A re-post of something I tried to place on M. Hyatt's site ------------------

About a year ago I began getting the verbal hype from a lady I worked with at my former job. She quite knowingly told me that "the world would cease to exist, and the 'liberal' media is ignoring the facts". Her source of information on this subject was M. Hyatt's site, Gary North, Westergaard and the rest. Since I was in charge of the computer network, and had written most of the software that glued the business together, I had to listen to it.

It was funny. One afternoon she left for lunch and by the time she was back I had made all the preps. Workstations, server, everything. When I explained it she looked at ME like I was stupid. Yeah, the guy who's business it is to know this stuff, who spends his life learning and reviewing everything he can find, "I'm" the stupid one - not the sheep.

I tried being logical, but she had sifted all of these cool, key words out of Hyatt's books, and the dreaded Timebomb 2000 etc. - and she knew everything. Logic was a useless tool in this discussion.

So I went to Hyatt's site and found this glorious newsgroup. But at the time I wasn't that pissed. That came later, as I read posts from people who claimed to be "IT Consultants", or had worked in computers since the dawn of time.

Who were you people? What "IT" or computer background did you have? Do you not read ANYTHING that is published in this industry? Do you not have any responsibilities to either your company or your fellow employees? Do they just let you blunder about in a fog of ignorance?

Worse were people who were school teachers, leaders in church or other people whom the rest of us depend upon to teach our children common sense and to behave responsibly - and to think! Not to mention people who were spending money, and more importantly wasting away productive hours that could have helped both yourself and your family.

All you had to do was talk to anyone who actually had a clue as to what was going on. But you liked the pitch that the alarmists were using. It sounded better than the truth.

Why is that scary? Read on.

THE GUN FREAKS

I like a nice gun as much as the next guy. But when I began reading the posts about how to use a lawnmower muffler as a silencer, the Branch Davidian wannabe's on Hyatt's site got to me.

And that's when I realized that all of the y2k'ers where exhibiting some real Koresh like tendencies. Ignore the truth, censor the newsgroup of dissenting opinions, blame it all on the government, etc. Not everyone at Waco was a shooter, some were gatherers. But they all worked together to feed the delusion, seal off the outside world, work each other up to a frothing frenzy.

This entire period strongly points out the need for stringent gun control laws in this country. Gun ownership may be a right, but it's the right of a rational, intelligent individual.

WHY DID THE ALARMISTS DO IT?

The alarmists are really divided into two types, the leaders and the sheep. The leaders were into it for one of two reasons, either to make money (book sales, supply sales etc) or to feed a need to control people.

The sheep were into it because - frankly many of them hope for the end of the world. There are certain people out there who want to avoid the responsibility of fixing the problems in this world that are, often, a result of their own intolerance and stupidity. The easiest way to justify this laziness is to say that God will end the world.

God isn't going to let us off that easily. And frankly anyone who believes that he has seen the most evil that men are capable of has a real dull imagination. What frightens me more than anything is that Satan is probably counting on people to continue their apathy in order to let the world sink further and further down.

It was ludicrous to read the posts from people who are so pissed that the rest of the world "got by with luck and ignorance". Sorry guys, the rest of the world got by with hard work and understanding of the problem. The rest of you deadbeats are just getting carried along on our coattails. Not only that but you actually worked to sabotage our efforts with hoarding and other activities. But at least you made a Canadian 4.5 million richer.

And over the last few days I have continued to read the posts from people reporting "failures". They report these with the same sources of information they obviously used for their computer knowledge.

I loved the one about the phones being out in Phoenix. I live in Phoenix. B.S.

And the posts from people saying "I'm not ashamed." Of course not. And as flat as the learning curve was for Y2K I doubt that you will learn anything from this either. You just better hope and pray that the next time something really does happen, that your family will not be so jaded that they fall victim to a REAL disaster.

-- Horatio Hornblower (dontscrewme_2000@yahoo.com), January 05, 2000

Answers

Hey Horatio, blow me
a little kiss
and say goodbye

-- _ (_@_._), January 05, 2000.

"And that's when I realized that all of the y2k'ers where exhibiting some real Koresh like tendencies."

You know, "all" is a pretty broad brush to be painting an entire segment. Would you like to use something a little smaller before you libel someone?

"Gun ownership may be a right, but it's the right of a rational, intelligent individual."

Uh-huh. Intelligent. Right. Whom should I suppose would determine who is intellignet and who isn't? Why, anyone whose view is at odds with my own, of course. Hey! Let's limit _all_ rights to "intellignet individuals", like voting, and right to life, liberty and the persuit of.....

Aww, never mind. I just like beating my head against a post sometimes.

-- Hillbilly (Hillbilly@possum.creek), January 05, 2000.

Mr. Hornblower,

"Judge not, lest ye be judged"!

When you throw a stone into a pack of dogs the one that got hit yelped the loudest. When either you or I are perfect we can pick up the stone and give it a heave. Until then we both better really trust our God for our salvation. When we know a man's heart (only the Lord reallys knows) then we can judge him fairly.

I don't believe that a few people were expecting to get rich by fooling the majority of the worlds companies into believing Y2K was a hugh problem when it really wasn't.

You are welcome to your opinion but don't beat people over the head with it or you are no different than those you oppose.

wally

-- wally wallman (wally_yllaw@hotmail.com), January 05, 2000.

I believe everyone is putting too much blame on the authors who created this myth and not enough blame on those who made it possible; The people who bought it! Adolph Hitler, Mussolini, Lenin all would have been as harmless as spam lambs if it weren't for millions of people who were willing to be brainwashed. The real danger is what Lenin called the Proletariat. The mindless sheep who had numbers but no power, who could be convinced of anything as long as there was a promise of empowerment. Those who fell for this Y2K nonsense are the same type of people Hitler brainwashed into thinking the Jews were the cause of the collapse of Germany. They are the same people that Lenin used for his "workers utopia". This is a dangerous thing, not to be taken lightly.

I submit to you the cause of this hysteria is the inability of the average American to discriminate between truth and lie. The more preposterous the lie, the more some people are willing to believe it. Unfortunately, this is not a new thing. It is disappointing and frightening that in modern day America, the fodder exists for another holocaust. If an uncharismatic nitwit like Gary North can gain this much of a following, God help us when the next Hitler comes down the pipe.

Sincerely, Jeff

-- Jeff Cosgrove (Voiceuvrezon@yahoo.com), January 05, 2000.

HH

You're a child of God cleverly disguised as an idiot.

That was my post on Hyatt's forum about the phones in Phoenix being out. THE PHONES WERE OUT FOR TWO DAYS IN MY SISTERS NEIGHBORHOOD.

Please take note, at the time I posted I said I wasn't sure if this was a Y2K related event not. The service has been restored, and we still aren't sure what caused the outage. After the neighborhood called to have the repairs made, service was restored without an explanation.

I don't believe you live in Phoenix. If so, you must live on the south end of town with LL.

If you live in Phoenix, as you claim to, you would understand that one neighborhood "grid" can have the power cut while the folks across the street have lights and A/C. Same with the phones. Phoenix is a large city.

If I say the phones were out in a neighborhood, then the phones were out. I don't lie.

-- (jlinn@aol.com), January 05, 2000.

"And that's when I realzed that all y2ker's exhibited Koresh like tendencies."

Horatio, I am very bothered by this statement of yours. When the government sang in unison that everything will be fine, just prepare as though it were a three day storm, they were lining up locomotive sized generators, hoarding stockpiles of food and water, building multi-million dollar secure command centers.

Who are we to believe, some "Hank" working on pee-cees, or the actions of the government? So some guy is talking about using a muffler as a silencer. Sounds like contigency planning to me. No different that what a myriad of other agencies and companies did--talk about contigencies. If it was such a non-problem, why did they appoint a "Y2K Czar"?

Why did the senate hold hearings? Why did committe members sound alarms? Because of Micheal Hyatt? Come now, don't be such a Hornblower.

And now you want to come to my door and tell me how "right" you were? Why are you even here? Do you suffer some sort of character dis-order in that you need to puff up and tell everyone what a big man you are. That you fixed the pee-cees in your company. That you always saw the light. That you never lost a bet?

You are a mighty man Mr.Hornblower. How we never caught you at the Senate hearings I don't know. How we could miss you at the right hand of the President and Koskinen? I guess it was a conspiracy to keep you out of the limelight--to keep you from speaking aloud. Yes, Hyatt, et.al., kept you hidden away, lest you interuppt the cash cow called y2k.

Leave me alone will you, I am tryng to cast some incense burners just now.

Just a

Peace Farmer

-- Peace Farmer (peace-farmer@usa.net), January 05, 2000.

>That was my post on Hyatt's forum about the phones in Phoenix being >out. THE PHONES WERE OUT FOR TWO DAYS IN MY SISTERS NEIGHBORHOOD.

But that wasn't how it was written. It had the breathless, "this is it tone" that by now we are all quite familiar with. And I guess she ain't in my neighborhood. And that isn't on the south side, but I have nothing against people who live there.

The funny part is how the newsgroup is locked down, so that people's ridiculous claims cannot be refuted. Instead they are all circling and trying to prolong the fantasy.

You know the one? Where you hope to get rid of all those people on the south side.

-- (dontscrewme_2000@yahoo.com), January 05, 2000.

Horatio:

You were censored probably because you publicly showed you weren't capable of intelligent, decent discussion.

Don't whine to me because you're a twit.

-- (Kurt.Borzel@gems8.gov.bc.ca), January 05, 2000.

You mindless idiot. How dare you sit in judgement on me just because I was convinced that there might be a problem and bought a few supplies - just in the event we had no heat or water. I'll have you to understand that I lived through the horror of what happened in Germany and the war and no way would I have been convinced to follow a maniac like that. You probably haven't lived long enough or experienced enough hardship to qualify you to judge anybody and you damned sure don't have the intelligence.

-- Nadine Zint (nadine@hillsboro.net), January 05, 2000.

Dearest Horatio,

Flame me you really feel the need to do so, but MY big question is this:

Why were there no alleged "Super Pollys" testifying before the Senate Special Committee on the Year 2000 Computer Problem, etc.?

Why is that important? Well, I understand a thing or two (from first hand experience) regarding the synergetic relationship between business, government and the media.

But the Internet has been as much of a character in this entire drama as anyone who ever advocated buying tons of wheat or cases of champagne.

BECAUSE of the Internet, many people read ENTIRE SENATE reports, rather than viewing the press conferences on C-SPAN, or watching the evening news.

The only alleged "Polly" I recall showing up at any government hearings was Kathy Hotka, representing a national retailers trade group, who urged the American public to purchase preparation supplies before Christmas and expressed the wishes of those who paid her salary, who wanted the American people to "buy a scarf before the holidays, rather than a gun."

Why weren't the pollies invited to testify? Hello?

Since my primary professional focal point--as a journalist and a former teacher--tends to focus on societal issues, I REALLY wonder about this one.

Best to you, regardless, my friend.

Come visit us at my new forum sometime. Beware, however, I CONTROL THE DELETE KEY! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

:)

Discussion forum for The Toilet Paper Chronicles: Gallows Humor from the Y2k Underground



-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), January 05, 2000.

My wife (soon to be ex-wife) and her 76-year-old father both told me that Y2K was my stupid fantasy, and that there could never be a monetary collapse like I also spoke to them about. Yup. It hasn't happened yet, either. Neither one has ever used a computer in their lives. Dad-in-law lived thru the 20's Depression here in Sydney, Australia. He got through that by neighbour helping neighbour, and could not imagine that not happening. So now it looks like they were right (so far). Was that because they were cleverer than me? Maybe. Personally, I believe they were just ignorant. They were naive to trust the government(s), big business and the "powers-that-be". Maybe there's LUCK in this, or maybe it hasn't completed yet...

-- David Harvey (vk2dmh@hotmail.com), January 05, 2000.

Horatio,

I'm with all of the folks who disagreed with your point of view. Glad you are so important in your workplace, everyone needs to feel dominant somewhere. Good for you that you've found yours.

-- Michael (michaelteever@buffalo.com), January 05, 2000.

Horatio Hornblower, it is obvious that you know about computers as I know about brain surgury, NOTHING. Thank God for people like Hyatt who blew the whistle and spread the word. Without the few like Hyatt who wouldn't listen to stupid people such as yourself, Y2K would have been a nightmare for most of the computer community and worse for the public that depends on them for food, fuel etc.

Thank God for Michael Hyatt

-- Someone with a brain (biteme@blowfish.com), January 05, 2000.

This was my post from MH's forum:

"My out of state relatives (DWGI) have been staying with my sister who lives about 5 miles from me. Phone service has been out all day since they got up, and don't have a clue when it went down. They have been calling me via cell phones, and have not made contact with U.S. West yet. I have posted it here until I confirm it's Y2K related, but move it "Bugwatch" if you feel it's pertinent.

My phones are working fine."

Hardly sounds breathless to me.

I apologize if I have insulted you about where you live. That was uncalled for on my part, and the only excuse I can offer is that not only have your comments tried to discredit me, but all of your comments have offended and hurt others.

I feel angry and hurt, but this is no excuse for saying to you what I did.

One of the reasons I don't post often on this forum, is that some of the members here can be so brutal.

Isn't it time to wipe the slate clean? We have a whole beautiful year ahead of us, and much to be grateful for.

May the peace and love of Jesus Christ shine down on you all the days of your lives.

-- (jlinn@aol.com), January 05, 2000.

Can't imagine why they wouldn't want a charmer like you there Captain.

-- rumdoodles (rumdoodles@yahoo.com), January 05, 2000.

Horatio<<< My oh My I'm one of those "prepared polly's"( A throwback to my old legalistic religion days) I hope you stay around long enough to see this post. You really are the one that is right. You said it quite well when you said that you looked at the facts and madeyour decision not just luck. for those of us out there that weren't doomers you are the ONLY one on this page that is sensible> The rest will just have to spend time developing a new paradigm. It will be tough. To spend all that time $$$ and energy believeing the worst and have it not turn out that way is a real jolt to your daily thoughts. It was over in one night.(ALtho they don't believe it was or is) It's over and we know it. I do have 36 gallons of water in my kitchen:):):) Our pipes froze today so I'm glad to have had them:):) Ta-Ta Horatio you made eloquent sense...they just don't realize it. perhaps some day they will Betty

-- betty boop (bstorgy@aol.com), January 05, 2000.

HH wrote: "One afternoon she left for lunch and by the time she was back I had made all the preps. Workstations, server, everything."

Guys and gals of this forum, Horatio has just told you a lot. Listen to him.

-- Me (me@me.me), January 05, 2000.

Reading this thread and others I have been struck by the amazingly aggressive tone of many comments. A similar spiral into violent discord is apparent in much public discourse these days, especially online. Email with its detachment from physical and aural feedback may account for some of the verbal violence. But it seems to me something more disturbing is going on.

We in the United States seem to be losing our capacity to disagree with one another without violence. I for example have had to edit my comments at least three times already to replace extremest claims with more realistic ones. Word changes such as replacing "every" with "many" or "some" often better match reality upon reflection.

I fear many of distort reality dramatically in our posts by exaggerating numbers or frequency, making outrageous and unwarranted comparisons, and insulting the integrity of writers who may very well be sincere. All of these the cognitive psychologists would call cognitive distortions. They make it hard to think clearly about reality.

I also note that few of us if any really know any of the people who submit comments to a thread like this one. That very anonymity allows stereotyping to run rampant, since we have no real point of contact to correct our stereotypes. It also seems quite possible that some participants purposely fan the flames by typing outrageous comments for reasons only they know.

If everyone here began trying to address individuals rather than stereotypes, perhaps there would be fewer shouting matches and insults and more substance to a forum like this one. And if everyone took just a moment to edit their words before sending them forth into the ether, a many ill-considered words might never get sent out at all.

I by the way did and do believe Y2K has the potential to seriously disrupt business as usual. But I might be wrong. Then again, a UPS package due to arrive this week was "rerouted to another state by mistake" for reasons my supplier could not explain. Maybe its just the holidays, or just a coincidence. The fact that I cannot reasonably find out what caused this unusual delay, along with the fact that I cannot easily determine whether anyone else has experienced anything similar makes me wonder.

-- Neil (nmruggles@earthlink.net), January 05, 2000.

Horatio:

I don't think that fear of the unknown is unreasonable, although some of us react to such fear in (what might appear to others to be) an unreasonable manner.

Y2k was, and in many respects still is, an unknown.  Even for professional programmers, the unknown areas outside our individual specialties were cause for great concern and argument . . . if you didn't follow the biting, kicking and ear-pulling that went on in comp.software.year-2000, you might want to take a look at a few of the those threads via Dejanews.

Fear can be diminished through action, and I for one was personally active in remediation.  As a result, I felt confident that the company where I work would survive the CDC unscathed, at least in terms of the code, because I had my hands on the code and I could see how things were progressing.  (Things are going very well for us in that regard, by the way.)

This didn't eliminate the fear, though.  I was afraid that too many others -- particularly those holding the infrastructure together -- would ignore the threat until it was too late.  There was so much pooh-poohing of Y2k, so late in the game, that I felt sure we were in deep trouble.

Because I couldn't address this fear directly through action to correct the problem, I had to deal with it indirectly.  My eventual solution evolved from this realization: that I and my family were vulnerable to disruptions beyond our control, but that we could minimize this vulnerability through preparation.  With that realization, Y2k became a manageable threat in my mind.  The potential was still very unpleasant, but it wasn't unsurvivable.

My big realization may seem like a no-brainer to you.  It seems like one to me now.  However, the fact is that if we had experienced any disruption, such as a major earthquake (a distinct possibility here) prior to Y2k, we would have been almost totally reliant on emergency services.  If that earthquake occurs now, we have the means for weathering the resultant disruption on our own for quite some time.

Some people's preps were more 'extreme' than mine, others were less.  I feel that the majority of the people who worked here together in the non-profit Rogue Valley Y2k Task Force were on pretty much the same wavelength, in terms of preparedness levels.   I don't have numbers to back that up, though, and it may just be my perception.

You're right, there is a certain element that would like to see TEOTWAWKI.  Did the number of such people increase because of Y2k hype?  I have no idea.  Could you have reasoned with such a person -before- Y2k was an issue?  Your call.

As for complacency and the risk of people ignoring future cries of "WOLF!" -- I don't have the answer there, either.  Sorry, I really wish I did.  Speaking for the United States now, I will say that we don't seem to embrace a culture of personal responsibility.  Perhaps if we did, the threats to which we now overreact wouldn't seem like such big deals.

-- =DSA. (dsangal@attglobal.net), January 05, 2000.

betty boop: Do you like to mudwrestle?

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), January 05, 2000.

Neil,

How many packages does UPS lose in a given week? When was the last time you had one lost? They got me twice this year, one was lost, one was damaged into oblivion.

It's just kind of silly - that's all. I have a few doomer friends and I would say the same to them, it wouldn't kill our friendship.

Crap happens in the world all the time. The boneheads at the phone company took 2 weeks to post my payment last month. That doesn't set up economic collapse. Just high blood pressure.

What kind of business are you in? Have you leaned out the door this week and heard of any other mass UPS MIA's? I love the guys claiming the media is blocking "THE TRUTH".

You don't need the media for the truth. Go ask your neighbor.

-- The Charmer (dontscrewme_2000@yahoo.com), January 05, 2000.

The paragraph about why so many people wanted to believe in the Y2K problem is interesting. I have often wondered myself why I go for apocalyptic scenarios and end-of-the world intrigues. I think there is a reflection in what we see outside of what is actually going on inside. As you say, we secretly want to see the world end and all those who are doing evil get what's coming to them to make up for us who have tried to be good. We want God to fix the problem all at once rather than face reality and see what we can do about it, probably realizing that there will most likely be gradual change over a long period of time requiring much effort. It would be much more dramatic and satisfying to have God step in. But the real struggle is inside ourselves. We see things about ourselves that we don't like either and probably have been trying to get rid of for many years. Here too, we expect God to step in and make us perfect all at once rather than take the necessary efforts to grow in virtue by repeated action and self-control. Certainly the second is much more difficult, but I would submit more in line with reality.

-- I'll (take.a.turn@the.bat), January 05, 2000.

Hornblower--Mainframes, you know, those big honkers-hundreds of billions of lines of Cobol, unremediated lines(and about 40 other languages)--give it till the middle of February before you write another Philosophy 101 term paper.

-- Blew5M (gaf@mindspring.com), January 05, 2000.

King of Spain<<< HUH??? Betty boop

-- betty boop (bstorgy@aol.com), January 05, 2000.

Hey King of Spain-You threw Betty boop for a loop!!

Sorry-couldn't resist! LOL

-- (I Believe (Repent@time is now.com)), January 05, 2000.

Horatio can you really use a lawnmower muffler for a silencer? WOW

-- snooze button (alarmclock_2000@yahoo.com), January 05, 2000.

HH, Very well said. The two things that stand out are:

1. There is a certain sadness in how many of the posters there still seem to be grasping at anything to somehow justify their preperations. Its time for them to just cut thier losses and deal with the mistake, there is no shame in it. They have all sunk way to much of their lives into this...move on folks, its over.

2. There is a large portion (not all) of their posters that view the world in a negative light...y2k was the flavor this year, in the future it will be something else...these types of people look for situations to pounce upon to fuel their fears.

I don't harbor any ill towards M. Hyatt, I read his site for almost a year on a daily basis and I honestly think he was trying to do the right thing from a sincere heart. Somewhere along the line his board evolved into a closed community that just could not process the positive IT reports that were presented to them. They basically tried to "debunk" all the positive news and focus on the ramifications of the "what if's".

Ohh and KOS....I'd LOVE to mud wrestle!! <> come on big boy...lets get dirty!!

-- RainMan (P38Rain@aol.com), January 05, 2000.

Horatio:

In about an hour you fixed an whole office. Too bad you aren't working for a heavy manufacturing co I could name that hasn't had access to their UNIX boxes since SATURDAY!!!

I could hand you a COBOL listing of a program and ask you if it's compliant and if not how to make it so and I SUSPECT that it would take yo a WHOLE LOT LONGER than an hour to even FIND the date issues (it's a small, 1.5K-lines terminal data handling IMS program written by an artist in COBOL but he didn't like documentation...)

Chuck Who has turned out 1 compliant and 3 non compliant systems in his past.

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), January 06, 2000.

Horatio.....

here, check this out

http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/index.html

-- cin (cinlooo@aol.com), January 06, 2000.

Worse were people who were school teachers, leaders in church or other people whom the rest of us depend upon to teach our children common sense and to behave responsibly

-How sad for this country that so many people depend on others to teach their children common sense and responsibility.

This entire period strongly points out the need for stringent gun control laws in this country. Gun ownership may be a right, but it's the right of a rational, intelligent individual.

-How did you make this jump? Are you the one to decide who is deserving of it? I don't believe rational, intelligent people should eat sugar, chemicals, food coloring, genetically engineered produce... Do you believe that I should be able to legislate that? I would never assume to legislate to others. And before you say these can't kill, do some research.

-- Mia (jnmpow@flash.net), January 06, 2000.

After reading this, I am going to my favorites, and remove the link to your BB.

Some of us who have had the rug quickly removed from under our paws before in life are left painfully aware that life is not linear. What has always been there may suddenly be gone. Preparing for every conceivable eventuality is an over-reaction, preparing for nothing is imbecilic. Which catagory do you fit into?

just a mouthy housemouse, who is cranky this morning, not liking what she is hearing about plane travel problems on the east coast, even though she has no trip planned, but realizes that this particular "butterfly" effect could bite her little mousetail in some unforeseen way....

-- housemouse (inlittlehole@nevermind.now), January 06, 2000.