I wouldn't put this post down if I didn't believe it myself. A friend of mine whose about as level-headed as it gets (was special forces in Saigon, etc.) overheard a Wisonsin Electric offical say in the barber shop the other day that the official prediction (at least the OTHER official prediction) calls for 25% of homes in Wisconsin to lose power on New Years Eve for ONLY A BRIEF PERIOD OF TIME. I swear to God this is a beleivable comment, coming from a very dependable friend.

-- Daniel Roberts (anon@anon.anon), December 11, 1999

Answers

Somebody help me here..... I don't understand what this guy means? Is this a BITR or TEOTWAWKI? Is 25% of homes in Wisconsin losing power on New Years Eve for ONLY A BRIEF PERIOD OF TIME a BIG deal or a little deal?

Help me?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- Vernon Hale (create@premiernet.net), December 11, 1999.

that would depend on whether or not it was my home in wisconsin

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), December 11, 1999.

Let me just say it gets REAL cold around here in wisconsin around January. That's a very big deal, if it's true.

-- Daniel Roberts (anon@anon.anon), December 11, 1999.

Vernon,

What do you get when you add up 25% in one city, 30% in another city, 50% in another city, 10% in another city, all the way across the continent? Bingo. The numerous cities that are not functioning at full capacity must disconnect from the grid, and eventually the entire grid goes down. After that, as Gary North says, "it doesn't come up." Does it come back up, ever again? "Probably not in our lifetime." The result... depending on the city you live in, you may never have power again. If you are lucky enough to live in a city that does supply power, you will be subject to rationing and rolling brownouts. The End Of Electrical Power As We Know It. (TEEPAWKI)

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 11, 1999.

Would that "brief period of time" be a few hours during the day, a few days out of a week, a few weeks out of a month, a few months out of a year?

-- Birdlady (Birdlady@nest.home), December 11, 1999.

Zoobie - Exactly so - Unless it happens to me or someone I know - What do I care? The Philippines lost electric to 40,000,000 people for a short period of time just the other day. Why should that bother me? It doesn't. Japan had that big earthquake in Kobe. Did it bother me? No. Mt Pinatubo blew, No. Mt St Helens, No

I almost got squished on I-70 by a big 18 wheeler because he was driving too fast for the snowy conditions so he had to bail out on the median. (I drive a Geo Metro) Did that bother me, Yes. So, I ran up to his truck (all traffic was stopped) and confronted him. He said, "Nobody got hurt, did they?" He was probably in his 50s or early 60s and probably had decades of experience. The only thing I could do was call him a newbie, an amateur. Everybody will deal with things in their own way WHEN and IF it happens.

-- Guy Daley (guydaley@bwn.net), December 11, 1999.

Daniel,

We could be right that y2k will be more than a BITR and still be completely nuts. Who knows? There may even be some honest to goodness alcoholics here! In other words, we're probably a subset of what passes for normal in these particular times. Either way, y2k doesn't care who, or what, we are. If you are just today considering that y2k has an unknown potential to cause serious consequences in your life, please...go shopping! Good luck to you and yours.

-- (RUOK@yesiam.com), December 11, 1999.

Guy,

You have hit the nail on the head. It's not a problem until it happens "to you."

-- (Polly@troll.com), December 11, 1999.

Hawk, I think i am finally starting to understand where some of the fear is coming from. You wrote "What do you get when you add up 25% in one city, 30% in another city, 50% in another city, 10% in another city, all the way across the continent? Bingo. and eventually the entire grid goes down. After that, as Gary North says, "it doesn't come up." Does it come back up, ever again? "Probably not in our lifetime." The result... depending on the The numerous cities that are not functioning at full capacity must disconnect from the grid,city you live in, you may never have power again. If you are lucky enough to live in a city that does supply power, you will be subject to rationing and rolling brownouts. The End Of Electrical Power As We Know It. (TEEPAWKI)"

However the fallacy is that you DON'T add up these percentages. If we can believe a second hand conversation overheard by a friend etc... then we still do not add up these percentages. The best estimate would be to apply a weighted average. So on the assumption you have made of 25%, 30%, 50%, 10% that would be an average power loss of 29% per city. I would be interested to learn where you get these numbers from.

I would also like an explanation of why The numerous cities that are not functioning at full capacity must disconnect from the grid. Assuming the power supplier has opened 25% of the cities feeder circuits to drop 25% of consumers, why must they then open the remaining 75% of feeders and disconnect from the grid?

Further, if this scenario did happen, why would the entire grid go down?

And finally, if the entire grid did go down, why would it never come up again in our lifetime?

Malcolm

-- Malcolm Taylor (taylorm@es.co.nz), December 11, 1999.

Malcome,

The answers to your questions can be found on Scary Gary's site. I suggest you go there, and do your OWN research, rather than asking others to do it FOR you...

-- Dennis (djolson@cherco.net), December 11, 1999.

O, Dennis, if this Malcom who speaks is the man who makes light from the underlands, the knowledge he seeks is already known to him.

-- Cloud William (ours@gain.com), December 11, 1999.

Malcolm, I was not trying to say that you just add up those percentages to get 100%, that is ridiculous. What I'm saying is that cumulatively, there is going to be enough of a draw to bring it down.

I'll use the anaalogy of a hydroelectric power system like the hoover damn, with all of the power utilities being the resevoir of water that powers the damn. If you keep subtracting portions of the water for each utility that doesn't function, eventually the water does not flow over the top of the damn and the power stops completely. Getting the turbines spinning again is not as easy as adding a few utilities back to the resevoir individually, because it takes the full force of all of them combined to start it and keep it running again.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 11, 1999.

A friend of mine has a cousin, a stand-up guy, viet-nam vet, etc, who has a girlfriend who knows an guy at an electric company who overheard his bosses boss on a phone call to some guy in Wisconsin who said....

-- Uncle Bob (UNCLB0B@AOL.COM), December 11, 1999.

Hawk, Not true. It is an uban myth that once the grid goes down, it cannot be started again. This was discussed on the Westergaard site in the column on "Powerful ....somethingorother." I'll get the url and post it for us. Starting the grid back up without drawing power from elsewhere is called a "black start." It has been done before (not, of course, the whole grid, but individual power plants).

-- JoseMiami (caris@prodigy.net), December 11, 1999.

Hey Uncle Bob, I know that guy too!!

-- Clyde (clydeblalock@hotmail.com), December 11, 1999.

Jose, guess we'll see soon enough, eh? Did you ever pull 4 spark plugs out of an 8 cylinder engine and try to start it up again? Even if you put the 6th or 7th plug back in, it doesn't work very well.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 11, 1999.

Dennis: On your suggestion, I have just had a quick look through Scary Gary's site, (The first time 've ever even looked at it). Unfortunately the answer to my questions are not obvious. I did find a claim from Gary that some official in Maine did say that if the grid went down twice, and stayed down for 60 days the second time, then it may not come back. but there was no evidence for the claim, and no reason given. Certainly I found no mention of any data on percentages of lost power, nor any reason as to why the grid would go down.

Cloud William: I am indeed the one who is involved in power generation, and you will therefore be aware that I have posted in this forum the reasons why I believe the grid will not go down. I have also described the methods that would be used to black start if the worst happened and there was a cascade failure. Although I have been questioned on some of what I have posted, nothing of what I have said has ever been rebutted by anyone in the industry. I do therefore feel justified in questioning claims such as though made by Hawk, in order that I can follow them back to the source. In doing this I may find something that I have missed, or I may be able to put right some misinformation.

Hawk: Your analogy of a hydro electric power system does not hold water (pardon the pun). It is a false analogy for a number of reasons. First off, once again you are saying that it is cumulative, when in fact that is only part of the case. 25% loss in one city, follwed by 25% loss in another, and so on right across the entire grid, does add up to a 25% loss overall, but why should there be a 25% loss in any city in the first place? The analogy to a hydro system falls down on another fact. When water is drawn out of a dam faster than it is flowing in, the power output from the turbines gets less efficient untill full power is no longer possible. The water does not flow over the top of the dam to produce electricity, it flows through the penstocks, and what water does flow over the top (or down the spillway) was always lost to the system, and could never be used for generation anyway. If the water is drawn down to the point at which the intakesstart to suck air, then the generation must be reduced, but as soon as the level is allowed to increase, then generation can increase to mach inflow and outflow.

If there is a 25% loss of demand overall, then your analogy to a hydro system would require 25% less generation, 25% less water flowing through the turbines, and hence a greater head of water (or electricity) still available. It does not explain why the grid would fail at all.

I would still like an answer to my original questions.

Malcolm

-- Malcolm Taylor (taylorm@es.co.nz), December 11, 1999.

Ok, here it is. It was written by Dick Mills in August 14, 98. The title of the article is "

Another Myth, A Black Grid Cant Be Restarted"

You can read the original document at: http://www.wbn.com/y2ktimebomb/PP/RC/dm9832.htm Dick Mills designed software for power plants, turbine controls and power systems for 30 years. He says that the grid CAN be "black started," despite uniformed rumors to the contrary. This is not intended to criticize Hawk's comments or anyone else's but it is an important point. Below is a quote from the article.

"I remember one of the legendary stories from The Great Northeast Blackout of 1965. At one plant, the operators had to burn office furniture to start a fire in the furnace, to boil the water, to make the steam, to spin the turbine, to turn the generator, to make power. Amazing. The point is that they did it. That plant black-started without a diesel generator. We plant engineers love stories like that. The rest of you geeks giggle about lesser things like the post- blackout baby boom." -- Dick Mills, August 14th, 98.

-- JoseMiami (caris@prodigy.net), December 11, 1999.

Starting it up on a black start. Interesting concept. Starting up an individual plant with "no outside power". If there is no outside power, if the plant is out of fuel, how is the fuel going to get there if there is no outside power? If the whole grid is down, transportation will be a joke, communications will too.

On the other hand if the grid collapse happens soon enough, before on-site stores of fuel are gone, or later if power from the hydro and other types of plants that use on-site fuel can be used to boot-strap the system and keep critical supplies flowing, then maybe we have a chance.

The only other choice is to cut off the sections that are deemed temporarily expendale, cut off the down generators, and just supply areas and industries that can be handled by the actual generation and delivery capacity. This sounds more like what the original post was talking aout. Are we actually able to shed load quickly like this?

If the grid as a whole collapses, a vast majority of people and industries will be down and out for a totally indeterminate time.

-- tree (thetrees@bigfoot.com), December 11, 1999.

"Life will find a way."

Righton, Jose!

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), December 11, 1999.

Thats true. I didn't say that the grid won't shut down. I was responding to a comment by Hawk that it can't be started up again "in our lifetime." That is simply not true. I agree that there may be cascading problems in other areas and that there could be a temporary black out. In my opinion, the greater problem to worrry about out is oil production and import. THAT could be a serious long- term problem!

-- JoseMiami (caris@prodigy.net), December 11, 1999.

Jose, yes of course anything is possible, and I being generally an optimist and a believer in man's ingenuity, would be the last person to say that I think it is impossible. However, this being a situation without precedent, I think it is going to be the biggest challenge ever to the electric industry.

Malcom, you ask why I think the grid will go down because of disconnections by some utilities. Since you started using details to discredit the Hoover dam analogy, I will refer instead to the more simplistic car engine analogy. In order for the flow of energy within the grid to be maintained, it relies on the "balance" of the supportive sources, like the automobile engine relies on the balance of the forces from 8 cylinders. When you disconnect one spark plug wire, the engine contimues to run, but roughly and inefficiently. When you disconnect two it becomes very unbalanced, is likely to stall, and not likely to start and run again for any extended period. It is my belief that we are going to have at least the equivalent of the two spark plug disconnect from the engine of the entire power grid, and starting again is possible but very difficult. I think Gary's conclusion was based on the idea that some of the necessary parts within the system would no longer be available, and thus the entire structure of some utilities might have to be modified, and this could take years.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 11, 1999.

I think one of Gary North's positions was that at some point the system would fry the components and wires to the point they would no longer be able to be used again.

-- gambler (scotanna@arosnet.com), December 11, 1999.

Hawk, I don't mean to sound like I'm getting at you, but I work at a group of power stations, and one of my concerns is that we might have missed something. I have helped test and remediate our systems, and have carried out some of the engineering calculations on our black start procedures. So when I read comments like you wrote, I naturally want to check them out. It may be that you do have some information that is vital, and that we have missed, or it may be that you are just passing on an unsubstaniated belief. Could I ask you to read Generation and Distribution 101 and then comment on what part or parts of the electrical system are likely to fail and why?

Malcolm

-- Malcolm Taylor (taylorm@es.co.nz), December 11, 1999.

And it all started in the BARBER-SHOP forum......wheeee..

-- Tommy Rogers (Been there@Just a Thought.com), December 11, 1999.

Malcolm,

I never said that I thought any parts would fail, I was telling you what Gary North said, remember? Again, rather than wasting my time and energy to do any more research, and since I find this subject of electrical power one of the more boring ones, I'd rather just wait and see what happens. Again, I'm not positive, but I think Gary was mainly concerned about embedded chips (which could fail if they are date sensitive, and could be difficult to replace) and, as "gambler" said, possibly motors burning up from being overloaded. I'll admit, I don't know details about this industry, but this also affords me a "big picture" perspective which may be difficult for insiders to see because of their tunnel vision.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 11, 1999.

Yo! HAWK!! and ANY ONE ELSE interested in how a grid is assembled, GO READ THE LINK!! AFTER reading the link we can have inteligent conversation.

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), December 11, 1999.

Guy Daley. Did it bother you when we removed half your brain?

-- Alien Surgeon (Alien@large.com), December 11, 1999.

My sistser-in-law's boyfriend hales from Wisconsin. When posed this scenario, he responded - Winter in Wisconsin? 25% is reasonable for a brief period of time.

-- Lurking on the sidelines` (Alw@ys lurking.com), December 11, 1999.

Yo! CHUCK!!

As I said, not interested. If the power is not going to go out, fine. If it is going to go out, I'm prepared and I'm not losing any sleep over it. Expect the worst, and hope for the best. Time will tell... very soon.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 11, 1999.

Sheeeeeesh !!!!! What a lot of speculation !!!! At this point, they've done about all they can in the power industry to avert problems, but no one knows what will happen since nothing like Y2K has ever presented itself. So, now, we all get to wait and see. Then, if we get power back, and the internet is up and working, we can all post our *real* experiences....which will be far more interesting than speculation.

-- Kenin Marble (kenin17@yahoo.com), December 11, 1999.

Hawk, read the story of the fox and the grapes. Since Malcom kicked your dick in the dirt, you suddenly don't want to expend the time? Argue a subject that you know about, or learn about this one. The grid stays up on Jan 1. Get over it. Argue oil imports or trainloads of coal on sidings, but don't go away pouting, saying "well those grapes were sour anyway".

-- Fox (Aesop@fables.org), December 12, 1999.

From WEPCO's Y2k page (No, I'm not a shill, but I thing they've done a pretty good job):

Is your year 2000 work completed?

Yes. We are ready to continue delivering service into the new year. We continue to work on non-critical systems and equipment, and are enhancing existing contingency plans.

What is considered non-critical?

Non-critical systems and equipment are items that do not impact our ability to maintain safe service to our customers. One example would be a fax machine that prints 1900 rather than 2000. Such machines will be replaced over time but do not warrant immediate replacement because they continue to function well other than the year printed at the top of the page.

Have you checked all of your embedded chips?

Yes. Of the nearly 130,000 embedded chips in our equipment, less than 2 percent involved dates. Most problems would have been nuisance errors in monitoring and reporting devices. Although some of the chips could have caused faulty data, these devices do not affect primary functions required to provide electric, gas or steam service. These are being remediated and tested...

What contingency plans are being made for year 2000?

Because of storms and other unplanned events, we successfully implement contingency plans on a regular basis. Recently, utilities have been concentrating on developing contingency plans and conducting drills that cover a wide range of scenarios. Considerable effort is being devoted to contingency planning not because we expect system failures, but because energy services are so critical to the communities we serve. Wisconsin Electric is taking every reasonable precaution to maintain reliable service and to minimize the extent and duration of any disruptions that may occur for any reason. The overall electric industry Y2K response is coordinated by North American Electric Reliability Council (NERC). Contingency plans were developed and exercised under NERC's direction. On April 9, we participated in a NERC drill to test backup communication systems. On Sept.8-9, we participated in a NERC drill to test operations. Both drills were successful, and no date related problems were found. We also have conducted a number of internal exercises to test our contingency plans.

What are you doing to assess year 2000 readiness of your suppliers?

We have completed our inventory and assessment of our 140 critical suppliers to determine the likelihood of their readiness to support our business in 2000. We continue to maintain contact with these critical suppliers.

What is the level of readiness of utilities in the region?

As members of the Mid-American Interconnected Network (MAIN) and Mid America Power Pool (MAPP), the Wisconsin utilities do not expect any major outages or power grid failures due to Y2K. The likelihood of electric power failures due to Y2K is very remote--less than the chances of a power outage due to severe weather or other cause unrelated to any Y2K bug.

If a Y2K-induced outage occurs in Wisconsin, it is likely to be isolated and of relatively short duration due to the extensive preparations and precautionary operating postures being implemented. To be well prepared for Y2K, Wisconsin utilities are employing a multi-layered approach, consistent with the NERC "defense in depth" Y2K strategy.

MAIN reports indicate the comprehensive preparation and contingency plans of the region's utilities will have them well positioned for the transition to the year 2000.

Should customers buy generators as a precaution?

Although we anticipate being ready to continue customer operations and service into 2000, outages sometimes occur because of storms and equipment damage. While our response time on outage restoration is among the best in the industry, some customers choose to have generators available for power while repairs are made. Any purchase of a generator should be based on the greater likelihood of storm outages rather than what we believe is the less likely possibility of a Year 2000 outage. Customers who use generators under any circumstances are reminded to carefully follow operating instructions to avoid backfeeding electricity into distribution systems believed to be de-energized, which can be a deadly situation for utility workers.

-- Steve (hartsman@ticon.net), December 12, 1999.

Hey Fox, mind your own goddam business! I wasn't even arguing with anyone, just stating what I thought would happen and what Gary North said. If my dick is in the dirt, then it sounds like yours is in your mouth - jerkoff.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 12, 1999.

FWIW, I should add that I've heard from several reliable sources that a significant number of WEPCO employees have made recent generator purchases.

Doesn't mean anything, of course...

-- Steve (hartsman@ticon.net), December 12, 1999.

Malcolm--

So there we have it then, don't we. Unequivocal testimony from an expert that under no circumstances will the power be out anywhere. COOOOOOLLL!!!! Thanks Malcolm...but I'm still having that nagging little voice telling me to err on the side of prudence.

Glad to hear that all your firewalls and backdoors are covered. I've been worrying that this industry would be the hardest hit. Or at least hit upon. I'll sure be glad when this mess is over with.

Respectfully

Michael

-- Michael (mikeymac@uswest.net), December 12, 1999.

Michael,

Many thanks for the kind thoughts. I do believe that the electricity industry will come through in better shape than almost any other sector. It is well prepared, and with backup systems, reserve generation, and well prepared contingency plans. But even so, there are no guarantees. I have not gone out and bought a generator, but I have made sure that I have a spare battery for the torch, and a supply of candles.

Our company finished its Y2K preparations 2 months ago, but even now we are still testing and rechecking continuously. Although we are sure that we have found everything that could be affected there is almost certain to be some timy thing hidden away that will spring a suprise when we least expect it. One examole of a suprise we had recently is a small program on a stand-alone PC that runs a batch file every hour and brings in important data from remote sites and displays it for the operators. Our tests showed that it would OK after the roll-over, and the supplier of the software also believed that it was compliant. However, the programmer who wrote the software died recently, and while cleaning out his desk someone found the source code that he used. Apparently on looking over the code he noticed a peculiarity, and now the supplier has contacted us and said they can't promise that there are no date issues in the display part of the software. They are supplying us with new software tomorrow (Monday NZ time) that will supply the data in a new format, and I have just one week left to redesign our applications that use the data. Its not a highest priority system in that if it failed there would be no loss of generation, but there would be a slight loss in efficiency.

This is the type of embedded system that is common in electricity generation. Few show stoppers, but there could be some annoyances. So I can't promise that the power will stay on, but I will be very supreised if it doesn't.

Malcolm

-- Malcolm Taylor (taylorm@es.co.nz), December 12, 1999.

Michael,

Many thanks for the kind thoughts. I do believe that the electricity industry will come through in better shape than almost any other sector. It is well prepared, and with backup systems, reserve generation, and well prepared contingency plans. But even so, there are no guarantees. I have not gone out and bought a generator, but I have made sure that I have a spare battery for the torch, and a supply of candles.

Our company finished its Y2K preparations 2 months ago, but even now we are still testing and rechecking continuously. Although we are sure that we have found everything that could be affected there is almost certain to be some timy thing hidden away that will spring a suprise when we least expect it. One examole of a suprise we had recently is a small program on a stand-alone PC that runs a batch file every hour and brings in important data from remote sites and displays it for the operators. Our tests showed that it would OK after the roll-over, and the supplier of the software also believed that it was compliant. However, the programmer who wrote the software died recently, and while cleaning out his desk someone found the source code that he used. Apparently on looking over the code he noticed a peculiarity, and now the supplier has contacted us and said they can't promise that there are no date issues in the display part of the software. They are supplying us with new software tomorrow (Monday NZ time) that will supply the data in a new format, and I have just one week left to redesign our applications that use the data. Its not a highest priority system in that if it failed there would be no loss of generation, but there would be a slight loss in efficiency.

This is the type of embedded system that is common in electricity generation. Few show stoppers, but there could be some annoyances. So I can't promise that the power will stay on, but I will be very suprised if it doesn't.

Malcolm

-- Malcolm Taylor (taylorm@es.co.nz), December 12, 1999.

Sysops: Sorry, I didn't mean to post that previous message twice, Could you delete one of them please.

Thanks

Malcolm

-- Malcolm Taylor (taylorm@es.co.nz), December 12, 1999.

Michael, you said......

...a small program on a stand-alone PC that runs a batch file every hour and brings in important data from remote sites and displays it for the operators...This is the type of embedded system that is common in electricity generation....

I believe there is something very wrong with this? Or were you just teehee teehee joking?

My elec. provider issued Y2k Ready Statements.................100% Ready....but, If the 300 or so critical business partners have problems we cannot guarrantee a supply (no mention of assesments regarding compliancy on those critical vendors).

I also noticed in the above posted interview with the Wisc. Elec...

What are you doing to assess year 2000 readiness of your suppliers?

We have completed our inventory and assessment of our 140 critical suppliers to determine the likelihood of their readiness to support our business in 2000. We continue to maintain contact with these critical suppliers.

Gee, that eye-opening statement makes me feel warm & fuzzy........

My New Years Toast to You....."A toast to Malcom Taylor...hoping your right...

My elec. provider issued Y2k Ready Statements.................100% Ready....but, If the 300 or so critical business partners have problems we cannot guarrantee a supply.

I also noticed in the above posted interview with the Wisc. Elec...they were

-- CHEERS (karlacalif@aol.com), December 12, 1999.

Maclcom, that cut&paste mess was for you....

excuse the botched formatting, I should never post before 5:30 am and first cup of coffee.................

-- justlurkingnow((blush)) (karlacalif@aol.com), December 12, 1999.

Cheers,

No I was not joking. We do have a number of stand alone PCs that perform specific functions. The one I described is used to gather weather and river flow information from 29 data points at 15 remote sites. As each site has to be dialed up by modem, and interogated for recent data, it makes sense to have a stand-alone unit do this task. The data collectors out at the sites are all compliant, as is the PC which does all the data gathering. And we thought that the program that displays the data was also compliant, but we are not taking any chances.

Malcolm

-- Malcolm Taylor (taylorm@es.co.nz), December 12, 1999.

Hey Fox, mind your own goddam business! I wasn't even arguing with anyone, just stating what I thought would happen and what Gary North said. If my dick is in the dirt, then it sounds like yours is in your mouth - jerkoff.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 12, 1999.

Hey, well said, Hawk. So as I understand it; you can't defend Gary North's statements but you espouse them as gospel. You are slapped around by an insider who has more credentials for running a grid than you have for running shit down your pantleg, and the best you can come up with is 'Well that's what Gary said'. Hawk, (@) I used to think you were worth listening to, but it would seem that the impending Y2K crisis/non-crisis is addling your brain. Since your post are right on this thread for anyone to see, why spin your stance to say you weren't arguing? Of course you were, and you lost on a TKO. And 'jerkoff'? Go read some bathroom graffiti and come up with a real insult at least, you sperm-guzzling piece of dogshit. See, like that! Yours in Christ, fox

-- fox (poorhawk@whiny.org), December 12, 1999.

wow! we are getting a little testy aren't we?

Fox, I especially liked your sign off, "in Christ." I guess we can follow Christ and still be "real."

Actually, I have noticed that I have been having a number of symptoms of deppression and burn-out this week, to the point that my church has given me some time of to recup. I think this issue and all of the assorted unknowns is probably having a deeper emotional effect on all of us (doomer, pollies, and everything in between) than we realize. I suggest for those of us who are prepared that we take some time off in the next two or three weeks, pray, fast and rest; building up our mental, emotional and spiritual resources for whatever comes. Just a thought.

-- JoseMiami (caris@prodigy.net), December 12, 1999.