As a person with vaguely liberal tendendcies in the past, and having no obvious need for a gun, I never got one, have never shot a gun, rarely touched one. All this year I thought about getting one and taking lessons. What held me back was this reasoning: if I have a gun and am confronting someone else who has one, what I'm in is-- duh-- a GUNFIGHT. Now even if I had taken some good training, would I come out alive? I doubt it. I figured if I bought a gun, I would be the one who would get shot. My (probably doomed) strategy is to have enough extra of all my supplies that I can appease someone with offerings (no fair mentioning Neville Chamberlain). I'm wondering how many people who have seriously prepared are not armed. What's your attitude toward this problem? I did get some pepper spray, for what that might be worth.

-- Sitting Duck (shoot@myfoot.com), December 28, 1999

Answers

If you both have a gun then it's automatically a gunfight?

By that logic, if only the Bad Guy has one, it's automatically an execution.

As to "no fair mentioning Neville Chamberlain," my only comment is that saying so doesn't make it so.

Good call though on realizing that the "strategy" is "probably doomed."

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), December 28, 1999.

Pepper spray may save you from a manslaughter charge. I'm not qualified to respond to your thread (since I do own guns). But, like you, I sincerely doubt I'd deny another human being food or water if he came knocking. If someone decided to break open my door and he obviously intended to harm me, I would feel forced to defend myself.

It may be difficult for others to respond to your question from a level playing field, so to write; many people live in lousy neighborhoods or areas that may be exceptionally prone to looting. I can imagine situations in which being heavily armed could be of benefit. In those cases I think the preferred precaution should be to remove oneself from them, wherever possible.

-- mil (millenium@yahoo.com), December 28, 1999.

You're not completely alone. We went rural and have had guns on our list since last Fall. We made the same decision you did for exactly the same reason. We stand little chance - in the dark, probably, and reacting on adrenaline.

-- Also Sitting (daffy@wb.com), December 28, 1999.

I'd go for the guns myself.

If you have a gun in your own home you are at a significant advantage to a stranger that is trying to beat down your door.

1. You know all the rooms of your house.. The corners, the viewpoints, etc.

2. Breaking into a house could hurt the perpetrator.. Going through glass or a steel reinforced door hurts (I would suppose).

3. The bad guy just doesen't know if there is some guy like me on the other side. 6'2" 250 lbs. Cav Scout that rated expert in the military.

Terminate with extreme prejudice.

-- Bryce (bryce@nospam.com), December 28, 1999.

Sitting Duck--

The anti-gun mindset deals in emotion, while the pro-gun mindset deals in fact. Here are two facts:

Australia banned guns, and was rewarded with a 40% increase in violent crime.

Switzerland is the most pro-gun nation on earth, and has virtually no violent crime...nearly everyone owns a firearm there, and shooting is a national hobby.

One of my favorite bumper stickers reads "Criminals prefer unarmed vicitims". That says it all.

Another fact: Two million crimes are thwarted each year by armed citizens, most without a shot being fired. Most criminals follow the path of least resistance, usually not the path that puts them face to face with an armed would-be victim. Often the presence of a firearm is enough to stop a criminal in his tracks. A burglar's life is more valuable to him than your DVD player.

Of course, there are the wackos that aren't going to stop for anything, and self-defense is your only recourse. In any event, better to have the gun and not need it than vice-versa.

Buy a gun; a simple to operate .38 caliber revolver with a 4" barrel costs less than $200, and you can move up to a more powerful firearm after you become comfortable with the basics. As you pointed out, it is good to take a class on safety & self defense. Visit a local range and test out a few handguns; the range personnel I have dealt with were always extremely helpful, and were happy to share their expertise.

I think you will feel safer when you become a responsible gun owner.

-- staying safe (with@my.glock), December 28, 1999.

Argh!

Sitting Duck, if Mr. Terminator has a gun and you show him a little food, he will kill you and your family, as well as any refugees you have adopted, just on the wet dream that he'll find your stash! Can you say "sharks with blood in the water"???

I spent my pitance on food, and have no gun, so have thought about this OFTEN.

Two options if you are unarmed: Fight or run. Period. This fantasy of "winning over" a would-be assassin WILL get you killed!!! You need to put yourself in his shoes, and think like him, if you want to formulate strategies...

Even if he looks like the friendly old Bo Bobby Ray from down the street, after a month of hunger those Vietnam flashbacks start kickin in, and he ain't Bo Bobby Ray no more! think rabid dogs...

I plan to pry a gun out of the first cold hard dead body I see. If it comes to my seeing a cold dead body, then the situation is beyond reason and beyond charity. If time permits, I'll go for his body armour too. I got the ammo before the oversight occured to you:)

Heaven forbid someone with a gun in that senario gets lulled into my web with the promise of a meal...

-- Hokie (nn@va.com), December 28, 1999.

The most fearful sound in the world if you are in a dark room not knowing your surroundings is that of a gun being "Cocked," you know it is ready to fire, and who is the target, take a guess?

-- Notforlong (Fsur439@aol.com), December 28, 1999.

Dear Sitting Duck:

Yes, you are. "staying safe with@my.glock" gives the best advice. Also remember that the mere presence of a gun *in your hands* will dissuade many would be thugs.

It's a little late for training, but with a *DOUBLE ACTION* revolver you don't need much more than to constantly keep in mind that it will shoot if the trigger is pulled and point it accordingly.

I.e. never point a gun at anyone you do not intend to shoot.

"The world's greatest excuse pales in the face of mediocre performance." Desert (Yes, you may quote me.) Dave

-- David Craig (DesertDave@aol.com), December 28, 1999.

i have studied up on home defense and have made my home more physically secure for y2k. plus am armed and trained (well, as best as i can so far). the only thing i am missing is a dog. you are right when you say these things alone are a deterrent to crime because criminals take the "route of least resistance". however, do any of you have some sort of symbol posted that indicates your support the "use of firearms"???? would you recommend that or not? i mean like an nra sticker or something? or is that warning one that will give them the advantage over you because they already know you will defend yourself?

-- tt (cuddluppy@nowhere.com), December 28, 1999.

Sitting Duck,

1) Establish a Neighborhood Watch Patrol. The more involved, the better.

2) Establish an "Early Warning Signal" such as a boat horn or other loud sound. Train everyone in your neighborhood on how to respond, should they hear this warning signal.

3) Define a minimal perimeter around your neighborhood that will be patrolled 24/7 by the watch patrol.

4) As soon as an unidentifiable person/stranger/group heading your way is spotted by the patrol, the warning must be immediately sounded.

4) Do not allow strangers to enter this minimal perimeter armmed. They must check their weapons "at the door". Otherwise, they are not allowed to enter.

5) Should they attempt to force their way in, back-up (arriving asap from the loud warning signal) will be ready/on site to deal with them.

6) Pre-designate the entry points to your neighborhood. These entry points must be protected by a secondary line of protection such as booby traps and other types of physical disabling "surprises" of any would-be intruders. Your goal is to detain, not to permanently physically harm.

7) Randomly rotate which entry points are open/closed on any given day/night. No more than two should be open at any given time. Neighborhood Patrol must direct/divert strangers to these entry points.

It's the unexpected that will do the most harm. Have a plan. Practice. Review. Plan some more.

There is safety in numbers. Get to know your neighbors. Hope this helps get you past thinking "there is no hope" for the unarmed, prepared.

Intelligence beats brute force, every time. Know what's happening before it reaches you. Once it's at your doorstep, it's too late. Somebody is probably going to die.

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), December 28, 1999.

If you are sticking with pepper spray idea, get some extra bleach and or ammonia. Also regular cayenne pepper from the store. If you aren't using a gun, always focus on the eyes of an assailant. If you want to be humane, then cut it with water. Never combine bleach and ammonia without recognizing you have a crude form of mustard gas.

Of course once the altercation occurs, you either need help yourself or you need to address the question of what to do with a disabled and yelping person outside your door. That's the part nobody ever talks about: if you shoot and grossly wound, but it isn't fatal, yet victim cannot travel or move, do you, a)shoot a wounded person? b) dig a shallow grave and simply "wait"? or c)treat 'em and then dump em off somewhere. Things get pretty hairy when you think through the possibilities, including meeting the rest of their "family" and "friends". Best to consider as a last resort only. Probably happens less often than in the movies. It can get really complicated as you think it through.

I like dried poison ivy leaves(retains potency for 2 years)--good to "spike" a roll or two of T.P. with, if you decide to be a compliant "donor" to one who believes he has intimidated you. Many shelf items are suitable and the imagination can render a multitude of ways to make an intruder wish he never met you. Some have "time delayed reactions" if you decide to act like you are complying. The best hint is to start reading caution labels on stuff; you would be amazed at the multitude of storebought foods and various cleaning products and their potentials. I have certain items along with the remedy stocked. Once item is "administered" they have "x" amount of time to comply and get remedy or suffer. It can give you a great edge. And it can help you innovate when intruder is in between you and your gun. A great way to roll with the punches.

Regards,

-- (He Who) Rolls with Punches (JoeZi@aol.com), December 28, 1999.

"Once item is 'administered' they have 'x' amount of time to comply and get remedy or suffer."

Another way of looking at it:

"Once item is 'administered' they have 'x' amount of time to aim at your head, cock the hammer, and say 'OK, a**h*le, give it up.'"

Pulling a stunt like that on an *armed* thug -- while *you* are unarmed -- is a great way of validating Darwin.

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), December 28, 1999.

Since you brought him up, look what appeasement got Chamberlain. If I had pepper spray that had the range and accuracy of a 9mm round, then I'd use it too.

Chances are, if someone with a gun confronts someone without one, they get what they want. One way or another. Your chances of ending up dead are much better if you stick with non-lethal force. If it were me, getting shot in the eyes with bleach or pepper spray would merely enrage me. The possibility of shooting blind for self protection would be likely.

-- Someone (inthe@know.com), December 28, 1999.

Sitting Duck - I am a normally peaceful faily well off citizen, who has prepared and may make it through out here in the woods just fine. But let me tell you that if I were hungary, cold, thirsty and in the mist of Y2K. I would kill you and your family to eat, if I had to roast your tender young children over an open fire. Is your wife pretty? I am and will stay well armed. If it gets to dog eat dog, be the eater. Colt made everyone equal.

-- can't (notany@later.com), December 28, 1999.

Cant,

Might doesn't make right. Just ask Hitler. The most intelligent will survive and eventually reproduce and thrive. Just ask the dinosuars.

Money and guns doesn't = success. The ability to adapt and survive, does. People working together to produce food, water, clothing and shelter. These will be the eventual winners.

Isolationism is a dead end, literally.

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), December 28, 1999.

Predator sighting.

Yuck.

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), December 28, 1999.

Baseball bat (wood) with tweleve 6 inch spikes (nails). Drill small random holes through the business end of the bat, coat the nails with liquid nails glue, drive them through the holes in the bat, clean excess glue off the spiked ends of the nails, let dry. Aim for the head or groin (ouch) I would still rather have my shotgun with 00 buckshot, but a spiked baseball bat will inflict some pain and damage in a break in situation.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), December 28, 1999.

Dear duck. I'm heavily armed, and always have been, but I got something here I need to relate, and you need to think on. I got a police scanner a couple of weeks ago, and the third night or so I was up at two in the morning, surfing and listening to the scanner in the background. The dispatcher comes on and starts calling out car number, in the background you can hear a woman and a little girl in hysterics. I mean literally in hysterics. Some thug was trying to kick in the door of their rural home, her husband was working nights, and they were home alone and unarmed. Three county cruisers responded, none were closer than ten miles to her house, and she was so shook up she couldn't give them coherent directions to her home, which was rural on an oiltop road. After what seemed like fifteen minutes the dispatcher finally got one of the cars vectored to the home using the 911 map, but the suspect heard the car coming and escaped. Now if 911 had been down, which is very likely next week, or the power out, I don't like to think what her husband would have found on his arrival home the next morning. If you could have heard the sheer terror in that womans voice, and the screaming of her child, you would be on your way to the gun store right now.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), December 28, 1999.

Wolves and streetscum use the same strategy. One gets in your face as distractor. Others come from behind to knock you in the head or hamstring you.

Lots of luck with your pepper spray and ammonia and all that. and what of your wife and kids?? Who will protect them? or perhaps you don't mind if your wife is raped by AIDS-infected streetscum??

That aint the Avon lady who will be at your door if TSHTF.

I have 45ACP and 3006. They give me the option of meaningful resistance.

-- RT (Rngfr49@yahoo.com), December 28, 1999.

-- RT (Rngfr49@yahoo.com), December 28, 1999.

Sitting Duck,

Your mentality reminds me of European Politicians in 1933-1939. The most infamous phrase that pops to mind is "Peace in our time." Consider the events, then what happened when nations tried to appease an heavily armed madman.

-- Phread (lurking@y2k.com), December 28, 1999.

A few months ago a similar thread had a participant give the following opinion, " you sir are a coward. You make a decision to not properly arme and train yourself in the use of a firearm to protect yourself, your wife and your young children from the murderers, rapists and criminals of this world. You denounce the use of firearms as something cruel and ugly and beneath you. Yet, at the first sign of trouble, you the coward instead call someone else and demand that they use their gun to protect you, your wife and your young children. The police know how hard, mean and murderous the criminals of the world are, that is why they use firearms and teach their families how to use firearms to protect their homes. I despise cowards and I feel so sorry for your wife and young children that thay have you, a coward, as thier father."

-- (iop@hotmail.com), December 28, 1999.

If you can out think me, I probably deserve to be ruled by you.

If you're physically stronger or carry a firearm or other type weapon of mass destruction, I can still prevent you from harming me or my family, and do it in a humane and civilized manner in which no permanent physical harm is done to you. No matter how determined you may be to take what I have and/or harm me, my family or my neighbors, we more determined to prevent you from doing just that.

Truly civilized humans do not kill other humans. Truly civilized humans understand that "An eye for and eye..." leaves everyone blind.

There is a better way. Think. Your brain is your greatest asset. Move forward in your methods of protection and prevention. Barbarian methods do not succeed in the long run. Never have, never will.

You can't kill everyone that scares you or threatens you. That is the outcome you speak of. Unless you evolve to understand what I am saying, you will never know peace or freedom. You will always have enemies.

Prevention is the NEW GAME IN TOWN.

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), December 28, 1999.

I use to carry mail, and I have knocked on a lot of doors for accountable mail signatures and all. I have seen a lot of signs on peoples's doors. The best one yet is this one and I think it is short and to the point. "This home is guarded by Smith&Wesson three days and nights a week, guess which day or night that is."

-- Notforlong (Fsur439@aol.com), December 28, 1999.

And how many Germans could "out think and out wit" Hitler ? How many Russians could "think" their way out of the Russian revolution and the following oppression ? How many of those, my friend, were able to escape these trajedies because they could rationalize and were, in their own mind, humanitarians ? Don't try to feed me this garbage. And further more, you are goofy to employ this type of mindset.

Diplomacy and Humanity have their places, but not in the face of deadly force. WAKE UP !

-- Givemeabreak (reality@home.now), December 28, 1999.

Givemeabreak,

"In the face of deadly force" is what you are preventing. You have to control the situation from the start. Your strategy is to never reach the point of deadly force...and if you do, then you have already lost before the first shot is fired.

If you run away from danger, you are a coward and doomed to be run over from then on.

If you stand and physically fight, you lose your humanity and become an animal, making you no more intelligent than the one you are fighting.

But, if you stand your ground and deny the aggressor by out thinking the aggressor, without physically harming the aggressor, you have retained your humanity as well as prevented the aggressor from harming you or your family.

Is there another scenario I left out? Is there a better way to resolve this issue? If so, please teach me.

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), December 28, 1999.

Prayer is good, too. Forget macho. Look, yes, the price of being wrong is being dead. We are all going to die eventually, anyway. I don't want to kill someone on the way out. We might all die soon from disease or whatever. The system looks to be going down. There will be survivors, but it won't be much fun.

-- Mara (MaraWayne@aol.com), December 28, 1999.

Several thoughts come to mind...

"I believe it is peace in our time" Neville Chamberlain after he disgraced himself and the UK at the 1938 Munich conference. We all know how that ended up.

"Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six" Anonymous but truly great bumper sticker.

"You can live down anything but death" French Foreign Legion.

If you or anyone else thinks you are going to turn back some violent intruder with an MRE, a can of soda and/or a prayer, then perhaps you are not serious about surviving...anything.

Oh, there is one more point to ponder. Have no idea who said it... "In any confrontation, the stupid man is the one who brings a knife to a gunfight."

I wish you all the luck in the world. You need it.

-- Irving (irvingf@myremarq.com), December 28, 1999.

To all the pacifistic idealists posting on this thread, I have only one question to ask: have you ever tried to reason with someone who was raping you? I have...and it doesn't work! I am now NRA-trained, and ready to protect myself from any future predators. Grow up, guys! The world isn't Disneyland or Oz. Real state troopers and a judge teach courses at the NRA's range, and THEY have seen "the real world," and they would be shaking their heads in disbelief at your naivete. I hope that you are single and childless, or may God help your dependents if society goes down. (And I'd hate to bore you with what has happened at our condo complex from drug gangs across the street in subsidized housing, and what the county's "Gangbusters Unit" told our Homeowners Association about their mentality. I will say they said of the nearby one, "They were trained in their country [civil war] to kill their own people. They'd shoot you in a heartbeat.)

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), December 28, 1999.

Elaine Seavey,

I am a "Free Thinker". This is anything but a "pacifistic idealist".

The technology currently exists to prevent the rape you suffered. If this technology were further developed and then correctly applied, rape, murder, auto accidents, drug abuse, domestic violence, incest, alcoholisim, hate crimes, on the job accidents, etc.,...even wars could all be prevented from taking place. Prevented BEFORE they take place.

I'm talking of ACTING to prevent before the threat exists. I do not accept the contention that guns solve anything. I am searching for a practical, acceptable solution that will proactively solve these problems BEFORE they take place, instead of the current mindset of reacting to them during or immediately after the fact.

This is the only way to intelligently address the problem. Maybe we, as a species, are not ready to move forward, discovering the wonderful surprises that awaits us just beyond where we currently are. If not, then we will surely repeat history and suffer again the painful lessons we should have already learned. This is where we are headed should we succumb to those who suggest "Shoot to kill" is the correct...no...the only viable response. I disagree, with every ounce of my being.

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), December 28, 1999.

after reviewing this thread i have come to the conclusion that there is one statement that applies to this topic.

"YOU CAN ONLY REASON WITH REASONABLE PEOPLE!!!"

since the person who would invade your home, do physical violence to you and your loved ones, steal your food, would not by any stretch of the imagination be considered reasonable then i guess that leaves reasoning with that person out.

as far as "out-thinking" someone in an unreasonable situation, those that think in emergent situations usually die, you must react, the concept of thinking means that one has to entertain the pros and cons of each action, very time consuming, time is a very precious commodity in an emergency. while you are out-thinking the bad guy he most likely will be blowing your so very powerfull and arrogant brains out.

as far as fear of guns, guns are tools, are you afraid of a hammer or a saw? there is no need to fear an inanimate object.

as a man you are charged with the safety of your wife and children, i would lay my life on the line for them any day, why would you not have the tools to protect them, because of some irrational fear. you have provided food and shelter for them, would you have some brigand evict them from your house, allow them to starve in the cold because you would not take the necessary steps to protect them? if you answer yes to this question then you are not an honorable man but a sniveling coward, and your wife and children deserve better.

the rock

-- the rock (granite@igneus.com), December 28, 1999.

GoldReal--

I don't know how else to put this...you are pissing me off.

What "technology" are you thinking of? Photo radar in every American's living room? An I.D. chip under the skin in our foreheads or right hands? A black chevy suburban on every corner complete with shotgun microphones and a squad of shock troops?

Why on earth is the liberal viewpoint always skewed towards sacrificing hard earned money to a bloated, inefficient government in exchange for "protection"? I define that as extortion, a protection racket if you will. If I give a dollar to uncle Sam, and he gives me 54 cents worth of value in return, who is the fool in that scenario?

Please wake up and take responsibility for your own safety, the government is NOT here to protect you. I repeat, NOT!

-- staying safe (with@my.glock), December 28, 1999.

the rock,

[YOU CAN ONLY REASON WITH REASONABLE PEOPLE!!!"]

Who said you can? I didn't, and have never suggested anyone should.

[as far as "out-thinking" someone in an unreasonable situation, those that think in emergent situations usually die, you must react, the concept of thinking means that one has to entertain the pros and cons of each action, very time consuming, time is a very precious commodity in an emergency. while you are out-thinking the bad guy he most likely will be blowing your so very powerfull and arrogant brains out.]

You haven't comprehended a word I've written.

You never reach the point of needing to react. The situation is never allowed to reach that level. The situation that would lead to a confrontation is redirected before it has a chance to develop or mature to that level.

Why wait until the act is taking place to act to prevent it? Why not act before the act takes place? Like taking medicine to prevent sickness before it strikes. Like immunization. But in this case, it would be called...get this now...safization.

Is not violence a disease? It most assuredly is. It's an over reaction to a human event, leading to harm of another person or persons by the one overacting. We can identify and cure people prone to acting aggressively against others or we can permanantly isolate those individuals from ourselves without isolating ourselves or them from society.

[as far as fear of guns, guns are tools, are you afraid of a hammer or a saw? there is no need to fear an inanimate object.]

Tools are used to enhance life. Weapons are used to destroy life. You do err. Guns are weapons, not tools. A tool may be misused as a weapon, but a gun is a gun, useful for one thing only (unless you're on the moon or in zero gravity at which time it could be used as a crude propulsion device.)

[as a man you are charged with the safety of your wife and children, i would lay my life on the line for them any day, why would you not have the tools to protect them, because of some irrational fear. you have provided food and shelter for them, would you have some brigand evict them from your house, allow them to starve in the cold because you would not take the necessary steps to protect them? if you answer yes to this question then you are not an honorable man but a sniveling coward, and your wife and children deserve better.]

Uh, what I suggest is using your brain instead of your brawn to rectify the situation.

Staying Safe, [I don't know how else to put this...you are pissing me off.]

Hmmm, you're not pissing me off. Now, who is having the intelligent reaction, me or you? Who is having the barbarian reaction, me or you?

[What "technology" are you thinking of? Photo radar in every American's living room? An I.D. chip under the skin in our foreheads or right hands? A black chevy suburban on every corner complete with shotgun microphones and a squad of shock troops?]

How about genetic therapy to reduce and eventually eliminate physical aggression in humans?

How about designing robots to serve our requirements.

How about an additional layer of protective skin to protect us from physical harm.

How about a hundred other ways to peacefully achieve what you suggest can only be achieved through shooting someone.

[Why on earth is the liberal viewpoint always skewed towards sacrificing hard earned money to a bloated, inefficient government in exchange for "protection"? I define that as extortion, a protection racket if you will. If I give a dollar to uncle Sam, and he gives me 54 cents worth of value in return, who is the fool in that scenario?]

Do you like safe food? Thank the USDA.

Do you like safe medications? Thank the FDA.

Do you like safe working conditions? Thank OSHA.

Do you like safe products? Thank......(oh forget it)

NEXT!

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), December 28, 1999.

If I lived in an area that I believed would go violent, I would definitely have firearms... With training, and practice, one can become proficient. However, as with any weapon, if you don't know how to use it, you run the risk of having it taken away from you and used against you.

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), December 28, 1999.

This thread has gotten long enough that my reply probably will be too late in the day to be seen. But, you asked.

I do not own a gun. I harbor no illusions about the fact that dangerous predatory humans exist, and if society goes chaotic, the number of such people will increase. I may meet one someday.

So, why do I not own a gun? Simple. A gun is a tool. You can't hammer a nail straight until you practise. I do not have the time to master a gun.

Call it an excuse. Tell me I am jeopardizing my family. I will reply, nuts to you. I spend the largest part of my time and energies dealing with very complex family issues, including plenty of life-and-death medical situations. I repeat, I don't have time to learn how to use a gun. And I sure don't want to buy a gun only to have it turned on me or my family, BECAUSE I WASN'T TRAINED WITH IT.

Whatever happens, you won't hear me blaming myself. Not every path is open all the time. Not everything that looks like a choice is as simple as yes or no. If you can't understand that, keep your mouth shut.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), December 28, 1999.

Brian; There is not a lot of training involved in learning to drop a shell into a single shot shotgun and point it a the door. You don't onw a gun because you choose not to own one. Anybody can operate a firearm well enough to protect their house... so long as they pick the right tool. You choose not to use such a tool, fine. Don't blame it on not being able to learn to use it. You see if you are making "all sorts of other life and death decisions" and you can't learn to safely operate a single shot shotgun in about 90 seconds, well... It is not going to matter because you are going to get one of the other decisions wrong anyway. You choose not to use a firearm because you fear them.

-- (...@.......), December 28, 1999.

Goldreal- you really DON'T GET IT about violence.

Other guys stuff- [YOU CAN ONLY REASON WITH REASONABLE PEOPLE!!!"]

GR- "Who said you can? I didn't, and have never suggested anyone should."

That is a truism, a fact. If someone does not want or is not capable of being reasonable or logical, then you CAN NOT reason with them.

"Is not violence a disease? It most assuredly is. It's an over reaction to a human event, leading to harm of another person or persons by the one overacting. We can identify and cure people prone to acting aggressively against others or we can permanantly isolate those individuals from ourselves without isolating ourselves or them from society."

No violence is NOT a disease; unless you consider humanity a 'disease on the face of the planet.' Violence, just like life and death, happens. Fact. Learn it. Understand it. Deal with it. (Don't hide from it.)

Who will be doing the controlling and deciding of who is dangerous?? What will you do when your carefully controlled situation encounters someone with the means and desire to commit violence?? Ask the Jews what they did during the 1940's...and look at them now.

Oh and "Genetic Therapy" LOL...that is funny. You want to take away the human race's means of self-defense. I would postulate that you are a (currently) living example of darwinism in action...

"You haven't comprehended a word I've written."

Yep, you need to rethink the WHOLE thread. Or else crawl away, hide and die.

-- Brent James Bushardt (brentj@webt.com), December 28, 1999.

Moreover the argument that "somebody might take your gun and use it against you" is naieve. They only take it from you and use it against you if you don't have the guts to pull the trigger.

If you don't have what it takes to pull the trigger by all means don't get a firearm because the bad guy will take the one you have and try to use it on me or someone else. No point in getting someone else killed because you don't have the courage to put down a criminal.

If society becomes violent, and you survive the first wave. I will be happy to trade one of my weapons to you for perhaps a ten fold or twenty fold profit. About that time you will be looking real hard for a firearm, having well resolved in your mind any doubt that you could pull the trigger.

Courage is the ability to stand before your enemy and forgive him for killing you as he does it.

Cowardice is the ability to watch your children die because you have not got what it takes to pull the trigger.

If you haven't figured this out yet, your preps are wasted.

-- (...@.......), December 28, 1999.

GoldReal,

I agree 100% that violence is no solution, much less a rational one. What right-thinking man would ever apply deadly force to another being, even under duress.

The application of deadly force is used only as last resort. 2000 years of common law affirms the legitimacy of the use of such final solutions. Anyone who applies deadly force indiscriminately in the wholly natural act of self-defense is little better than the criminal who incited the need for deadly force in the first place.

It's both a common sentient response and an age-old moral dilemma - fight or flee. It's the dilemma every motile creature on the face of the earth experiences daily. Man, being, in theory, an advanced rational being, has debated the philosophical and moral implications of fight vs. flight to great length. Yet, in the end, it is up to each individual, as it should be, to decide upon the proper course of action as the situation requires.

You have a predilection towards universal disarmament. A fine sentiment indeed, but unworkable with the current state of human development, largely aided and abetted by the amoral corporate, entertainment, faux-political, unsustainable consumption machine.

You envision a futuristic technological solution to the need for self- defense. The future may bring such wonders, but be not so naive to not realize that no technology has ever been developed that cannot be neutralized or turned against its users. In any event, we have to deal with the here and now as we patiently await the future.

You may choose to entertain thoughts of a future nirvana somewhere where all men are peaceful and/or easily neutralized at the flick of a switch - a sort of advanced civilization the Star Trek crew would stumble upon now and again. The rest of us are living here on Earth, in its present reality, having no greater wish than to be at peace with the world, yet fully aware of the dangers this age presents. Please, don't impinge upon our right of self-defense as you cast about in utopian fantasy.

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), December 28, 1999.

Elaine; I am sorry to hear of your suffering. Goldbug; you are an idiot.... "The technology now exists....". Yep, Goldbug, that seems to be precisely the problem doesn't it? Your premis is that technology is going to save us.... look around you.

-- (...@.......), December 28, 1999.

I hate guns, and would never buy one on my own. I figure there must be a better way.

Three of us share the rent on this old farmhouse, and one of us is a GI local police officer. I'm kinda glad he's around. <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), December 28, 1999.

Hello, tt: Here's something you may find useful. A 4"x5" sticker that you can place in a window (we put it on our kitchen door window) that says: "The Owner of This Property is Armed and Prepared to Protect Life, Liberty, and Property From Criminal Attack. There is nothing inside worth risking your life for."

You can view and order the sticker by going to the bottom of this page: http://www.saf.org/books.html, which is published by the Second Amendment Foundation. Their phone is: (800) 426-4302. They have numerous other interesting and informative publications that you may also want to consider.

We found the window sticker to be a real attention-getter. Really sobers-up those delivery boys and infrequent visitors.

You may have a gun and not need it...if so, nothing lost. But if you ever do need one and don't have one, you'll be in deep doo-doo, and so will those for whose safety and well-being you are responsible; and you'll have no one to blame but yourself if any harm comes to them because of your knee-jerk attitude toward self-defense.

-- Norm Harrold (nharrold@tymewyse.com), December 28, 1999.

Brent James Bushardt,

[Violence, just like life and death, happens. Fact. Learn it. Understand it. Deal with it.]

Can you give me one legitimate example of something in this universe that just "happens" without a first cause?

I'm not here to be correct, I'm here to enlighten as to what is correct. Should you ever see the wisdom in embracing these new and more effective methods of dealing with old problems, you will start to live a better life with less conflict and stress.

However, should you choose to continue on as is, you will make it more difficult for those of us who indeed are moving forward to new and better ways of living. We will eventually have to deal with you, on our terms, of course.

Now do you see how it works? This is a perfect example. You can't harm me because I have out thought you and structured the environment in such a way that prevents you from "infecting" me, no matter HOW HARD you try.

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), December 28, 1999.

>> You choose not to use a firearm because you fear them. <<

Pat answer. Wrong. But I hope it made you feel better to think you know more than you do.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), December 28, 1999.

Well said, Elaine. GoldReal reminds me of the many truly-naive academics I've met who have never been "in extremis", and never had to face up to a real, in-your-face, life-threatening situation, yet know exactly how they would defuse such a confrontation. You have faced that terror, and you learned a very hard lesson, as have many other women. I commend you on your objectivity and common sense. I'm real glad that GoldReal is not responsible for my safety...or yours.

-- Norm Harrold (nharrold@tymewyse.com), December 28, 1999.

Nathan,

First, let me compliment you on your elegant writing style.

As for the content, it is flawed logic. Who other than us makes the laws we live by?

We make our own rules. We choose to abide by them. We choose to be subservient. We choose to rebel. We choose to accept. We choose to reject. We choose to try new ideas and methods. We choose to follow the status quo. We choose to yearn for nostalgic times gone by.

If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got.

No, it's not okay for Joe 6 pack, who gets drunk once a month, who beats his wife twice a year, who whips his children with a belt because he's stressed out and doesn't have the knowledge or the skills to have a rational, meaningful conversation with his kid, when his kid needs it the most, to own a gun.

No, it's not okay for 14 children to be killed by guns in the United States every single day of every single year.

There is a better way and if we choose to reject it then we deserve what we get. I for one, want better and will never stop working towards that goal. And if I have to drag you kicking and screaming along the way, then so be it. When all is said and done, you will look back and say, "I'm glad we don't live like THAT any more. How barbaric."

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), December 28, 1999.

My apologies, tt; my "knee jerk" comment was not directed at you.

-- Norm Harrold (nharrold@tymewyse.com), December 28, 1999.

Maybe I'M not all there,but i feel if someone wants to take away anything i have worked for,loved,owned.They will have to pry that gun,knife,or whatever i can use out of my lifeless hands.My family mean more to me than anything else.Granted i would help all the people i could,but i would die defending my family,from anyone who would think they could just bust my door in and take form them.maybe you don't believe in firearms and thier destuctive powers,but maybe you need to give them a second thought. If money is an issue,a brand new single barrel shotgun only costs around a hundred bucks. pretty cheap way of saving your family.

-- Harry Huges (daddyo57@hotmail.com), December 28, 1999.

GoldReal,

May you find yourself in the world you envision.

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), December 28, 1999.

Nathan,

Thank you. Hope to see you there as well.

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), December 28, 1999.

Goldreal-

"Can you give me one legitimate example of something in this universe that just "happens" without a first cause?"

I say sure, the universe itself "just happened". As far as we know it did. Or if you are religious (doubtfull) then God "just happened".

Where is your proof that violence is a disease?? Let's take the Lion who is eating the gazelle he just chased down and killed. You can walk up to him and ask him to be nice and peacefull. You can explain to him that you will feed and care for him...but I seriously doubt that he'll listen.

How is it that you cannot fathom that we cannot protect against violence with/out eventually resorting to it.

"Now do you see how it works? This is a perfect example. You can't harm me because I have out thought you and structured the environment in such a way that prevents you from "infecting" me, no matter HOW HARD you try."

You are forgetting that I DON'T WANT TO HURT YOU. Nature will take care of that....Darwinism again.

-- Brent James Bushardt (brentj@webt.com), December 28, 1999.

GoldReal--

I am exiting this debate. I retract my previous insult, and pray that you are never harmed by anyone; that is not how I want to prove my point. I will close with the following.

14 killed children each day... Well, let's look at another often mentioned statisic: 2.5 million (my first post was conservative) crimes are thwarted by private gun owners (this does not include police officers) each year. Let's assume that only 2% of those criminals would have killed a child had they not been stopped: 50,000 children saved yearly, 139 per day, almost ten times as many as you claim are taken yearly by gun accidents, etc.

If I could magically change the hearts and souls of my fellow humans, making them all love peace and liberty, therefore making self-defense obsolete, I would do it without hesitation. The fact is I can't, you can't, and they won't. It will never happen.

I will continue to own firearms. The math is in my favor. I respect your right to remain defenseless, and ask that you respect my constitutional right to protect myself.

Happy new year. May you come through it unscathed.

-- staying safe (with@my.glock), December 28, 1999.

Goldreal,

If your mentality is so effective then why hasn't it been employed on on multi-national level ? Hmm ? Or does it only work for yourself ? Power to ya if it does. In my opinion, you have been way too sheltered. I mean, just think about. We could surrender all our defensive weapons and rely entirely on our wit, intellect and foresight. What a concept !!! We'd have Ivan shaking in his subs.

I can here you now, "Uh, Adolph ? Let's talk about this. Do you think for one minute that you really want to go into Poland ? C'mon now bud. What have you got to gain by this ? Hmm ? I know that you are a rational man, and definitely have more wits about you that what you display here today. So, in light of this, why don't we just put this behind us and remember this famous saying, "can't we all just get along" ?

Goldreal, you are definitely "my hero". You are, "THE MAN" ! LOL It amazes me every day that people who actually believe this kind of rhetoric manage to somewhat function and live in our society. I would welcome you to be the first to put the sign in your yard announcing to all the world, "THIS HOME IS FIREARM FREE". But, I would venture a guess you haven't the "nads" to be that convinced of your own spin, would ya ? OVER, AND OUT.

-- Rob (maxovrdrv51@hotmail.com), December 28, 1999.

Sitting Duck... I, too, felt thrust into this dilemma. I would die for my children, as most people would. I am just not so sure I want to kill anyone. No...make that...I do NOT want to kill anyone. Be it a robber, a rapist, whatever. I do not think it my place to end the life of another human being. There is more involved than just staying alive on this planet. For life on earth is short. But I am more concerned with what happens AFTER this life ends. We could all go any time. In many ways. Why do we fear death so?

During my most panic-stricken thoughts about y2k, I considered the purchase of a firearm. But I know that I could not. I happen to think that an intruder may feel forced to shoot you if you have a gun.

Anyway...a gun is just not the answer for me. I think I would feel LESS safe with a gun in my home.

I will defend myself and my family, but not with lethal force. I have purchased some pepper spray and a stun baton. I considered keeping a baseball bat by the front door. I will do a lot of praying. Afterall....My God is stronger than any enemy or potential killer. Life is short and we all have to die sometime. OK enough of my waffling.

Peace to all....Cin

-- cin (cinlooo@aol.com), December 28, 1999.

GOLDREAL

I think you should be the first to post a sign on your door that reads "this home has no firearms or weapons of any kind. Upon forced entry you will be rationed with swiftly." WAKE THE HELL UP PEOPLE. Your fate rests in your own hands.

-- loaded for bear (are you stupid@or what?.net), December 28, 1999.