I believed this stuff. I thought Lord was the good guy fighting against the current, standing up for what was right. Was it really just made up? Gary North also implied the sources to be credible. My head is still spinning. Have I been duped that bad? I dont like being wrong when Ive opened my mouth to a lot of people, but if Im wrong so be it. I think Lord and North should at least speak to the Mr CEO issue just to clear the air a bit, I mean we are on the same side arnt we?

-- Feeling like an ass (fredtn5@hotmail.com), January 03, 2000

Answers

Hey, don't feel bad. I actually worked on fixing Y2k for the last 4 years. Saw lots of code being remediated (and many times not working the first time, I might add). I can't figure it unless we have flawless programmers working out there. Time will tell.

-- fatanddumb (fatdumb@nd.happy), January 03, 2000.

Feeling like an ass

I certainly understand your feelings and you have my sympathy. I too have been duped into believing this stuff. What also gets me are the consistent IEEE reports to the Senate hearings. Their reports weren't optimistic. How on earth could these guys be so horribly wrong? I'm stumped. I would have never opened my mouth either. I'm getting ribbed here at work and I'll get it again at the gym. I have to admit that I was wrong (and certainly be happy) in order to stop the ridicule. I'm not going to wait 3,4,5 or six months down the road and wait for some financial impact that may or may not happen. I would look like an idiot if I did this.

If the embedded systems were taken out of the equation I would have only warned a few close friends about a possible business/financial impact. However, after all of this, I'm certainly not in the position to warn anybody of anything in the future. My credibility is down the tubes and I too look like an ass. Thanks a heap German Intelligence, State Department warnings, MR. CEO, GAO hearings, just to name a few and let's not forget of course Jim Lord, who I thought was credible, which by the way we're still waiting for a response.

-- Larry (cobol.programmer@usa.net), January 03, 2000.

fatanddumb<

It looks like the "good" programmers finally took over and got the work done right. I feel sorry for those who were trying to try the same ond scam of dragging the project out over budget and over time as they usually do, they have branded themselfs for what they really are. Especially if they created or allowed the problem to go on for so in the first place.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), January 03, 2000.

I have been writing code for 20 years. I also developed hardware from '81-'90. I never put a date into andy embedded system stuff and so I originally thought it wasn't possible for those kind of systems to have problems. However, when I read some of the stuff on North's site about embededs and particularly a report by Kraft on their PLC's, I started buying water and extra canned goods.

I have spent probably $500 getting ready and can use all of my preps because I have a propane gas grill. I just bought two extra 40lb tanks and filled em. The water isn't a big deal and I can eat all the canned goods.

I am most irritated about being duped by the Mr. CEO stuff and it certainly seems irresponsible if this person still refuses to come forward at this stage and say who he is.

NOW ABOUT BUGS -- There are several kinds in the industry

Sev. 1 or Crit Sit -- These kind have no workaround and are show-stoppers. There aren't that many of these

Sev. 2 These have workarounds and the systems don't operate at optimum or even best capacity if the workaround has to be put in place. However, they are not show-stoppers. There are MANY of these in businesses today.

Sev. 3 These are bugs that have a workaround and are not show stoppers and also don't affect day to day operations. The wrong dates on web sites are like these. They get fixed slowly if ever

Sev. 4 These are cosmetic and usually don't get fixed until a new product is developed.

The second thing about bugs is that they lurk until the code path that causes them is executed. You can have a Sev. 1 that doesn't show itself until just the right set of circumstances. This happens a lot with code in the kernel like device drivers and such. It also happens in heavy loading conditions.

There will be some Sev 1 stuff that occurs in the coming months that is date related. The rest of the stuff seems to have been Sev. 2 and/or Sev 3. That I can see there haven't been any Sev 1s reported publicly.

What I would like to know about Mr. CEO is, are you real. Then if so, why did you offer such a bleak assessment. Is it because under load in the summer or even if winter gets real cold you expect a bunch of Sev 1s to show up?

-- William R. Sullivan (wrs@wham.com), January 03, 2000.

Feeling like an Ass.....You are an Ass if you think this thing is over you too Larry. As for cherri, get a spell checker.

-- tiredofthesepansyassposts (karlacalif@aol.com), January 03, 2000.

tiredofthesepansyassposts

I don't think it's over. I'm a business application programmer for cripes sake. I've had to do a lot of remediation myself. Now we're into my bag and I don't have to depend on anybody else's opinion on this (especially those damn embedded system experts or whoever they are).

I do think a serious recession or maybe even a depression is totally possible. This just isn't enough to worry about in my book when you think about infrastructure problems. I just don't think we needed to run out and buy generators, propane heaters so on and so on. Some people bought new homes in the sticks, sold their stocks, quit their jobs. Think how they feel?

I have to admit that I was wrong even though I feel some problems still could arise. I want to get this ridiculing phase over with. I've opened my mouth and right now I'm regretting it. This is what I get for being concerned. But you can't explain this to those that are ridiculing me right now. I did this out of concern not to scare people needlessly. There is a big difference.

-- Larry (cobol.programmer@usa.net), January 03, 2000.

I will say over and over again the truth will come out at the gas pumps and in the courts. Big industry like the gov.,plays a dirty game. The ins industry reemburses them for the F2K fix, and refuses to pay any damage caused by F2K. Then industry and gov alike claims all failures are not F2k related. Ins lawyers will bring it out in court just how many were in fact F2k related, all those glitches that the news media says are not F2K relate. Big industry wants to get reembursed for getting the fix, and then turn around and collect again when the failure happens. Lawyers those same guys that depend on lies to exist will bring the truth out.

-- Notforlong (Fsur439@aol.com), January 03, 2000.

Larry,

What kinds of problems do you expect? I work on a lot of UNIX high-end stuff and people run SAP, Manugistics, I2, Oracle and a ton of thin-client stuff that is C++ based. These programs were written to by date resistant so where do you expect the problems?

-- William R. Sullivan (wrs@wham.com), January 03, 2000.

William

In short, what I said is that "I do think a serious recession or maybe even a depression is totally possible." That does not me that I believe 100% that it will happen. I'm definately feeling more optimistic.

As far as problems, I still find it hard to believe that all that COBOL code out there is all fine and that there are no problems with the legacy systems. This I find hard to swallow. These systems haven't gone away. Some of them yes, just not all of them. I'm going to continue to keep my eyes on Medicare, Medicaid and other various government services. We were also told that the Fortune 1000 companies (I believe 48%) were still not complete as of December. Of course, lies still prevail as you well know. Nobody really knows what to believe anymore and I certainly can understand this. But my business IT experience tells me that this could be true. I spent 5 years on my fixes and it was difficult convincing others that there is a problem. I was labeled a doom and gloomer back then, but nevertheless fixes had to be done.

But the real good news is that if problems do develop fixes can be implemented. The question is how fast? I know that all fixes aren't quick, especially design fixes.

-- Larry (cobol.programmer@usa.net), January 03, 2000.

Larry,

I take back what I said about sev 1s...Deutsche Bank was a sev 1 and I have a theory about how it happened. My question to you is, given my bug rating scale (you probably have seen it before in some form). How many sev 1s did you fix and how many sev 2s and how many sev 1s do you guess are still out there?

-- William R. Sullivan (wrs@wham.com), January 03, 2000.

Hi!

Here is a problem that came over a mailing list I belong to:

"We are having problems with computers that have windows98 - Second edition. They did not roll over and will not hold the current date. We can set the current date, but when we reboot, the date reverts to February 1988 on all of our machines which have second edition regardless of the motherboard age."

-- No Polly (nopolly@hotmail.com), January 03, 2000.

Feeling like an ass:

I had one co-worker (only one?!) walk into my office today and say "Well, it looks like y2k wasn't a big deal after all (*note said with gloating sarcasm)". I said "yea, if you consider 7 nuke plant incidents to be no big deal". He was flabbergasted to have not heard of one nuke "glitch" period, regardless of "cause". When I made the transition from the Tenn missile plant to the Oregon toxic cloud that was too small to hurt anyone and no one died...belittling the problems in like tone, he couldn't stand the heat and had to flee outside for a smoke.

Hang in there, and keep tracking the facts that leak, it's looking ugly. Still no word on the 20 nuke subs in the Russian graveyard that OUR Navy risked life and limb to assist...

Chin up soldier, hope for the best, but DON'T let your guard down, cause as more SHTF, alot of folks may need your strength.

-- Hokie (Hokie_@hotmail.com), January 03, 2000.