I just looked up the definition of Isaac in the New Testament. Can anyone tell me why it is translated "to colonize", when in the Old Testament it is translated: 3327. Yitschaq, yits-khawk'; from H6711; laughter (i.e. mockery); Jitschak (or Isaac), son of Abraham:--Isaac. Comp. H3446.

(Mat 8:11 KJV) "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven."

Isaac; 2664. katapauo, kat-ap-ow'-o; from G2596 and G3973; to settle down, i.e. (lit.) to colonize, or (fig.) to (cause to) desist:--cease, (give) rest (-rain).

Is there a message here?

-- Anonymous, January 06, 2000

Answers

Mark,

First, Strong's was never intended to be a dictionary - it is a concordance. I see many people on this forum as well as many personal emails I get using Strong's to define words. The "definitions" Strong provides are "helpful hints" to someone doing word searches. If you want definitions, the standard Greek Lexicon is Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich's (BAG) Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament. Thayer's is also good but pretty much outdated and not as thorough as the BAG. If you cannot read the Greek then Vine's Expository Dictionary of the Greek NT is pretty good.

Secondly, I still don't know exactly what you are getting at with your references to Israel vs. Judah on another post and am not sure what message we might be able to ascertain from this post. I am not trying to be obstinate, I just don't get it. However, I have been accused of being thick-headed on more than one occasion :o)

-- Anonymous, January 06, 2000

Yes, Mark, there is a message, and the message is, if something in the Bible doesn't seem to make any sense at all, then I've probably not understood it at all, and I need to look into it more. God is not the Author of confusion or of nonsense.

The people who typed Strongs made a typographical error. The NT reference should be to #2464, rather than to #2664.

-- Anonymous, January 07, 2000

Isaac is translated: katapauo in the Greek. I can't find a mistake.

(Mat 1:2 KJV) "Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;"

(Mat 1:2 HG) abraam:G11 gennao:G1080 katapauo:G2664 . katapauo:G2664 gennao:G1080 iakob:G2384 . iakob:G2384 gennao:G1080 ioudas:G2455 . . adelphos:G80

2664. katapauo, kat-ap-ow'-o; from G2596 and G3973; to settle down, i.e. (lit.) to colonize, or (fig.) to (cause to) desist:--cease, (give) rest (-rain).

This is what I am getting at: (Mat 6:33 KJV) "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

(Gen 28:13 KJV) "And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;"

(Gen 28:14 KJV) "And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed."

(Gen 21:12 KJV) "And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called."

(Mat 13:24 KJV) "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:" (field, or world, or land.)

(Mat 13:25 KJV) "But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way."

(Mat 13:26 KJV) "But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also."

What I am getting at re: Judah and Israel is they are two distinct entities and if you read a prophecy re: Judah and apply it to the ten tribes of Israel you will come up with and incorrect understanding. Likewise if you read a prophesy re: Israel, Ten Tribes, and apply it to the two tribes of the Southern Kingdom Of Judah you come up with an incorrect understanding.

In seeking out the Kingdom of God you have to follow God's directions: (Isa 51:1 KJV) "Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged."

(Isa 51:2 KJV) "Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him."

Have the Jews increased? Not by my understanding. Have the colonizers of the earth increased? Absolutly! History tells you who the colonizers of the earth are and God predicted it and brought it to pass. "Sown in the field."

This is a search for the Kingdom of God!

(2 Tim 2:7 KJV) "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things."

Regards

-- Anonymous, January 07, 2000

Mark, one thing I would like to know... are you trying to say that those who occupy modern Israel are not the real Jews? What brand of theological understanding are you trying to push? Please just flat out say. Some of the (KJV) scriptures cited are unclear as to what you are trying to say with all of this. Why not use a better translation that is more accurate to get your point across and just flat out say?

-- Anonymous, January 07, 2000

Mark: You wrote:

"Isaac is translated: katapauo in the Greek. I can't find a mistake. (Mat 1:2 KJV) "Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;"

"(Mat 1:2 HG) abraam:G11 gennao:G1080 katapauo:G2664 . katapauo:G2664 gennao:G1080 iakob:G2384 . iakob:G2384 gennao:G1080 ioudas:G2455 . . adelphos:G80 "

The mistake is that the Greek word "katapauo" does NOT appear in the Matthew passage. The Greek word "Isaak" DOES. The Greek word "Isaak" is listed as #2464 in the Strong's back pages. The #2664 word "katapauo" DOES NOT APPEAR in the first chapter of Matthew. However, whoever did the typesetting on the classic editions of Strong's made a typographical error in listing #2664 as the reference for the word "Isaak" in Matthew 1:2, where they should have typed "2464". They missed a digit. They substituted a 6 for a 4.

You are making a theological assertion based on false information.

-- Anonymous, January 07, 2000

Sam Loveall is correct!

-- Anonymous, January 07, 2000

Sam, this is good information! Gonna go mark my Strongs now! Thanks!

-- Anonymous, January 10, 2000

Sam,

Must be a big typo. I'll get my other books out and study further. Interesting mistake if it is so.

Nevertheless. (Gen 28:14 KJV) "And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed."

(2 Sam 7:10 KJV) "Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,"

Set the interpretation of Isaac aside for now and look at these two verses.

The seed of Abraham through Isaac was to spread out over the earth. That is they were to colonize.

King David was promised an "appointed place". This was outside of Palestine and it is where Israel was to dwell unmolested.

(Gen 48:19 KJV) "And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations."

Joseph was promised the birthright and Judah was promised the scepter: (1 Chr 5:2 KJV) "For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's:)"

(Gen 49:1 KJV) "And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days."

Jacob/Israel foretold the condition of his sons in the last days and Joseph is described as: (Gen 49:22 KJV) "Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:"

(Gen 49:23 KJV) "The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:"

(Gen 49:24 KJV) "But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)"

This blessing of Joseph and the prophesy of the last days describes a Great Nation and a Great Multitude of Nations. Neither of which fits the tiny unblessed Nation of Israel. It describes the United States of American and the British Commonwealth. Both Christian.

Even Thomas Jefferson said at George Washingtons funeral, "Truly it can be said that a great man of Israel has died."

Re: the Jews, Jesus told us to be aware of the fake Jews: (Rev 2:9 KJV) "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

(Ezek 11:15 KJV) "Son of man, thy brethren, even thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, (Esau?) and all the house of Israel wholly, are they unto whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, Get you far from the LORD: unto us is this land given in possession."

Above is, IMO, what the present day Jews/Israelis told Britain. Get out! And, IMO, it is in context of the days of Chritianity: (Ezek 11:19 KJV) "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:"

(Ezek 11:20 KJV) "That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God."

And in context God is talking about Israel. His Bride as spoken of in Revelations.

-- Anonymous, January 10, 2000

Mark you are way off base on this one. Most of what you are trying to push is that modern Israelis are not the real Jews, and that Christians are now the real Jewish people. God has never taken away His promise from Israel. They will always keep on fulfilling prophecy due to God's everlasting covenant that will never pass away (if God no longer honors them, then why are they fulfilling biblical prophecy?). True, that any Jew must receive Jesus as Messiah in order to gain eternal life, but that has not interupted God's covenant with them. For you to make a difference is theologically wrong. You are doing what Martin Luther sanctioned when he said that the Jews are not the true people of God and they are worthy of death. In fact Adolf Hitler killed the Jews by the millions due to Luther's teaching. In fact the Roman Catholic Church has never appologized to the Jews until recently for Hitler's actions, he thought he was acting on behalf of the church.

I would caution you Mark... don't go there! You not only are wrong biblically, but you are bordering on antisemetic behaivior that just will not due. The only reason America has survived is due to it's protection of Israel in the last 5 decades. Britian, has been punished due to her actions against Jews during the WWII, when she turned them away as they migrated before the war. Britian is no more Chrstian than Iran is. You cannot make those broad claims without proof, which you cannot provide. Please be more careful.

-- Anonymous, January 10, 2000

This sounds an awful lot like the British Israelism heresy of Herbert W. Armstrong that until recently was a hallmark of the Worldwide Church of God. Armstrong believed, and tried to back up with scripture, that the British (and hence, also the United States) were really the ten lost tribes of Israel.

-- Anonymous, January 10, 2000

"Mark you are way off base on this one. Most of what you are trying to push is that modern Israelis are not the real Jews, and that Christians are now the real Jewish people. God has never taken away His promise from Israel" Answer this one: (Rev 2:9 KJV) "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." If Jesus thought it a good idea to warn us about fake Jews then don't you think it a good idea to ponder the thought? Why is it that people love to throw RACISM into a persons face? It is a plain and simple attack to discredit a persons position and it is unworthy of a Spirit Filled Christian. If you can go into Scripture and show me that God Almighty did not seperate Judah, The Southern Nation, and Israel, The northern nation then I will be interested in viewing that info. Even your Bible maps show a very clear distinction. And answer this one: (Isa 2:2 KJV) "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it." Which Nation is the "top of the mountains." If you say it is the Israeli nation then prove it. What prophesy has the small Israeli nation fulfilled? Perhaps this one: (Luke 19:27 KJV) "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Re: Herbert Armstrong. He was a good salesman and if you study some of his writings you find that he incorporated teachings from other church groups. You should have gotten a view of his lawyer, second hand man, thief, won't mention his RACE for fear of being labeled ANTISEMETIC. Israel was prophesied to become CHRISTIAN, if the word of God has any merit you have to conclude that the Christian Nations are the fulfilment of this prophecy: (Hosea 1:10 KJV) "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God." My understanding re: the Jews is that they number approx 15 million. With the majority of them living in the US. Sands of the sea? Not by my understanding. Are Christians the true Israel? (Mat 2:6 KJV) "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel." (Mat 21:43 KJV) "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." The Jews as a people rejected Jesus. Anyone reading the New Testament should be able to come to that conclusion. (Mat 21:44 KJV) "And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." What stone is Jesus talking about here? (Dan 2:34 KJV) "Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces." What nation "smote the image?" The United States of America. What Nation has claimed to have come into existence "By the providence of Almighty God." The United States of America. Here a little and there a little. Remember, Jesus gave us an idea as to how to find the kingdom...(Mat 13:52 KJV) "Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old." There are many things re: the Kingdom, to be understood. The notion that was pushed off on me before I was kicked out of the last church is,"The Kingdom is laid up in your hearts." If you were establishing a righteous kingdom would you use this as a foundation? (Jer 17:9 KJV) "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

-- Anonymous, January 11, 2000

Sorry about the format on that last one.

"I would caution you Mark... don't go there! You not only are wrong biblically, but you are bordering on antisemetic behaivior that just will not due. The only reason America has survived is due to it's protection of Israel in the last 5 decades."

I am told to prove things, prove that statement.

The only reason the Israelis have survived is because of the protection of the United States and the enormous amount of money we have poured into the State of Israel. They are not the "top of the mountains" and they have not been "cut out without hands."

(Dan 2:45 KJV) "Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."

The Babylonian (succesion of ) Empires has been smashed by US. And it is my opinion that "the times of the Gentiles" has ended/is ending. And we will see the ultimate conclusion of the Babylonian System when these worlds are fulfilled: (Rev 14:8 KJV) "And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

(Col 3:5 KJV) "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:"

Babylon (The Ssystem) covets money which is idolatry, which is Spiritually, fornication.

-- Anonymous, January 11, 2000

Mark I do not know, where you went to college or who taught you your form of systematic theology, but on many points you are mis appling scripture. I will say this to clarify... any person who does not receive Christ Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior are not going to gain eternal life, but God does keep His promise to Israel (physical) even though we are the spiritual people of God. Zechariah 12 says this "This is the word of the Lord concerning Israel. The Lord who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth and who forms the spirit of man within him declares: "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup of reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the Lord. "I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. THen the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, "The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God." (Zed.12:1-5). Is this modern Israel or is this the church?

Now the above passage, refers to both Israel (the whole house) and Judah who dwells in Jerusalem. To say that this or any passage does not refer to modern day Jews is to alligorize scripture. When you alligorize then you can make any false doctrine you want to appear legitimate. For example, Baptism water immersion, is alligorized by some to mean spirit baptism therefore you do not need to be water immersed for salvation. Do you see what is going on? Many theologians thoughout history have done this and it just causes problems. Why not just take the simple method of hermeneutics, just let the bible speak for itself. A good rule of thumb is to not to spiritualize everything in the Bible... when it says something just beleive it literally. Now I agaree that there will be a need to account for similies and metaphores. When you quote Rev. 3:9 (cf. 2:9) from the letter to the church at Philadelphia, which here again you apply this passage to mean all Jews. Which does not fit the context. In that day the early church came under great amount of persecution from the Jews and other religions. Satan has always tried to persecute Christ's church. Satan means accuser- he is the accuser of the bretheren. Any person whatever the background, who does not accept Christ will suffer eternal damnation. But, to make a theolical dogma stating that all Jews are a synagogue of Satan does not fit the context. When Jesus state that "who claim to be Jews though are not- but are liars" does not apply to every Jew born. It applies to all those who deny the Lordship of Jesus Christ (Jew or gentile) and who preach anything other than the gospel of Christ. Christ was talking about the Judiazers who not only persecuted Christianity but nor did they keep what the law required to be a real Jew in the first place. Because of the grace of Christ we are engrafted into the vine. But, nowhere in scripture does it say that the pomises of Israel is ours exclusively. The fact that God is still working with Israel in history proves that His promises are true. Israel must accept Jesus as Messiah, this will further play out in in future events as the antichrist will arise and Israel will think he is the Messiah.

Mark, you wanted proof to God working in modern Israel's history. I will answer your question with several questions. Does, God say anything about the events in 1948 and 1967 when the Hebrews became a nation in a day? I will let you look that one up it is there. Also, the fact that in over 2,000 years the Jews never spoke Hebrew until recent, say anything. What about the Middle East peace talks, will there eventually be peace in Israel? What does Daniel have to say about a 7 year peace treaty? I will leave you with these questions.

-- Anonymous, January 11, 2000

Mark,

I have a different question for you, about your knowledge of Biblical history.

What happened to the ten tribes? Where did they go?

Answer this question correctly, according to both the BIble and history, and you'll be well on the way to the truth behind this discussion.

-- Anonymous, January 11, 2000

AKelly,

Judah still exists. I am not saying otherwise. There are fake Jews, or People who adhere to Judaism who are not of the lineage of Judah.

In the following verses the Jews are telling Jesus they had never been in bondage. Israel was in bondage in Egypt and these people claimed to have not been in bondage...(John 8:31 KJV) "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"

(John 8:32 KJV) "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

(John 8:33 KJV) "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?"

Jesus never denied they were Abraham's seed.

(Rom 9:7 KJV) "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called."

The men above admit they are the seed of Abraham. But it is in Isaac not Ishmael, or any of the other sons of Abraham.

Have to go to work. Will get back.

Thanks for input.

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2000

Couldn't help it. I had to put this old article in here.

This article originally appeared in the Christian Standard, January 10, 1982.

Messianic Nationalism and the Credibility of the Bible Roger Chambers

If you care about the subject, you will either sentence this essay to the stake as a piece of heresy or consign it to the efficient oblivion of the file cabinet. In either case, it will be remembered on earth no more. Please, neither flame nor file! Perhaps a ten-year time capsule? Any significance of this piece is in its survival more than its approval.

Here it is. The state of Israel does not fulfill prophecy, so if it falls, the Bible will not fall with it. Should Russia fail to show up for an Armageddon, Scripture will not be broken. Nowhere does the Bible suggest Russia will invade Israel. With God there is no longer a distinction between Jew and non-Jew, in or out of the church, and He gave no signs for the immediate return of Jesus. There. Right or wrong, its in the record. Ten years from now it might be important to remember that a teacher of eschatology said it in 1982.

I have on my desk a news photo of Baptist clergyman and Moral Majority president Jerry Falwell in a Washington meeting with Israels Prime Minister Menachem Begin. After Begin dispatched his warplanes against Iraqs atomic power facility and before word of the mission hit the news services, he phoned to assure Falwell that the raid was purely defensive. Think of that! Is it not past wonder that a Zionist statesman who shrugs off the censure of the United Nations should be found explaining himself to an American fundamentalist preacher!

Begins administration has sponsored strict anticonversion legislation designed to restrain existing Christian groups and prohibit missionary activity. Falwell could not hand out a tract on the streets of Jerusalem without breaking one of Begins laws. The attitude of Zionism toward Christianity is expressed by Israel Zangwill: Beware of the Goyim (Gentile), his elders told Jacob, They are Goyim, foes of the faith. Beings of darkness, drunkards and bullies, Swift with the fist or the bludgeon. Many in species, but all engendered of God for our sins, And many and strange their idolatries. But the worst of the Goyim are the creatures called Christians.

We are not surprised to learn that Israeli officials are reported to look the other way when mobs harass and intimidate Christians. Begin would not cross the street to greet a Christian in Jerusalem; why does he go to such trouble to preserve the goodwill of one on the other side of the world? Begins motive for cultivating Falwell is no secret. Israel follows the advice of Ben Gurion that she should always have at least one world power to rely on, and America is it. Israel is under the Arab gun and cannot survive indefinitely without American support. Since the Arabs have the oil, the United States must often choose between Israeli interests and her own. Pro-Arab legislation is bitterly contested in Congress. (At this writing the proposed sale of AWAC planes to Saudi Arabia is under debate.) Begin depends on pro-Israel interests to lobby on his behalf, and he can recognize Falwells role as leader of the most powerful such bloc in America outside the Jewish community. Unconditional support for Israel is one of the planks in the Moral Majority platform. Begin despises the faith of the man he uses, and Falwell profits from the public notice of an important world figure. But why should Falwell, who crusades for evangelism and religious freedom in America, so fervently endorse a nation that falls just short of Russia in the suppression of Christianity? (Orthodox Jews are also reported to be repressed in Israel as they are in Russia!) The answer to this question is also the reason why this essay should be remembered.

A view of prophecy  Falwell advances the dispensational premillennial school of eschatology. This is to say that he believes that the New Testament answers to the Old, that modern Jews are the people of God first  the church second, and that modern Israel anticipates a thousand-year Jewish world empire with Jesus on a Jerusalem throne. Begins Israel, therefore, must be honored and protected by the church, Israels official hatred of Christ notwithstanding. Grace bows to race, faith to flesh.

Just as no one is more anti-Christian than a Zionist, no one is more pro-Israel than a dispensationalist. From the ranks of the latter, in fact, has come the International Christian Embassy in Jerusalem with branch offices in the U.S. and fourteen other countries. Embassy spokesman Jan Van Der Hoeven makes it his mission to persuade Jews to go and live in Israel and die for Jerusalem if necessary. If Begin would announce plans to build a Temple, dispensationalists in the West could be expected to finance it immediately.

Israel-the-key-to-prophecy is dogma for such denominational bodies as the Assemblies of God and Independent Baptists, and Messianic nationalism has its disciples everywhere. A storm of paperbacks hits with each political shift in the Middle East. Hal Lindsey in his vastly popular The Late Great Planet Earth (1970) and the recent The 1980s  Countdown to Armageddon says that an honest reading of Scripture leads to the assurance that we are in the last hours of this age. He promises that within forty years or so of 1948  the founding date of Israel, the following must take place: (1) the temple will be rebuilt and Mosaic worship resumed; (2) Russia will invade Israel and will be defeated miraculously by the returning Christ; and (3) the thousand-year kingdom will be established. The church is inconsequential in all this and will be removed before, during, or after the first seven tribulation years.

The Lindsey scenario is standard for radio and TV futurists. Jerry Falwell, Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Rex Humbard, Oral Roberts, and Billy Graham are joined by a host of lesser lights to fill the air with the word that modern Israel fulfills prophecy and if the Bible is true, Israel will never fall. In the minds of the watching and listening public, the credibility of the Bible is being tied to the political fate of an anti-Christian state. The most ambitious predictions are delivered with a hard-and-fast the Bible says!

Doubting the Bible  This confident futurism might be right or wrong. New it isnt. End-time experts have always been with us. In 1842 William Miller set the eastern America aboil with dispensational heat: I am satisfied that the end of the world is at hand. The evidence flows in from every quarter . . . (Quoted in Clara Endicott Sears, Days of Delusion (1924) pp. 35, 36). In 1843 believers were singing: We are living, we are dwelling In a grand and awful time; In an age on ages telling To be living is sublime. Hark the waking up of nations Gog and Magog to the fray; Hark! What soundeth? Is Creation Groaning for its latter day!?

Old prophecy books, out of print, pitiful, mildewed monuments to dead visions  gravestones for prophecy scholars long-since buried in the shroud of misbegotten charts, locked in the tomb of eschatological disgrace by their own keys. Their ghosts: cults. Their stepchildren: believers made doubters, unbelievers made cynical. The wonderful promise of our Lords return has become a joke to the enemies of the church. I recall colleagues at the university snickering that the prospect of an improbable event was as sure as the Second Coming. If Jesus does not follow Lindseys schedule, many intelligent, sensitive people will see it as proof that the Bible is not to be taken seriously. Who can blame them?

If Falwell and his tribe are right, it will make no difference that I am wrong. The presence of Jesus on the throne in Jerusalem will put me to silence. If they are wrong and Jesus coincidentally returns but refuses to follow the dispensational program, it will not be important that their eschatology misfired. If history repeats itself, however, and it turns out that the signs of His return existed only in well-meaning but misguided imaginations, it will again be tragically important that futurism has failed again.

Perhaps Christianity will be less a laughingstock in a few years if we can have it on record that Falwell and Lindsey represent a minority view of Gods future. God has one plan of salvation and one people, the body of Christ. The state of Israel hates our Lord and His Word, and her survival is not the credibility test of that Word. Remember.

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2000

This last post really disturbs me, for two reasons. One, its pretty confusing. And second, for its distortion of dispensationalism, and the writings of some named people. Maybe we need to have a "views of prophecy" thread or something.

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2000

IMO dispensationalism is a distortion of the Historical interpretation of Revelations.

For example: The little book in Revelation=The Bible being printed by Guttenberg, then latter distributed to the people by King James. The once restricted Bible has thus gone from being a Large Imprisoned book to a little book. Even to the point where it can now be place on a very small CD.

To others: Perhaps I raise to many questions on one thread. Guess it can be hard to follow.

BTW I looked up another verse: (Isa 49:6 KJV) "And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth."

(Isa 49:7 KJV) "Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee."

(Isa 49:8 KJV) "Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;"

Sounds Christian and colonizing to me.

covenant of the people, = beriyth:H1285 . . 'am:H5971...Britain?

covenant man, = beriyth 'iysh...British?

If you go to a modern Hebrew English Lexicon the word covenant is spelled brit, and the word man is spelled ish. Added together they spell British. Strange coincidence?

376. 'iysh, eesh; contr. for H582 [or perh. rather from an unused root mean. to be extant]; a man as an individual or a male person; often used as an adjunct to a more definite term (and in such cases frequently not expressed in translation):--also, another, any (man), a certain, + champion, consent, each, every (one), fellow, [foot-, husband-] man, (good-, great, mighty) man, he, high (degree), him (that is), husband, man [-kind], + none, one, people, person, + steward, what (man) soever, whoso (-ever), worthy. Comp. H802.

-- Anonymous, January 13, 2000

Mark,

I have never met a British-Israelist that was not dispensational. I've not met that many, but the ones I have met most cetrtainly were. Yes, I believe the linguistic similarities you see are indeed coincidental. I would recommend the book "The Plain Truth About Armstrongism" to you. It is out of print but you should be able to find it at any Bible College library. You may not be a follower of Armstrong but you are certain walking on the same ground.

Jon,

What was confusing about the article? I've read the books. What distortions?

-- Anonymous, January 13, 2000

Scott Sheridan,

If you know anything about HWA you should be able to see that he did not have any original ideas. Most of what he proposed was taken from other churches and touted as his teachings. Not terrible but not his own studies.

I have a newspaper in my possesion with headlines that read: Order of leadership,

God

Jesus Christ

Herbert W. Armstrong

--------------

You get my point.

Most people who understand the Angle Saxon/Israel message don't see any validity in Dispensationalism. IMO a historical view of the Revelations is the correct way to view things which must shortly come to pass. (Rev 1:1 KJV) "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

-- Anonymous, January 14, 2000

In answer to "Where did Israel go after their defeat at the hands of the Assyrians.

(2 Ki 17:23 KJV) "Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day."

(2 Ki 17:24 KJV) "And the king of Assyria brought men from Babylon, and from Cuthah, and from Ava, and from Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel: and they possessed Samaria, and dwelt in the cities thereof."

The following verses IMO describe Israel leaving captivity. Their King having passed on before them as in the following verse...(Ezek 17:22 KJV) "Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also take of the highest branch of the high cedar, and will set it; I will crop off from the top of his young twigs a tender one, and will plant it upon an high mountain and eminent:"

(Ezek 17:23 KJV) "In the mountain of the height of Israel will I plant it: and it shall bring forth boughs, and bear fruit, and be a goodly cedar: and under it shall dwell all fowl of every wing; in the shadow of the branches thereof shall they dwell."

Jesus mentioned this in a Kingdom parable...(Mark 4:32 KJV) "But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it."

(Micah 2:12 KJV) "I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men."

(Micah 2:13 KJV) "The breaker is come up before them: they have broken up, and have passed through the gate, and are gone out by it: and their king shall pass before them, and the LORD on the head of them."

And Israel passed through the mountain range...Caucasus? Is that why we are called Caucasian? A leap?

-- Anonymous, January 14, 2000

A MASSIVE leap. You are taking bits of prophecy and using them to stich together, from whole cloth, a fanciful tale of Israel becoming (eventually) Europeans. You are completely ignoring actual history. IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. The ten northern tribes were decimated by war and captivity, and what few of them were left were scattered among the people imported to the Holy Land by their conquerors.

Mark, this is getting pretty tiring. You seem to have decided what conclusion you want to come to, and then go in search of tiny pieces of Scripture that you can torture into saying what you want to hear. British Israelism is a bankrupt theory, and theology. There is no historical truth in it.

Christianity is a faith based on history. God created, man corrupted, God became man to redeem. The people we know topday as "the Jews" are the actual descendants of the ones in Jesus' day. White Anglo-Saxon Europeans are not.

Why is it not enough for you that we are redeemed by the blood of Jesus, brought into His family to live with Him forever? Why must you also try to torture Scripture to give yourself a heritage that does not belong to you?

-- Anonymous, January 14, 2000

Sam Loveall,

Would you do me a favor! Let me know of a Greek NT that does not read katapauo when speaking of Isaac. I must have left my Greek/English NT at my exwifes. Not saying you are wrong on this just want to confirm it.

(James 2:21 KJV) "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

(James 2:21 HG) . . abraam:G11 . pater:G3962 dikaioo:G1344 . ergon:G2041 . . . anaphero:G399 katapauo:G2664 . huios:G5207 . . thusiasterion:G2379

2664. katapauo, kat-ap-ow'-o; from G2596 and G3973; to settle down, i.e. (lit.) to colonize, or (fig.) to (cause to) desist:--cease, (give) rest (-rain).

As far as being saved and ignoring the Kingdom Message, I don't think so.

You said...

"Why must you also try to torture Scripture to give yourself a heritage that does not belong to you?"

If I am a Christian then that heritage is mine according to the Holy Word of God Almighty, the Great God of Israel.

(Eph 2:12 KJV) "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"

(Eph 2:13 KJV) "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."

So you see Sam, the Word of God states plainly that no matter what race I belong to I have an inheritance in Israel.

We are instructed to... "(Mat 6:33 KJV) "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

The Throne of the Lord exists today.

The Kingdom exists today.

Can you give me an explanation of the Kingdom of God? Don't use that "It is laid up in your hearts.", expanation. I want facts straight from the Word of God.

Do you seek the Kingdom of God? Or are you satisfied with..."I am saved so who cares about anything else. Just get me to heaven."

Love you man!

-- Anonymous, January 14, 2000

Mark,

You didn't ask me but James 2:21 from the Greek: Abraam ho pater hemon ouk ex ergon edikaiothe anenegkas Isaak ton huion autou epi to thusiasterion

The Greek font won't come thru on the post so it is English letters.

BTW, I did not accuse you of being an Armstrongite. But a lot of what you are stating is dealt with in the book I recommended. I agree that HWA had no original ideas. He got them from his wife, and she got most of hers from reading William Miller from the 1850's.

If you want to check it out, there is an online Greek NT at http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~fisher/gnt/chapters.html

I just found it and am impressed. However, if you do not know the Greek it won't do you much good I'm afraid.

-- Anonymous, January 14, 2000

Here's the address for an online interlinear.

http://www.biblestudytools.net/InterlinearBible/

-- Anonymous, January 14, 2000

Sam,

"Christianity is a faith based on history. God created, man corrupted, God became man to redeem. The people we know topday as "the Jews" are the actual descendants of the ones in Jesus' day. White Anglo-Saxon Europeans are not."

Christianity is not a faith based on history it is based on Jesus Christ...(Acts 20:21 KJV) "Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."

To whom did Jesus come to redeem? (Luke 24:21 KJV) "But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done."

The reason for the redemption was the fact that God had divorced Israel and Israel is the Bride of Christ. In order to take Israel back one had to die. And by that act of redemption salvation has come to all people.

As for...White Anglo-Saxon Europeans are not." My take on the "key of David". Rev 3:7. Let's look at David

(1 Sam 16:12 KJV) "And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the LORD said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he."

ruddy: 132. 'admoniy, ad-mo-nee', or (fully) 'admowniy, ad-mo-nee'; from H119; reddish (of the hair or the complexion):--red, ruddy.

H119: 119. 'adam, aw-dam'; to show blood in the face), i.e. flush or turn rosy:--be (dyed, made) red (ruddy).

Above is a discription of King David. Jesus is the son of David...(Mat 1:1 KJV) "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."

David was promised a place outside of Palestine for Israel...(2 Sam 7:10 KJV) "Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,"

David sat on the throne of the Lord...(1 Chr 29:23 KJV) "Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him."

God promised that Davids throne would last forever...(2 Sam 7:13 KJV) "He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever."

(2 Sam 7:14 KJV) "I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:"

(2 Sam 7:15 KJV) "But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee."

(2 Sam 7:16 KJV) "And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."

God promised that David would always have someone on that throne...(Jer 33:20 KJV) "Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;"

(Jer 33:21 KJV) "Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers."

Jesus Christ, The Son of David is to sit on that throne...(Luke 1:32 KJV) "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:"

One famous preacher was asked, "What did Jesus look like?"

"Well, he was swarthy, of a dark complexion, dark hair."

Which flies into the "tortured" face of Scripture. If Jesus was indeed the Son of David then he would have the characteristics of His father. (Mat 22:42 KJV) "Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David."

By the word of God I come to my conclusion of the description of Jesus. By myth, heresay, and ignorance of Scripture did the above, unnamed, preacher come to his conclusion as to the description of Jesus Christ. For further and present description of Jesus Christ, The God of Israel, go to Revelations.

(2 Tim 2:7 KJV) "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things."

(2 Tim 2:8 KJV) "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:"

-- Anonymous, January 15, 2000

Mark, I don't know of a Greek text which does NOT use the word ISAAK (2464) to talk about Isaac. I've looked through texts in several places since you asked, and I can't find any that don't. I don't know which Greel text you are using -- I don't know what the (HG) means in your posts. Can you enlighten me?

-- Anonymous, January 16, 2000

"So you see Sam, the Word of God states plainly that no matter what race I belong to I have an inheritance in Israel."

I agree. We, as Christians, have an inheritance from God, as spiritual children. But that's not what we're arguing here. You are taking the position that the 10 Lost Tribes made their way to Europe and became what we know as Caucasians. I, and others, are disputing that, from history and from the Bible.

-- Anonymous, January 16, 2000

"Christianity is not a faith based on history it is based on Jesus Christ...(Acts 20:21 KJV)"

You know what I meant. Christianity is what it is because God steped into history. Jesus, part of the triune God, became a man. he walked and talked with other people, in this time/space that we know. He lived, and died, on this earth, in this sphere of existence. He was risen from the dead and lived again, with us, in history. The truths of the Bible cannot be separated from the rest of the truths of history.

-- Anonymous, January 16, 2000

"To whom did Jesus come to redeem? (Luke 24:21 KJV) "But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done."

I guess if you ignore the totality of Scripture, you can prove just about everything. Don't leave these out:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"But AS MANY AS received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIS NAME, WHO WERE BORN, NOT OF BLOOD, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD." John 1:12-13

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL PEOPLES to Myself." John 12:32

etc., etc., etc.

The saved, the chosen ones, the people who inherit eternal life, come from all tribes and nations and tongues on earth. Jesus did come to redeem Israel, yes, as well as every other person who will receive His salvation.

-- Anonymous, January 16, 2000

Sorry for the following long quotation, but I wanted it all to be seen together.

As for "...White Anglo-Saxon Europeans are not." My take on the "key of David". Rev 3:7. Let's look at David (1 Sam 16:12 KJV) "And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the LORD said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he." ruddy: 132. 'admoniy, ad-mo-nee', or (fully) 'admowniy, ad-mo-nee'; from H119; reddish (of the hair or the complexion):--red, ruddy. H119: 119. 'adam, aw-dam'; to show blood in the face), i.e. flush or turn rosy:--be (dyed, made) red (ruddy). Above is a discription of King David. Jesus is the son of David... (Mat 1:1 KJV) "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." ... One famous preacher was asked, "What did Jesus look like?" "Well, he was swarthy, of a dark complexion, dark hair." Which flies into the "tortured" face of Scripture. If Jesus was indeed the Son of David then he would have the characteristics of His father. (Mat 22:42 KJV) "Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David." By the word of God I come to my conclusion of the description of Jesus. By myth, heresay, and ignorance of Scripture did the above, unnamed, preacher come to his conclusion as to the description of Jesus Christ.

Mark, I very rarely say what I'm about to say in any discussion that I'm trying to keep civil and reasonable, but . . .

This is just stupid. By this reasoning, all of David's descendants, no matter through which wife, no matter how many generations, no matter how many hundreds of years later, all have to look like David.

So, you reckon every one of the thousands of David's descendants up until the time of Christ looked just like he did?

The plain fact is that Jesus was a first century Jew, who would have shared characteristics of appearance with most other first century Jews. You are working very hard at making the case that Jesus looked like your average Anglo-Saxon, but your case has no standing in scripture or in history.

If yu are a believer, who has given himself to the lordship of Jesus, with all that entails, then accept your salvation, and quit trying to make Jesus look like you.

-- Anonymous, January 16, 2000

Sam,said..."The truths of the Bible cannot be separated from the rest of the truths of history."

Why does the Church take the position that Revelations is yet to be fulfilled in a 7 year future period? The little book of Revelations is descriptive of the Bible being held captive, mainly by the Roman Church, and Guttenberg came along, printed the book and latter King James helped to bring it to the people. My take.

"I guess if you ignore the totality of Scripture, you can prove just about everything. Don't leave these out:"

On the contrary...

(Isa 56:3 KJV) "Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree."

(Isa 56:4 KJV) "For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;"

(Isa 56:5 KJV) "Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off."

(Isa 56:6 KJV) "Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;"

(Isa 56:7 KJV) "Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people."

"Just plain Stupid!"

I've been called worse things than stupid.

(Est 8:17 KJV) "And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

"These people became Jews in the religious sense. As did the Khazars, many Ethiopians, etc. They picked up the Jewish religion. A religion of which Jesus had no good things to say.

I don't understand what the complete Key of David is. However it is in the Bible and that is what I have gathered to this point.

Isael is the Bride of Christ. Says so in Revelations and elswhere in the OT.

Read the description of Israel below.

Israel is described as a mallable pot. Judah is described as a broken pot.

(Jer 3:11 KJV) "And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous JUDAH."

(Jer 3:12 KJV) "Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever."

(Jer 3:13 KJV) "Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD."

It appears Israel "acknowledged thine iniquity,"

(Jer 3:25 KJV) "We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God."

(Jer 4:1 KJV) "If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove."

(Jer 3:14 KJV) "Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:"

Jews did not and do not today acknowledge there iniquity.

(1 Th 2:14 KJV) "For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:"

(1 Th 2:15 KJV) "Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:"the Jews "PLEASE NOT GOD,"...

(Jer 3:12 KJV) "Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever."(Jer 3:13 KJV) "Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD."

(Jer 3:14 KJV) "Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:"(Jer 3:15 KJV) "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding."

(Jer 18:1 KJV) "The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,"(Jer 18:2 KJV) "Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words."

(Jer 18:3 KJV) "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels."(Jer 18:4 KJV) "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."(Jer 18:5 KJV) "Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,"(Jer 18:6 KJV) "O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."(Jer 18:7 KJV) "At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;"(Jer 18:8 KJV) "If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them."(Jer 18:9 KJV) "And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;"(Jer 18:10 KJV) "If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."...

(Jer 19:7 KJV) "And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth."(Jer 19:8 KJV) "And I will make this city desolate, and an hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished and hiss because of all the plagues thereof."(Jer 19:9 KJV) "And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them."(Jer 19:10 KJV) "Then shalt thou break the bottle in the sight of the men that go with thee."(Jer 19:11 KJV) "And shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again: and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury."(Jer 19:12 KJV) "Thus will I do unto this place, saith the LORD, and to the inhabitants thereof, and even make this city as Tophet:"(Jer 19:13 KJV) "And the houses of Jerusalem, and the houses of the kings of Judah, shall be defiled as the place of Tophet, because of all the houses upon whose roofs they have burned incense unto all the host of heaven, and have poured out drink offerings unto other gods."

Israel mallable clay=Christian. Please God!

Judah broken broken vessel=Judaism. Please not God!

If you do not seperate the two in prophecy then you can't understand prophecy.

If you are Christian then you must be mallable.

One "educated" preacher, a child, said to me, "You presume to teach me? I was educated at Dallas Theological [Cemetary]."

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

Mark, Sam is right... your ramblings border on nonsense. Over and over I have tried to understand the way you think; but I just do not. You indicate that the church= Israel and they equal the bride of Christ. Judah are the modern Jews and they are evil and "has not pleased God" (I put your quotes in NIV- KJV is outdated). First of all your theology is wrong. Second they border antsemitism. Third they are weird, to say Jesus looked exactly like David is to make wild assumptions that have no ground in Biblical authority.

This whole discussion reminds me of the movie, "Invasion of the Body Snatchers".

Sorry for the straight forwardness.

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

Scott and all -

Just so you don't think I ran out on you --

The part of the post I said misrepresented was the bit about Hal Lindsey. Now I will admit that Hal is a pop philosopher, and his books are for general consumption. But I don't recall that he ever mentions the Church and Israel being the same thing. In "Late Great Planet Earth" I know for sure he separates the two. That actually is one of the points of dispensationalism: the Church is the Church, and the Jews are the Jews. Each has different and unique promises which for the most part cannot be applied to the other. I know for a fact that Hal believes that the Jews currently living in Israel are physically descendants of the original Jewish nation. That is in his books. I don't necessarily agree with his conclusions, but I do know he separates the Church from Israel. I guess its no big deal (Hal's a big boy and can stand up for himself) but since I did read most of his books, I thought I'd throw in a comment.

As for Falwell and others, I tend to ignore them, so I cannot answer there.

For the record, I am seriously anti-British-Israelism. I hold that it is totally non-biblical.

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

Mark, Of the things you did wrong in the last post, the two I want to address are these:

1) I didn't call you stupid. I said your argument was stupid -- the one about Jesus being fair skinned and ruddy complected, just because David may have some lighter than many (but certainly not all) Jews of his day. And it is. The argument, I mean. Stupid.

2) You didn't address the David/Jesus appearance thing at all. Can I take it to mean that you have no answer, other than a strong "Oh yes he was!"?

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

Sam,said..."The truths of the Bible cannot be separated from the rest of the truths of history." Why does the Church take the position that Revelations is yet to be fulfilled in a 7 year future period? The little book of Revelations is descriptive of the Bible being held captive, mainly by the Roman Church, and Guttenberg came along, printed the book and latter King James helped to bring it to the people. My take. 

You keep arguing things Im not saying. It doesnt help.

To say that all the of book of Revelation hasnt happened yet is NOT to take the truths of Christianity out of history. In fact, it does just the opposite. We expect Revelation things to happen BECAUSE we have seen the rest of the Scriptures happen in the real world. Since the REST of Scripture happened in the real world, we expect the last bits to happen there as well, whenever they come around.

You in fact support my argument against you. The physical, time- related truths of the Bible happened, are happening, and will happen in our real world, to real people in real places. The migration of the ten tribes to Europe did not. It isnt history. It didnt happen.

The whole field of apologetics and evidences is based on the fact that we find Biblical truth in physical history.

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

So let me get this straight, Mark. You are saying that the Jews today are NOT the descendants of any of the tribes of Israel. But somehow they looked and acted so much like them, adopted their customs and ways and manners, even their religion, so much so that none of the Jews noticed these "impostors" infiltrating them and living among them? (Yet somehow the "real" descendants looked quite different, more like Europeans?) And where, pray tell, did the real two tribes of the south, Judah and Benjamin, disappear to? And does Paul lie when he says he is a descendant of that very tribe of Benjamin?

Further, if the ten tribes of the north (the more faithless of the two factions -- it seems very strange to me that they should inherit the promise) all picked up and moved north and became the English people, we would expect to only find remnants of Judah, Benjamin and Levi left in Palestine at the time of Christ. If that is so, what happened to Anna? "There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher" (Luke 2:36). Oops! Seems somebody got left behind!

Lets make this easy. Paul says, in Romans 11:1, "I ask then: Did God reject his people?" In order that you may be sure what people He is speaking about and get the full context, lets look at the verse immediately before, the last verse of the chapter ten, and read into the 11th chapter. "But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people. I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I AM AN ISRAELITE MYSELF!" Paul is saying in no uncertain terms that he is an Israelite. Is he therefore not a Jew? Look now at the 22nd chapter of Acts. Paul is in custody by the Roman governor, and he has been given permission to address a turbulent Jewish crowd in self-defense. What are his opening words, in verse three? "I AM A JEW!"

Therefore in Bible language (let us call Bible things by Bible names), an Israelite may be a Jew, and a Jew may be an Israelite. An Israelite is a descendant of Israel, not just a descendant of one of the ten tribes of the nation of Israel (that should be fairly obvious). A Jew is a descendant of Judah, who is a descendant of Israel, and hence also an Israelite.

Since Paul said he was a Jew, and also said he was an Israelite; since the two are equivalent terms in Bible language, therefore when Paul says in Romans 11:1, "Did God reject his people? By no means!" he is talking about the Jews, the Jews he was a part of, the Jews that were in Palestine at that time, the Jews that were dispersed by Rome, the Jews that sojourned in the world for 1,878 years, the Jews that God has miraculously preserved as a distinct people even through that awesome length of time and the horrible attempts of wicked men to exterminate them, the Jews that have been returning to the Land since 1948.

God has not rejected His people, He has not rejected the Israelites, HE HAS NOT REJECTED THE JEWS. They are still very much His chosen people.

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

John Wilson,

"Mark. You are saying that the Jews today are NOT the descendants of any of the tribes of Israel."

I didn't say it, Jesus did. (John 10:26 KJV) "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."

(John 10:27 KJV) "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

Who are the sheep? Israel.

(Jer 23:1 KJV) "Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD."

(Jer 23:2 KJV) "Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD."

Who was prophesied to become Christian? Israel.

(Hosea 1:10 KJV) "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God."

Why are there representatives of the other ten tribes in Judah. Let the Word of God answer?

(2 Chr 11:13 KJV) "And the priests and the Levites that were in all Israel resorted to him out of all their coasts."

(2 Chr 11:14 KJV) "For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD:"

(2 Chr 11:15 KJV) "And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made."

(2 Chr 11:16 KJV) "And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers."

(2 Chr 11:17 KJV) "So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon."

"Further, if the ten tribes of the north (the more faithless of the two factions -- it seems very strange to me that they should inherit the promise)"

If you had read my previous post without anger you would have read...(Jer 3:11 KJV) "And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah."

(Jer 3:12 KJV) "Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever."

So contrary to your opinion, based on what you were taught perhaps, the word of God says that Judah was more treacherous than Israel.

What about Benjamin?

(1 Ki 11:36 KJV) "And unto his son will I give one tribe,(Benjamin) that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there."

What is a light in Bible parlance but a teacher of truth. Paul was a Benjamite. A Judean.

What happened to Benjamin? (Jer 6:1 KJV) "O ye children of Benjamin, gather yourselves to flee out of the midst of Jerusalem, and blow the trumpet in Tekoa, and set up a sign of fire in Bethhaccerem: for evil appeareth out of the north, and great destruction."

Jesus predicted this destruction of Jerusalem. Benjamin fled because they had received the Word of God. The Jews sought to kill Jesus. (John 7:1 KJV) "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him."

Notice, "Jesus walked in Galilee:", because the Jews wanted to kill him. Do you understand.

Have the Jews ever not considered themselves not Jews. No!

But as stated above, (Hosea 1:10 KJV) "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God."

Israel had lost there way and identity. That was Gods doing. But when Jesus arrived they said..."I will go and return to my first husband;" (Hosea 2:6 KJV) "Therefore, behold, I will hedge up thy way with thorns, and make a wall, that she shall not find her paths."

(Hosea 2:7 KJV) "And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find them: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now."

Israel will come to understand that they are the Stone Kingdom as talked about in Daniel. Paul said so in Romans. (Rom 11:25 KJV) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2000

I cannot see what the importance of any of this thread is. I do not believe in British-Israelism for the facts dont support it. But even if it was correct, WHAT DOES IT MATTER? Paul deals with this foolish way of thinking in Romans. God used the Hebrews to bring about His eternal plan which was Jesus Christ dying for the sins of the world. He established (note the past-tense) His Kingdom which is the Church. The TRUE Israel, is the Christian, whether he be Jewish or Gentile, and yes Mark, Jewish means Israelite as well. Others have made that perfectly clear. We are saved by faith, not flesh. By Grace not race. And that goes for those of Hebrew descent as well. It is only those who have the FAITH of Abraham that will be saved.

Pauls theme in Romans is found in 2:11, For there is no partiality with God. Evidently there was a problem between the Hebrew Christians and the Gentile Christians. This can be seen from Pauls emphasis on every man or all men. Notice this theme in the following verses:

1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 2:6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 2:9-11 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. 3:9-12 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE." 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 14:11 For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

As well as Gal 3:28 & 29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

If a Jew wants to become part of the Kingdom, he must be born again. Thats exactly what Jesus told a Jew in John 3. To be born again is to be born of water and Spirit and we see that happening when someone obeys Acts 2:38 when they are baptized (water) and given the gift of the Holy Spirit. The ONLY thing special about the Jews under the new covenant is that they WERE the people thru whom all mankind can be saved, because Jesus was a Jew.

I also reject dispensationalism because they do not have a clue as to what the kingdom is and also teach (not in these words) that Jesus failed to accomplish His purpose which was to establish a physical kingdom here on earth but the Jews rejected it so He had to go to plan B, which is the Church. When in reality, the Church is what He came to establish. People are saved through the Church (you know what I mean here). It is the Church that is the Bride of Christ. When He returns it will be for His Bride. If Jews are part of the bride, by being born again, great. But being of Hebrew descent has no distinction to it at all. Paul said so.

Gotta go. Work to do.

-- Anonymous, January 18, 2000

It's difficult to be brief in these discussions but I'll try.

1) God seperated Israel from Judah. That is a fact.

2) Isael was to become the Top of the Mountains in the last days.

3) Israel was to be inherit and establish the earth...(Isa 49:8 KJV) "Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;"

And much more but to be brief...

Below is a from a web page by some of those that I speak. (if your're interested in the URL, email me.) Don't call me anti anything. Christians should search out the people they support lest they find themselves supporting such idiocy as donating time and money to build some foolish TEMPLE in Jerusalem. (2 Cor 5:17 KJV) "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." "You, christians, are the Temple."

There is a reason Jesus cursed the fig tree. He wasn't out to get the tree. It was symbolic of the Broken Vessel people as mentioned in one of the above posts. (Mat 21:19 KJV) "And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away." The web page below demonstrates their fruitlessness.

----------------------------

THE WEB PAGE

Christianity is a sickening failure. Because of its vomitous and ghoulish worship of the false god, Yeshu'a / Jesus of Nazareth, the uniquely bequeathed child-sacrifice proceeding from YHWH as both sin offering and priestly meal, the Great Blood Sacrifice, tragic relic of fallen belief and practice from a long disheartening era fanatically upholding accusatory gods whose specific needs are central to blood worship and sacrificial restitution; Yeshu'a, the only blasphemous Jew worshipped as a god, the only self-coronated claimant to the throne in the Temple of Jerusalem, the only Jew who made himself a god, the true Antichrist, the bright and fallen morning star, the so-called sinless one who becomes all and every sin, the Man of Sin, Son of Perdition, the only begotten child of the accusatory YHWH, YHWH_SATAN; Yeshu'a, the vicarious human sacrifice lifted-up to be eaten and consumed, replete with the mysteriously unnatural compulsion to do so (as if spirituality and love can be realized and obtained through ritual cannibalism); and because of the teachings and influence of the false prophet, Paul, and his overwhelming perpetration of the cult of Sin which inevitably requires such an ultimate sacrifice (like humanity), Christianity is a sickening, revolting, failure. There are no words, as if a mystery cloaking easy definition, to describe the horror of this belief except SATAN.

Because of its corruption and tragic manipulation of LOVE (or GOD), as being the attainable or communicable result of a perfected form of sacrificial blood restitution, preceded by a perpetually occurring admission of guilt for the in utero inherited accusation of Sin, Christianity is one of the cruelest belief systems to ever befall the development of each subjected newborn child, for it claims (or teases) to be Love unconditional, yet is a seduction that leads one during the course of their life through a psychologically debilitating wilderness crowned with near-fatal thorns and epistles, anti-expectations and otiose obliquities howling from the wastes of the Pauline desert, desiccated Eden, deviations from sound thinking to instead applaud circular arguments and rituals in futility, spell- binding theatrics and exchanges that steals one's vision and spiritual sanity far away from the ONE TRUE GOD of Yis_ra'EL, 'ELOHIM*'AH_VAH.

Addressing the matter simply and succinctly -- There is no such thing as blood-guiltiness, or of a payment in blood that satisfies it, or of an actual God that accuses you of such or is debauched enough to need spilled blood and the wafting scent of charred flesh to set you free. The magnitude of the Universe, both inner and outer, should have alerted you by now that the TRUE GOD is way beyond this pathetic understanding of ancient fears and remedies. And because of these otherwise easily accessible revelations, the Christian / Biblical story is completely invalidated from top to bottom. There is no saving grace for any of it. Let it go. You are free and always have been except for this unnatural preference for a penitentiary for a crime that was never committed in a cell whose door was never locked. Go. While most of you are truly well meaning people who hope the best for your children and the world in general, this easily pulled-off deception you have allowed to enter into you, to commune with you without challenge, does not speak well of your desire to lead the world as if in other's eyes you are of sound mind and see more clearly than they do when it is obvious because of this laxity you most certainly do not.

YES, IN THAT WE CHALLENGE THE FALSE GODS AND DESTRUCTIVE TEACHINGS OF THE WORLD'S RELIGIONS, HARSH YET NECESSARY REVELATIONS PROMPTING THE LESSER MINDS TO EXPEDIENTLY ADJOURN AND ACCUSE OUR DECLARATION AS INTOLERANT HATE, IT IS FOR THEM THE ONLY RECOURSE TO STAND AND DECLARE BEFORE THE WORLD THAT WE ARE ITS ANTICHRIST.

BE THAT AS IT MAY, WE ARE STILL THE MESSIAH.

--------------------

And that is a sample of the people whom Christians call, The Chosen of God, While God calls them the rejected, Fruitless, "of your father the devil" (John 8:44 KJV) "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

(John 8:45 KJV) "And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not."

Take care.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

Mark is the above post, from a Jewish site or a satanic occult site? Please give us more detail.

Sam is right in what he says, any Jew or Gentile who has not Christ as their personal Lord and Savior will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Period. As far as the Temple, I do not and would not support such a building with my money, but I do see why people both Jews and Christians would like to see it built. For the Jew it would mean that their old system of animal sacrifice would begin again, to the Christian it would mean to usher in the rapture and tribulation. If indeed such a temple arose, it would definately symbolize that the end of the world as we know it is at hand and a new is coming.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

God has ONE people, the Church. The True Israel/Jew is the Christian. The Kingdom is the Church. The body of the Christian is the Temple. Why would we look to Jerusalem for a Temple to be built as an indication that the Lord will soon return? The modern day nation of Israel wants nothing to do with restoring a sacrificial system. They are a people of the Talmud, not the Old Testament. THEY ARE NOT A COVENANT PEOPLE! Only those in Christ have a covenant with God.

First, WW3 would start with the destruction of the Mosque of Omar which sits on the Temple mount. Second, the animal rights activists would not sit still for the sacrifices to be reinstituted. Third, Explain to me where the "rapture" is in Scripture. And fourth, the "great tribulation" Jesus spoke of in Mt 24 was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Jesus said there would be no signs before he came so let's quit trying to act like we know more than He does.

BTW, what modern day "Jew" can trace his lineage back to Abraham? I once heard a Rabbi asked on a Sunday morning talk show "Who is a Jew?" His answer was, and this is a quote, "Uh, I guess anyone who says they are." And just for anyone who might be overly PC, I am not anti-Semitic. I would just hate for someone to go to Hell thinking he wasn't because he was of the Hebrew race. God only has one people, and it is the Church.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

Gosh, Mark, it's a shame about all those Judah people being "unblessed" by God's turning all the rewards over to Israel. I guess that means that David was on of the "unblessed." Being of the line of Judah and all. And all those other folks who were good enough to be in the lineage of Jesus.

Ya know, I guess that would mean that JESUS, too, was "unblessed." Being from the line of Judah and all.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

"And that is a sample of the people whom Christians call, The Chosen of God,"

what you're saying here, Mark, is that if we can find any publication or example of what we would call a "Jew" saying bad things about Christianity, then that means all Jews are evil and cut off from God.

So if we find, say, an anglo-saxon male saying the same kinds of thigns, we can assume that all anglo-saxon males are evil and cut off from God? How about if we find someone named "Mark", or with the last name "Hillyard?" how 'bout if we find any ancestor or relative of yours, who doesn't honor Christ, no matter how distant the relation, then we can assume that YOU don't?

To find an example of a bad person in a large group, and then to declare that therefore the whole group is bad, is silly. This argument has no validity.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

Scott, let us stick to the thread. Although I completely disagree with your theology, the response that I gave to Mark was not escatology but his reference to the Temple. And personally I would guess that our generation or the next would see a physical Temple in Jerusalem. As for the Jews not wanting the establishment of a Temple... Scott obviously you have not researched this topic. There are many orthodox groups within Israel who seek this very thing. In fact a group often tries to carry the conrestone for the new Temple into the city, but the police will not allow them due to the Islamics. Any way enough of that- if you choose to start another thread on this topic- go for it.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

Mr. Kelley,

I've read several of your other posts and as touching salvation, I do not believe that you and I are not to far off - if any.

I think I was staying with the thread, for even if Mark were right about BRitish-Israelism (which he is not), so what? God has one people - the Church. The only people I know of wanting to re-build the Temple are dispensationalists. I have heard for 20 years (am I really that old?) about how stone from Bedford, IN is being shipped to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple. All talk. The people in modern day Israel are Talmudic Jews. That is a far cry from the people we see in the NT 2000 years ago.

-- Anonymous, January 20, 2000

"Gosh, Mark, it's a shame about all those Judah people being "unblessed" by God's turning all the rewards over to Israel."

As you can see from the Book of Revelations, Juda is also listed. I am not saying all Juda is unblessed, etc. Jews for Jesus, Christian Jew Hour. There are many Jews who have turned to Jesus Christ.

Jesus had a constant battle with the Jews...(John 7:1 KJV) "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him."

On the Christain Jew hour I heard them say that Abraham was the first Jew. When I made the point that Abraham was not even an Isralite they acknowledge their mistake. There could not have been any Jews (3064. Yehuwdiy, yeh-hoo-dee'; patron. from H3063; a Jehudite (i.e. Judaite or Jew), or desc. of Jehudah (i.e. Judah):--Jew.) until Judah had some children in order to begin the Tribe of Judah.

Here is an interesting bite on the descendants of Judah...(Gen 38:26 KJV) "And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more."

(Gen 38:27 KJV) "And it came to pass in the time of her travail, that, behold, twins were in her womb."

(Gen 38:28 KJV) "And it came to pass, when she travailed, that the one put out his hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first."

(Gen 38:29 KJV) "And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? this breach be upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez."

(Gen 38:30 KJV) "And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah."

And remember that Judah, through the House of David was to sit on the throne of the Lord...(1 Chr 29:23 KJV) "Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him."

(Gen 49:10 KJV) "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be."

(1 Chr 5:2 KJV) "For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's:)"

And as I stated before, the throne was to continue forever, and Jesus is to take that throne as promised...(Luke 1:32 KJV) "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:"

(Luke 1:33 KJV) "And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

And notice he "shall reign over the house of Jacob forever;". God was married to Israel, including Judah and that is the Bride according to Revelations.

I understand it is difficult to seperate Israel and Jews/Judah. But if any are interested in studying prophecy you have to understand the House of Judah, the House of Israel, the House of David and the faction of Judah that became The Broken Vessel, The Unfruitful Fig Tree.

I asked a preacher why he never gave sermons on prophecy. His answer was, "Because I don't understand it."

IMO it is the understanding of the difference between the above mentioned houses that will lead us all into a better understanding of what is going on in this world with re: to prophecy.

I am not a Jew hater etc. I think it is important to understand the difference and for Christians to stop giving over to the idea that the Jews are the chosen of God. The Word of God says...(1 Pet 2:9 KJV) "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

And God stated this when he set up the Kingdom...(Exo 19:5 KJV) "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:"

(Exo 19:6 KJV) "And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

(Mat 13:44 KJV) "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field."

TREASURE...ISRAEL

FIELD...WORLD

MAN HATH FOUND...JESUS

SELLETH ALL...JESUS AND HIS DEATH FOR THE REDEMPTION OF HIS HIDDEN TREASURE.

AMEN.

I enjoy cyber talking with you.

(Mal 3:16 KJV) "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name."

-- Anonymous, January 21, 2000

"Mark is the above post, from a Jewish site or a satanic occult site? Please give us more detail."

It is a Jewish site. However they dislike followers of Judaism, Christians and Islam. Probably any other religion except theirs.

Sorry. I hesitate to post the web page info because these people are not very nice. A while ago I asked them a political question and it turned into a nasty confrontation. They kept saying over and over, "Jesus is the ANTICHRIST". They concluded that my way of thinking "would get me killed." I saved the message. I was totally flabbergasted by their response since they preach LOVE on their webpage.

If you want to visit the site I'll be glad to email a link but I don't want to start a fight with these guys.

foster@inreach.com is my email #.

Take care!

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2000

Mark please email me the link which you talk about. Thank You . Anthony

-- Anonymous, January 22, 2000