You know, what has hurt me the most during these last 2 years is finding out how rude and cruel many people are. (Also have found out how wonderful many are too, but that's not the subject of my question). You see it a lot on this list. Part of that is the impersonal nature of email and forums and listserves, but it still tells you a lot about a person. If they are rude and cruel here, real life is probably that way too. Why can't people just accept what you say or reject what you say without becoming emotionally involved in proving you wrong. I guess that takes a strong ego. Just to be comfortable where you are without convincing anyone of anything - a lot of that convincing goes on from Christians too.

Also I found a lot of judgment of me by strangers - people who had never even met me or attended one of my meetings judging where I was coming from in this.

Sometimes I actually think we are evolving as a species and becoming more enlightened and then things like this come up and people show their true colors. Just very disappointed....but then again always did have high expectations of myself and others.

-- Sheri (wncy2k@nccn.net), December 26, 1999

Answers

I'm not trying to convince you of ANYTHING regarding Jesus. But I HAVE A RIGHT TO SPEAK ABOUT HIM. JUST as you have a right NOT to speak about Him if you so desire. YOU are a believer in NOTHING - but it's still a BELIEF. I am a believer in Christ - Cristo -. He ain't a religion. And I LOVE Jesus on the computer. And I FLAT OUT love Him in person.

-- DB (tomG@h.com), December 26, 1999.

Sheri, exactly :-) Not many new questions come up anymore, but you've hit a vein load here.

Scary how nasty, mean, petty, intrusive, disruptive, and ruthless many humanimals can be. And this while everything running purrrfectly.

It's still the Code.

But it's the out-of-control mean streak in the humanimals which will push the Scale of Misery off the slippery slope.

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), December 26, 1999.

I'm not trying to convince you of ANYTHING regarding Jesus. But I HAVE A RIGHT TO SPEAK ABOUT HIM. JUST as you have a right NOT to speak about Him if you so desire. YOU are a believer in NOTHING - but it's still a BELIEF. I am a believer in Christ - Cristo -. He ain't a religion. And I LOVE Jesus on the computer. And I FLAT OUT love Him in person.

Whoa, Tom, my man, calm down! Never win anyone over to your side with that attitude. Perhaps we should keep the religious rants to a minimum here. I would imagine, if Jesus is lurking here, he is cringing also.

I have found sometimes that the man with the most passionate argument has the weakest faith in the question at hand.

-- gary elliott (gelliott@real.on.ca), December 26, 1999.

No, Gary, Jesus WOULDN'T be cringing because HE is not a Cringer. He would tell you this to your face:"You try to look like saintly men but underneath those pious robes of yours are hearts besmirched with every sort of hypocrisy and sin."

You are confusing Jesus with a Milque-toast sap, as Paul Milne calls it. Paul, Here is the thread you were looking for.

-- DB (templeofmyGod@Heaven.com), December 26, 1999.

Yes, proves my point! You are screaming anger and hate not love and peace. Why would I ever choose that? I've been there and it wasn't not about love and peace

-- Sheri (wncy2k@nccn.net), December 26, 1999.

You just don't get it, do you, DB. So sorry.

-- Sheri (wncy2k@nccn.net), December 26, 1999.

I don't feel as though I have really been "hurt," but I have discovered some things that I will try to change for the better. In fact this whole experience has been very enriching, and I feel I've learned a lot. Those who have attempted to hurt others have really only hurt themselves. Those who have allowed themselves to be hurt by others have really only hurt themselves, because they chose to be hurt by what others said. This is called individual responsibilty, and if we can all learn to live this way we will love each other and love life.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 26, 1999.

Sheri,

I've only been hurt by one thing,I guess...the King of Spain hasn't asked me to mud wrestle!!!Still I live in hope.

What has surprised me though is that nearly everyone I thought I knew very well turned out to be DGI's.These are all well educated professionals & they think I am completely round the twist,prepping.It makes me question my judgement & theirs!

In contrast one of the nicest things about prepping has been the responses from members of the Forum most of whom seem to be American.If you think you are one of the few of in the States,you need to come to England to really feel unique !The support & knowledge so freely shared here has been a GodSend.

-- Chris (Tina) (griffen@globalnet.co.uk), December 26, 1999.

Hi Chris (Tina)! Yes, I know what you mean - some of my friends are DGI, some are GI. Some, if they are GI, also didn't do much to help the community which was somewhat of a shock. So I have a lot of knew GI friends which is a wonderful blessing - in fact a bunch of them are coming over for a potluck in 2 hours and I shouldn't be sitting here!

Yes, I do go to England (and Scotland and Ireland) a lot - I lead tours there to Ancient/Sacred/Earth Mysteries Sites. I have a lot of friends there too and had to do a lot of talking to them. Not sure if they followed through after I left - they did seem to get it, but who knows for sure. I'll call them all once more this week. So I know what you mean about very few people in England to talk to about this! Glad this list was of help to you! It is to me, although a latecomer to the list, as I was traveling most of spring, summer & fall and busy working in the community all last fall and winter and early spring. Its been quite the year.

But I have learned tons and been rewarded unlimitedly (is that a word?). I guess Hawk is right - we can only allow ourselves to be hurt. One of my challenges in life. Now to focus on all the blessings and wonderful beings I have met and continue to get to know. Stay in touch!

-- Sheri (wncy2k@nccn.net), December 26, 1999.

Boy, Am I glad that Tom has calmed down! The Jews and Moslems on my road are heaving a collective sigh of relief.

Nonsensical, narrow minded rantings.

-- gary elliott (gelliott@real.on.ca), December 26, 1999.

Back to that original question about what hurt the most: The fact that my words carried no weight with the people who I have known most of my life. I am forty six years old and married for 21 years with three children. Have never done one crazy or wildly impractical thing as an adult. Have served the Lord since 23, built a successful business, a home. We are who EVERYONE comes to for help. We have been there for our church,community and family. It has been very humbling to accept that my life of living conservatively and always walking before we run with every project, - did not give me the credibility to cause ANYONE to EVEN READ up on y2k. I can name at least 30 people who I would have thought, would have said - if it came from me, it could be taken to the bank as reliable information. Didn't happen, and it makes me wonder.

-- homestead2 (homestead@monroecty.net), December 26, 1999.

Sheri, Ever climbed Glastonbury Tor ??Its quite near us.With all the rain & floods this past two weeks,the mysterious Levels & Altheney are all under water. Whenever we see StoneHenge I think how lucky I was to be able to wander round & touch the Stones.But then it hadn't been cordoned off in those days.Have you ever been over at Midsummer & watched the Druids in action?

-- Chris(Tina) (griffen@globalnet.co.uk), December 26, 1999.

Sheri, the worst has been a family member, whom I tried to warn in September, 1998, screaming at me, "You stupid Christians are always so negative. I'm sick of it! You said the stock market was going to go down and it's still up! A stopped clock is right twice a day, so someday maybe you'llbe right about something!!!" This family member lives in an apartment building complex of about 125 people, in a city of approximately 850,000 people, 2 miles from Bronx (NYC) border, 1 mile from site of major race riots in 1960's, in an apartment not big enough to store water in. Eventhough the person has over a million dollars in the stock market, and is self-employed, they went BESERK because I made the suggestion that they might consider renting/buying a tiny house in a remote county of a southern state ($75,000 at most) and going there for the rollover on a "vacation". Anyway, my main concern is that this person will freeze to death if the power goes off and the pipes burst.

-- rr (rr@sover.net), December 26, 1999.

It will soon be time for *moi* to be rude, judgemental and cruel.

If I can take it, I get to dish it out. For the sake of the people I warned that just blew me off---I hope they don't come groveling and whining about how they are soooooo sorry they didn't listen. I would find that very hard to respect.

There is no excuse for submitting to these delusions of invincibility.

Not Christian? Well, even Noah shut the doors......

-- JIT (justintime@rightnow.net), December 26, 1999.

Sheri,

Homestead2 hit the nail on the head for me. This situation has been a real eye opener. Very humbling. Preparing for y2k has been a gift of life to our families, as was Jesus Christ for all of us. Some choose to GI and appreciate it, other make fun or patronize us for our gift. We can choose to be hurt, angry or resentful or we can chose to to offer our gift as He does. The lessons I've learned were painful and yet gave me just a little insight into how God must feel when He offers a precious gift out of love (HIS Son's Life) and only few accept and appreciate it. I've been angry, hurt, furious and truly humiliated. Now, I am passed all of those emotions. I am "greatful" for the blessing of learning what is truely needed in our lives. To know the difference between "wants and needs" and how to appreciate the needs being met.

Thank you to all my friends here on the forum. Thank you to my church family the are GI's and are proving it with prepping. (Even when the whole town has made fun of us.) May God continue to Bless Each Of You.

-- Tess (preparingfortheworst@prayingforthebest.com), December 26, 1999.

Any hurt I've felt has just been growing pains, so it's all been good! My truth is that working with the mentally ill for 10 years has made me accustomed to people saying I'm right, then doing the opposite; this is old pain, not new to y2k. I suppose the hard part has been accepting the dysfunctional reactions in my family to a potential threat. So people in my family react to y2k the same way they do to every other stressor or threat; that can't surprise me, but it certainly leads me to mournfulness given potential consequences.

I do know that folks I've spoken with are more prepared than they would have been otherwise, just not as prepared as they could have been. I'm always walking that tight rope, trying to maximize their responsiveness. But the poles of my tightrope are professional skills at manipulative behavioral changes, verses moral imperative to throw caution to the wind and ring the bell of warning.

I think my ability to perceive where folks in my life are at, and how amenable they are to considering info at any point in time, has guarded me from the brunt of negative reactions some folks here have endurred. Because of this, I continue to lay some pretty heavy "seeds" and am effecting changes even today in some persons, without having alienated a soul. I just keep chipping away... give the rest to God.

But then I am left with the doubt of not knowing if alternatives would have produced more change. I guess that doubt will be the hardest thing for me in the short term. I have the logic of my professional knowledge to assure me that I've maximized results, but heck, it ain't like I'll be judged in the end by Freud, Jung, Skinner, et al. I know who I'll answer to in the end, and so because I consider my behavior on the y2k issue to be a question of my personal salvation, and I don't know the mind of God, I continue to maximize opportunities for heavenly consultation.

-- Hokie (nn@va.com), December 26, 1999.

welcome to the real world, sheri. if you think it is human nature is to be nice, play fairly, and love one another--you will always be disappointed. people will always let us down in one way or another. we are NOT evolving. just look at the horrendous atrocities being committed today??!! we will NEVER evolve--it is human nature. plus when society "lowers the bar" on standards of human behavior (which it has done more and more) people then have permission to act even more outrageously because society's mores don't hold them back as much.

y2k has been an excellent lesson in human behavior. have you been trying to convince others of believing about y2k? you care passionately about the issue because you have seen something they haven't seen? plus you are concerned for them too? yet, they get mean, rude, won't listen, think you have an agenda, think you are nuts. right?

well, maybe now you understand what it is like for those distateful christians who likewise have seen something you may not have seen and care about you enough to risk sharing with you, risk your rejection of them. i think there are many similarities.

we can try to persuade others of our beliefs but it is ultimately their choice. and when people make their choices, they will have to live with the consequences, won't they?

also sheri, you mention that you have "high expectations" of yourself and others.........who said you are correct in your expectations? who said anyone has to live up to your standards? did you ever wonder if your need to have everyone live up to your "high expectations" might be a form of codependency or perfectionism that you might want to deal with? then people can be free of your expectations and you can be free of your disappointment in people.

-- tt (cuddluppy@nowhere.com), December 26, 1999.

HOMESTEAD2:

For all your travails, do NOT consider them to be in vain.

Take comfort in these words which certainly seem to apply to yourself: 2Timothy:I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

Now you know where the well-known first part of the phrase comes from!

-- profit of doom (doom@helltopay.ca), December 26, 1999.

hey homestead2, i know what you mean about people not believing your message? or not even wanting to check it out further.

i have had a lot of converts to GIs but many who chose to think i was crazy. it doesn't bother me that they think i am crazy--not really-- i have been a fool for christ for long enough i guess i understand perceived "craziness".

what i have begun to believe is that their non-belief or lack of willingness to even look seriously at the issue of Y2K REALLY SAYS MORE ABOUT THEM THAN IT DOES ABOUT ME. often i think it means, they really just don't want to deal with such a potentially frightening issue, they are closed-minded about most topics of a "deeper" or "less tangible nature", or maybe they have been "blinded" for whatever reason to the truth?

i keep feeling like NOAH -- crazy and wondering why am I doing all this when most of those around me AREN'T????!!!!

-- tt (cuddluppy@nowhere.com), December 26, 1999.

It is hard to broach a topic that engenders as much ridicule (most of the time) but it has been necessary. Once discussed, many of my friends simply dismiss the issue.

The hard thing to handle has been the refusal of many (any) to look into the matter and make a decision on their own. I would not mind if they disagreed with me after analyzing the issue but apparently that's not in the cards any more.

-- Mike Lang (webflier@erols.com), December 26, 1999.

Hokie, I've been feeling those growing pains too, like I've done more than twelve months of growing this year. In some ways it's been exhilerating, as I've learned a lot about some skills I wasn't aware I was so good at. I feel very focused, and have a real sense of accomplishment in an area where we were often amateurs having to reinvent the wheel with our community organizing.

The downside has been the feeling that whenever I brought up Y2k I was the Bad Fairy bringing gloom and doom to people's happy little fantasy worlds. Like some crazed religious wacko of the First Church of Y2k, grabbing people by the lapels and screaming at them that they were going to die. Even though I found that Y2k discussions worked best when I could use gentle humor, there was still that awful purposively tactical nature to some of the discourse, as I tried to see what memes could be planted most stealthily. I just wasn't getting enough of my daily requirement of playful conversations. I was having to give up some research on more esoteric subjects that I was passionately pursuing. And of course there was that pervasive sense that if I had more hours in a day I could have done way more. It's been hard learning to let go of the outcomes, remembering that people will have to make their own solutions.

Ah, Chris(Tina) and Sheri, I've missed Glastonbury talk. Your mentions of it are like a refreshing spring rain in this den of verbal assaults. I've slept on the top of the Tor on a summer solstice, met my husband through a domebuilding group that was there in the mid-seventies. First thing my daughters had that wasn't mother's milk was Chalice Well water.

The verbal assaults are not just something we can blame on the impersonal nature of the Internet, for I hope you've had the gratification that we can meet others online too with whom our hearts and minds can speak fully. Part of it is the nature of a largely unmoderated forum, where the culture seems to allow this behavior. I'd certainly prefer to be in my usual haunts talking about things that engage me more, but my colleagues there didn't give a rat's patootie about Y2k. So here I am, and glad for many of the things many of you have shared. May it go well for you.

-- Firemouse (firemouse@fcmail.com), December 26, 1999.

Tess: Do you like to mudwrestle?

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), December 26, 1999.

Sheri,

Indeed we are evolving. Stagnation is the formula for extinction. Nothing stays the same. Move forward in knowledge, ability and understanding, or become extinct. It's that simple.

I have learned to evaluate people. This is different from judging people. I learn about individuals (and groups) by what they say and do. From this, I am able to somewhat understand them which gives me insight on how to react towards them for my benefit, which I consider to be beneficial for the human species as well.

In other words, a good defense is the best offense. To be successful, you have to develop an ability to look further out, and be ready to proactively respond (an oxymoron?) to their (mostly) predictable actions. Your proactive response must be structured so that it does no physical harm to them yet prevents them from doing physical harm to you while at the same time, enlightens them in a positive way, to your way of thinking and living.

As for their mental anguish, they won't like being rebuked or denied. My personal experience with this reaction is, once they realize they can't infect/harm you, they "tune you out" or ignore you. This is good, from your perspective. Not as good as having enlightened them whereby they realize their error and become more like you, but it's better than having them emotionally explode upon you or others like you.

On first verbal contact, you must have a thick skin. LOL, an understatement indeed! Your goal is to "figure them out", learn what makes them tick, as quickly as possible. Those with huge egos are easy, and the one's you must identify quickly as they have the potential to do the most harm in the least amount of time. The "shoot first and ask questions later" crowd.

I could go on, but you appear to be intelligent enough to figure it out from here.

8-)

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), December 26, 1999.

I'm probably responding too late in the thread for anyone to see this post, but hurt... interesting word, Sheri. I remember when I first got it, I worked as lead programmer for a mortgage company in the southeast. I tried to alert the management there - to no avail. I was lampooned. But I determined that the best thing was to move to the country, so we did - up north, to rural farmland.

I moved here and became the Y2K director for a manufacturing company. I figured out their vulnerability with suppliers, read all of the statements from vendor and customer alike. I gave my two cents to the company's board - and was dismissed easily as being "out there." Although the company's purchaser quickly became a GI when noticing that all of the steel in the product was reliant on international steel, specifically Russian.

I organized a Y2K discussion for my local community through the school system and twelve people showed up.

I spoke to my pastor and he smiled and said that he doesn't speak on topical issues. Later, I find out (from someone else) that he thinks Y2K is a hoax designed by the devil to scare us Christians away from God. And yes, he recently spoke out against preparations and "hoarding," as he called it.

I went to work for the state government as a consultant. While they appear mostly ready, some things still need conversion - they're just not mission-critical. And I'm currently working on a program that needs to operate with data from the feds and watching how that communication channel works (and the lack of speed in it) has me wondering just how any coordination with glitches will be handled between the two entities.

I spoke with my family. My mom is too busy on eBay to notice much of anything else.

And you know, the funny thing is that I'm not so much hurt, although it would have been nice to have had them respect me a bit more.

I remember when I got it and my wife and children got it and the emotions we went through. We did all of our heart-rending in six months as we prepared to say goodbye to conveniences and comforts. Emotionally, we're pretty ready now. But I can't imagine a world of people who have the rug yanked from under them in a few weeks and the resulting turmoil that comes with it.

Any hurt that I have comes from not being able to reach them and knowing that those emotions will be all the more raw from the immediacy of their situation.

I've learned that whether it's my church or companies for whom I've worked, the prosperity of our times are a hard thing to leave behind for people.

I read this today in Jeremiah:

For from the least of them even to the greatest of them, everyone is greedy for gain, and from the prophet even to the priest, everyone deals falsely. They have healed the brokenness of My people superficially, saying, "Peace, peace," but there is no peace. - Jeremiah 6:13, 14

I think the greatest characteristic we can have right now is forgiveness. That and thankfulness, because for some reason we "got it" and I think a lot of us were able to correct things in our lives that needed correction once we studied how arrogantly we accepted the conveniences and comforts.

-- Brett (savvydad@netins.net), December 26, 1999.

I can sure relate to what you are saying, Homestead2. All my life I have been the responsible one, setting the good example. Back in the 60's, I remember thinking to myself that in 20-30 years our country would be a moral cesspool based on what was going on then. It turned out to be true.

About four years ago, I remember getting a personal homepage set up on the web prior to the general public's awareness of the commercial benefits, and thinking to myself that as soon as a few people catch on to the commercial benefits of the web, it will be mind boggling -- and that has happened.

I've been involved in alternative medicine for over 20 years, way before most people knew of the benefits of vitamin C, herbs, etc. and would try to let people know about it. I am 54, and most people guess me around 34-35 because my face is unlined, I have no grey, and I've always been very healthy. Even when you are living proof of something, people still won't listen to you. They moan about their health problems, but when you give them the natural answer, they don't want to hear it. I also could see the day when the mainstream and doctors would finally see that the body could heal itself if the immune system was supported with the proper nutrients. I remember telling various people the natural answers for things like arthritis, cholesterol, etc. several years ago, and they would not listen until recently when their doctors told them to take the same nutrient products to help their worsened arthritis and cholesterol problem after having a heart scare. And I knew that there would be an incredible billion dollar industry for nutritional products, and there certainly is today.

I don't understand it, but I feel like I have always been able to see ahead on many important issues, and even though those around me have seen things come to pass time and time again that I have told them about, when I have talked about Y2K, other than a few individuals, most who know me still don't want to consider the ramifications of Y2K and think I've gone off the deep end -- even with my track record on most issues of real importance. I guess if people like Jim Lord, Paula Gordon, Ed Yourdon, and others with extensive credentials are not listened to, then I guess I can understand when people don't listen to me. That has been the most frustrating part of it. Even though many problems may not show up right away and will build as time goes on, I hope we are able to get a real good feel this week for what is going to happen. I have been following Y2K for two years now, and enough is enough. I am plum burned out with it all.

I stopped talking to people about Y2K almost a year ago. If I had kept on trying to convince people, I would have burned out sooner. In the early days, there was no talk of Y2K in the media, so people didn't believe then. Then when the media finally did get hold of it, it was no big deal, so of course people didn't believe it. If it isn't on the news, then of course it can't be true. Maybe because I've never been a conformist is why I'm not a sheeple. But I've kept on plugging along, many times not knowing whether I am right or wrong, but feeling that I must.

Actually, I have sometimes compared myself to the character that Richard Dreyfuss played in "Close Encounters of the Third Kind". Especially the part where he is sitting at the kitchen table with his wife. He keeps putting more and more mashed potatoes onto his plate, forming them into some kind of structure. He has no clue what he's doing, he's just being led to do it -- and his wife thinks he's really lost it. As the movie goes along, we find out later that he was creating the form of the mountain where the space ship was going to land. Well, I feel like I've been Richard Dreyfuss' character for the last couple years. Compelled to keep preparing. Anyone else relate to that scene?

-- Dee (healthy53@hotmail.com), December 26, 1999.

King of Spain,

I can now say my century has been made. You FINALLY asked me if I mud wrestle. Whew. No I don't but here's a {{{{hug}}}} for you :)

Dee,

Yes, the feelings of being "led" are there... by the Holy Spirit...just could not get "prepping for y2k" out of my head.

Thank you Lord. May not be for y2k, but God made sure we were prepared for problems. I'm like you, I am tired of y2k. I do believe that the lessons I have learned, either because of or in spite of y2k have been EXTREMELY valuable. I would not change any of it.

-- Tess (preparingfortheworst@prayingforthebest.com), December 27, 1999.

Wow - thank you all for such inspirational and heartfelt words! It has been challenging. Yes, I know my expectations of myself and especially others have to change. I've been working with that for quite some time and especially the last week - really looking at it. And tt, I NEVER have tried to force Y2K down anyone's throat - I've mentioned it and if I see the eyes glaze over or anger, I don't go there again. But I am very visible in my community and county and share the information and still people act as if I'm shoving it down their throats or pushing it like salvation. It hasn't been that way at all but that is their reaction.

Yes, I relate to the whole thing of usually being the leader and being respected for foresight, etc and now this and having others react totally different. It is a new experience for me, but also have been there before too - I'm now remembering in the 70's when I became vegetarian and started studying complementary healing therapies. Actually this has happened before - just in another form.

Yes Chris (Tina) and Firemouse - love the Tor and Glastonbury and Chalice Well and the Abbey grounds. Just hope I'll be able to come back. Chris (Tina) - what town do you live in? Spend a lot of time there every year since 1991. And Dee - yes can really relate to being totally ahead of my time with complementary healing therapies and metaphysical/spiritual thought and practices. And your comparing this to Close Encounters - I've said that MANY time - felt just like Richard Dreyfus' character must have felt. We don't know why we get it and are motivated to do this. It may be for some reason that we don't even know yet - maybe Y2K will be something and maybe not, but maybe there will be something else that this will really help prepare us for.

Anyway, thanks so much for sharing.

-- Sheri (wncy2k@nccn.net), December 27, 1999.