Have finished all other preps...prepared for a 6-8. The only thing that I had not purchased until today was any type weapon in the event that things get really out of control.

I bought a Remington Model 870 12-gauge shotgun. Will this do? I was really surprised at how easy it was to buy. I thought that it would take several days and was afraid that I had waited too long - I have struggled with this for months. But the purchase was approved in less than 10 minutes.

oh, another thing. I don't know what kind of ammo to buy in quantity. I bought several rounds of "practice" shells, (he said it wouldn't scrape paint off of a tin can) and then something that he called "double-aught" shells that could kill a deer or whatever. As you can tell, I am way out of my league here.

Please advise me on what I should ammo I should buy.

The store also had a sign up that said "All firearm and ammo sales are final. No Returns or refunds." Is this normal?

-- feeling guilty (scared@of guns.period), December 24, 1999

Answers

First off, sack up and quit sounding like such a pussy. You have every right to provide for you and your family's defense.

Second, find someone who can give you some training with the thing, sounds like you need it.

Third, double ought buckshot (00) will do very nicely for killing deer or just about anything else besides African elephant or Cape Buffalo. The gunshop owner will fix you up.

Get moving, you've only got a week man!

-- (cavscout@fix.net), December 24, 1999.

Hayley, It is not so obvioius to me. Lighten up.

feeling guilty: double aught tactical shells should be fine. Find a place to go practice loading, unloading and shooting. Get over your fear and get comfortable with it.

-- JoseMiami (caris@prodigy.net), December 24, 1999.

I don't think it's a troll. Sounds typical of someone who just bought his first shotgun after being scared of guns.

With that in mind, yes, you bought a nice shotgun, but as someone else pointed out, you *desperately* need to find someone *qualified* to teach you FIRST basic safety stuff, *then* how to use it.

As to "practice" loads, I suspect the box probably says something like "skeet" or "quail". They will take far more than the paint off a can. At close range (the range you'd experience inside your home, for instance), they'll be very deadly against human-sized targets.

The 00 buck loads are deadly at much greater range, and *too* deadly for use inside a dwelling, as they'll cut through several layers of drywall as if it were damp tissue paper.

Again: find *qualified* training, FIRST in safety, *then* in usage.

If you don't know where to look, call your local police or sheriff's department and ask them who they recommend.

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), December 24, 1999.

Good gun, good start. Double ought (00) and #4 shot shells are good. make sure they are the right length for your gun. 2 3/4 in., 3 in, etc. If in doubt about which to use, its printed on your barrel.

Next, familiarity breeds contempt, practice makes perfect.

Before the end of the year, find a gun range and go shooting there. Know and practice gun safety!!! Use up at least 3 or 4 boxes at targets, varying ranges. 10 ft., 20 ft. 50 ft. try a few shots at 100 ft. Note the differences in shot patterns. Shoot till you are comfortable with the recoil and noise, till it is almost routine. Repeat with another box of shells a week later so it all gets imprinted in your head and hands. This will make you reasonably physcally competent with the weapon, loading, noise, smell, and cleaning. Remember it would be MUCH louder indoors! Have any one else that may use it with you and let them fire a box or so.

Next, practice mentally your possible use of this gun. Where will you keep it? where is the ammo? Is it locked? how long will it take to get it and load it? Who will have access to it? Who wil you tell about it? When will you get it out? Load it? Use it? Will you shoot someone in your yard? In your house? WHY? What are the legalities? When is its deadly use justified by law? by moral code? Can you kill someone? That is the worst/best end use of this tool. Get your head right on these questions or you could be unhappy with the end results. Like GI Joe sez: Knowing is half the battle.

Keep the gun, make it an heirloom. It will not lose much value over the next 30 years. Clean it once a year, twice in humid areas. Refresh your ammo every 10 years. Having this weapon and knowing how to use it will be very comforting in stressful times.

Any other questions?

-- RidgeRunner (beenshootin@stuff40years.com), December 24, 1999.

good gun good advice if you have kids keep it where you alone can access it, I have owned guns all my life and have never had one loaded in the house. I usually keep the ammo seperate from the guns however during jan. I will be "locked and loaded" good luck to all

-- paul (epauladams@pldi.net), December 24, 1999.

Three types of shells, about 200 of each...

00 "buck", #4 "buck", and #4 ("regular") (all in 2 3/4" size)

The two "buck" loads are for defense and/or large game, and the #4 regulars are for small game. Have a bunch of all three.

And quit freakin' out! Do you panic every time you get in a car? If not, why not? Cars kill and maim MANY more people than guns.

A gun is just a TOOL. It's the INTENT of the owner that makes it "good" or "bad". Now, grow up, and go buy some shells.

-- Dennis (djolson@pressenter.com), December 24, 1999.

many thanks to all.

I guess the reason that I sound like a pussy is because I am a female, mother of two. Was around guns when I was little - Dad and brother hunting and the like - but swore I would never have one in my house while my children are young. (both under 9)

I bought a trigger lock for it and mounted a rack above the double door in my closet. You have to stand in the closet and turn around and look up to see it. What ammo I have is locked in the safe, and I have not assembled the shotgun. No one kmows that I have it.

I appreciate the tips and info on shells. Looks like I bought the small stuff for the quail, and a box of "00" buck shot.

I am only 5"2, 128 pounds. If I shoot this thing, is it going to knock me down?

-- feeling guilty (scared@of guns.period), December 24, 1999.

Congratulations on your purchase. I've used Rem 870's for over 25 years in military service and for hunting. Two things to remember are "Practice, practice, practice" and "You can never have too much ammunition".

If you have never had any firearms experience, say military duty or even target shooting at Boy Scout camp, you really need to get together with an experienced gunowner to get some pointers. Check you local phone book for gun or hunting clubs. They may have someone who can help you with basic how-to questions and probably even have a range you can do some practice on.

If you can't find one, try checking the websites for Gun Owners of America or the National Rifle Association. They may have information or links for the new gun owner.

As far as ammunition, I'll recommend using #4 shot loads as an all- around ammo for home defense and medium game hunting (turkeys, geese, ducks). Get at least one hundred or so rounds to insure you have enough for an extended period. For the majority of your practice shooting lighter loads like #6 or #7 can be used and they can also be used for small game hunting (rabbits, quail).

Save your double-ought (00) buckshot for large game hunting (if it's legal where you live) or for special purposes, like blowing doors off their hinges. I've found that most states actually mandate the use of slugs for hunting and prohibit 00-buckshot. Slugs are relaively cheap and at least a few dozen would be good to have on hand.

As far as the "All sales final" sign, yes that is normal for most firearms dealers. You can sell the gun back (at a loss of course) or maybe exchange it in case of a defect (it might have to go straight back to the maker) but most gun dealers don't do cash-back refunds.

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), December 24, 1999.

12 gauge is a big gun for 128 lbs, shoot it a bit to get used to it. First time my wife shot our 870, she spun clean around about one and a half times, with all of us hitting the dirt. Get some practice.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), December 24, 1999.

'course, just the SOUND of chambering a round is gonna get the complete attention of even the stupidest burglar ...

-- bw (home@puget.sound), December 24, 1999.

bw,

LOL! that's what I am afraid of. being knocked on my can and gotten the best of while I am down. The sound IS intimidating and I hope to use that to its full advantage (if i have to use it at all!)

No plans of deer hunting here, just protecting my little ones and my Y2K preps.

Do I need to license or register this with the local police?

-- feeling guilty (scared@of guns.period), December 24, 1999.

The chambering sound is the most distinctive noise I can imagine. Nothing else is even close. But you really do need to be familiar with the recoil. The worst of all possible situations is to be stunned and knocked off balance by an unfamiliar weapon. You need to find a place to shoot off AT LEAST 100 rounds. On local laws, I didn't catch your location (and I'm not asking). Talk to your cops, if you feel ok doing that, or (to stay stealthy) look up local indoor ranges, go there and strike up conversation with the sales folks and customers.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), December 24, 1999.

Go to www.nra.org and you will find access to all sorts of information. You can even check what the local laws are about gun ownership and use. Since you were cleared in 10 mins., that means you obviously may own it.

The NRA main HQ is near me, and they are a great group of instructors, and willing to help with all sorts of questions for those new to guns. There are names all around the country of NRA- licensed instructors of this calibre. (No pun intended!)

I thought I couldn't do it. You will be fine once you have professional guidance...but you must now act quickly. God bless you and your two little ones in the uncertain times ahead!

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), December 24, 1999.

Feeling Guilty, You should feel smart, not guilty, for taking a step towards protecting your family -- BUIT -- you have only taken a step. Your next step needs to be securing competent instruction for your firearm and then practice. My wife is about your size and she can handle a 12 gauge. It will knock you around a bit, but it is not impossible for a smallish woman to handle (as an aside, I recently trained a frail 70 year-old widow to use here deceased husband's 12 gauge. She didn't like the recoil at all, but did manage). Shotguns, more than just about any other firearm, can take an amazingly wide variety of ammunition. You can find some very light loads to start off with. Be advised that the difference in felt recoil between a light 2.75" dove load and a 3" magnum buckshot load is significant. You should go to a real gun shop (not a department store) and explain what you are trying to do. Gun shop folks tend to be very friendly and they will sell you the correct ammo as well as be able to suggest local places to find training and a place to shoot. Good luck to you.

Best regards

Doc

-- T.H. "Doc" Toups (ttoups@aol.com), December 24, 1999.

Lean INTO the gun. Place the butt FIRMLY against your shoulder. Fire away. After the initial surprise of the first few shots, you'll be fine... Honest.

And don't forget ear plugs. If you end up actually USING the weapon in your home, you'll be COMPLETELY deaf for a short period, unless you wear the plugs/muffs.

Practice. I KNOW there's really not enough time left, but take ONE BOX of shells to the range or woods, and shoot it up. Your LIVES may depend on your ability. Wanna risk it?

One final note: The trigger lock is okay (in a home with small children), but KEEP YOUR WEAPON LOADED, and KEEP IT NEAR YOU AT ALL TIMES if you suspect some form of threat. Wear the key to the trigger lock on a piece of string around your neck that you can break with a single yank. Better yet, remove the lock when the gun is at your side.

An unloaded and/or locked and/or hidden gun is useless to you, and will just get you and your kids killed. Set aside your bigotry against guns (for that's what it is, really...) and LIVE.

My opinions only. Hope this helps.

-- Dennis (djolson@pressenter.com), December 24, 1999.

Feelin' Guilty:

My advice--stop reading right now and call a friend who knows about guns: ex military, cop, hunter. Ask him/her to take you to a shooting range NOW! You have to get comfortable with the gun--NOW! You only have a week to learn all you can about the weapon and to not be afraid of it. If you go shooting today, you may be able to get in another practice day before rollover. You will need two separate good practices before then at a minimum, and you will be sore after your first experience shooting a 12 gauge. I couldn't lift my right arm for a week after the first time I shot our 12 gauge, my shoulder was so sore. I also had a nice little bruise on my cheek from the kick of the stock--but lesson learned!! I still feel more comfortable with my .22 rifle, but I know that I can load, point, and shoot the 12 gauge. And that's the most important thing. I'm no longer afraid of it or of any of the other firearms in our house. Get out there, gal!

-- Cath (Fin@llyGI.now), December 24, 1999.

You're getting a lot of good advice here, read it.

Get a good trainer.

More ammo, lots of it.

Get some good basic hands-on training *very* soon. Don't be shy.

Get some hearing protection before your first practice and wear it during practice (prefer ear muff type, personal choice).

Remember: Good Gun Control Means Hitting What You Aim At !

-- snooze button (alarmclock_2000@yahoo.com), December 24, 1999.

feeling guilty,

First off don't feel guilty about your purchase. There is absolutely nothing wrong with owning such a weapon. Congratulations on your purchase!

As bw said, a 12 ga. is a lot of gun for a 128 pounder but you'll do just fine. It makes a lot of noise and depending on the ammo, it has a pretty good kick to it. Don't let it intimidate you. My oldest son has been shooting one since 10 years of age (about 75 lbs). My youngest shot one at about 7 years of age (with a little help from me). It is very important to get someone to show you the proper stance and how to shoulder the weapon properly. Failure to do so can result in a very unpleasant experience. As someone mentioned already, practice this as much as possible. First timers have a tendency to do both of these wrong. It will take a little work to make it instinctive.

As far as ammo goes, Walmart sells what is called a "high brass" (a heavier load in which the brass at the bottom of the shell extends a little higher than most bird shot (as in "quail shot")). in a #6 load, which is good for ducks, squirrel, etc., for $4.18. It is in a white box and is made by Winchester. On the front of the box it will say "Upland Shotshell" and on top of the box it says "Upland Heavy Game Loads". Don't confuse them with another box that looks almost identical (which I did) except on the top it says "Upland Heavy FIELD Loads". The latter costs about $2.50 more because it's a bit more powerful (which you're probably trying to avoid anyhow). These will be good for hunting small game and self defense(within a limited distance). Also, www.sportsmansguide.com sells what they call a tactical load in a #4 buckshot. They are primarily for practicing tactical shooting and have a light load of gunpowder in them for a reduced kick. Might be ideal in your situation. 100 rounds for $29.95. I know it's a little late but they have 2 day shipping. You should still be able to get them in time if you'd like.

Good luck & enjoy the experience. :)

-- NokternL (nokternl@anywhereusa.com), December 24, 1999.

Good choice of weapon. Definitely learn to use it, you can do it. Try lifting some weights to build arm strength (yeah, in your spare time). You might want to talk to the gun store about Sabot slugs for the shotgun. They are made specifically for home defense. I might alternate them in the tube 1 Sabot, 1 00 buck etc. etc.

Good luck, and don't ever let anyone try to make you feel guilty for wanting to protect your peeps. Merry Christmas to you and yours.

REMINGTON M870 Introduced in 1950, Remingon's reasonably priced Model 870 slide- action repeater quickly became America's darling, supplanting the popular but increasingly expensive Model 12. Almost as fast, the Remington also became the favorite of American law enforcement and military, being the shotgun of choice for the armed professional. For decades now, the Model 870 has been the combat shotgun against which all others are judged. The basic 970 or 870P is a true-to-form riot or combat gun, available in a number of barrel lengths from 14 to 20 inches, with three to seven- round magazines. A bottom-feeding, side-ejecting design, the Model 870 also features a choice of fixed hardwood or synthetic stocks and, until recently, a folding steel buttstock was available to civilians as well. A choice of sights is also available for this pump gun, these being a simple brass bead or rifle sights for the slug shooter. Aftermarket "ghost ring" sights can be found from a number of suppliers. The Remington Model 870 has acquired a very well-deserved reputation for rugged durability and considerable dependability. Also, the guns have been taken to an even higher form by Scattergun Technologies, which transforms a basic 870 barreled action into the ne-plus-ultra of slide action combat shotguns. Scattergun Technologies' Model 870s can be fitted with a host of practical, tactical accessories, to include Parkerized metal finish, adjustable ghost-ring rear sight teamed to a highly visible ramp front sight with luminous insert, an extended magazine tube holding seven rounds, a Sidesaddle shell holder mounted to the left side of the receiver that holds six extra shells, a synthetic buttstock and fore-end, a high- visibility non-binding magazine follower, a jumbo-head safety button, a three-way adjustable sling and swivels and various flashlight and laser sight options. In total, Scattergun Tech offers 10 variants of the Model 870, many of which are sold to U.S. law enforcement, including the Border Patrol.

-- Gordon (g_gecko_69@hotmail.com), December 24, 1999.

Feeling guilty-

My sincerest apologies. See what happens when we (I) assume? Kudos to you for taking the responsibilty for your own defense.

-- (cavscout@fix.net), December 24, 1999.

http://www.plusp.com/

The above site is very frank about lethal force. You have every right to defend yourself and your family.

I was 120 lbs the first time I fired a 12 gauge. It did not knock me down, or spin me around. I fired a magnum #4 at a duck. Had him for dinner the next night. (I was accostomed to firearms, just not the 12 gauge).

Understand, if you pull the gun out, you have to be ready to pull the trigger. Don't expect the "sound" or "sight" of the gun to make a potential felon turn and run. If you have your gun taken from you (by the bad guy) because you were unwilling to shoot, you will be in worse shape than when you started.

I have observed in many species, the female of the species is a force to recon with when she is defending her own. Humans are no different.

You can do it, it is not too late. Deer season is still open, so hunters should be easy to find.

BTW nice gun.

Good luck.

-- tryntohelp (beenther@donethat.com), December 24, 1999.

Feeling guilty, I know how you feel. I finally bought my shot gun on Dec 9. I had almost everything else done and had put this off for months. I purchased a Remington 870 20 gauge youth model. I'm a woman, 5'5" and well over 128lbs. I had shot guns as a youth but not in 30 years. I have two children under 11. I shot 20 shots from this gun after I bought it. The kick was pretty hard and it's a 20 gauge. Two days later my shoulder was black and blue. Also keep your teeth closed when you pull the trigger. It seemed like I almost chipped a tooth when I shot the gun. But to my surprise I hit the target and killed a few clay pigeons! Good luck to you - I know how hard it was for you to go through with it. If I didn't think all this could go bad fast, I wouldn't have bothered with a gun. I'm very glad I have it. My husband was not too keen on it. He jokes that if someone scary comes to the door after the first of the year he'll just say, "Just a minute while I get my wife" LOL. God bless us all.

-- Not this time (bang@didit.com), December 24, 1999.

Safety tips from my dad and brother about target practice:

1. Never shoot across the road. (You never know when a car may cross your line of fire.)

2. When shooting, make sure you have hard cover BEHIND the target. Bullets travel much farther than you'd realize, and you certainly don't want to accidentally fire into a residential area.

3. Never carry a loaded gun.

4. Always carry your shotgun with the barrel pointed down and safety down.

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), December 24, 1999.

I don't care what anybody says...you guys are great!

I've done three things since I posted my last response on this thread.

1) Called the local police station (I am in NE Texas by the way) and registered my 9-year old son and I to attend a gun safety and basic training seminar starting on Monday.

2) Reserved training time at a local firing range for 3 days next week.

3) Called a friend of mine this afternoon and asked him to take me to practice shooting and show me how to put the silly thing together. We went out to a "deer lease" or somewhere - far far away from civilization. He said that he was protecting the public!

Well, it was a barrel of laughs...for him anyway. I DID hit the target, just not the one I was aiming at. It was 20 yards to my left. Knocked me on my butt and scared the hell out of me. And that was with the "baby ammo"!!!!

I feel much better having gotten the initial shock overwith and you all have been so very supportive. If it wasn't for all of the great advice, I probably would still have it in the box in the closet.

One more GI that can "load and lock" or "lock and load", whichever it is. I heard the collective groans!

Thanks a Million and Merry Christmas to you all!!!

-- feeling guilty (scared@of guns.period), December 24, 1999.

Dear Scared,

I fired our 870 for the first time recently, too. It's got a helluva kick to it. I'm 5'9", female, and weigh more than you, and I've had some hand gun instruction. One thing I noticed is that it really hurts the "notch" in your shoulder where you place it. Of course, it doesn't hurt as much as being killed by an intruder, so I'll persevere.

Keep at it. Some of the other rules of the road taught to me: 1. Always assume the gun is loaded. 2. Don't point the muzzle at anything you don't want to destroy. 3. Be sure of your target (and the area behind your target, that is, other people in the next room, neighbors next door, people downstairs or upstairs or out on the porch, etc. Ammo goes a long way.

Remember to always keep that little safety button on (pushed to the right) whenever you are loading and unloading. Take that safety class and practice a lot. The instructor we worked with suggested getting "dummy loads" for practicing loading and unloading. I guess they have shot in them but no powder and primer, so they don't fire and they can't go anywhere. But they have the same weight and feel as real ammo. (I don't know where to get them, wish I did.)

-- (learning@stepatatime.com), December 24, 1999.

Glad you got out shooting, I'm sure you and your son will enjoy it. As to the recoil, my daughter was not much older than your son when I taught her to shoot a 12 ga. pump, and she loved it. The trick is to use light loads, and hold the stock *firmly* against your shoulder. If you leave *any* slack, it'll travel back and wallop you.

As to the heavier loads, wear a good padded jacket or vest, hold it firmly, and try *not* to think about it when squeezing the trigger. The *biggest* reason people miss the target is because they flinch in anticipation of the recoil. By sticking with light loads until you're completely comfortable with the shotgun, you'll be able to minimize it. If you start out with a heavy duty load, you'll find that it's *hard* to "unlearn" a flinch, as it's reflexive rather than conscious.

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), December 24, 1999.

dear Scared, my complimenats on an excellent shoice of weaponry. The first thing you want to do is make sure it is not loaded, then clean the cosmoline(grease) out of the barrel. Next lay the shotgun on the floor, kneel down and ask God that you never have to use it in anger. Then go to the gun store and get some #4 buckshot and some slugs. Go with 2 and 3 quaters loads, the gun will hold five of them and only four of the three inch. Power is roughly the same. Do NOT install an extended magazine, unless it is of high quality. A cheap Hi cap will leave you cycling a dry pump with tons of ammo left in the tube. If you have children in the house show them the gun, then tell them you will beat them to death if they touch it. Put it in a locked closet in your bedroom and keep the key with you at all times. If you have a child in his teens, you may want to take him shooting so that you have a backup gunner if all else fails and the family's lives are at stake. this country was built on powder smoke and blood, and that is all that stands between us and tyranny. I got my first gun at seven years old, and I aint killed anybody yet, even though I have met several that needed it.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), December 24, 1999.

"I bought a Remington Model 870 12-gauge shotgun. Will this do? I was really surprised at how easy it was to buy. I thought that it would take several days and was afraid that I had waited too long - I have struggled with this for months. But the purchase was approved in less than 10 minutes. "

Approved? Approved? This is what is so disturbing about your post. You think that you need some 'approval' in order to purchase a weapon. And that is exactly what our country has been turned into. A place where you need government approval to excercise your God-given rights.

The second amendment makes plain that you have the RIGHT to possess a firearm. The principal reason for the second amendment was to insure that citizens could maintain their arms. And they needed to maintain them BECAUSE of government. Arms in the hands of the citizenry is the ONLY protection that people have against government. It is the ONLY protection that the citizens have in the face of tyranny.

Try reading the Constitution sometime. you might learn a little of what this Republic was set up for and how it was SUPPOSED to function, not the way it is carried out by the present day criminals in the halls of power.

Paul Milne

Clinton: "I did not have sex with that woman, Miss Lewinsky"

bks: "It was not overt lying. It was overgeneralization for rhetorical purposes."

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), December 24, 1999.

Yeah, that Constitution is one heck of a read. Talks about weird stuff, like it being some kind of "right" to own firearms, and say what you want about anything without fear of retribution. Even gets very picky about what is supposed to be money, claiming that gold and silver are supposed to be used, not paper notes.

Really makes you wonder what it was intended to do....

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), December 24, 1999.

This is a great thread. It shows friendliness, helpfulness, a respect for law and order, good sense and very appropriate comments about Our Constitution, Rights and Responsibilities.

A round of applause for all...there is some hope for our republic.

-- snooze button (alarmclock_2000@yahoo.com), December 24, 1999.

snooze, you are absolutely right.

OK, one and all, now that I have some new found confidence about my purchase and have reconciled myself to being a new gun owner, I have had a minor setback.

Please provide me with some feedback.

I went back to the sporting goods store before they closed this afternoon to pick up the ammo that you all recommended. I was interrogated by a man (customer)wearing a forest ranger uniform about my intentions regarding the amount of ammo that I was purchasing. I followed the above advice to get about 200 rounds of each. Did I understand incorrectly? (By the way, I told him it was none of his business.) He slipped away without further ado only to return with a manager of the store. The manager remembered me from earlier today and asked why I had decided to buy such a large amount of buck shot. Angered by the inquistion, I asked him if there was some law against buying a weapon and ammo on the same day, or if there were restrictions on how much ammo one could purchase at any one time. I read the links mentioned above and do not recall finding anything on this.

With that I was told that purchases of any amount of ammo above 100 rounds is reported to local law enforcement and that I would have to sign for it. Folks, I have no problem with local police knowing that I have a shotgun, but this is ridiculous. I may be the newest gun owner in town, but I wasn't born yesterday.

The ranger guy also told me that my gun could be confiscated in times of civil unrest. IS THIS TRUE?

So, you guessed it. I bought the 100 rounds, refused to sign squat, and went on my merry way.

Is this a crock, or am I such a newbie that I failed to get all the facts before blowing into the gun store wanting to buy the motherload?

-- feeling guilty (scared@of guns.period), December 24, 1999.

Someone probably said it, but I just want to reiterate,..find yourself a pistol range somewhere and learn to load, unload, and SHOT the gun. Imperative to get used to the feel AND sound of the gun. They have instruction available. Helps tremendously. Also, cleaning the darn things is a bitch, but after firing it..a must. PS..at 5'2..I can barely reach far enough to pump the shot gun...I have to tilt it down in an uncomfortable way,..still have difficulty with it. On rollover...t'will be my Glock attached to my hip.

-- kritter (kritter@adelphia.net), December 24, 1999.

feeling G-

The only thing I would have done differently would have been to tell both of them to F*ck off, and take my business elsewhere.

Other than that, Great Job today!

-- (cavscout@fix.net), December 24, 1999.

Feeling G,

Welcome to the wonderful world of Gun Ownersip in America. You should know that most places that sell ammo have the phone number to their local BATF offices right next to the register. If someone comes in and acts 'suspicious' they take down any info they can (including the license plate if possible) and call it in. You can BET that given the current heighted awareness concerning terrorism someone called you in. I have mixed feelings about this practice. While I don't think large purchases per se should be reported I *do* want a store owner to call in if a customer starts talking about robbing a bank or doing some other heinous crime (and yes, many do). I think we would want ANY store owner or citizen to do that.

Next time, just go to different stores. Your not breaking any law by buying lots of ammo and your not breaking any laws by doing it at seperate stores. If you don't have evil intentions then you don't have anything to feel 'guilty' about.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), December 25, 1999.

FOR THE RECORD, according to the current Executive Orders signed by Klinto, ALL OF YOU PROPERTY including your HOME, CARS, FOOD, WATER, GUNS AND AMMO can be siezed by the Gubmint at ANY TIME.

And this is NO BULL.

-- Dennis (djolson@pressenter.com), December 25, 1999.

The first city police were prohibited from carrying guns. Bet most people don't know that. When they spotted a crime in progress, they blew their whistles and yelled for help --raised a "hue and cry"-- so as to alert citizens who would then arm themselves and respond.

How times have changed!

Nowadays, the politically correct and "socially enlightened" among us would have you believe that providing for your own defense is somehow barbaric, and naturally those that hold political positions will wish to convince the populace that only they can protect the citizenry, only they can be trusted with deadly force, so as to gain and keep the maximum amount of power.

Americans have the right to weapons. Americans have the right of self defense. And finally, as a free and self-governing people, Americans have the duty and responsibility to oppose any government which oversteps their bounds.

-- Cherokee (Cherokee@qtmail.com), December 25, 1999.

AHHHH...the secret to not being invited to mudwrestle...a Remington 870.

Ladies, take note...

R.

-- Roland (nottelling@nowhere.com), December 25, 1999.

FG - Sorry about your "shopping trip". Before I purchased large quantities of shells, a good friend told me I could go to WalMart and buy what I need - no questions asked. It worked. I wasn't able to get the exact shells I wanted, but close. The selection for 12 gauge shells was much larger than for 20 gauge. No one said a word to me as they were right on the shelf to take for myself. When I paid, the register asked for proof I was 18 (I'm 43) so the clerk just gave me look and didn't say a word. I bought a large box of 250 shells that day. God Bless us everyone!

-- Not this time (bang@didit.com), December 25, 1999.

repeat after me SELF DEFENCE NEVER REQUIRES AN APOLOGY!!!

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), December 25, 1999.

Dear Feeling Guilty, I'm glad to see that you are including your son in learning about this. More children are hurt by secrets than anything else. Kids know what's going on around them. If you keep the gun out of reach, but satisfy their curiosity and answer their questions, I believe you will all be safer. I grew up with guns in the house and was taught to use and respect them. A gun is simply a tool. Any tool can kill ya if you're not careful.

-- grannyclampett (don'thave@clue.com), December 25, 1999.

The dummy rounds are called "Snap Caps". Basically, they help protect your gun when you "dry fire" it without live ammo. The reason is that the firing pin is set up to hit something. If you don't have something in there for it to hit, it can break. The snap cap gives it something to hit that won't fire. If you buy several snap caps, you can practice chambering and firing the shotgun several times in a row (I have 5). This isn't necessary, you can get away with a couple and just reload the shotgun with them when empty.

Next, again, to re-iterate, make sure your kids know that the shotgun is not a toy, not to touch it, etc. Don't try to hide the gun from them, because they WILL find it. You don't want to see them as another statistic on the news (tons may die from drunk drivers and so on, but if one stupid kid shoots himself with a gun, top of the news).

-- James Collins (jacollins@thegrid.net), December 25, 1999.

A few notes to add. If you can purchase any videos by John Satterwhite or Jeff Cooper do so! Don't depend on passive mechanical devices to insure gun safety! Teach total gun safety to all of the people in your house, then you don't have to futz with safes, trigger locks and other devices. Assume that every gun is loaded, has a cartridge chambered and is cocked with the safety off (safeties can break). It is safe to walk with a loaded gun, but not with a shell chambered. Don't walk with the barrel down, if you stumble you'll get dirt up the barrel, a potential blown up barrel if a wedge of dirt blocks the barrel.

Basically all firearm rules stem from two basic ideas, 1-the condition of the gun (this includes the position of your hand) and 2-the position of the gun. To expand on this; 1- treat every gun at all times as if it was loaded and ready to fire. 2- Never point a gun's barrel at anything you do not have the right to destroy. These can be spun off to more detailed ideas. 3- If the gun leaves your possesion (even if you put it down and turn away for a second in an empty room), act as if it became loaded, a shell chambered and therefore cocked. Make clearing the gun a HABIT every time you pick it up. What you are looking for here is to build a habit. It should become uncomfortable and unnatural for you to pick up the gun without clearing it. 4- Dertermine PRECISELY what your target is BEFORE you aim the gun. 5- You only release the safety when the gun is aimed. 6- You ONLY put your finger inside the trigger guard when you are ready to fire. 7- Don't trust your safety button, always have the barrel pointed in a safe direction. 8- Just because you are holding the gun, doesn't mean that it is okay to have the barrel pointing where it is not supposed to be pointed. 9 - Never set sown or store a cocked gun (note what the previous poster said about snap caps!), it is bad on the springs and the gun could fall, get bumped, the trigger could tangle with something, the safety could fail. There are many other ways to express gun safety, these are just a few ways. Of course in a combat situtation, some of these need modifying.

Jeff Cooper's books are great, so are Massad Ayoob (sp?). One concept is different levels of preparedness based on the situation, example having your trigger finger; near the trigger guard, in the trigger guard, and on the trigger represent three distinct levels of preparedness which depend the level of threat. Positions of the gun would be another example.

On perceived recoil, invest in a good recoil pad, get at least a chambered rubber pad, or better yet a gel pad. You want to practice so that you become familiar with the gun. Investing in a good buttstock pad and a good shooting jacket witha good shoulder pad (or a strap on unit) is a worthwhile investment. You have made the commitment to protect your offspring, now follow through on that commitment by investing in training.

Another aspect of perceived recoil, does the pull length of the gun with fitted pad fit you? You might need to have a gunsmith cut down the stock to fit a good pad on the stock butt and still have the length from your shoulder to the trigger fit you.

P.S. I have never been in combat, I hope I never am. However, those that do say that they don't even hear, much less feel the gun firing so that if you ever have to actively defend yourself, your body will ignore the unimportant recoil, flash, and report.

-- Ken Seger (kenseger@earthlink.net), December 25, 1999.