runs the office..and with an iron hand. If she wasn't so firm just any old member would go in the office and look in the files, or use the Church's equipment. Just recently Bro. Out-of-work wanted to use the computer to work on his resume. She told him that computer was for the Church's business. The nerve of that man. And Bro. Educated is our Church councilor. We had to make him an attractive offer to get him. He is a real asset to our Church. In this day of many problems the members need someone to talk with for encouragement."

Bro. NewComer: "Aren't we all to encourage one another as we interact together?"

Bro. OldTimer: "Well, yes! However, he has been trained in the needs of the members. He was educated in Family Counseling at the famous University Upgrade, and he wears the title...Doctor. Oh Yes, we are fortunate to have him."

Bro. NewComer: "What about all those little pictures. You have to get up r e a l close to see them."

Bro. OldTimer: "They are the members. This gives the members a chance to acquaint themselves others."

As Bro. NewComer walks away, Bro. OldTimer thinks within himself, "This fellow sure asks a lot of questions. He will bear watching. We have had people here before that asked too many questions. It always amazes me why some people want to tend to the Church's business...."

As BRo. OldTimer goes into the auditorium Bro. Musical calls out, "Number five. We gather in the House of the Lord."

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nib

-- Anonymous, January 11, 2000

Answers

Nelta.....

Lee has asked you a question.....as have others......what did I bring public.....that should have been kept private??

You did it.....and now you are trying to lower me to committing the same "ad hominems" that you committed (or if I did it would that be an "ad woman-im").

I have nothing to apologize for. I never apologize for defending the faith once delivered.

How many times must we ask you to please cite what you are referring to?

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2000

Nelta.....

Lee has asked you a question.....as have others......what did I bring public.....that should have been kept private??

You did it.....and now you are trying to lower me to committing the same "ad hominems" that you committed (or if I did it would that be an "ad woman-im").

I have nothing to apologize for. I never apologize for defending the faith once delivered.

How many times must we ask you to please cite what you are referring to?

Really Nelta.....if you want to have any degree of credibility.....you need to cite what you are referring to.

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2000

Brother Newcomer: (to this chat room): Look at this long message.

Sister Old Timer: I've got to straighten everybody out.

Brother Newcomer: Couldn't you be spending your time more wisely?

Sister Old Timer: Ummm..

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2000

Bro. Don'tRockTheBoater: "Why do we have to put up with all this disagreement of Bro. BoatRocker on this forum?"

Bro. BoatRocker: "Was a nerve touched? The purpose of such posting is to get us to THINK and COMPARE."

Bro. LeaveUsAlone: "We don't want to think and compare. We are satisfied with the way things are done. Go away!"

Bro. BoatRocker: "Can't do that. However, you have a choise whether to read the warnings or not. This forum is good because one can pick and choose what to click on and read."

Sis. Grandstand: "Now you leave Br. LeaveUsAlone alone. He is a fine Christian man."

:-):-)

Nelta

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2000

Sister Nelta:

I now quote your words: Bro. BoatRocker: "Was a nerve touched? The purpose of such posting is to get us to THINK and COMPARE."

You want everyone to think and compare. This is a good thing and surely we should think of our beliefs, our words, and our actions by comparing them to the teaching of Gods plenary, verbally, inspired word. But it is difficult when the suggestion you make comes from one, such as yourself, who has demonstrated a complete unwillingness to think and compare her beliefs, words and actions with the teaching of the word of God. You have completely refused to think of your words in this forum and compare them to the word of God and answer those of us who have challenged you in the thread that you started called An apology to the forum. There are many there that have asked you to think and compare your words and actions in this forum with the truth but you have run away and failed to answer. You have the time to start a new thread but no time to answer the arguments against you in the treads that you start.

For that reason I am copying and pasting the comments that I made to you in the thread that you started entitled an apology to the forum and ask you one more time to respond. You see when we touch a nerve with you it is your tactic to simply run away. I urge you not to run away anymore from the truth. Answer the things that have been put to you in the threads that you start. If you cannot answer then have the courage to admit that you are either in error or that you need to study the matter further. But do not just cowardly run away. The following is what I wrote to you in the thread,  An apology to the forum. I once again ask you to respond. You want to challenge others to think and compare but you appear completely unwilling to be challenged in the same way to think and compare when you are questioned by others. The following is what I wrote to you in the tread entitled An Apology to the Forum. I ask you again to go back to that thread and answer those of us who challenge your false accusation that Brother Danny has something against women. You continue to fail to even attempt to point to any evidence whatsoever that could even begin to slightly justify that false claim. These are my words to you in that thread:

Nelta:

I now quote your following words with a response.

I have received private responses to my criticism of Danny on the forum. Each has suggested (kindly) that what I had to say to Danny should have been sent privately. I agree with that. This should never have been brough public. I am sorry for that and apology to the forum and to Danny. As one person said, that is what Christ would want me to do, and I agree. I will continue to post on the forum but in a kinder way.

Now this statement of yours has every appearance of being an apology but it is everything but an apology for your actual wrong- doing. Under the thread that you entitled, Danny and the women you falsely accused Brother Danny of having something against women. This thread appears to have been removed from the message board so that I am not able to quote it in full for all to see. Nevertheless, you accused Brother Danny of having something against women without offering any evidence whatsoever of his having said anything in this forum that would justify such a claim.

You have yet to specify anything that he has specifically said against women in this forum. Then you come back and apologize for having publicly said things to Danny that you should have said in private. By doing so you leave the impression of being apologetic when in fact you have left a false impression that the things you have said about brother Danny were true and that your only wrong was to have said so publicly. If Brother Danny has said anything PUBLICLY against women it is not wrong to PUBLICLY correct him. But the truth is that he has not done any such thing and your transgression is not that you accused him PUBLICLY but because you have accused him FALSELY. Even if you were to have PRIVATELY accused him FALSELY it would be sinful. For a LIE is always sinful whether it is a PUBLIC LIE or a PRIVATE one!

For this very reason you have left an innocent bystander with the impression that women are not treated fairly in this forum. Her false impression, that you are responsible for giving her, is evident from her words which I now quote: By apologizing, you've given these guys the upper hand. How can they be expected to avoid the temptation to exercise their dominance over you? Especially the ones who already have a low opinion of women. From these words one can see that she has the impression that we want to have the upper hand over you and that especially applies to those in this forum who already have a low opinion of women. Now the truth is that no one in this forum, especially Brother Danny, has demonstrated by any single word that they have said that they have a low opinion of women. I have not read one single word that was written that could be construed to be a personal attack upon women just because they are women. NONE! But by playing the gender card as you have done in your completely FALSE and UNSUBSTANTIATED charge against Brother Danny has left this innocent bystander with a completely false impression of both Danny and this forum. Therefore she is seeking to defend you from being persecuted just because you are a woman when in fact you have suffered absolutely no harm whatsoever in this forum just because you are a woman. But you are so willing to let this LIE stand without either proving with specific examples that Danny or anyone else in this forum has EVER had anything against you just because you are a woman. Even our innocent bystander does not have or at least does not offer a single example of anyone in this forum that genuinely has anything against women. But she still thinks that you should go to another board referring especially to those who have a low opinion of women as the reason you should leave. Yet she has not, because she cannot, point to a single example of ANYONE in this forum who has demonstrated by their words that they, in fact, have a low opinion of women. Therefore your sin has not only injured your Brother Danny, who is completely innocent of your false charge. It is also against the rest of us in this forum who have spoken in defense of Brother Danny against your false charge because it appears that we too have something against women. Now, Nelta, you, and you alone are responsible for this sin. This is a sin that you have committed publicly and therefore it is one for which you should publicly repent. Merely apologizing for having said these things publicly instead of being discrete enough to say it privately is not repentance for what you have done. You have Falsely accused your brother and you have done that publicly in such a way as to bring a false impression of the rest of us in this forum as if many of us have something against women. Either prove that your accusations against Danny and the rest of us who are defending him are true or repent publicly so that others such as our innocent bystander can see that it was Nelta who sinned in this matter and not Brother Danny or anyone else in this forum. Tell her the truth that you cannot give one single example from the words of Brother Danny or anyone else in this forum that would justify drawing the conclusion that anyone in this forum has anything against women. If you cannot do this then you can rest assured that our Lord Jesus Christ is not pleased with your pretentious apology. For By apologizing for the wrong thing you leave the FALSE impression that you are a poor persecuted woman who is being brow beaten by a bunch of domineering men who claim to be Christians but have something against women. This impression, which you are well aware is your intention to make, is a false one to the core and I defy anyone to prove that we have demonstrated any lack of respect in this forum toward any person just because they are of the feminine gender!

Your apology is not acceptable because it is not for the sin that you have committed here on this board. Such is not at all what the Lord would have you to do. Until you genuinely repent you cannot and will not be forgiven by our Lord Jesus Christ for such evil intent.

Now I do not pretend that what I have said to you will be received well by anyone. But what I have said is true. It needed to be said and it needed to be said publicly. You should repent of this sin publicly. I urge you because I care for your soul to turn from this evil completely. I do not ask that you repent for my sake. For my soul is not in danger in this matter. If I sat idly by without telling you these truths my soul would be at stake. So even if you do not repent my hands are clean of your blood and your soul will be required at your own hand. Now you may think all of this is frivolous but sin is never frivolous.  The Lords hands are not shortened that it cannot save neither is his ear heavy that he cannot hear; but your iniquities have separated between you and your God and your sins have hid His face from you that he WILL NOT HEAR. Isaiah 59:1,2. When Peter found Simon to be in the Gall of bitterness and the bound of iniquity he told him to repent and pray God if the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. I call upon you to do the same. Repent and pray God that the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

I do pray fervently that you will turn from your course of trying to depict Danny and this forum as having something against women. For your apology does not indicate any change whatsoever in your course which is clearly in the direction of deliberately leaving the FALSE impression that Brother Danny and other unspecified persons have something against women. This is wrong and sinful and I do pray that you will see the wisdom of correcting this problem by repenting before God and before all in whose presence you committed this sin so that you will not be condemned for this deliberate and intentional lie.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2000

Lee, I didn't read all of the posts in response to me. I don't have time. I didn't read yours. What I apologized for was sending something public that should have gone private. If you remember, I said someone wrote me privately and asked what Danny had against women. I said it got me to thinking and then I said to me he was a coward. That is not what I apologized for. The person perceived Danny had something against women. That person had read his posts to three of us (women) where he had been rude and sarcastic. BTW the one who wrote to me was not the person who came on anno. She was giving her opinion and I think she had every right to do so.

I will close this to say I am COMPLETELY through with this subject. What I think about Danny is my business, from now on, as is what he thinks about me. The problem was that he and I both brought public what should have been private.

Nelta

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2000

Nelta: I am glad that you have at least acknowledged that we have said something in response to your patently false accusations against Brother Danny in this forum. I now quote your words with a response:

Lee, I didn't read all of the posts in response to me. I don't have time. I didn't read yours. What I apologized for was sending something public that should have gone private. If you remember, I said someone wrote me privately and asked what Danny had against women. I said it got me to thinking and then I said to me he was a coward. That is not what I apologized for. The person perceived Danny had something against women. That person had read his posts to three of us (women) where he had been rude and sarcastic. BTW the one who wrote to me was not the person who came on anno. She was giving her opinion and I think she had every right to do so.

I will close this to say I am COMPLETELY through with this subject. What I think about Danny is my business, from now on, as is what he thinks about me. The problem was that he and I both brought public what should have been private.

Nelta

You begin by telling us that you do not have time to read all of the post in response to you: Lee, I didn't read all of the posts in response to me. I don't have time.

Obviously you only have time to make false accusations but you conveniently have not enough time to offer any proof of you accusations. You clearly accused Brother Danny of having something against women and you had absolutely no evidence to support that accusation. You took the time to respond to me but you still have not found the time to give evidence that your accusation against him is true. Give us any quotation from Brother Danny that caused you to accuse him of having something against women. Your problem in this matter is clearly not a lack of time but rather a complete lack of EVIDENCE to prove that your accusation was true. Your accusation is completely false and all who read this forum can see that it is false. Therefore you have deliberately LIED. You have been given every opportunity to correct this completely erroneous idea that cannot be supported by the facts. It is obvious that your intent was to allow your statement that Brother Danny has something against women to stand even though you know that it is completely false. A more deliberate effort to tell a LIE and stand by it could not be made by anyone.

Then you tell us what you apologized for with these words:

What I apologized for was sending something public that should have gone private.

The message that you delivered publicly was that Danny has something against women. That message was delivered and you have yet to offer even the slightest proof that such was true. You have given absolutely no evidence to justify that FALSE accusation. Therefore you delivered what you knew to be a complete fabrication and a totally false accusation publicly and you think that your only offense was that you made this statement publicly! A lie is an offense to God and man and it does not make the slightest amount of difference whether the lie is told publicly or privately. Unless you can prove that what you said concerning Brother Danny was true then you have LIED and are therefore as a Christian obligated to repent for accusing your brother FALSELY. The fact that you did so publicly only obligates you to repent and correct the LIE publicly. But instead you merely apologize that you accused him publicly deliberately ignoring the fact that you accused him FALSELY and think that you should be clean of this vicious sin of telling a LIE about your brother. A lie should not go at all either privately or publicly. And no matter how it is conveyed a Christian should NEVER be one to carry LIES! You have LIED and you will never be finished with this matter until you repent and publicly correct this evil that you have committed against your brother!

Then you try to tell us to remember what you said and seek to escape responsibility by blaming other women for this situation with these words:

If you remember, I said someone wrote me privately and asked what Danny had against women. I said it got me to thinking and then I said to me he was a coward. Now you clearly wrote about what these women had said because you agreed with them. You wanted the impression to be left that Danny had something against women. You used them to convey your opinion that Danny had something against women. If we need to we can ask Duane to bring that thread back so that all can see exactly what and how you said these things. I do remember exactly what you said. But I will just ask you to come back and do now what you were not willing to do then and tell us that you do not believe that Brother Danny has anything against women. Will you do that? You are with the above words attempting to leave the impression that you did not agree with those women who had told you that brother Danny had something against women! When you wrote those words you were in complete agreement with their completely unfounded sentiments and even sought to have us agree and tell you what we thought God thought about brother Danny in this matter. Now if you did not agree with their view that Brother Danny has something against women why did you not say that you disagreed with that view? Are you willing now to say that you do not believe that Brother Danny has anything against women? So long as you continue to support your accusation that Brother Danny has something against women you are continuing to support the LIE that cannot be proven by anything that Brother Danny has said in this forum. You also called him a Coward because you agreed so much with the view of these unknown women who seemed to think that he has something against women. You cannot even offer any evidence to support your accusation that Brother Danny is a Coward! That is just another LIE for which you have shown no compunction of conscience that you should apologize for having said. You have committed a great wrong and an evil in the sight of all and unless you repent you will not find forgiveness for this deliberate sin against God and your Brother.  If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a LIAR: For he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, CANNOT love God whom he hath not seen. And this commandment we have from him, that he who loveth God love his brother also (1 John 4:20,21). One who falsely accuses a brother of anything is lying about his brother and therefore cannot love him. This you have done. Anyone who calls a brother a coward falsely is lying about his brother and cannot love him. This you have also done. You therefore do not show Christian love toward your brother in this matter and according to these verses you demonstrate that you therefore do not love God! Repent of this evil sister before it eternally destroys you!

Then you say: The person perceived Danny had something against women. That person had read his posts to three of us (women) where he had been rude and sarcastic. BTW the one who wrote to me was not the person who came on anno. She was giving her opinion and I think she had every right to do so.

Now with these words you again seek to shift responsibility to these fathom women. You even defend their rights to give their opinion. Of course that have a right to give their opinion. They gave their opinion to you. You agreed with their opinion and delivered it to us and sought to convince us that they were correct. Then when it backfired and everyone completely rejected this as pure absolute false nonsense you wanted to run away. It never occurred to you at that time to quickly tell us that such was the opinion of these fathom women who had a right to their opinion even though you also disagreed. No, you agreed with their view then and could not find a way to escape from the onslaught of the negative reaction and tried to run away. Then you decided instead to slide out from your responsibility by pretending to be conciliatory and apologetic by apologizing for something that could not be wrong if your accusations against Brother Danny had been true. Now you try again to escape the truth by pretending that this was not YOUR PERCEPTION but theirs! How absurd can you be in your efforts to tell a LIE and try to avoid responsibility for it! You have lost ALL credibility with reasonable honest people who read this forum.

Then you close by making matters even worse with these words:

I will close this to say I am COMPLETELY through with this subject. What I think about Danny is my business, from now on, as is what he thinks about me. The problem was that he and I both brought public what should have been private.

Can you tell us exactly what Brother Danny brought Public that should have been kept private? Now you are trying to apologize for Brother Danny when he has done absolutely nothing wrong in this matter! How arrogant can you become? Is there no limit to satan's power over you sister? Now you tell another LIE that Brother Danny has made something public that he should have kept private. You are compounding this egregious sin by continuing to accuse your brother falsely!

No, Nelta, you are not COMPLETELY through with this subject. For you see it is not COMPLETELY within your power to be finished with this matter. First of all I will not just let it drop so easily. Second and most importantly if you do not repent of these LIES you will be judged in the last day for telling them. If you do not repent you will not be finished with this subject until the judgment day! How tragic that you are so unwilling to humble yourself under the mighty hand of God and repent of this obvious and public sin against God and your Brother. No you are sadly mistaken to think that such evil as this will go away simply unnoticed and unpunished by God. This issue will not go away so easily. You cannot sin in this way and refuse defiantly to accept responsibility for it by refusing to acknowledge it and repent of it and escape Gods wrath. It will not happen, Nelta. For I perceive that you are without doubt in the gall of bitterness and the bond of iniquity and I will continue at every opportunity to URGE you to repent of this evil behavior. This is not just a matter of excessive or emotional debate rhetoric. This is a matter of your FALSELY accusing a Brother in Christ and therefore it is deliberately LYING. This is a blatant and public sin that must be repented of if you seek the mercy and grace that comes from our blessed Lord and savior Jesus Christ. Your soul is at stake, sister, and I will not just sit by and neglect to do all that is within my power to remind you of your dire need for REPENTANCE! Are you just too PROUD to repent?

I do pray fervently for you sister Nelta. This behavior is not characteristic of you. I pray that you will turn from your evil intentions of depicting Brother Danny as one who has something against women when you KNOW that such is clearly NOT TRUE.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2000

Y'all sound like a bunch of women!

-- Anonymous, January 13, 2000