Why are we confused re: Israel and Judah?

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Just found this site today.

I have, for many years, wondered why Christians are so confused regarding the distinction between Israel and Judah when it is clear that the nations are two distinct entities.

(2 Chr 11:1 KJV) "And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he gathered of the house of Judah and Benjamin an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against Israel, that he might bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam."

(2 Chr 11:2 KJV) "But the word of the LORD came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"

(2 Chr 11:3 KJV) "Speak unto Rehoboam the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and to all Israel in Judah and Benjamin, saying,"

(2 Chr 11:4 KJV) "Thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren: return every man to his house: for this thing is done of me. And they obeyed the words of the LORD, and returned from going against Jeroboam."

(2 Sam 7:10 KJV) "Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,"

(2 Sam 7:11 KJV) "And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house."

Also King David was given this promise by Nathan re:

1) A place for Israel outside of Palestine.

2) And King David was promised that God would, "make thee an house."

Also Judah was promised the "chief ruler" and Joseph was promised the birhtright.

(1 Chr 5:2 KJV) "For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's:)"

(Gen 25:31 KJV) "And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright."

(Gen 25:32 KJV) "And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?"

(Gen 25:33 KJV) "And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob."

Jacob/Israel had 12 sons. Joseph had two sons Ephraim and Mannaseh. To these two came the promise:

(Gen 48:19 KJV) "And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations." (Don't we have a great nation and a great multitude of nations today?)

(Gen 48:20 KJV) "And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh."

Then in Genesis 49, Israel prophesied what would occur to Israel in the last days...(Gen 49:1 KJV) "And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days."

Some of the Tribes would merge into the other tribes and others would form nations, not the least of these would be Joseph...(Gen 49:22 KJV) "Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:"

(Gen 49:23 KJV) "The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:"

(Gen 49:24 KJV) "But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)"

(Gen 49:25 KJV) "Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:"

(Gen 49:26 KJV) "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren."

Then Paul writes this prophecy...

(Rom 11:25 KJV) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

(Rom 11:26 KJV) "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

(Rom 11:27 KJV) "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

Then we have a picture of the Bride of Christ...(Rev 21:9 KJV) "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."

(Rev 21:10 KJV) "And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,"

(Rev 21:11 KJV) "Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;"

(Rev 21:12 KJV) "And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:"

I know many believe the Church is the Bride of Christ but the Bible says Israel is the Bride of Christ. That's the main reason Jesus had to die. To Redeem His Bride. (Luke 24:21 KJV) "But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done."

It says in the following verses that God divorced Israel, Judah was worse than Israel and to Israel "I am married unto you:".

(Jer 3:8 KJV) "And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also."

(Jer 3:9 KJV) "And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks."

(Jer 3:10 KJV) "And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD."

(Jer 3:11 KJV) "And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah."

(Jer 3:12 KJV) "Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever."

(Jer 3:13 KJV) "Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD."

(Jer 3:14 KJV) "Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:"

Don't know where I will be in the next few days but I'll try to have my computer close by to respond



-- Anonymous, December 30, 1999

Answers

Um, Could I ask one question please? What is your question in this thread? (I guess that's two questions, hm?) It seems you are taking up a lot of space to put up your side of an argument that hasn't taken place yet. Perhaps you could go back to the beginning of this conversation and start there instead of the middle of it. I'm really interested in the WHY of your answer, and why it is rewarded with such a long dissertation. I, for one, am completely confused as to the relevancy of the issue of Israel/Judah.

-- Anonymous, December 30, 1999

"I, for one, am completely confused as to the relevancy of the issue of Israel/Judah."

-- Nate Graham (Vocalmania@aol.com), December 30, 1999.

IMO the relevancy of the issue of Israel/Judah is that most people trying to read prophecy mix the prophecies re: Israel with those re: Judah. By doing that wrong conclusions are reached.

For instance...(Hosea 1:10 KJV) "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God."

Then in the Book of John...(John 1:12 KJV) "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

Israel was to become Christian and in the place where it is said "Ye are not my people (Israel) there it will be said of them, Ye are the sons of the living God."

If you try to fit this into the Jews then you come up with a problem seeing as how they dislike the very name Jesus. (1 Th 2:14 KJV) "For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:"

(1 Th 2:15 KJV) "Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:"

(Mat 2:6 KJV) "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel."

According to the above Jesus came to "rule my people Israel." (Mat 10:6 KJV) "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

(Mat 10:7 KJV) "And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand."

However the Jews said...(Mat 27:25 KJV) "Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children." And they rejected Jesus for Caesar...(John 19:15 KJV) "But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar."

It makes sense to me but the preachers I talk to always say, "Well, we use the term Jew as a generic term for all Israel." And by doing so they blind themselves to the fact that the Book is a History of the People of Israel and Gods dealings with His People who were to become Christians.

Others are allowed into the commnonwealth of Israel...(Eph 2:11 KJV) "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;"

(Eph 2:12 KJV) "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"

(Eph 2:13 KJV) "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."

Take care!

Mark

-- Anonymous, December 31, 1999


Nate, I'm not being able to work out just where this is going, either. it LOOKS suspiciously like it's working toward an introduction of the teachings of the ridiculous and blasphemous teachings of Arnold Murray, of The Shepherd's Chapel. But it's a bit too early to tell, so I won't make a categorical assertion about that yet.

-- Anonymous, December 31, 1999

Mark,

I too have a difficult time figuring out what your point is. Whether you are trying make the point that the true Jews are the Church or trying to make some disp. premillennial argument for the modern day Jew still being God's people. If you could start from the very beginning of your thoughts, it would help.

-- Anonymous, December 31, 1999


Sam,

"ridiculous and blasphemous teachings of Arnold Murray, of The Shepherd's Chapel. But it's a bit too early to tell, so I won't make a categorical assertion about that yet."

I am not familiar with the teachings of Arnold Murray! Could you explain what he talks about re: blasphemous teachings? Does he speak evil of the Lord or worse (Mark 3:29 KJV) "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:"

987. blasphemeo, blas-fay-meh'-o; from G989; to vilify; spec. to speak impiously:--(speak) blaspheme (-er, -mously, -my), defame, rail on, revile, Maybe I should have simply asked the Question and left it at that. Let me try again.

Why is the Christian Church confused regarding the seperate identities of Israel and Judah? It is obvious they are two entitities and when the prophecies re: Israel are mixed with the prophecies re: Judah the conclusion is incorrect.

Following is one of 75 references to Israel in the New Testament: (Mat 2:6 KJV) "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel."

And this is the only mention of Judah, and the point is clear in that they are "the house of Israel and the house of Judah: (Heb 8:8 KJV) "For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:"

And the term Juda is mentioned 10 times.

Again my main question regards mixing the two Houses into the same prophecy and coming to a wrong conclusion.

I see no form of blasphemy in recognizing this distinction and am interested in your view as to why this has happened.

Regards

Mark

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2000



Ok, let me try again...

What specifically are you refering to with your ascertian that the Christian Church mixes the Houses of Judah and Israel... in addition what, specifically, are the misinterpretations we are making from the prophecies (which prophecies, too) Also, what are the problems associated with these so called mis-interpretations?

I am still failing to see where it is you are going with all of this. It seems I am not alone in saying that you've started a thread in the middle of a conversation... Could you give us some background on your ascertations? What is it that has prompted you to make these broadbased claims?

In Him,

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2000


Mark: I did not mean to imply that what you have said thus far is blasphemous. I, too, am at a loss to see where you are going with it all.

Arnold Murray is a proponent of a form of classic "British Israelism" and the teachings of the "seed of Satan." In short form, it is this: In the garden, the original sin was that Eve had sexual relations with Satan, and then had sexual relations with Adam. The two sons who were born of the unions were not, in fact, twins. Abel was indeed the offspring of Adam, but Cain was actually the offspring of Satan. Cain's descendant's, throughout the Biblical record, are called Kenites (a form of "Cain-ites). The Kenites survived the flood by being on the ark, but numbered among the "beasts of the field" by the writer of Genesis -- since they were not fully human, they had no souls, and so the writer could correctly say that eight "souls" were saved aboard the ark. But the Kenites were as well. It was these Kenites who eventually came to power among the Jews, and who were the ones in leadership at the time of Christ. the Kenites Killed Jesus, the Kenites survived the Roman onslaughts, and the Kenites are the people whom we know call "Jews." For this reason, many of the religiously-based Anti-Semitic groups around the world have no problem with killing or hating Jews -- 'cause they're not really human, ya see.

Let me emphasize that I place no stock in what I have related to you here. I reject it entirely. I'm simply reporting the facts of what Arnold Murray and many others teach.

One of the hallmarks of the teachings of these guys is pronouncements about how we Christians misunderstand who we're talking about when we talk about Israel and Judah and the Jewish people, and the prophecies about them. THAT's where your discussion came in. I was saying that the things you have said are the very kind of things that these people often begin discussions with, and then work toward the whole "ridiculous, blasphemous" set of ideas they hold.

If that is NOT what you mean, then we have the grounds for what might be an interesting discussion. Once again, I did not mean to assert that you were making or going to make these claims.

but it HAS been hard to tell where you are going with your thoughts. You haven't given quite enough info to enter into discussion yet. We hope you will fill out your ideas, so that we can have a bit of a chat with you.

-- Anonymous, January 03, 2000


Sam,

Thanks! I have heard of this "Seed of Satan" thing also. I don't follow it.

I do however believe the Scriptures and The Kingdom Message. (Gen 49:1 KJV) "And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days." Jacob/Israel was here giving to his sons a prophecy re: their status in the "last days." This includes the Jews or Judah. There are Twelve Tribes of Israel and the Jews are only one tribe and therefore to understand the Kingdom message we muxt understand what happened to the other tribes. (James 1:1 KJV) "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."

Have to go to work now!

Thanks for your input.

Mark

-- Anonymous, January 04, 2000


Hello,

I just found this forum, thought I would put in an answer of my own. Some of the other responders suspect (probably correctly) that Mark above is some kind of British-Israelite who is baiting the forum in order to push his agenda. Maybe so, but any question deserves calm and civil answers. You ought to give Mark the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

First, we should point out that Mark's original assertion is simply false. Christians who know thier Bible are well aware of the two Kingdoms. Mark's assertion is question begging.

The real question is whether or not the distinction between the nation of Judah and the nation of Israel carries over into New Testament times as a distinction between two people groups to be called Jews and Israelites. It is clear that that distinction is not made in the New Testament.

The Jews are called Israel or the men of Israel all over the book of Acts and the gospels (not Mark, but strongly so in Luke and John.) The fact is that Hebrew, Jew and Israelite (or person of Israel are used interchangably. In fact, every instance in the New Testament were Israelite is used to refer to 1st century people, it is used to refer to Jews.

Paul in particular makes this very clear:

It is real clear in Roman 10:1-3:

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

It is clear that Paul is talking about the Jews in Palestine and calls them Israel. He identifies these Israelites very clearly by describing their practices. His words make no allowances for any other groups who might claim to be Israelites. Paul talks about Israel as a different group from the Gentiles. Israel has the law, the Gentiles don't. Israel is the true vine, the Gentiles are grafted branches, etc.

The New Testament only recognizes three groups: Jews, Gentiles and the church. Note the verses:

I Cor. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. set also I Cor 10:32

There are other verses, but the point is that there are no "Israelites" given any consideration in the New Testament apart from the Jews. This is also true of the post-exile books of the Old Testament. Nehemiah describes his people as "Jews" and "children of Israel." No mention is made of any children of Israel apart from the Jews.

Ezra uses both Jews and Israel to refer to the exiles. He uses the term "all Israel" several times. Here is an example:

Then arose Ezra, and made the chief priests, the Levites, and all Israel, to swear that they should do according to this word. And they sware. Ezra 10:5.

This should be enough for most common sense interpreters of the text.

After the northern Kingdom went into captivity, some Israelites - those who were faithful to the Lord, came south to Judah - just as the Old Testament teaches. After the exile, the returned "Jews" represented people from all tribes in varying degrees. We see an echo of this in Luke where Anna, a prophetess is said to be a descendant of Asher.

-- Anonymous, January 04, 2000


"No mention is made of any children of Israel apart from the Jews."

Israel is mentioned 75 times in the New Testament and Judah is mentioned 1 time, Juda is mentioned 10 times, and Jew is mentioned 22 times.

(Mat 2:6 KJV) "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel."

Paul was an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin and therefore could not be a Jew or... 3063. Yehuwdah, yeh-hoo-daw'; from H3034; celebrated; Jehudah (or Judah), the name of five Isr.; also of the tribe descended from the first, and of its territory:--Judah.

2453. Ioudaios, ee-oo-dah'-yos; from G2448 (in the sense of G2455 as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Jehudah:--Jew (-ess), of Judaea.

True he was a Judaean or citizen of Judaea, 2449. Ioudaia, ee-oo-dah'- yah; fem. of G2453 (with G1093 impl.); the Judaean land (i.e. Judaea), a region of Pal.:--Judaea.

(Rom 11:1 KJV) "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin."

In the Old Testament, out of which Jesus told us to get our treasures, (Mat 13:52 KJV) "Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old." The Tribe of Judah and the Tribes of Israel are always treated seperatly...(1 Ki 11:35 KJV) "But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and will give it unto thee, even ten tribes."

(1 Ki 11:36 KJV) "And unto his son (Judah) will I give one tribe,(Benjamin) that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there."

Notice above that God seperated "ten Tribes" which became known as Israel and Judah received 1 tribe,(Benjamin) and others from Israel as mentioned above.

(Isa 9:8 KJV) "The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel."

Upon whom has this light lighted upon. Israel. Christians.

(Hosea 1:10 KJV) "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God."

(Hosea 1:11 KJV) "Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel."

I am not baiting anyone! I would like to know why people cannot tell the difference between Judah and Israel. Is it because of this?...(Rom 11:25 KJV) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

(Rom 11:26 KJV) "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

Remember also that Jesus said there would be fake Jews... (Rev 3:9 KJV) "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."

Regards

-- Anonymous, January 05, 2000



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