Information Feedback, general systems and the forum : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

 Not for everyone but here is a snip from a remarkable site on General Systems Theory. The idea of this snip is to highlite feedback as an essential element of information transfer.

 The reason to post this is to point out the importance of forums such as this to put feedback into our information sturcture. Without such feedback the flows of information become closed or cease to exist. This isn't a great way to justify alot of the information posted here and elsewhere but some of the posters over the Y2K alarmist era have produced effects that may continue well into the 21st. century.

To me the important part is not the content of the feedback but the efficency of the information transfer itself.

I hope the forum evolves into something greater than it is. To do that we must continue on the path of making what we do part of a greater whole. Y2K is passing, to where do we go now? The future?

If anyone is interested in General Systems Theory I highly recommend the site below. It is impressive.



This lesson is designed to be an introduction to General Systems Theory. The texts presented here are concerned with those characteristics typical of all systems, whether mechanical, biological, or social.
The idea of a general theory of all systems was introduced by Ludwig von Bertalanffy, whose now classic essay The Meaning of General Systems Theory is reproduced below.

Big Snip

Information and Entropy

Another development which is closely connected with system theory is that of the modern theory of communication. It has often been said that energy is the currency of physics, just as economic values can be expressed in dollars or pounds. There are, however, certain fields of physics and technology where this currency is not readily acceptable. This is the case in the field of communication which, due to the development of telephones, radio, radar, calculating machines, servomechanisms and other devices, has led to the rise of a new branch of physics.

The general notion in communication theory is that of information. In many cases, the flow of information corresponds to a flow of energy, e.g., if light waves emitted by some objects reach the eye or a photoelectric cell, elicit some reaction of the organism or some machinery, and thus convey information. However, examples can easily be given where the flow of information is opposite to the flow of energy, or where information is transmitted without a flow of energy or matter. The first is the case in a telegraph cable, where a direct current is flowing in one direction, but information, a message, can be sent in either direction by interrupting the current at one point and recording the interruption at another. For the second case, think of the photoelectric door openers as they are installed in many supermarkets: the shadow, the cutting off of light energy, informs the photocell that somebody is entering, and the door opens. So information, in general, cannot be expressed in terms of energy.

There is, however, another way to measure information, namely, in terms of decisions. Take the game of Twenty Questions, where we are supposed to find out an object by receiving simple "yes" or "no" answers to our questions. The amount of information conveyed in one answer is a decision between two alternatives, such as animal or nonanimal. With two questions, it is possible to decide for one out of four possibilities, e.g., mammalnonmammal, or flowering plantnonflowering plant. With three answers, it is a decision out of eight, etc. Thus, the logarithm at the base 2 of the possible decisions can be used as a measure of information, the unit being the so-called binary unit or bit. The information contained in two answers is log2 4 = 2 bits, of three answers, log2 8 = 3 bits, etc. This measure of information happens to be similar to that of entropy or rather negative entropy, since entropy also is defined as a logarithm of probability. But entropy, as we have already heard, is a measure of disorder; hence negative entropy or information is a measure of order or of organization since the latter, compared to distribution at random, is an improbable state.

A second central concept of the theory of communication and control is that of feedback. A simple scheme for feedback is the following (Fig. 2.1).


The system comprises, first, a receptor or "sense organ," be it a photoelectric cell, a radar screen, a thermometer, or a sense organ in the biological meaning. The message may be, in technological devices, a weak current, or, in a living organism, represented by nerve conduction, etc. Then there is a center recombining the incoming messages and transmitting them to an eflfector, consisting of a machine like an electromotor, a heating coil or solenoid, or of a muscle which responds to the incoming message in such a way that there is power output of high energy. Finally, the functioning of the effector is monitored back to the receptor, and this makes the system self-regulating, i.e., guarantees stabilization or direction of action.

Feedback arrangements are widely used in modern technology for the stabilization of a certain action, as in thermostats or in radio receivers; or for the direction of actions towards a goal where the aberration from that goal is fed back, as information, till the goal or target is reached. This is the case in self-propelled missiles which seek their target, anti-aircraft fire control systems, ship-steering systems, and other so-called servomechanisms.

There is indeed a large number of biological phenomena which correspond to the feedback model. First, there is the phenomenon of so-called homeostasis, or maintenance of balance in the living organism, the prototype of which is thermoregulation in warmblooded animals. Cooling of the blood stimulates certain centers in the brain which "turn on" heat-producing mechanisms of the body, and the body temperature is monitored back to the center so that temperature is maintained at a constant level. Similar homeostatic mechanisms exist in the body for maintaining the constancy of a great number of physicochemical variables. Furthermore, feedback systems comparable to the servomechanisms of technology exist in the animal and human body for the regulation of actions. If we want to pick up a pencil, a report is made to the central nervous system of the distance by which we have failed to grasp the pencil in the first instance; this information is then fed back to the central nervous system so that the motion is controlled till the aim is reached.

So a great variety of systems in technology and in living nature follow the feedback scheme, and it is well-known that a new discipline, called Cybernetics, was introduced by Norbert Wiener to deal with these phenomena. The theory tries to show that mechanisms of a feedback nature are the base of teleological or purposeful behavior in man-made machines as well as in living organisms, and in social systems.

It should be borne in mind, however, that the feedback scheme is of a rather special nature. It presupposes structural arrangements of the type mentioned. There are, however, many regulations in the living organism which are of essentially diflerent nature, namely, those where the order is effectuated by a dynamic interplay of processes. Recall, e.g., embryonic regulations where the whole is reestablished from the parts in equifinal processes. It can be shown that the primary regulations in organic systems, i.e., those which are most fundamental and primitive in embryonic development as well as in evolution, are of the nature of dynamic interaction. They are based upon the fact that the living organism is an open system, maintaining itself in, or approaching a steady state. Superposed are those regulations which we may call secondary, and which are controlled by fixed arrangements, especially of the feedback type. This state of aflairs is a consequence of a general principle of organization which may be called progressive mechanization. At first, systemsbiological, neurological, psychological or socialare governed by dynamic interaction of their components; later on, fixed arrangements and conditions of constraint are established which render the system and its parts more efficient, but also gradually diminish and eventually abolish its equipotentiality. Thus, dynamics is the broader aspect, since we can always arrive from general system laws to machinelike function by introducing suitable conditions of constraint, but the opposite is not possible.

-- Brian (, January 07, 2000


I wrote

"""To me the important part is not the content of the feedback but the efficency of the information transfer itself."""

Makes me wonder if this is what Koskie had in mind? Efficent communications with minimal content :o)

-- Brian (, January 07, 2000.

Hi Brian!

The implications are staggaring!!!

The less you say, the more efficiently you say it... that means I'm a dinosaur!

Still raining down there? It's still snowing up here!

-- (, January 07, 2000.

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