Associates just phoned from South Dakota and told me they would be arriving much later because of major Y2K shutdown of FAA computer system. Entire East Coast grid down!!!!!They will call later and update me. Also went to bank this morning and ATM was down. Asked teller why and she said many problems all over this morning.....interesting. I will check in later...This thing isn't over and any of you polly's that think it is are bigger fools that I was made out to be by preparing last year. Jim

-- Jim Torrez (jimtorrez21@homail.com), January 06, 2000

Answers

Thanks for the update; please post more info as you get it. It would be helpful, for example, to know which bank you're talking about, and whether it was ONLY their own ATM's, or possibly some larger network.

Thanks Ed

-- Ed Yourdon (ed@yourdon.com), January 06, 2000.

WBZ) Air traffic up and down the East Coast is snarled today, due to a computer glitch at the F.A.A. Center in Leesburg, Virginia. Hundreds of flights are affected, in and out of airports in Washington D.C., New York City, and Philadelphia. The problem is also causing delays for many travelers with southbound flights out of Logan Airport in Boston. F.A.A. officials say they've switched to a backup computer system for now, and it will take several hours to get things back to normal.

www.wbz.com

-- L (a@friend.com), January 06, 2000.

The story is on CNN right now with a big disclaimer at bottom of screen saying it is not a Y2k problem. I am getting sick of this disclaimer.

-- Tomas (timbereyes@usa.net), January 06, 2000.

Sorry Ed....the name of the bank is First National Bank of North East (Maryland). The teller (don't recall her name) wasn't specific and told me that things are a mess everywhere this morning...that is all I know. I am on pretty good terms with this bak so I didn't push it. They treat me very well...As soon as I hear something from my associates in Sioux Falls South Dakota, I will post back.

-- Jim Torrez (jimtorrez21@hotmail.com), January 06, 2000.

I would just like to point out that the FAA has been having problems with delayed flights all year. This is not new. Also, a 90 minute delay does not make for a collapse in Western Civilization even if it is y2k related. I prepped as much as anyone but I have to admit that we are starting to look pathetic as we eagerly and hopefully hang on each "possible" y2k problem and react joyously to any disaster around the world.

I agree that vigilance and research is necessary but it is not about vindicating us or proving we were right. Let's not get giddy over potential human pain and problems.

-- JoseMiami (caris@prodigy.net), January 06, 2000.

CNN just annoucned that this FAA computer problem is fixed.

-- tomas (timbereyes@usa.net), January 06, 2000.

Update on the ATC errors reported by FAA in Leesburg:

Actually, the errors were not as origonally reported with the systems controlling the air traffic control patterns. All planes were placed in hold patterns to facilitate major CHEMTRAIL operations kicking off over the eastern seaboard, specifically NYC, PHI, DCA/IAD and BWI vectors.

-- Jim Duncan (jduncan@attglobal.net), January 06, 2000.

When I lived in Chicago the FAA computer system serving O'Hare broke down frequently. Forty year-old computers were being used, and it wouldn't surprise me if the FAA still is using them. Thinking these were caused by Y2K problems may be stretching it.

-- haha (haha@haha.com), January 06, 2000.

Appendix A --- Partial Listing of Major ATC Equipment Outages September 12, 1994 - June 6, 1995 Date ARTCC Event Duration Flight Operational Delays Errors Sep. 12, 1994 Chicago Power Failure 1 hr 15 min 433 0 Apr. 6, 1995 New York Power Failure 36 min 189 0 May 17, 1995 Chicago Computer Problem 1 hr 5 min 234 0 May 25, 1995 New York Power Failure 5 hrs 49 min 485 0 June 6, 1995 Washington Computer Problem 40 hrs 59 min 1 0 July 17, 1995 Chicago Computer Problem 44 min 161 0 July 19, 1995 Fort Worth Computer Problem 31 min 6 0 July 23, 1995 Chicago Computer Problem 25 min 28 0 July 24, 1995 Chicago Computer Problem 122 hrs 34 min 42 0 Aug. 9,1995 Oakland Power Failure 1 hr 18 min 333 1 Sep. 12, 1995 Chicago Computer Problem 20 hrs 46 min 83 0 http://www.itsasafety.org/Publictn/1996/SIR9601.pdf

-- John H Krempasky (johnk@dmv.com), January 06, 2000.

Great. I have to fly from Baltimore to Providence tomorrow and then back again on Saturday. Then the following week I have to fly from Reagan National to Charlotte... Should have bought a horse...

-- Libby Alexander (libbyalex@aol.com), January 06, 2000.

Apologies about the formatting...let me try again..

Appendix A --- Partial Listing of Major ATC Equipment Outages September 12, 1994 - June 6, 1995 Date ARTCC Event Duration Flight Operational Delays Errors Sep. 12, 1994 Chicago Power Failure 1 hr 15 min 433 0 Apr. 6, 1995 New York Power Failure 36 min 189 0 May 17, 1995 Chicago Computer Problem 1 hr 5 min 234 0 May 25, 1995 New York Power Failure 5 hrs 49 min 485 0 June 6, 1995 Washington Computer Problem 40 hrs 59 min 1 0 July 17, 1995 Chicago Computer Problem 44 min 161 0 July 19, 1995 Fort Worth Computer Problem 31 min 6 0 July 23, 1995 Chicago Computer Problem 25 min 28 0 July 24, 1995 Chicago Computer Problem 122 hrs 34 min 42 0 Aug. 9,1995 Oakland Power Failure 1 hr 18 min 333 1 Sep. 12, 1995 Chicago Computer Problem 20 hrs 46 min 83 0

http://www.itsasafety.org/Publictn/1996/SIR9601.pdf

-- John H Krempasky (johnk@dmv.com), January 06, 2000.

Aaargh..well, it's nicely formatted at the bottom of the link I gave...I have enough trouble getting stuff done as it is, I don't have the time to go through the gyrations of getting that formatted for posting here properly..

My apologies :-)

-- John H Krempasky (johnk@dmv.com), January 06, 2000.

JOhn--Then quit posting here!

-- Swampthing (in@the.swamp), January 06, 2000.

As an FAA contractor, and a frequent business traveller, I'm finding it hard to get real worked up over a 90 minute delay in the Boston- Washington corridor. It is, sadly, not an uncommon occurrence. While it does speak to systemic weaknesses in ATC, it does not necessarily point the finger at Y2K. We all need to step back from this "Y2K until proven innocent" mentality.

Let's see when they get it fixed, then see what the root cause was.

-- Craig Kenneth Bryant (ckbryant@mindspring.com), January 06, 2000.

Lurk mode off -

FAA computers failed many times last year because they were trying to upgrade to Y2K compliant systems, which were cranky and crashed all the time. I recall O'Hare had to change back to the old non- compliant program for a time while programmers tried to get the new one to work. Similar problems in Dulles, San Francisco, LA, etc.

They were discussed on this forum as Y2K problems occuring early, because the Y2K fixes were "slammed into production" without adequate testing (borrowing terminology from Cory). Check out old threads for "FAA" and "air traffic control".

This is a continuing problem, and I for one will not fly anywhere for a couple of months. And, I liked to fly until now. Go ahead, call me a tinfoil doomer.

Lurk mode on -

-- Margaret J (janssm@aol.com), January 06, 2000.

John, Thank you for the post. Oh, Swampthing...was that really called for? Maybe the Swampgas clouded your thinking this morning...John was trying to be helpful.

-- Dee (T1Colt556@aol.com), January 06, 2000.

There's a lot of denial going on here, which is pretty surprising to say the least. Yes, this is a Y2K problem. It is described as such in the title. If you think it's something other than Y2K, you're just in denial.

-- (rob231@hreftig.org), January 06, 2000.

I'd love if people could show the integrity to followup their posts and tell us when the reported problems STOP, and what knock on (aka cascade) effects they had.

Still waiting to see a non-isolated incident. Starting to read some real eagerness, bordering on desparation, in some of these reports. We've never needed hyperbole, we need it even less right now. :(

-- Servant (public_service@yahoo.com), January 06, 2000.

Krimpassky has been taunting every failure posted on this forum for the last week, as chicken-little-shit, and proof that "doomers" are desperate. Now, it seems ... is the wind changing, John, and your setting your sails again? Talk about a "have to be right" syndrome.

-- Please Just (get@a.spine), January 06, 2000.

-- Jim Duncan (jduncan@attglobal.net), January 06, 2000., Perhaps you could tell us what they are spraying, and why, since you seem to know so much.

-- jumpoff joe a.k.a. Al K. Lloyd (jumpoff@ekoweb.net), January 06, 2000.

Please,

I simply posted a PARTIAL list of major regional air traffic control center outages from late 1994 to early 1995 resulting in thousands of major travel delays.

I didn't even comment; how is that taunting? :-)

-- John H Krempasky (johnk@dmv.com), January 06, 2000.

Give John some slack. He's a newbie without the knowledge of those who have been following the FAA delima for the past couple of years.

Thanks Margaret!

Yes...we all know that it can't be Y2k because, regardless of warnings from IBM that the FAA should upgrade their hardware because it could NOT be made compliant and the fact that they spent YEARS having difficulty implementing their NEW system...it didn't matter...

...Jane Garvey, the computer whiz she is, SAID the FAA was compliant.

I don't care anymore if it's openly attributable to "Y2k", caused by a problem because tasks were moved to "compliant" systems, etc. I'm looking at the big picture to see if there is a degradation of the systems.

For me, Y2k is a huge situation containing many variables.

We've seen the largest, worldwide software project in history recently implemented on multiple platforms and systems...which handle every kind of task imaginable.

Makes you go hummm...

Mike

============================================================

-- Mike Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), January 06, 2000.

Well, I have an uncle (since retired for quite a while, however) who was responsible for radar operations and data at Leesburg, National Airport, etc. I've actually sat and played with the radar screens (I only crashed a couple planes into each other, though I tried for more.) (Note: Seriously, I wasn't in ATC goofing with stuff, just at the radar installation itself, where they have a screen where you can look at aircraft and data but don't actually control anything, before I get flamed :-)

One reason he retired (a bit earlier than he had to) is that the stress was going to kill him. He actually slept at the radars, things were so bad. The FAA was the world's largest consumer of vacuum tubes in the early 90s, wasn't it?

I've been well aware of the fiasco that has been the FAA computer system for many years. The FAA system is more EVERYTHING-non- compliant than Y2K non-compliant, really.

ARTCC computers were having major failures every week for a stretch in 94/95..was that Y2K?

-- John H Krempasky (johnk@dmv.com), January 06, 2000.

JoseMiami:

I'm with you.

Do you know what the problem here is? Most of us doomers are a bunch of amateurs when it comes to using scientific methods to arrive at conclusions. Look guys, we used the "belive the experts blindly" approach and we bombed out, royally. So lets stop re-hashing the same old tired arguments without subjecting them to some scrutiny.

I'm a doomer and sliently hoped the world would be shaken at its foundations for a few weeks because of the "Different stmuli, Different response" theory. Best that could have happened was that the wester world would have been shaken out of its lust for more and more - a, la David Suzuki. Well it aint gonna happen. Ok, I can live with that and I've got enough variatey in my stockpile to keep me eating the way I used to for 6 months or so.

But now we are into figuring out where this beast called y2k went and hid and lets not predict this using the same flawed approach we used pre y2k. Lets remember those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it.

So from another post, for example, we have the following said:

During the conference, a representative of the U.S. Small Business Administration (SBA) said there are 24 million small businesses in this country, with "small business" being defined as any company with 500 employees or less. When we reach January 2000, according to the SBA, approximately 8 million of these small businesses will be fully ready for Y2K, 8 million will have done enough repair work to muddle through, and 8 million will have done nothing to address the problem and will be at risk of failure.

Ok lets pick this appart rather than swallow it whole blindly and choke on it again later. I submit the following:

The 8m that will be ready probably have between 20-500 employees and therefore use a serious number of IT systems such that failure would cause a sever problem which is why they have prepared.

The 8m that will muddle through probably have between 3-20 employees and again will be ok since they probably can resort to manual payrolls etc. and "muddle through" as was suggested.

The 8m that did nothing probably have between 1-2 employees and are home based businesses (they are included in these stats) that basically have a PC with the usual suite of e-mail etc. and can fix all that quickly if it fails, i.e. they will obviously be in FOF mode (easily running on manual mode until failuers are fixed), but I am willing to bet that not one of those "businesses" will go bankrupt because of y2k because the just don't have "mission critical" applications that affect hundreads or thousands of customers. Those that do have failuers (because not all 8m will) will just have a bit of trouble putting out reports, letters and the like for a few days till they fix the PC, software etc. or just buy another one and get on with life.

So lets not get all fired up about these "small businesses" causing massive unemployement etc.

Time for the doomers to wake up a bit and realize, it will not be death by a thousand knives, but sort of like being eaten alive by a thousand ducks. It sure going to feel bad while they try, but it just aint going to happen in the end.

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_rings.side), January 06, 2000.

Interested Spectator .... Your 8 million did this and 8 million did that are only GUESSES . Why keep posting them with the facts ? I'm really getting tired of your polly BSing . Give it a REST !! Eagle

-- Hal Walker (e999eagle@freewwweb.com), January 06, 2000.

Interested Spectator,

Bingo!

Ya hit the nail on the head...way back in January '99, I ran across a VERY interesting and savvy mother of four at our Homeschooling Association. In her opinion, one of the possibilities for Y2K was that in subtle ways TPTB would increase the tension surrounding the issue through misleading press stories and statistics while continuing to pooh pooh the anticipated "severity" of the situation. The goal was to cause the Doomers to go hyper, spew all the "Ya can't trust the Government, etc, etc, etc.."

Then at Rollover, point to the power, etc being on, declare victory and thus discredit voices skeptical of Government actions in general.

Now Kristi is a Mormon and is prepped out the chimney as per the practices of her religion require. But that didn't keep her from being skeptical of the National Guard cum no electricity 'till the Second Coming cum 8 Million Businesses failing, blah blah blah!!

Like I said...one incredibly savvy homemaker!

-- K. Stevens (kstevens@ It ALL went away six days ago .com), January 06, 2000.

Jose Miami,

Do you honestly believe the spin you spout ? Jeez Jose, even a total moron would think the chances are better it were a Y2K issue than not. PEOPLE WAKE UP ! You aren't getting paid to spin disinformation debunking Y2K ! Or, are you ?

-- Rob (maxovrdrv51@hotmail.com), January 06, 2000.

John (and others),
An expedient way to force text to the next line is the "br" command, that is, type an open angle bracket (shift-comma on most keyboards), then the letters b and r and finally a close angle bracket (shift-period on most keyboards).

JoseMiami,
Though I remain pessimistic, I resonate with your above answer and can find nothing in it to have provoked the rancor that followed.

-- David L (bumpkin@dnet.net), January 06, 2000.